What Are Your Purchasing Intentions Regarding VGA?

[Jonathon Watkins]

OK, as a follow-up to the VGA poll <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=249052&sid=da217f8cd5c7d96eb38856e168137e53">yesterday</a> (which seems to show that we have a large number of early adaptors reading PPCT, surprise, surprise :wink:), the question today is as follows: How important is VGA in Pocket PCs to you?<br /><br />The reason behind this polls is that we got an email from a reader who said that they were "kinda disappointed at how many of the rumoured SE devices are QVGA and that only a couple are VGA. I'm wondering at how much of difference it makes in people's purchase and I thought that a poll like this might shed a little light on the importance (or lack thereof) for VGA."<br /><br />So, regardless of what your present Pocket PC's resolution is, what are your current plans regarding buying future Pocket PCs with VGA and why? Discuss. :dilemma:

[isilver]

I have never seen a VGA display screen. I have also never read any articles on the main differences between QVGA and VGA. So I don't think it matters which type of resolution I get.

[jlp]

As of now just about 80% of people want VGA in their PDA; wow, impressive 8O

For me I want W-VGA coz I want this OQO dreamie thingie :way to go: 8)

[Tierran]

Woo, I'm the only person who voted I'm getting QVGA for my next PDA because I want a cheaper unit! Dell X30 here I come :lol:

[SeanH]

Voted “My next PPC will have VGA, if it's not much larger than QVGA units.”

The perfect PDA for me be would be the size of a 4150 with the following

Intel PXA270 624MHz
4” 480X640 Display (it can fit in the 4150 form factor)
128MB of SDRAM
Bluetooth
WiFi
4 bit SDIO (it’s built into the PXA270)
No CF (there is not room for CF in a PDA the size of the 4150 and 2GB cards will be out Q3 04)

With Bluetooth there is no need for IRDA or USB any more. Just a power connector would be great.

Sean

[Pony99CA]

I said I'd get VGA if the price was reasonable. Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:

Also, size isn't as much of a concern for me as price -- I carry an iPAQ 5550 with a dual CF card sleeve. :-D

Finally, VGA is a lot less important to me than the ability to switch between portrait and landscape modes without a soft reset; I don't think VGA will be that important to me. However, in the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I haven't seen a VGA Pocket PC.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

With Bluetooth there is no need for IRDA or USB any more.
No need for USB? I guess that's true -- if 723 kbps or so (instead of 12 mbps) is sufficient throughput for you.

Steve

[Zack Mahdavi]

Voted “My next PPC will have VGA, if it's not much larger than QVGA units.”

The perfect PDA for me be would be the size of a 4150 ...

Sean, I completely agree with you. I really want a VGA screen, but I want something that will be about the size of a 4150, not much larger. I carry around my Pocket PC every day in my hip pocket and couldn't afford carrying around a PDA that's larger.

[Sven Johannsen]

I said I'd get VGA if the price was reasonable. Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:

Really? I voted that way because there I am not planning to upgrade unless there is some significant improvement on what I have today. That would include more RAM and VGA. Without those two items, I would be remaining with the status quo. (disregarding SE of course, which I fully expect to be available as an upgrade). Excessive size and price may stop me from getting the new PPC altogether, but it won't drive me to a new QVGA device.

Depending where I'm going, I do carry a laptop or tablet , BTW, and my PPC :wink:

[SeanH]

No need for USB? I guess that's true -- if 723 kbps or so (instead of 12 mbps) is sufficient throughput for you.
I understand USB is 12Mb, Bluetooth is 723Kb, and WiFi (802.11b) is 11Mb. I have not personal seen a difference with ActiveSync using USB or Bluetooth, there both slow. When I use WiFi to sync it’s a lot faster. I do not know why that happens. I would be happy with Bluetooth Sync speeds for most items. If I need to move big files I would use WiFi or a PC based USB SD card reader and put the file on the SD card. ActiveSync crashes when you send files over 200MB.

Sean

[Jacob]

Only price and size is right. Those would have to be the biggest questions.

It ain't a pocket pc if it doesn't fit in my pocket.

[Gerard]

Once again, the limitations on reasonable questions in a poll leaves some in the cold. I had to 'lie' as Steve so graciously put in, as I will pay a fairly hefty price for a really cleverly made Pocket PC provided it has VGA and both SD and CF II slots, and a large screen. VGA on anything less than 4" is going to be hard to read, for at least a sizeable portion of available filetypes and document viewers/editors. Constantly resizing fonts isn't a proper solution. I'd rather have a 5" screen, on a device which may or may not be considered pocketable depending on the size of one's pockets. A bigger screen offers a great web experience, easier document formatting, better image/movie viewing, and better quality viewing for more serious graphics work. A PPC with a stylus makes a fine graphics pad, but if the thing is just too small, zooming in and out constantly becomes the norm. That's just frustrating, even on my current X5 Dell.

I'd not pay over $1000 USD again, as I did with my old Casio EG-800, but up to around that price I'd seriously consider if the features merited the cost. Expansion options, connectivity, and most importantly a dynamite screen, coupled to a killer battery, and I'm a happy camper. Right now I've got about 7 hours Wi-Fi connected time with my Dell's Mugen 3800mAh battery, and life's quite a lot better for it. Mobility definitely enhanced. Carry a laptop around for the bigger screen, Steve? Or even a tablet? No way. Just too clunky, too fast to run out of juice, and too slow to boot. A honkin' big PPC, that's the way to go, for some of us at least.

I'm thinking the iPAQ 4700 looks a tasty treat, but who knows what else is coming along by the time that hits the streets?

[Pony99CA]

I said I'd get VGA if the price was reasonable. Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:
Really? I voted that way because there I am not planning to upgrade unless there is some significant improvement on what I have today. That would include more RAM and VGA. Without those two items, I would be remaining with the status quo. (disregarding SE of course, which I fully expect to be available as an upgrade).
Many of the new WM 2K3 SE Pocket PCs will have 624 MHz processors, more than 64 MB RAM, dual wireless and/or dual slots. Granted, dual wireless and dual slots aren't new, but how many Pocket PCs today have both? I wouldn't call a faster processor, a new operating system, more RAM and possibly more slots or more wireless options "status quo".

Excessive size and price may stop me from getting the new PPC altogether, but it won't drive me to a new QVGA device.
Are you saying that you wouldn't consider a QVGA machine, even with a 624 MHz processor, Windows Mobile 2003 SE (so on-the-fly portrait and landscape switching), 256 MB RAM and triple wireless (Bluetooth, WiFi and cellular)? :-D

Steve

[socrates63]

Voted “My next PPC will have VGA, if it's not much larger than QVGA units.”

The perfect PDA for me be would be the size of a 4150 ...

Sean, I completely agree with you.
I concur as well.

VGA is really It for me. For my next PPC, no one feature matters more to me than VGA, not even the orientation switch promised in the next OS version. But of course, VGA is no good if the unit turns about to the size of a subnotebook. And if the price is above $400, then I'm out, and I'll stay with my 2215.

I used a Sony Clie SJ33, considered a low to mid-range Palm, last year, and I was completely sold on its 320x320 screen. Even at small font sizes, everything was legible and very crisp. I'm a sucker for eye candy and nicely rendered screen fonts (I can recall the days of adopting Adobe Type Manager for Windows 3 and investing quite a bit for the PostScript typefaces). QVGA doesn't quite make the cut.

[cmlpreston]

Really? I voted that way because there I am not planning to upgrade unless there is some significant improvement on what I have today. That would include more RAM and VGA. Without those two items, I would be remaining with the status quo. (disregarding SE of course, which I fully expect to be available as an upgrade). Excessive size and price may stop me from getting the new PPC altogether, but it won't drive me to a new QVGA device.


Could not have put that better myself. As far as I am concerned, there is no device on the market, other than the e800, that is significantly different than my H3870 - assuming one doesn't require more RAM, wifi or phone capabilities, I guess.

To me, screen resolution is the numero uno reason for upgrading, and seeing so few new devices with VGA is extremely disappointing. QVGA should be releagated to history, as are VGA desktop monitors. I don't see anyone whinging that they still want to by a VGA monitor for their pc because they are cheaper.

cmlp

[Pony99CA]

Carry a laptop around for the bigger screen, Steve? Or even a tablet? No way. Just too clunky, too fast to run out of juice, and too slow to boot. A honkin' big PPC, that's the way to go, for some of us at least.
I know, Gerard. I was just making the point that "regardless of size & price" is a fairly ridiculous thing. I doubt anybody would consider a VGA Pocket PC that cost $2000 and weighed two pounds, but I thought the way I said it would get more response. :-D

Steve

[nosmohtac]

Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:


Steve

I'm not a liar Steve, and I voted that way. :wink: I too carry a 5550, with either a dual CF sleeve, or a PC card exp.pack. When I chose the poll option, I don't mean that I'll pay upwards of $1000 for a VGA PPC. I assume that that option meant that I would be willing to pay what top of the line PDA's have sold for in the past.

[azhiker]

Unlike many who write in these forums, I have had only one PDA (Toshiba E-310) for two years now. It has worked flawlessly. I am spoiled by the thin and light. So if there is a VGA model similar in thin and light, like say a VGA version of my E-310 or the HP 4150, with wifi and SD slot only. I will buy it. Otherwise there is no reason to replace my E-310 unless it dies.

Reliability is more important as fancy screens!

[surur]

There was one option missing:

My next PDA will be QVGA because thats what the MPx will be :(

My next PDA will definitely be the MPx, and I am making many compromises (memory, VGA, processor speed, which will all be downgrades from my XDA 2) because the overall package has such great functionality.

So sometimes the killer device does not have all your specs, and you have to get it anyway :(

Surur

[dilta]

I think the only thing that really matters when it comes to the VGA Pocket PC is the build-in FULL keyboard. Why do you need a VGA screen? play games? for watching movies? I don't think so. Actually for multimedia application, QVGA is currently quite enough, the difference of visual quality between VGA and QVGA will not be convincible for the mass adoption of the paradigm shift from QVGA to VGA.

In my opinion, the main reason to shift from QVGA to VGA is to process more information and make your handheld more useful in your daily life not only by utilizing a new screen with higher resolution but also leveraging the handy FULL keyboard to support the need for information processing. (the software should be more powerful, too.) Without a FULL keyboard and more powerful softwares,(like full featured Word &amp; Excel even Powerpoint) the VGA screen will be less attractive to me and vice versa.

[Stephen Beesley]

No need for USB? I guess that's true -- if 723 kbps or so (instead of 12 mbps) is sufficient throughput for you.
I understand USB is 12Mb, Bluetooth is 723Kb, and WiFi (802.11b) is 11Mb. I have not personal seen a difference with ActiveSync using USB or Bluetooth, there both slow. When I use WiFi to sync it’s a lot faster. I do not know why that happens. I would be happy with Bluetooth Sync speeds for most items. If I need to move big files I would use WiFi or a PC based USB SD card reader and put the file on the SD card. ActiveSync crashes when you send files over 200MB.

Sean

I believe (and I am sure to be corrected if I am wrong :D ) that the speed issue with activesync using usb and BT is to do with the software itself and the way it uses the connection. The great thing about usb would be using usb peripherals - presuming of course that drivers are actually written.

As for VGA I am pretty sure that my next PDA will be VGA (and probably a 4inc screen) - I want the extra screen real estate for note taking etc. Size is not really an issue, I used to carry a Newton with me just about everywhere and I cannot see any PPC getting to that size!

Price is, of course, more of an issue. I am not going to go out and spend as much on a PDA as on a laptop, but I do not mind paying a premium for VGA.

[Pony99CA]

I think the only thing that really matters when it comes to the VGA Pocket PC is the build-in FULL keyboard.
By "full keyboard", I assume you mean a larger SIP keyboard, not a physical keyboard.

However, are you sure there will be such a thing? The SIP keyboard in landscape mode seems to be exactly the same, even though there is more room on the sides for additional keys. (See the Windows Mobile 2003 SE review (http://www.brighthand.com/article/Brighthand_Review_Windows_Mobile_SE) at Brighthand for a picture. Unfortunately, they couldn't test VGA, so there were no pictures of the SIP in VGA.)

While a full SIP keyboard would be cool, I doubt it's the only thing that matters. In fact, this is the first time I've even heard somebody mention it.

Steve

[Jonathon Watkins]

Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:

I'm not a liar Steve, and I voted that way. :wink: I too carry a 5550, with either a dual CF sleeve, or a PC card exp.pack. When I chose the poll option, I don't mean that I'll pay upwards of $1000 for a VGA PPC. I assume that that option meant that I would be willing to pay what top of the line PDA's have sold for in the past.

Steve, as other have pointed out, we are talking about Pocket PCs here. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Nosmohtac has got it exactly right in his reasonable and correct assumptions. We've not out to destruct test the English language here, just to ask a few questions to get some idea of what people think.

Guys, polls are there to answer specific questions. Very rarely will *everyone* be able to participate in answering poll questions. That isn't the intentions of polls. I.E. there will just about always be people that are left out of poll responses, and there is nothing wrong with that. Yes, you could keep adding questions to include *Every* possibility, but then the poll would just about unusable as it would be so large. :?

VGA is a newish areas for Pocket PCs, which is why I thought it would be reasonable to get some idea of it's potential popularity and to see what folk's opinions were.

[dh]

Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:

Wait one minute, Mr. Steve! :bad-words:
I voted for VGA at any price and already voted with my hard earned money when I bought my VGA equiped C860. What's scarey is that Sharp are rumoured to be developing a new model with BT/WiFi, the new faster processor and 256MB RAM and ROM. Sounds expensive though, maybe a wait for an OQO or FlipStart would make more sense.

By the way, I agree with you on switching from landscape to portrait without a reset. THe Zaurus does this on the fly which is a great feature. I believe that WM2003SE switches without resetting as well.

[Stephen Beesley]

Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:

Wait one minute, Mr. Steve! :bad-words:
I voted for VGA at any price and already voted with my hard earned money when I bought my VGA equiped C860. What's scarey is that Sharp are rumoured to be developing a new model with BT/WiFi, the new faster processor and 256MB RAM and ROM. Sounds expensive though, maybe a wait for an OQO or FlipStart would make more sense.

By the way, I agree with you on switching from landscape to portrait without a reset. THe Zaurus does this on the fly which is a great feature. I believe that WM2003SE switches without resetting as well.

Okay so my next PDA is definately going to be VGA - but now I am wondering whether it is going to be a Pocket PC.... :devilboy:

[Pony99CA]

Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:
Steve, as other have pointed out, we are talking about Pocket PCs here. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Nosmohtac has got it exactly right in his reasonable and correct assumptions. We've not out to destruct test the English language here, just to ask a few questions to get some idea of what people think.
As I mentioned earlier, it was an attempt to be humorous (note the :lol: which should have been a clue), while at the same time pointing out that "regardless of size or price" is kind of silly. Besides, I love to play with words, and that seemed ripe for the picking. :twisted:

If you don't think you could spend $2000 on a Pocket PC, guess again. I spent $650 on my iPAQ 3870, $200 on my dual PC Card sleeve, $250 on my GPS sleeve, $150 on my WiFi PC card, $170 on my 512 MB CF card, $100 on my 512 MB SD card and $50 on my Microkeyboard. That's $1570 right there!

Imagine a "dream" Pocket PC with all of that built-in plus VGA and GSM/GPRS in a nice-sized package and $2000 might not be so far-fetched. But would anybody really pay that much?

Now, can we get off my little jape at the poll and move on to the real issue of whether people really want VGA? Please... :roll:

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Anybody who said they'd get VGA regardless of size or price is a liar, otherwise they'd already be carrying laptops or tablet PCs. :lol:

I voted for VGA at any price and already voted with my hard earned money when I bought my VGA equiped C860.
How much did you spend? I saw one price of about $849, which is a lot, but not totally out there.

Now, would you have paid $2000 for it? If not, perhaps you should have voted "My next PPC will have VGA, if it does not cost much more than QVGA units." At least "does not cost much more" is subject to interpretation by the reader; "regardless of price" really isn't. That's all I was trying to point out -- as I said before.

By the way, I agree with you on switching from landscape to portrait without a reset. THe Zaurus does this on the fly which is a great feature. I believe that WM2003SE switches without resetting as well.
It's supposed to. Let's just hope doing so won't break too many applications. I think landscape is more likely to render programs unusable than VGA (which at worst should make programs ugly or unreadably small).

Steve

[Ryan Joseph]

To be honest, price is the biggest factor I consider when looking at a new PPC. If I can't afford it, the specs don't matter.

So far, the VGA equipped devices have been considerably more expensive than the QVGA ones. If that remains the case, I won't be buying a VGA device.

That being said, I got to hold an e805 the other day and compare the resolution with mine. Man, what a difference! The VGA screen was so much clearer and sharper!

Sooooo...if VGA is affordable, I'll definately go for it! :mrgreen:

[Jonathon Watkins]

To be honest, price is the biggest factor I consider when looking at a new PPC. If I can't afford it, the specs don't matter.

So far, the VGA equipped devices have been considerably more expensive than the QVGA ones. If that remains the case, I won't be buying a VGA device.

That being said, I got to hold an e805 the other day and compare the resolution with mine. Man, what a difference! The VGA screen was so much clearer and sharper!

Sooooo...if VGA is affordable, I'll definately go for it! :mrgreen:

I'm with you here Ryaninc. I voted that I wanted VGA, as long as it wasn't significantly more expensive that equivalent QVGA units.

I guess the manufactures are thinking that VGA will be a 'premium' product with premium prices. I think this poll shows that demand for VGA will be quite a bit higher than they believe. So, the question is, when will a decently affordable PPC with VGA be released? I know we only have preliminary specs and prices for the upcoming units, so till will be very interesting to see what the final specs'/prices will be.

Dell have really set the benchmark with cheep W2003SE devices with the X30. Lets see how the others measure up....

[SeanH]

The great thing about usb would be using usb peripherals - presuming of course that drivers are actually written.
The new Intel processor shipping in all these new PDA's has USB Host/Client and USB OTG (On the Go). Having those features are great for non PDA Industrial apps. The IntelPXA270 can be used in a Kiosk or (POS) Point of Sale with a USB camera, USB Printer, USB Ethernet, USB credit card reader and many other misc USB peripherals. On a small PDA, I can not think of one USB peripheral that you could not use Bluetooth for. Bluetooth on the PDA is being used for Keyboards, (DUN) Dial Up Networking over a cell, printing, bar code scanners, GPS units, wireless headsets and many more that are in full production today. Can you name a common sense peripheral for a PDA that you could not use Bluetooth for assuming the PDA has built in WiFi?

Sean

[ppcinfo]

When discussing size different, are we talking about screen diagonal size or the overall thickness of the device? I have an iPAQ 1945 which I love because of the thinness. I wouldn't mind a larger screen for a VGA device, but I wouldn't want it to be thicker than my 1945.

For price, I also purchased my 1945 because it was one of the cheapest PPCs available. I would indeed pay more for a VGA device, but my limit would be $400 US or so.

[Pony99CA]

The great thing about usb would be using usb peripherals - presuming of course that drivers are actually written.
On a small PDA, I can not think of one USB peripheral that you could not use Bluetooth for. Bluetooth on the PDA is being used for Keyboards, (DUN) Dial Up Networking over a cell, printing, bar code scanners, GPS units, wireless headsets and many more that are in full production today. Can you name a common sense peripheral for a PDA that you could not use Bluetooth for assuming the PDA has built in WiFi?
Sure -- hard disks, CD and DVD drives. There are portable hard drives out there; why not be able to hook them up to your Pocket PC? Why not have a CD RW that you could install software from or burn MP3 CDs on?

I don't think those are any less "common sense" than having a printer with your Pocket PC.

Steve

[Jonathon Watkins]

When discussing size different, are we talking about screen diagonal size or the overall thickness of the device? I have an iPAQ 1945 which I love because of the thinness. I wouldn't mind a larger screen for a VGA device, but I wouldn't want it to be thicker than my 1945.

Size is however you want to interpret it. If thickness (depth) is your most important size, then that's what you vote for, ditto for hight, width etc. We can't cover *every* option in polls.

I personally would be OK with a unit a bit larger than my X5 (e.g. the e805), though not much larger than that.

[SeanH]

I have an iPAQ 1945 which I love because of the thinness. I wouldn't mind a larger screen for a VGA device, but I wouldn't want it to be thicker than my 1945.
I agree VGA is nice but it needs to be small. The 4150 and the 1945 are about the same size here are the spec’s.

HP iPAQ h1945 - 4.46 x 2.75 x 0.5 in (1133 x 69.8 x 12.8 mm)
HP iPAQ h4150 - 4.47 in x 2.78 in x 0.5 in (113.6 mm x 70.6 mm x 13.5 mm)

This is from a post a few weeks ago.

It would be great if HP kept the form factor of the 4150 but added a 4” VGA display. The following can work:
(Top to bottom)
114mm tall with 10mm of plastic at the top, 81mm of screen and 23mm at the bottom for the buttons and pad/joystick.
(Side to side)
71mm wide with 5mm on each side.
(Thickness)
Make it thinner then 13.5mm, 7-10mm would be great.

This is very feasible.
Sean

[Ryan Joseph]

I'm with you here Ryaninc.

You won't have to call me that much longer...I'll be a member of the team in a few days. :-)

Anyway, back to topic...check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5701448225

I remember seeing something about this device a while ago...looks like they're actually producing it for developers. And it's VGA, too. The interesting thing is that it doesn't have a single bid..........

[Stephen Beesley]

The great thing about usb would be using usb peripherals - presuming of course that drivers are actually written.
On a small PDA, I can not think of one USB peripheral that you could not use Bluetooth for. Bluetooth on the PDA is being used for Keyboards, (DUN) Dial Up Networking over a cell, printing, bar code scanners, GPS units, wireless headsets and many more that are in full production today. Can you name a common sense peripheral for a PDA that you could not use Bluetooth for assuming the PDA has built in WiFi?
Sure -- hard disks, CD and DVD drives. There are portable hard drives out there; why not be able to hook them up to your Pocket PC? Why not have a CD RW that you could install software from or burn MP3 CDs on?

I don't think those are any less "common sense" than having a printer with your Pocket PC.

Steve

On top of which I think that, at least in the near term, BlueTooth Accessories are going to be more expensive (and maybe not as available) compareed to USB ones

[SeanH]

Sure -- hard disks, CD and DVD drives. There are portable hard drives out there; why not be able to hook them up to your Pocket PC? Why not have a CD RW that you could install software from or burn MP3 CDs on?

I don't think those are any less "common sense" than having a printer with your Pocket PC.

Steve
In my option there is a fine line between a laptop and a PDA. If you need to use a DVD player, burn mp3’s to a CD-R or hook an external 3.5” USB HD you really should be using a laptop. They make really small laptops that alow you to do those things. Those are not common sense items for a PDA. All those devices are larger then the PDA itself. Someone else quoted “Pocket PC’s are meant to fit in your Pocket”.

When I referring to using a Bluetooth printer I was referring to walking up to a Bluetooth printer and printing, not carrying one with you all the time.

Sean

[JonnoB]

There was one option missing:

My next PDA will be QVGA because thats what the MPx will be :(

My next PDA will definitely be the MPx, and I am making many compromises (memory, VGA, processor speed, which will all be downgrades from my XDA 2) because the overall package has such great functionality.

So sometimes the killer device does not have all your specs, and you have to get it anyway :(

Surur

That is why I voted to say mine will be QVGA because of size. I couldn't imaging a usable VGA screen with a PPC phone form factor. I too am enamored with the MPx and will make it my next PDA.

[Bill Gunn]

My ideal PDA wouldn’t fit in a pocket. It would be the size of a Apple Newton with an 800x600 display. It would have usable versions of the Office apps comparable to, say, Office 95. It would have WiFi and Bluetooth built in. And no, that doesn’t mean I want a laptop. I want instant-on and I don’t want a huge power draining desktop OS. I want 8 hours of (normal) use from a charge. And I want it for less than a thousand dollars.

[jolam97]

I would like VGA support in my next Pocket PC, but I also want the form factor to be no bigger than my current ipaq 2210. Maybe they can still manage to maintain that form factor using a screen of 4.0" or 3.8".

Also, down the line it would be nice if the screen size can support maybe half VGA as well. Not only can we use 640x480 or 320x240, but maybe 480 x 360 too. that way the smaller screen wouldn't look to tiny with resolution set too high.

[Pony99CA]

Sure -- hard disks, CD and DVD drives. There are portable hard drives out there; why not be able to hook them up to your Pocket PC? Why not have a CD RW that you could install software from or burn MP3 CDs on?

I don't think those are any less "common sense" than having a printer with your Pocket PC.
In my option there is a fine line between a laptop and a PDA. If you need to use a DVD player, burn mp3’s to a CD-R or hook an external 3.5” USB HD you really should be using a laptop. They make really small laptops that alow you to do those things.
I have a laptop (a "normal" size one) and I have an iPAQ. Why should I buy a third device because you don't think it makes sense to attach a USB hard disk to a Pocket PC?

Those are not common sense items for a PDA. All those devices are larger then the PDA itself. Someone else quoted “Pocket PC’s are meant to fit in your Pocket”.
Well, you aren't the first person to say that I don't have any common sense. :lol: However, I don't think Pocket PCs have to fit in your pocket; my iPAQ 5550 with dual CF card sleeve doesn't. That's what gear bags are for. :-D

When I referring to using a Bluetooth printer I was referring to walking up to a Bluetooth printer and printing, not carrying one with you all the time.
Ah, so I'm expected to rely on the kindness of strangers if I want to print. :| Maybe you travel where Bluetooth printers are common, but I don't think that I've ever seen one.

Steve

[dh]

How much did you spend? I saw one price of about $849, which is a lot, but not totally out there.
Steve, I bought mine for about $700.00 from a guy who ships from Japan. Expensive, but for what these can do I thought it was worth the money. Having used it a couple of weeks, I have to say the Z is a great device but finding good applications and getting them to work can be a challange. Not for everyone, but the Zaurus can be very rewarding.

If I get a PPC again in future, it would be VGA for sure, especially if as good as the Sharp screen. :D

[Kati Compton]

I voted etch-a-sketch. ;)

I'm completely torn between "smaller than my X5 and QVGA" or "a little bigger and 4" VGA".

I don't want VGA in a screen smaller than 3.7", and really, 4" would be better (for me).

So, I want a 4" VGA PPC fully loaded, or a 4155 with more ROM. Actually, for the small side, what I'd *really* like is the MPx with more memory. But I'm apparently now living in the Boondocks of cell phone coverage, and GSM coverage doesn't seem to be nearly as good here as CDMA. Plus, I will only do "pay as you go" cell coverage... And I'm not paying more than $650 for a device, even if it's perfect.

[SeanH]

I have a laptop (a "normal" size one) and I have an iPAQ. Why should I buy a third device because you don't think it makes sense to attach a USB hard disk to a Pocket PC?
Adding an external HD or CD-R to a PocketPC reminds of those people that pull a 19 foot boat with a Ford Escort. Everyone has a different view on how they want to use there PDA. My view is not to use a PDA for this function.

http://mbu.com/ppc/bigdrive.jpg

Sean

[whydidnt]

It's interesting that almost 90% of us have "some" interest one way or another in getting a VGA PPC. It doesn't sound like the manufacturers (or even MS) seem all that excited about delivering it to us. So far we've had several more announcements and rumors of QVGA devices than VGA, and MS decided that VGA doesn't really mean VGA, at least for it's own apps.

PPC Thoughts visitors might not all considered mainstream, but I'd be willing to guess we are these manufacturers bread and butter. Not to sound like a techno-elitist, but mainstream consumers never know they want something new until the geeks in the crowd show them what they are missing. How many "mainstream" consumers were interested in the Ipod, or even an MP3 player a couple of years ago? Yet now everyone wants one.

I think many of these manufacturers miss the boat when they consisitently shoot for low-end mass appeal products. Those items will take care of themselves if the inner-geek in all of us is satisfied.

[alex_kac]

VGA screens are more espensive than QVGA screens. VGA screens mean that lots of third party sw still runs in a pseudo-qvga mode. VGA screens AFAIK right now are only 4'' in size at the price point that makes sense. So until 3.5/3.8'' VGA screens come down in price, you'll probably not see small PDAs with VGA for a little while yet.

To me - I love the VGA screens so much I almost would prefer to use it over my XDA II, but I gotta have GPRS, so its not a decision I can make yet.

[Wiggin]

I have a laptop (a "normal" size one) and I have an iPAQ. Why should I buy a third device because you don't think it makes sense to attach a USB hard disk to a Pocket PC?
Adding an external HD or CD-R to a PocketPC reminds of those people that pull a 19 foot boat with a Ford Escort. Everyone has a different view on how they want to use there PDA. My view is not to use a PDA for this function.

:rofl:
Touché Sean...thx for the laugh.
:way to go:

[Mark Johnson]

It's interesting that almost 90% of us have "some" interest one way or another in getting a VGA PPC.

PPC Thoughts visitors might not all considered mainstream, but I'd be willing to guess we are these manufacturers bread and butter. Not to sound like a techno-elitist, but mainstream consumers never no they want something new until the geeks in the crowd show them what they are missing.


I think you are hitting the nail on the head here. Just about EVERY person here is saying they want VGA, and PPCT folks are the types of people who tend to direct sales. Think about how many times this week/month you've talked to someone about your PPC. For me this is VERY often - ranging from clients who want to manage their contacts to the guy sitting next to me in church who noticed I no longer take notes on the sermon by scribbling them into the margin of my bible, but instead on my iPaq.

I can't even count the numer of clients and friends who I've told in recent months specifically to IGNORE all the devices on sale now until the VGA units arrive. What I feel bad about is that I told them the units were coming this summer, but the manufacturers are making me wrong. It will only be a trickle, and I'm guessing we won't see the "QVGA-is-as-dead-as-black-and-white" stage before 2005.

Also, I'm kind of surprised by the handful of comments praising screen rotation in SE. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm just not seeing it as very significant. I need to see MORE information at one time, I don't care about what the orientation is. Particularly, I need to see my next week schedule (five days at a time) WITH detailed events of each day, which won't work with QVGA but should be quite doable with VGA. I find screen-rotation to be a real yawner until VGA is here anyway. If the QVGA screen shows me an UNDETAILED view of the next five days, why should I care if that LACK of information appears in portrait or landscape? If, on the other hand, VGA gives me the details for the five days, I don't really care if Monday through Friday appears from top-to-bottom or left-to-right. I can see a few advantages for landscape, but mostly for web-broswing, but again, that only seems practical with VGA detail anyway, so what's the point of QVGA rotation?

[Don't Panic!]

The processor and WM2003SE are what lead me to order an X30. VGA would have been nice but not unless prices come down. And when is the ASUS 730 due to be released anyway?

Don't Panic!
Bobby

[Sven Johannsen]

Excessive size and price may stop me from getting the new PPC altogether, but it won't drive me to a new QVGA device.
Are you saying that you wouldn't consider a QVGA machine, even with a 624 MHz processor, Windows Mobile 2003 SE (so on-the-fly portrait and landscape switching), 256 MB RAM and triple wireless (Bluetooth, WiFi and cellular)? :-D

Steve

Surprisingly, maybe, Yes, I am saying that.

As far as dual slots, I'm pretty ambivalent about that at this point. I need the memory slot but I don't really need much in the way of peripherals given the dual wireless.
Faster processor might be nice, but really doesn't affect what I do. I'm not a gamer, don't compile code, or edit video on my PPC. I think it remains to be seen if the increased proc speed will be real noticeable in day to day use, or just run the battery down faster ;)
Built-into-the-OS portrait/landscape might be nice, but I haven't missed it. I own a copy of Nyditot, but it usually only stays on the device for a day or two. I find most things acceptable in portrait, and designed for it anyway. (You might have guessed I'm not a heavy spreadsheet user either.)
256M Ram? Now that interests me, but I've only seen/heard 128M bandied about. That alone wouldn't make me cuckold my 4155, which has the PPCTechs 64M expansion BTW.

Actually, with all the other enhancements you mentioned I think it would be ridiculous for that device not to have a VGA screen as well. In fact, if it had all that and didn't have a VGA screen, I wouldn't buy it. It would be like buying a Pentium 4, 3.2Ghz machine and butting an 800x600 screen on it.

[Shadowcat]

I chose the "My next PPC will have VGA, if it does not cost much more than QVGA units" option. However, I need to clarify some points on VGA screens. Do we need a VGA screen to be able to use the new feature that lets us choose the size of on-screen text? That is one of the most important issues for me. I find it painful to read text and browse the net on a Pocket PC due to the small screen sizes. I would love the ability to make the text smaller. This brings me to another point; screen rotation is also very useful. It allows you to view more cells in Excel, which would make it more useful, allow webpages to look better, and I personally find it more comfortable to read a book if it is in a landscape oriention.

I am also torn between a full-featured (and probably large) Pocket PC and a small, but less featured, Pocket PC. In the end, however, the price is the most important factor.

[Falstaff]

Do we need a VGA screen to be able to use the new feature that lets us choose the size of on-screen text? That is one of the most important issues for me. I find it painful to read text and browse the net on a Pocket PC due to the small screen sizes. I would love the ability to make the text smaller. This brings me to another point; screen rotation is also very useful. It allows you to view more cells in Excel, which would make it more useful, allow webpages to look better, and I personally find it more comfortable to read a book if it is in a landscape oriention.

No, you don't need a VGA device to change the screen orientation or font size. The issue with font size is readability though. I can read smaller fonts, but on my e755, if I drop the size down too small, the characters become pixelated and illegible. If I were to quadruple the resolution however (go to VGA) I would be able to read the small font easily and see a LOT more on my screen at once. I can't wait to be browsing the web in landscape mode with a 4" VGA screen, that will be a good day for me.

[Shadowcat]

Then VGA will definately be something that I want (please somebody make a cheaper VGA Pocket PC). How are you changing the font size on your e755? I thought the SE upgrade was only for the e805? If you have a 3rd party program can you please post the link? I would be interested in seeing how bad smaller font sizes are on a QVGA screen.

[dilta]

I think the only thing that really matters when it comes to the VGA Pocket PC is the build-in FULL keyboard.
By "full keyboard", I assume you mean a larger SIP keyboard, not a physical keyboard.

However, are you sure there will be such a thing? The SIP keyboard in landscape mode seems to be exactly the same, even though there is more room on the sides for additional keys. (See the Windows Mobile 2003 SE review (http://www.brighthand.com/article/Brighthand_Review_Windows_Mobile_SE) at Brighthand for a picture. Unfortunately, they couldn't test VGA, so there were no pictures of the SIP in VGA.)

While a full SIP keyboard would be cool, I doubt it's the only thing that matters. In fact, this is the first time I've even heard somebody mention it.

Steve

I totally agree with you. The full screen SIP keyboard may be of little use, and the elegant implementation of on screen SIP keyboard may be less feasible than expected.

Actually, I meant the physical QWERTY keyboard. :oops:

[Pony99CA]

I have a laptop (a "normal" size one) and I have an iPAQ. Why should I buy a third device because you don't think it makes sense to attach a USB hard disk to a Pocket PC?

Adding an external HD or CD-R to a PocketPC reminds of those people that pull a 19 foot boat with a Ford Escort. Everyone has a different view on how they want to use there PDA. My view is not to use a PDA for this function.

Interesting. So what's your view of those people who give presentations by taking a projector (which is bigger than a hard disk) and Pocket PC with them? Should they also be lugging a laptop instead because they "shouldn't" use a PDA for that?

You said that you couldn't think of a need for USB in a PDA, so I gave you some. Whether you would use a PDA with a USB drive or CD-RW is a completely different matter.

By the way, do those Escort drivers look happy with their boats? :-)

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Also, I'm kind of surprised by the handful of comments praising screen rotation in SE. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm just not seeing it as very significant. I need to see MORE information at one time, I don't care about what the orientation is.
As Shadowcat said, landscape is useful to allow viewing spreadsheets and Web pages with less horizontal scrolling. You can use virtual display programs today to do that, but their problem is that they require a soft reset to switch orientation to view programs that don't work well in landscape mode. That soft reset is enough to put me off virtual display programs.

WM 2K3 SE, with on-the-fly switching, will be a huge boon, I think, regardless of VGA.

As for seeing more information, VGA may allow some extra information to be viewed, but it won't be 4x as much (unless you can read things that are 4x as small). You will certainly get more detailed graphics and crisper text, which may allow you to use slightly smaller fonts, but how much smaller can you go before they get unreadable?

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I think the only thing that really matters when it comes to the VGA Pocket PC is the build-in FULL keyboard.
By "full keyboard", I assume you mean a larger SIP keyboard, not a physical keyboard.
Actually, I meant the physical QWERTY keyboard. :oops:
OK, now I'm confused. What does a physical keyboard have to do with VGA? I haven't heard of any VGA Pocket PCs that will come with physical keyboards (like the iPAQ 4350). Have you heard of one?

Steve

[Falstaff]

Then VGA will definately be something that I want (please somebody make a cheaper VGA Pocket PC). How are you changing the font size on your e755? I thought the SE upgrade was only for the e805? If you have a 3rd party program can you please post the link? I would be interested in seeing how bad smaller font sizes are on a QVGA screen.

I'm referring to changing the text size by zooming out in word processing and spreadsheet programs. I also make the size of my upcoming appointments small using Calendar +.

[Pony99CA]

Then VGA will definately be something that I want (please somebody make a cheaper VGA Pocket PC). How are you changing the font size on your e755? I thought the SE upgrade was only for the e805? If you have a 3rd party program can you please post the link? I would be interested in seeing how bad smaller font sizes are on a QVGA screen.
You can change the system font size with a registry tweak. Look at RegKing (http://doctorce.com/regking.htm) for a freeware tweaker or Tweaks 2K2 (http://www.pc-counselor.8m.com/downloads.htm) for a more comprehensive tweaker (but one that costs money).

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Adding an external HD or CD-R to a PocketPC reminds of those people that pull a 19 foot boat with a Ford Escort. Everyone has a different view on how they want to use there PDA. My view is not to use a PDA for this function.

I got an interesting E-mail yesterday from a visitor to my site.

Bumped into your site (pocket PC) and wondered if you can point me in the direction of how I can connect a iPAC to an external USB drive (I'm a photographer who would like to view images I've placed on the external drive using the iPAC rather than a bulky laptop).
Should I forward him your comments? :-D

By the way, he's not the only guy to want a big hard disk on his Pocket PC. Check out the Storage Brick (http://www.tjotala.com/hardware/storagebrick/default.htm). It's not a USB drive, but I see no reason why it couldn't be. Also note how small that drive is compared to the one you posted the picture of.

Steve

[SeanH]

Interesting. So what's your view of those people who give presentations by taking a projector (which is bigger than a hard disk) and Pocket PC with them? Should they also be lugging a laptop instead because they "shouldn't" use a PDA for that?
I think the concept of using a Pocket PC connected to a LCD projector falls into the same category as people that pull 19 foot boats with there 4 cylinder Ford Escort. The DB15 VGA connector is half the size of an iPAQ 4150. It would be very cumbersome holding a PDA with the huge connector and cable to go from slide to slide. That’s not the right tool for the job but there are people that try to rig things to make them work.

You said that you couldn't think of a need for USB in a PDA, so I gave you some. Whether you would use a PDA with a USB drive or CD-RW is a completely different matter.
I said name a USB peripheral that made common sense that is not already available using Bluetooth assuming the PDA had WiFi built in. An external HD or CD-R is not why people buy PDA’s

By the way, do those Escort drivers look happy with their boats?
There are a lot of wacky people in this world

Sean

[disconnected]

I like to watch movies on plane trips. It seems like it might take close to 1GB to store a movie using the higher resolution, so some sort of external USB storage option might be very nice.

[Kati Compton]

Interesting. So what's your view of those people who give presentations by taking a projector (which is bigger than a hard disk) and Pocket PC with them? Should they also be lugging a laptop instead because they "shouldn't" use a PDA for that?
I think the concept of using a Pocket PC connected to a LCD projector falls into the same category as people that pull 19 foot boats with there 4 cylinder Ford Escort. The DB15 VGA connector is half the size of an iPAQ 4150. It would be very cumbersome holding a PDA with the huge connector and cable to go from slide to slide. That’s not the right tool for the job but there are people that try to rig things to make them work.
Actually, I would find being able to connect to a projector more useful than connecting to a CD/DVD player. I could see for a quick (1 day) business trip where I don't need to do other work bringing just my PPC to do the presentation.

[Gerard]

SeanH, you seem fairly settled on the idea that a PDA is to be more limited in storage capacity than an external hard drive affords, and that's okay. For you. Opinions are what places like this are all about. But humour and boat trailers aside, there are many, many PDA users who do in fact want/need large capacity external hard drives.

I bought an Accurite Travel HD back in November of 2000, and use it still. It's only 6GB, but at the time that was as big as I could afford. Now they don't make that model any more, but have them between 10 and 30GB, with either USB or PC card connections. Here's the USB page:
http://www.accurite.com/TravelHDUSB.html

These are extremely rugged hard drives, easily tossed into a bag and forgotten until needed, with no need to worry about casual bumps and even short drops to the floor. I'm rather awkward, and have even dropped mine while running a backup to the drive without any interruption in the process or problem with the backup file. Of course, such mistreatment is not recommended, but the high drop rating does make for some peace of mind. I have taken the thing camping with me, kayaking, wherever, and find it very handy for dumping stills and videos captured using various CF cameras. Write speeds are dramatically faster than to even a high speed CF card, so I can get on with shooting images rather than waiting around for files to finish pasting to a card.

You don't want one, nor do you see the need. Plainly Accurite has customers who feel differently, as they have been selling these things for years. As more and more people wake up to the diverse capabilities of the Pocket PC, there will no doubt (in my mind) be more companies offering large capacity external hard drives. It just makes sense to offer more tools for such versatile devices as these.

[SeanH]

Don’t get me wrong I am huge fan of PPC, PPC with lots of storage and a huge fan of external HD’s. I bought my iPAQ 3650 four years ago in Oct 2000 and a week later picked up a 1GB HD for the CF sleeve. This is where my option changes a little. When I put the sleeve on the iPAQ I realized it made my PDA huge so I took out my Dremel and hacked it down to nothing. Here is a pic www.mbu.com/ipaq/. My goal is to have as much storage as possible in the smallest possible device. Combining a PDA with an external USB drive is the same size as a laptop with a built in 60GB drive.

I mentioned I am a huge fan of external storage. Here is a pic of my removable drive setup for my laptop, desktop and servers. I do not work with computers for a living it’s all a hobby.

http://mbu.com/ppc/drive.jpg

That is a couple terabytes of storage. Most those are 160GB, 250GB and 300GB drives.

I have taken the thing camping with me, kayaking, wherever, and find it very handy for dumping stills and videos captured using various CF cameras. Write speeds are dramatically faster than to even a high speed CF card, so I can get on with shooting images rather than waiting around for files to finish pasting to a card.
Explain how you do that? Do you put the CF card from the camera in your PDA and copy one image to RAM then plug in the CF USB card to interface to the external HD then copy the image out of RAM to the drive? Then repeat the process? A PDA only has 32MB to 128MB of RAM. Or do you have a dual CF or PCMCIA card with the external HD in one and the CF reader in the other? If that’s the case a laptop would be ¼ the size of that configuration.

In my option if you’re using a external HD with a PDA your using the wrong tool for the job.

Sean

[Mark Johnson]

As for seeing more information, VGA may allow some extra information to be viewed, but it won't be 4x as much (unless you can read things that are 4x as small). You will certainly get more detailed graphics and crisper text, which may allow you to use slightly smaller fonts, but how much smaller can you go before they get unreadable?

Steve

You know, that's a really interesting question... I've been looking forward to VGA because I know that right now, the smallest font setting available to me (using a new Pocket Word document as a test) is 8-point and I find that ridiculously large. If I take the same text from Pocket Word and paste it into Pocket Excel and then override the font-size selector (which also shows the smallest option to be 8-point, but can be manually-entered as 6 or 4, etc.) then I can only estimate what is the smallest font size that would work for me. So your question brings up the issue: "OK Mark, what size font do you want anyway?"

So I've been playing around in Excel for a little while here (give it a try guys when you get a chance). I'm convinced that if the screen pixels (in VGA) would make a 4-point font rendered sharply, then I would definately choose to use it (at least for some documents - probably not for contacts since I need to look those up while I'm driving.) :wink:

I realize I'm fortunate to have better than 20/20 vision, so not everyone will be interested in displaying text much smaller than the QVGA 8-point that the PPC has tapped-out at. However, I'm guessing there are quite a few people like me who feel that a 3.5 inch screen is a good size (because it allows me to fix the device in my pocket) but still very much want to go several steps smaller on font size.

I think to would make another intersting poll, but the problem is that it really is guesswork for us to estimate "how low can you go" until we are actually playing with VGA and can see the real size.

But as to your original question:

...but how much smaller can you go before they get unreadable?
Steve
I would say I'm expecting to at least double the amount of visible information just by using settings 1/2 the size of what I now see at 8-point on my QVGA. So you're right that I might not make it down to 4x the amount of visible data, but 2x sure makes it worth waiting for an hx4700 or A730...

[Gerard]

... Or do you have a dual CF or PCMCIA card with the external HD in one and the CF reader in the other? If that’s the case a laptop would be ¼ the size of that configuration.


Yup indeed, my iPAQ 3835 wears a dual CF sleeve all the time. It's a Pitech Memplug, with 1 CF Type II slot on top and 1 CF Type I slot on the left side. Since the slots aren't stacked, and since Pitech actually knows how to design well (unlike Compaq/HP, whose sleeves are ridiculously huge!), the now 3-slotted iPAQ (including the SD) is about at bulky as my Dell X5 with the Mugen 3800mAh battery on it.

But that's not terribly relevant, as software and processor speed limitations make it impractical to capture images and videos to storage cards. I use both the HP VGA and Pretec 1.3Mp CF cameras, and between them use three brands of software. None of these performs properly when I select an out-of-RAM save location, so I just regularly swap out the camera and dump files to storage media. If it's long trip I've used the Accurite, as I don't have enough CF cards to store so many files. CF memory is still more expensive than a hard drive, so this is a practical solution.

I don't understand what sort of notebok PC you might be referencing in your statement that my setup must be 4 times the size of a laptop. Are you by any chance a pixie, and those hard drives lined up on your table are actually microdrives using pixie dust? I mean, that's really the only possibility, as the smallest notebook PC I've ever seen was at least twice as large in volume as either of my Pocket PCs plus the Accurite. Unless you're counting the air between the PPC and the Accurite as part of the size.... is that some sort of pixie math? My external hard drive is just barely larger than my old Casio EG-800. Not that big.

[Pony99CA]

I don't understand what sort of notebok PC you might be referencing in your statement that my setup must be 4 times the size of a laptop. Are you by any chance a pixie, and those hard drives lined up on your table are actually microdrives using pixie dust?
:rofl: I also didn't see how your set up could be 4x the size of a laptop.

There are some smaller laptops available now, but, even if they were smaller than the combined size of your Pocket PC and hard disk, why should you buy one if your solution works for you?

Yes, it would be nice to have enough money to buy every "tool" I could possibly use, but, sadly, I'm not Bill Gates. :-D

Steve

[jlp]

As of now just about 80% of people want VGA in their PDA; wow, impressive 8O

For me I want W-VGA coz I want this OQO dreamie thingie :way to go: 8)

4 days later the percentage is up to 90% in favor of VGA.

Now much better than a bulky external USB HDD or those bulkier dual slots sleeves, why not get a real pocket PC with a built in large capacity HDD instead?!!

With the OQO coming as early as next months according to reliable sources, when I'll change I'll much rather get the latter, with only 3 times the price of an ipaq 5555, or twice if you add an external HDD (and that's still bulkier) at 30 times the computer, the math is easily done 8).

And I get:
a larger screen
XP desktop apps capability
20-30 GB HDD (with falling sensors that park the HDD head 8))
a full keyboard
USB and Firewire ports
direct connectivity to large desktop screens, keyboard, mouse, printers, network, etc.
all in all that's:
a PDA
a PMP (Portable Multimedia Player) with HDD
a desktop in a pocket

[Pony99CA]

As of now just about 80% of people want VGA in their PDA; wow, impressive 8O

For me I want W-VGA coz I want this OQO dreamie thingie :way to go: 8)
4 days later the percentage is up to 90% in favor of VGA.

Remember, though, that over 50% only want it if cost and size are reasonable. If they are reasonable, why wouldn't somebody want it? So the numbers aren't that impressive that to me.

I said my next Pocket PC would have it, too, if the cost were reasonable. However, I don't plan on making it a requirement for my next Pocket PC; there are many features that I'd rather have than VGA.

Now much better than a bulky external USB HDD or those bulkier dual slots sleeves, why not get a real pocket PC with a built in large capacity HDD instead?!!

With the OQO coming as early as next months according to reliable sources, when I'll change I'll much rather get the latter, with only 3 times the price of an ipaq 5555, or twice if you add an external HDD (and that's still bulkier) at 30 times the computer, the math is easily done 8).

And I get:
a larger screen
XP desktop apps capability
20-30 GB HDD (with falling sensors that park the HDD head 8))
a full keyboard
USB and Firewire ports
direct connectivity to large desktop screens, keyboard, mouse, printers, network, etc.
all in all that's:
a PDA
a PMP (Portable Multimedia Player) with HDD
a desktop in a pocket
Those Mini PCs (the OQO, Antelope and FlipStart) certainly sound cool, and I'd like one, too. However, I'm not sure that I can justify the cost.

I also wonder how quickly they will be able to go from pocket to productive use. If it takes a minute to boot one up, I don't think it will really be a PDA replacement.

Steve

[Jonathon Watkins]

I'm convinced that if the screen pixels (in VGA) would make a 4-point font rendered sharply, then I would definately choose to use it (at least for some documents - probably not for contacts since I need to look those up while I'm driving.) :wink:

Using a PPC while driving? 8O Bad man, don't do it again. :twak:

:wink:

I realize I'm fortunate to have better than 20/20 vision, so not everyone will be interested in displaying text much smaller than the QVGA 8-point that the PPC has tapped-out at.

:?: I thought that 20/20 vision was 'perfect' vision, so how can you have better sight than that?

However, I'm guessing there are quite a few people like me who feel that a 3.5 inch screen is a good size (because it allows me to fix the device in my pocket) but still very much want to go several steps smaller on font size.

Personally I like a larger screen, but of course the beauty of VGA is that *you* should be able to choose the font size & have a lot more control. I'm really looking forward to my fist VGA PPC. :D

[SeanH]

I don't understand what sort of notebok PC you might be referencing in your statement that my setup must be 4 times the size of a laptop.
A PPC with a dual CF or PCMCIA sleeve is twice as thick of all laptops made since the year 2000. A PPC next to a 2.5 drive enclosure with its separate power supply or battery pack and all the cables take more surface area then a laptop.

In my option this is not what people think of when they go to buy a PDA.

http://mbu.com/ppc/pcmcia.gif

Sean

[Pony99CA]

I realize I'm fortunate to have better than 20/20 vision, so not everyone will be interested in displaying text much smaller than the QVGA 8-point that the PPC has tapped-out at.
:?: I thought that 20/20 vision was 'perfect' vision, so how can you have better sight than that?
It's not "perfect" vision; it's "normal" vision. I believe that 20/20 vision just means that things that are 20 feet away appear to you like they are 20 feet away (possibly relative to some common norm, like you can make something out at 20 feet that most people can also make out at 20 feet).

20/15 vision means that things that are 20 feet away appear to you to be 15 feet away. It almost seems like telescopic vision. :-D

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I don't understand what sort of notebok PC you might be referencing in your statement that my setup must be 4 times the size of a laptop.
A PPC with a dual CF or PCMCIA sleeve is twice as thick of all laptops made since the year 2000.
Now you're just making things up. Here's a picture of my old iPAQ 3870 in a dual PC Card sleeve next to my Fujitsu C-series laptop (which I bought new in March 2003). They're almost the same height.

http://images.svpocketpc.com/Laptop-iPAQ_Comparison.jpg

Even if the iPAQ/sleeve combination is twice as thick as most laptops, that's only one dimension; it's much smaller than any laptop that I'm aware of in the other two dimensions (and in weight).

In my option this is not what people think of when they go to buy a PDA.

http://mbu.com/ppc/pcmcia.gif

And the readers of this site are not "most people". I carried my iPAQ 3870 in its dual PC Card sleeve around for almost two years, and didn't find it to be excessive.

Steve

[Sven Johannsen]

20/15 vision means that things that are 20 feet away appear to you to be 15 feet away. It almost seems like telescopic vision. :-D
Steve

They don't appear to be 15 feet away, that would really screw up perception. 20/15 means you can see clearly at 20 ft, what a 'normal' person can see clearly at 15 ft.

[bnycastro]

I think I will wait for the VGA screens to become mainstream components of PPCs (like QVGA is now) for my next device I would probably wait for the next WM version... I am not sold yet on the orientation switching thingie; and I want to see real improvements in the built-in apps such as PWord, PExcel, Tasks, File Explorer etc etc. If I can't resist the urge to buy a new device this year I would probably get a QVGA convereged device just to give it a whirl (OS and converged devices) maybe the MPx (since the hp 6xxx will be using the same OS as I have now). Would like to see more converged devices though.

[epdm]

Steve mentioned it earlier. The problem with VGA on a 3.5" screen is readability. I owned a Toshiba E-800 and bought it because of its 4" screen. For one example: If you use your PPC as a gps-navigation system then the PDA is usually further away from the viewer (in a holder) then when held in your hands. This makes 4"screens that bit more eligable.

I also remembered that when I had my Jornada 568 which had a 3.5"screen that I mistyped a lot more using the onscreen's keyboard then with a friends Ipac 3870 which had a 3.7"screen. This is unnoticed at first but can only be experienced hands-on.

As for me. My E-805 broke down and the shop that sold it ran out of them. Unfortunatly they didn't expect a new load so I'm stuck with giftcertifcate for the amount that i spend. Otherwise I'd bought myself a E800 again. Especially if I see that the +600 MHz XScale 270 isn't noticably faster than the 400MHz 267XScale. See my previous post on the Asus VGS PPC.

Regards,

Manu T

[KimVette]

I'd go VGA if and only if a model comes out which can accept BOTH PCMCIA AND CF form factor cards simultaneously, whether through internal slots or through sleeves.

Being able to run CF GPS with a 5GB drive (or equivalent) is an absolute must.

[Janak Parekh]

I'd go VGA if and only if a model comes out which can accept BOTH PCMCIA AND CF form factor cards simultaneously, whether through internal slots or through sleeves.
I'm afraid that's not going to happen in the Pocket PC formfactor. I think an HPC-formfactor device may be the only choice, since HP has killed the sleeves. :(

--janak

[Kati Compton]

I'd go VGA if and only if a model comes out which can accept BOTH PCMCIA AND CF form factor cards simultaneously, whether through internal slots or through sleeves.

Being able to run CF GPS with a 5GB drive (or equivalent) is an absolute must.
Why not just two CF slots? CF GPS and CF Microdrive?

And why not SD GPS and CF Microdrive?

[Pony99CA]

I'd go VGA if and only if a model comes out which can accept BOTH PCMCIA AND CF form factor cards simultaneously, whether through internal slots or through sleeves.
I'm afraid that's not going to happen in the Pocket PC formfactor. I think an HPC-formfactor device may be the only choice, since HP has killed the sleeves. :(
I was thinking of starting an online petition (http://petitiononline.com/) for another sleeve-compatible model, but haven't gotten around to it. If anybody else wants to, please do. :-)

However, unless something drastic changes, I doubt you'll see any future Pocket PCs provide any support for PC Cards. Now that the SD/MMC form factor has become popular, nobody seems interested in supporting PC Cards.

In fact, some people are even writing off Compact Flash, which I think is a bit premature.

Steve

[esher2292]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

[KimVette]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Try running a CF GPS with the entire continental US (or even just the eastern seaboard) in storage without dual slots. No, SDIO doesn't count because 512MB doesn't cut it. . . [insert pause, notices no real reply] Thought so. The only real option is the iPAQ with the dual PCMCIA sleeve, or a GPS sleeve with a CF slot.

Playing musical file transfers really stinks - I like having 5GB worth of drive space at my disposal. Then, I never need to swap out maps when I am traveling, PLUS I can have a slew of MP3s and movies on the HDD for entertainment.

Sleeves are a necessity for power users. If HP doesn't come out with another sleeve-compatible iPAQ, I will be giving the PocketPC a boot and will move to a tablet, which is just as well since I sell tablets anyway. Screw HP, and may Carly Fiorina rot in *bleep*.

[JonnoB]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Try running a CF GPS with the entire continental US

Why CF GPS when BT GPS works just as well? Actually, I use a CF GPS unit with my 2210 and then use a 1GB SD card to store maps and I get along just fine. I could of course, add my 1GB CF card and have a Bluetooth GPS and add even more maps if I really needed to.

[Janak Parekh]

Try running a CF GPS with the entire continental US (or even just the eastern seaboard) in storage without dual slots. No, SDIO doesn't count because 512MB doesn't cut it. . . [insert pause, notices no real reply] Thought so. The only real option is the iPAQ with the dual PCMCIA sleeve, or a GPS sleeve with a CF slot.
Kati makes a good point, though, now that a 4GB Microdrive CF unit is available.

Sleeves are a necessity for power users. If HP doesn't come out with another sleeve-compatible iPAQ, I will be giving the PocketPC a boot and will move to a tablet, which is just as well since I sell tablets anyway. Screw HP, and may Carly Fiorina rot in *bleep*.
I carry a tablet with me along with a Pocket PC, but I have to admit, it doesn't have the same convenience when walking down a street... maybe one of the upcoming handheld PCs might fill that niche as well. And it certainly seems like no sleeve standard is coming out; I wonder if anyone will build extensions.

--janak

[ctmagnus]

...I wonder if anyone will build extensions.

That's what I'm hoping.

[Pony99CA]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.
The fuss about VGA, sleeves or slots? :?

Steve

[KimVette]

I'd go VGA if and only if a model comes out which can accept BOTH PCMCIA AND CF form factor cards simultaneously, whether through internal slots or through sleeves.

Being able to run CF GPS with a 5GB drive (or equivalent) is an absolute must.
Why not just two CF slots? CF GPS and CF Microdrive?

And why not SD GPS and CF Microdrive?

Microdrives stop at 2GB, and I already own a PCMCIA 5GB drive and a CF GPS card. Why use SD when notebooks and tablets won't be able to use it? I'd be limited to ONLY the PocketPC where the GPS is concerned.

[Janak Parekh]

Microdrives stop at 2GB
Not anymore. (http://www.hitachigst.com/portal/site/hgst/?epi_menuItemID=2dcd772d4d32c6fd25ad4e8060e4f0a0&epi_menuID=f3422d6ea3268f8d5f5a530560e4f0a0&epi_baseMenuID=22f0deefa8f3967dafa0466460e4f0a0) ;) Doesn't invalidate your other points, but miniturization is certainly helping. Incidentally, a BT GPS unit should work with both Pocket PCs and laptops very nicely.

--janak

[JonnoB]

Microdrives stop at 2GB

They are actually much larger - but very expensive!


I already own a PCMCIA 5GB drive and a CF GPS card.

This is a good reason to want to use PCMCIA and CF, but the same was said about ISA cards when PCI slots were introduced... At first, ISA and PCI slots were in the same system and eventually only PCI slotted machines were available...


Why use SD when notebooks and tablets won't be able to use it? I'd be limited to ONLY the PocketPC where the GPS is concerned.
My Toshiba notebook has an SD slot built in. And for those that do not, inexpensive SD card readers are available. Also, as mentioned before, BT eliminates the need for CF to be used for GPS completely.

[Janak Parekh]

My Toshiba notebook has an SD slot built in.
It's not SDIO, neither are the readers. SDIO only exists on handhelds right now as far as I can tell.

As for CF media, yes -- 6GB flash is now available, I believe, at a (heavy) premium.

--janak

[Pony99CA]

My Toshiba notebook has an SD slot built in.
It's not SDIO, neither are the readers. SDIO only exists on handhelds right now as far as I can tell.
Perhaps, but Kim sounded more concerned with storage than peripherals.

As for computers with SD, my Fujitsu C-series laptop has an SD/Memory Stick slot. Desktops are coming with multi-format cards readers, too.

As for CF media, yes -- 6GB flash is now available, I believe, at a (heavy) premium.
That's flash memory, not a hard disk, right? That's one reason it's so expensive. I also thought 12 GB Compact Flash cards were out, too -- at $10,000 or more. :-D

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

Perhaps, but Kim sounded more concerned with storage than peripherals.
The reference was to a GPS solution -- SDIO seemed to be out of the picture because of the lack of laptop support.

--janak

[KimVette]

Regarding Sleeves
Which PocketPC do power users turn to? Some (available as PCMCIA) devices will never be released in SD format (ethernet, SCSI, etc) and also why should users be forced to abandon hardware which has already been invested in, and is not obsolete? I'm referring to CF GPS cards, USB host cards, PCMCIA hard drives, etc.

What about third-party expansion sleeves people have already invested in, such as GPS sleeves, VGA sleeves, video capture/TV Tuner sleeves, and so forth?

Also, how does one run both GPS and mass storage concurrently on a PPC with just an SD slot? Sure, there is bluetooth, but again, there is the abandonment of hardware which has already been purchased, plus there is the problem of running Bluetooth in an aircraft where it may theoretically adversely affect avionics. This rules out the newest PPCs from being used as a handheld backup GPS system for emergency navigation in the air.

Another problem is battery life. The sleeves greatly extended runtime while using perhiperals. By forcing everything to be run off of the PPC's internal battery, you're decreasing runtime, and by using Bluetooth the radio is sucking that much more current from the battery, further reducing runtime.

HPs shortsighted vision is disgusting. HP owned the high-end PocketPC market and now the market has been abandoned - leaving disgruntled (now-former) customers who are decision makers to create policies blacklisting HP and turn to competitors produts.

HP, get your act together. Either spin off Compaq so the iPAQ team can innovate again, or just kill the HP PPC line entirely since you're making them less and less appealing as technology solutions. I'm thorougly disgusted with HP - especially disgusted because one year ago you (HP) promised to support the expansion sleeve form factor for at least two years.

Regarding VGA
What good is VGA if HP is trying to bring the PocketPC platform back down to a basic PDA? Without the expansion capability, I have NO need for a high-resolution screen and may just as well go with a Palm or even an old Newton. VGA resolution for what - pocket outlook? Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick to the more expandable and capable QVGA models -- slower CPU and all.

Regarding RAM -- and Biometric security
HP (in reality Compaq!) raised the bar with the iPAQ 54xx when they introduced biometric security, and raised it further with the 55xx when they introduced 128MB of RAM. They took steps forward with each Compaq-designed iPAQ model, and now that the original iPAQ team has been canned they're turning back to the Jornada barebones PDA mentality.