WebTalk Radio Show: "Motorola's MPx "Holy Grail" Smart Phone"

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://webtalkguys.com/050104-2.shtml' target='_blank'>http://webtalkguys.com/050104-2.shtml</a><br /><br /></div>"[The] MPx is a Tri-Mode and supports GSM / GPRS, Wi-Fi, and Bluetooth and is condensing the power of a desktop into the convenience of a mobile phone. The Motorola MPx provides mobile computing commuters with a new choice for live, real time, on-the-go connectivity in a never seen before form factor with this merger between the clam phone and mini-laptop. Delivering Microsoft Pocket PC second edition functionality, QWERTY keyboard, continuous connectivity using Wi-Fi, GPRS / GSM and Bluetooth technologies, as well as an embedded 1.3 mega pixel camera with flash and large dual hinge landscape and portrait color display. Listen to Kevin Goulet, Dir. of Product Operation, Motorola talk about the MPx (46 Minutes)."<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/MPx-photo.jpg" /> <br /><br />The segment on the MPx starts around the 14 minute mark - it took me six guesses and several minutes to find it. I felt like I was using a VHS tape again - it would have been so much easier if there were chapter markers in the audio file. Anyway, the Motorola spokesperson confirmed that it will be using Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition, which we knew. It will be using the TI OMAP 200 mhz CPU, and will have 64 MB of flash ROM and 32 MB of RAM. 32 MB of RAM? He initially said it had 64 MB of RAM and 32 MB of Flash, then corrected himself. So which is it I wonder? 32 MB of RAM seems insane - I can't describe how quickly crippled this device will be come if it's used for a lot of email and Web access.<br /><br />&lt;RANT MODE ON><i>Microsoft has done a very poor job of memory management when it comes to attachments and temporary internet files. I have a client who has a 32 MB Dell Axim X5, and he's constantly running into memory problems because of an unlimited temporary Internet files setting (there is no setting option, so it's unlimited! Whee!), and poor attachment management (why are huge attachments stored on the device weeks after the message has been deleted from the device?). It's ridiculous I had to use a registry hacking tool just to force email attachments to go to the storage card instead of the Flash ROM area. It's almost like Microsoft and the OEMs don't really test these before they release them. Can you tell I'm a little bitter about this issue? :roll: </i>&lt;/RANT MODE OFF><br /><br />Back to the topic, the Motorola speaker said there was no place to pre-order it - I guess I'd better tell him about <a href="http://estore.shopplex.com/app/storefront.aspx?cat_id=162&inv_id=40302110143250&modid=30214092059015&aid=5">Tek 'n Toys</a>. ;-) (Yes, I know as a company spokesperson he can't mention unofficially pre-orders from vendors).

[JonnoB]

It is important to note that the memory configuration is unlike any other PPC to-date. The 32mb RAM and 64mb of storage area is fixed and does not use a sliding scale of RAM for storage/program memory. This is in effect, like a device with 96MB of shared program/storage memory.

[Chris Spera]

Do we know which GSM carrier will have this phone in the States? I would really like to get a hold of this device!

I am prepared to purchase an unlocked version if I have to, but would really rather not...$900+ US dollars is a bit expensive, eh?

[werb]

TI OMAP 200 mhz CPU?????

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Rudolf]

TI OMAP 200 mhz CPU?????

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
You should not judge based on processor clock speed only. Only real life usage will tell, how fast/slow is it compared to a 400MHz XScale processor. In general I guess that windows media playback will be smoother/faster than on a current XScale device.

[rogrees]

What did you do to get your pocket pc to store messages on your storage card? I have the resco editor. What do I need to do?

[Jonathon Watkins]

TI OMAP 200 mhz CPU?????

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
You should not judge based on processor clock speed only. Only real life usage will tell, how fast/slow is it compared to a 400MHz XScale processor

I'm looking forward to the benchmarks & 'real world' experience of the OMAP processors. Should be interesting......

[whydidnt]

It is important to note that the memory configuration is unlike any other PPC to-date. The 32mb RAM and 64mb of storage area is fixed and does not use a sliding scale of RAM for storage/program memory. This is in effect, like a device with 96MB of shared program/storage memory.

I think the 64 MB works like a built in storage card. I wonder if that impacts performance at all? Still an interesting concept since it should help slow battery drain.

I'm not too worried about the OMAP processor. I think we may be pleasantly surprised by it's performance.

I REALLY want one of these. I'm just not sure how patient I can be if the 6300 comes out first. :devilboy:

My spouse already thinks I'm insane with 2 PPC's, 1 Palm and 2 different mobile phones (plus one of the PPC's is the T-Mobile.) :oops: that I use depending on mood or purpose.

whydidnt

[Pat Logsdon]

What did you do to get your pocket pc to store messages on your storage card? I have the resco editor. What do I need to do?
I don't know about storing messages on a storage card, but you can store attachments there by selecting the "Store attachments on storage card" box on the Storage tab on the Tools menu. Seems to work for me... :mrgreen:

[T-Will]

Where are the phantom attachments from deleted email kept on the PPC?

[Pat Logsdon]

I'm looking forward to the benchmarks & 'real world' experience of the OMAP processors. Should be interesting......
Agreed. My wife's 1945 has a Samsung 266 mhz processor, and it's just about as speedy as my 4150.

[stephman]

&lt;RANT MODE ON>Microsoft has done a very poor job of memory management when it comes to attachments and temporary internet files. I have a client who has a 32 MB Dell Axim X5, and he's constantly running into memory problems because of an unlimited temporary Internet files setting (there is no setting option, so it's unlimited! Whee!), and poor attachment management (why are huge attachments stored on the device weeks after the message has been deleted from the device?). It's ridiculous I had to use a registry hacking tool just to force email attachments to go to the storage card instead of the Flash ROM area. It's almost like Microsoft and the OEMs don't really test these before they release them. Can you tell I'm a little bitter about this issue? &lt;/RANT MODE OFF>

Does anyone know if Microsoft has added anything to Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition which rectifies the issues discuss above about leftover attachments clogging up the memory?

[Cipr0]

So far I have only seen mention of GSM / GPRS version.....any mention of CDMA?

Not trolling....asking...

[Phoenix]

If they only put in 32MB RAM in a device of this sophistication, they'll cripple it before it reaches the shelves.

Stupid, stupid, STOOPID!

A device of this caliber should not offer anything less than 128MB.


I think we need Apple to step in and put out a handheld with a 20GB HDD. That'll get all the rest of these guys in gear in terms of the memory. I can buy a laptop with 512MB of RAM and a 40GB HDD for roughly the same cost as this handheld is going to sell for. So why is any handheld shipping with less than 128MB these days? That should be the bare minimum. Talk about poor value.

Unbelievable. :roll:

[cgavula]

And it's NOT like having a 96MB machine because you can't get more than 32MB to act as RAM. That means it's more like a 32MB machine with a 64MB storage card. Not good for GPS or a number of other applications.

--Chris

[JonnoB]

And it's NOT like having a 96MB machine because you can't get more than 32MB to act as RAM. That means it's more like a 32MB machine with a 64MB storage card. Not good for GPS or a number of other applications.


It is not like a 32mb machine with 64mb of storage because the 32mb of RAM will NEVER be used for storage. A 32mb RAM device will have some of its space used for program storage. The 32mb of RAM on the MPx will not be used ever for things like email file attachments, IE cache, etc. It is only used for programs in memory. Rarely have I ever had more than 32mb of program space used. Most of my 64mb standard space is used in storage space and not real-time application execution space. I think this is a good compromise, but it would have been better to see a 64ram/128storage configuration :-)

[ultraman]

Anyone know when will the MPx release?

[Gator5000e]

Please post the site to obtain the hacking tool for forcing attachments to a storage card. Using the check box mentioned earlier only puts them into my built-in storage on my Axim.

Thanks

[stephman]

Please post the site to obtain the hacking tool for forcing attachments to a storage card. Using the check box mentioned earlier only puts them into my built-in storage on my Axim.

Thanks

Is this what you are looking for?
Link (http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5461&highlight=)

[q-live]

:!: :!: :!: I WANT TO KNOW THE SAME THING>>> WHEN IS IT COMING OUT.... AND IF ITS TO LATE IN THE YEAR HOW CAN WE GET MOTOROLA TO MAKE IT COME OUT QUICKER LIKE LATE SPRING :?: :?: SO WHO DO I NEED TO SPEAK TO :?: :?: :mrgreen:

[Chris Spera]

And it's NOT like having a 96MB machine because you can't get more than 32MB to act as RAM. That means it's more like a 32MB machine with a 64MB storage card. Not good for GPS or a number of other applications.


It is not like a 32mb machine with 64mb of storage because the 32mb of RAM will NEVER be used for storage. A 32mb RAM device will have some of its space used for program storage. The 32mb of RAM on the MPx will not be used ever for things like email file attachments, IE cache, etc. It is only used for programs in memory. Rarely have I ever had more than 32mb of program space used. Most of my 64mb standard space is used in storage space and not real-time application execution space. I think this is a good compromise, but it would have been better to see a 64ram/128storage configuration :-)


What about apps like PI and Snoopsoft Dashboard that MUST be installed to Main Program RAM? If they are installed to the Standard Space, will the apps work correctly?

This is NOT a SmartPhone. Its a Phone Edition device, or at least its running Phone Edition OS. As a result, without seeing it and working with it, I can't say with any confidence that it won't have some serious compatibility issues.

I still want to know who's going to carry this device and exactly when it will be released.

[BTS]

I must say that it sure does look like an intriguing device! My concern is what the price will end up being. Sigh....wish I had an expense account! :cry:

[JonnoB]

What about apps like PI and Snoopsoft Dashboard that MUST be installed to Main Program RAM? If they are installed to the Standard Space, will the apps work correctly?

The storage memory does not appear to the OS as a storage card, but as local storage RAM just as local storage memory does now.... but instead of a user slider control panel applet... it is fixed at 32MB program RAM and 64MB storage RAM. There is a seperate SD slot for storage cards. The WM2003SE OS supports this new type of configuration.


This is NOT a SmartPhone. Its a Phone Edition device, or at least its running Phone Edition OS. As a result, without seeing it and working with it, I can't say with any confidence that it won't have some serious compatibility issues.


It is quite possible that there will be some compatibility issues, but I doubt there will be many that other WM2003SE devices won't also experience. The memory/storage will look the same as any other device with a sliding shared mechanism.

[ultraman]

What about apps like PI and Snoopsoft Dashboard that MUST be installed to Main Program RAM? If they are installed to the Standard Space, will the apps work correctly?

The storage memory does not appear to the OS as a storage card, but as local storage RAM just as local storage memory does now.... but instead of a user slider control panel applet... it is fixed at 32MB program RAM and 64MB storage RAM. There is a seperate SD slot for storage cards. The WM2003SE OS supports this new type of configuration.


This is NOT a SmartPhone. Its a Phone Edition device, or at least its running Phone Edition OS. As a result, without seeing it and working with it, I can't say with any confidence that it won't have some serious compatibility issues.


It is quite possible that there will be some compatibility issues, but I doubt there will be many that other WM2003SE devices won't also experience. The memory/storage will look the same as any other device with a sliding shared mechanism.

In this article, it mentions there is only 32M RAM and 64M ROM, where is the 64M RAM?

8O

[Fishie]

What about apps like PI and Snoopsoft Dashboard that MUST be installed to Main Program RAM? If they are installed to the Standard Space, will the apps work correctly?

The storage memory does not appear to the OS as a storage card, but as local storage RAM just as local storage memory does now.... but instead of a user slider control panel applet... it is fixed at 32MB program RAM and 64MB storage RAM. There is a seperate SD slot for storage cards. The WM2003SE OS supports this new type of configuration.


This is NOT a SmartPhone. Its a Phone Edition device, or at least its running Phone Edition OS. As a result, without seeing it and working with it, I can't say with any confidence that it won't have some serious compatibility issues.


It is quite possible that there will be some compatibility issues, but I doubt there will be many that other WM2003SE devices won't also experience. The memory/storage will look the same as any other device with a sliding shared mechanism.

In this article, it mentions there is only 32M RAM and 64M ROM, where is the 64M RAM?

8O

Badly worded but its the 64MB ROM thing.

RAM in this sort of configuration becomes something like the RAM in your PC while the ROM they speak of is sorta like the hard drive in your PC.
Programs and whatever will with this configuration ALWAYS be stored on the ROM(or a memory card) while the MB of RAM wil ONLY be used to run programs.
Just like your PC.

[OTHHC]

If this device is intended for the North American market it should really seriously consider a quad-band configuration. 850 Mhz is where all the investment is being made for Rogers Wireless in Canada and AT&T in the US (and other carriers I believe). This lower frequency gets much bettter coverage and I will not own a phone again that is not GSM 850 mhz capable. It would also be nice if it supported EDGE instead of only the lower speed GPRS.

The HP 6300 will be quad-band but I prefer the form-factor of the MPx. Decisions. decisions.

[RobertoLV_]

Please post the site to obtain the hacking tool for forcing attachments to a storage card. Using the check box mentioned earlier only puts them into my built-in storage on my Axim.

Thanks

This is to FORCE the TEMPORAL INTERNET FILES to Storage Card, the problem is that the expication is in Spanish, but with LOGIC you can do it.

the link is:

http://www.todopocketpc.com/foro/showpost.php?p=57141&postcount=409

¡¡SALUD!!!!-2

[cgavula]

I was totally misinterpreted:

My statement wasn't that it was EXACTLY like a 32MB machine - my statement was that it was MORE like a 32MB machine than a 96MB machine.

Granted that the 32MB RAM isn't used like it is on current machines, but it's still only 32MB of RAM and I have frequently used more than that. I think it is terribly insufficient for tasks like GPS (among other things). Considering it is sort of trying to be a "jack of all trades" I'd like to see it better outfitted for the task.

--Chris

[ale_ers]

From what I have read, one of the reasons they used this set up (32/64) is for stability. The memory acts like a file store, so that if you run you battery all the way down (as is very common with cell phones) you will not lose any of your programs.

[ale_ers]

This lower frequency gets much bettter coverage and I will not own a phone again that is not GSM 850 mhz capable. It would also be nice if it supported EDGE instead of only the lower speed GPRS.

I have read rumors that both devices (MPx and 6300) will eventually be coming out with an EDGE model. I don't know if this is true, but I know at least one will have EDGE.


The HP 6300 will be quad-band but I prefer the form-factor of the MPx. Decisions. decisions.

I am thinking the same thing. The 6300 may have better coverage. The MPx may have a better form factor...although there may be something to be said about the larger screen in the 6300 if you are to use it for GPS and such. This will be a tough decision, I guess I will have to wait until they come out and make a comparison chart with everything (battery life, coverage, stability, speed, and on and on).

[Jason Dunn]

It is important to note that the memory configuration is unlike any other PPC to-date. The 32mb RAM and 64mb of storage area is fixed and does not use a sliding scale of RAM for storage/program memory. This is in effect, like a device with 96MB of shared program/storage memory.

Aha - I wasn't aware of that. Or maybe I was and I forgot. ;-) That's an OK solution then, although I've run across more than one application that doesn't run properly from Flash ROM, especially input method programs. I hope developers can get their apps to work with this type of device!

[Jason Dunn]

What did you do to get your pocket pc to store messages on your storage card? I have the resco editor. What do I need to do?

http://www.ppcw.net/index.php?itemid=1885

[Jason Dunn]

I don't know about storing messages on a storage card, but you can store attachments there by selecting the "Store attachments on storage card" box on the Storage tab on the Tools menu. Seems to work for me... :mrgreen:

It's not that easy on all devices Pat - with some of them, such as the Dell Axim X5, it's hard-coded to go to the 5 MB of internal Flash because Dell screwed up the naming of the card, and Microsoft was too short-sighted to take devices with multiple storage cards into account. So you have to hack the registry in order to force it to go to a "real" storage card such as the SD or CF card. It really sucks. Thankfully my iPAQ 4150 doesn't have this problem...

[Jason Dunn]

Where are the phantom attachments from deleted email kept on the PPC?

If memory serves /windows/messaging

[Jason Dunn]

So far I have only seen mention of GSM / GPRS version.....any mention of CDMA? Not trolling....asking...

Nope. This device is based on the Wanda prototype from TI and it uses their chipset for GSM/GPRS/BT/WIFI. I believe they're working on a CDMA version as well, but I haven't heard of any prototypes yet, which probably means a CDMA device is a long way off...

[ultraman]

Regarding to the 64M ROM. Will the OS use part of it and let the rest for file store. Or the 64M is just for file store?

[Jason Dunn]

Regarding to the 64M ROM. Will the OS use part of it and let the rest for file store. Or the 64M is just for file store?

My assumption would be that there's another Flash ROM chip just for the OS. If it's shared, jeese, that would be horrible... :evil:

[limit]

I wish it can convert to slate configuration, I think it would be awkward to write notes or do some sketches with the keypad open.

[JonnoB]

Regarding to the 64M ROM. Will the OS use part of it and let the rest for file store. Or the 64M is just for file store?

My assumption would be that there's another Flash ROM chip just for the OS. If it's shared, jeese, that would be horrible... :evil:

Yes, there is another 32MB of ROM. The actual configuration is:

32MB of XIP ROM
32MB of RAM (program execution space other than XIP)
64MB of Storage ROM
SDIO slot for whatever storage card/peripheral you want

[ultraman]

Regarding to the 64M ROM. Will the OS use part of it and let the rest for file store. Or the 64M is just for file store?

My assumption would be that there's another Flash ROM chip just for the OS. If it's shared, jeese, that would be horrible... :evil:

Yes, there is another 32MB of ROM. The actual configuration is:

32MB of XIP ROM
32MB of RAM (program execution space other than XIP)
64MB of Storage ROM
SDIO slot for whatever storage card/peripheral you want

So where will be the OS itself placed?

[JonnoB]

So where will be the OS itself placed?

32MB XIP ROM

[daS]

That's an OK solution then, although I've run across more than one application that doesn't run properly from Flash ROM, especially input method programs. I hope developers can get their apps to work with this type of device!
While I haven't had the pleasure of testing it yet, I don't think the MPx should have this same problem.

I believe the programs that have this problem are ones that are assigned to hardware buttons and the OS doesn't get a chance to "mount" the storage media before the program fails. It's a timing issue. In this case, the flash should be mapped like the built-in RAM and therefore should not be subject to the same errors.

As an aside: I discussed this problem with at least one person in Redmond (well actually in Seattle at the Rainier Club :wink: ) and was told that the "solution" for developers of such programs is to write a small "stub" program to reside in built-in memory that responds to the hardware button(s) and then launches the real application. This should certainly work - now if only the Voice Command programmers would have done this. :roll:

PS: Jason - Congrats on the teaching position! :way to go:

[Phoenix]

Yes, there is another 32MB of ROM. The actual configuration is:

32MB of XIP ROM
32MB of RAM (program execution space other than XIP)
64MB of Storage ROM
SDIO slot for whatever storage card/peripheral you want

This would be acceptable, and based on all that's been said, if true, I think would be an excellent way of doing things. But Motorola needs to market and advertise this, so that people understand what they're truly getting. This was not identified and/or made clear in the initial post commentary.

Although, I'd like more execution space - 32MB isn't enough. 64MB would be more appropriate. I've seen individual programs take up over 20MB just by themselves. If you have a few programs running at once and you navigate between them via task manager, you could easily gulp up 32MB. 64MB would have been the way to go there, IMO.

But other than that, it looks promising. Interesting way of doing things. I like this method of mem management far more. Once again, it's clear they're thinking over there at Moto. Just bump up the execution RAM and things would be excellent.

[Jason Dunn]

This would be acceptable, and based on all that's been said, if true, I think would be an excellent way of doing things. But Motorola needs to market and advertise this, so that people understand what they're truly getting. This was not identified and/or made clear in the initial post commentary.

To be fair, Motorola isn't advertising the device yet, so you can't exactly criticize them for being vague. They're only just starting to talk about it now, and nothing in print.

Although, I'd like more execution space - 32MB isn't enough. 64MB would be more appropriate. I've seen individual programs take up over 20MB just by themselves.

Like what? I've seen the rare game that needs 15 MB of program space, but I've never personally run across anything that needs more than that. I've heard of some GPS programs that take 20 MB, but are you going to be running two of those are once? I think it's a bit alarmist to say that it needs to be 64 MB...

[mware]

This would be acceptable, and based on all that's been said, if true, I think would be an excellent way of doing things. But Motorola needs to market and advertise this, so that people understand what they're truly getting. This was not identified and/or made clear in the initial post commentary.

The reduction of RAM and increased in storage ROM is actually a Microsoft initiative. It is to address what they see as two of the biggest concerns.

1. Large amounts of RAM reduces battery performance.
2. Your average Joe user is always letting the battery run flat and losing everything. This is a real pain for corporates.

The battery performance and not losing the lot is doubly important when you have convergence such as this Moto device. Running out of battery or losing the contents of your phone wouldn't be much fun.

Having said that, I bet SQL Server is going to run like dynamite when writing to ROM... NOT! I don't think they have really thought this through. Not everyone plays Pocket Tiddlywinks and stores a few names and addresses on their PPC. These machines are capable of running sophisticated applications with large amounts of data.

Still, maybe we will finally be given a real close button to actually close applications now that we will be getting devices with less RAM. Who knows?

All I know is that there will be more and more increasingly complex programs competing for less RAM. My solution would be to keep the large amount of RAM in higher end devices, add the new ROM storage, but provide some intelligence in the OS that will write the RAM image to ROM when it deems the time to be right.

[Phoenix]

This would be acceptable, and based on all that's been said, if true, I think would be an excellent way of doing things. But Motorola needs to market and advertise this, so that people understand what they're truly getting. This was not identified and/or made clear in the initial post commentary.

To be fair, Motorola isn't advertising the device yet, so you can't exactly criticize them for being vague. They're only just starting to talk about it now, and nothing in print.

I'm not criticizing anyone. Only making a point. They're out there starting a buzz about it and leaking information, so it would be beneficial to all if they were clear about it. If JonnoB knows what's happening with the memory, then Moto obviously knows what's happening.

Although, I'd like more execution space - 32MB isn't enough. 64MB would be more appropriate. I've seen individual programs take up over 20MB just by themselves.

Like what? I've seen the rare game that needs 15 MB of program space, but I've never personally run across anything that needs more than that. I've heard of some GPS programs that take 20 MB, but are you going to be running two of those are once? I think it's a bit alarmist to say that it needs to be 64 MB...

Forgive me for saying, and perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, but are you by chance being a bit defensive tonight? My comments are not "ALARMIST". Again, only making a point. I'm referring to things such as photo enhancement programs and the like. You could easily be running a few programs when performing tasks like that. And your examples may help support my statement. It's not that it would all be used each and every day, but I remember when Bill Gates thought "640K ought to be enough for anybody'. Of course, I'm not trying to think of programs that might be out ten years from now, but this will be an expensive device, which means most people would not be so quick about replacing it, and nobody knows what programs will be out a year from now that might require a lot of memory. So I'd rather have too much than not enough. Everyone functions differently.

[davef]

The reduction of RAM and increased in storage ROM is actually a Microsoft initiative. It is to address what they see as two of the biggest concerns.

1. Large amounts of RAM reduces battery performance.
2. Your average Joe user is always letting the battery run flat and losing everything. This is a real pain for corporates.

These 2 reasons are right on. At MDC, Pat Narendra from Motorola spoke about the fact that Motorola will not be adding more than 32 MB of RAM to any future device because of battery performance. You can see his entire presentation by grabbing these slides: http://www3.mscorpevents.com/mdc/Resources/documents/BIZ206_Narendra_MOTOPro%20Innovation_for_Comnet.ppt

Look on slide 18 for the "Small RAM means longer battery life".

[daS]

I'm not criticizing anyone. Only making a point. They're out there starting a buzz about it and leaking information, so it would be beneficial to all if they were clear about it. If JonnoB knows what's happening with the memory, then Moto obviously knows what's happening.
I assume that JonnoB attended the MDC (Microsoft's Mobile Developers Conference) where a Motorola engineer discussed this new memory paradigm. Yes, Moto's engineering certainly understands the design, the only question is if the marketing types do - and can explain it to the public.

It's not that it would all be used each and every day, but I remember when Bill Gates thought "640K ought to be enough for anybody'.
If you remember that, can you give a reference? I'm not trying to "challenge you" but rather, I'd love to find a real source for this quote. Gates denies ever saying it, and as far as I know, nobody has ever produced a reference. It appears to be the most enduring urban myth of the computer industry.

Of course, I'm not trying to think of programs that might be out ten years from now, but this will be an expensive device, which means most people would not be so quick about replacing it, and nobody knows what programs will be out a year from now that might require a lot of memory. So I'd rather have too much than not enough. Everyone functions differently.
Well the type of low-power RAM used in these devices is quite expensive relative to other memory technology, so more for more's sake alone is a practical business decision. The specs for the MPx are quite crammed with features: Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, 1.2Mpixel camera, keyboard, dual displays, fancy hinged design, etc. Moto must have a "price point" they need to reach, so compromise is a requirement. It seems they compromised little, but that also means that there's probably little room for any overkill on things like RAM.

Plus, they have to leave themselves something to add to the next model after this one. :wink:

[JonnoB]

I'm not criticizing anyone. Only making a point. They're out there starting a buzz about it and leaking information, so it would be beneficial to all if they were clear about it. If JonnoB knows what's happening with the memory, then Moto obviously knows what's happening.
I assume that JonnoB attended the MDC (Microsoft's Mobile Developers Conference) where a Motorola engineer discussed this new memory paradigm. Yes, Moto's engineering certainly understands the design, the only question is if the marketing types do - and can explain it to the public.


Yes, it was at the MDC in SF that I learned and then discussed this new memory design. It was first presented by Moto in a conference session and then I later asked for and got a few more details.


It's not that it would all be used each and every day, but I remember when Bill Gates thought "640K ought to be enough for anybody'.
If you remember that, can you give a reference? I'm not trying to "challenge you" but rather, I'd love to find a real source for this quote. Gates denies ever saying it, and as far as I know, nobody has ever produced a reference. It appears to be the most enduring urban myth of the computer industry.


You are right, there has never been any attribution to Gates that could be proven, just repeated heresay. In fact, Gates once put it into context of the time with this letter. (http://backyard.homeunix.net:8080/~ben/docs/misc/640k-myth.txt)

[Phoenix]

I assume that JonnoB attended the MDC (Microsoft's Mobile Developers Conference) where a Motorola engineer discussed this new memory paradigm. Yes, Moto's engineering certainly understands the design, the only question is if the marketing types do - and can explain it to the public.

Yes, it would be Moto's responsibility to have good communication within itself - that is, between departments, as well as having a marketing department that knows how to communicate with the public, but even without over-analyzing all of this, I suppose we're stating the obvious. :wink: But I do understand what you're saying.

If you remember that, can you give a reference? I'm not trying to "challenge you" but rather, I'd love to find a real source for this quote. Gates denies ever saying it, and as far as I know, nobody has ever produced a reference. It appears to be the most enduring urban myth of the computer industry.

Interesting. We all know that sometimes people want to forget that they said something silly, which perhaps, could be why Gates denies ever having said it, but apart from spending effort trying to prove whether or not he did, the thinking behind that sort of mentality makes my point.

Well the type of low-power RAM used in these devices is quite expensive relative to other memory technology, so more for more's sake alone is a practical business decision. The specs for the MPx are quite crammed with features: Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, 1.2Mpixel camera, keyboard, dual displays, fancy hinged design, etc. Moto must have a "price point" they need to reach, so compromise is a requirement. It seems they compromised little, but that also means that there's probably little room for any overkill on things like RAM.

I wouldn't add more memory just for "more's sake", but for practical reasons. And I would hardly call 64MB "overkill". But I do understand your point, and it's an excellent point - certainly one to consider.

One has to wonder if they had price point much in mind with a device that might sell close to a grand! :lol:

Plus, they have to leave themselves something to add to the next model after this one. :wink:

Oh, so true. So true.

:beer:

[jamisonw]

Seems like a big mistake to release a tri band phone. It won't work with Cingular/AT&T unless it supports 850MHz. I was going to take a serious look, but I guess the only phone that will work for me is going to be the new iPaq...

[Janak Parekh]

Seems like a big mistake to release a tri band phone. It won't work with Cingular/AT&T unless it supports 850MHz.
I'm hoping/expecting that there will be a 800/1800/1900 version...

--janak

[daS]

Seems like a big mistake to release a tri band phone. It won't work with Cingular/AT&T unless it supports 850MHz. I was going to take a serious look, but I guess the only phone that will work for me is going to be the new iPaq...
Generally with tri-band phones these days, the selection of 850 or 900 MHz becomes based on the region and/or carrier. So if ATTW (soon to be Cingular) elects to offer this phone, Moto could easily support them.

[jamisonw]

Sounds fair. At least I could use the device if I so choose. Must be more difficult that I imagine to just make quad band phones unlocked so you can move freely between carriers or regions with different sim cards. Seems like HP figured that out. I would be more inclined to buy a product like that because I might want to use a different carrier and I would want my device to work in another country or whatever. I have a Seimens SX56 which is a single band device that I paid $600 for on AT&T's promise that their GSM network was about to get much better. It did, but on a frequency my device won't support. Suddenly AT&T doesn't offer the device anymore because it is nearly useless (I get extremely bad coverage). I want a device that will work on as many towers as possible anywhere that is unlocked for any sim card. AT&T won't do anything for those of us who have been stranded with a worthless $600 device except send us one of the "freebie" dual band cheapy phones that work on both their GSM frequencies. Thanks, but that's not what I paid for. I learned my lesson the expensive way.

[Ryan Joseph]

I wish it can convert to slate configuration, I think it would be awkward to write notes or do some sketches with the keypad open.
This is exactly what I was thinking! This and the small screen make the device less appealing. I don't think I'll go for it. When I use a PPC, I want to hold it in one hand with the stylus in the other. This form factor would make that hard.

[clbsvi]

Does anybody have a clue about this gadget's battery life during serious extended daily use ?? To the point: What is expected standby time from full charge and talk time, ditto ?? Such considerations together with a likely "total price with all accessories" make me lean toward a larger Centrino notebook coupled to a regular cell phone. IMHO, the MPx is a technical tour-de-force, but most likely will be an excessively expensive, "buy-and-try, and then put it away" in favor of more practical and reliable conventional devices. For simple web access, either a Blackberry or Hiptop/Danger type pager gadget seems to make more sense at less cost. BTW, does anyone remember Motorola's abortive experiment with satellite cell phones. Motorola is usually pretty good technologically, but not always infallible.

[Phoenix]

The reduction of RAM and increased in storage ROM is actually a Microsoft initiative. It is to address what they see as two of the biggest concerns.

1. Large amounts of RAM reduces battery performance.
2. Your average Joe user is always letting the battery run flat and losing everything. This is a real pain for corporates.

These 2 reasons are right on. At MDC, Pat Narendra from Motorola spoke about the fact that Motorola will not be adding more than 32 MB of RAM to any future device because of battery performance. You can see his entire presentation by grabbing these slides: http://www3.mscorpevents.com/mdc/Resources/documents/BIZ206_Narendra_MOTOPro%20Innovation_for_Comnet.ppt

Look on slide 18 for the "Small RAM means longer battery life".

The idea for extra ROM to store programs safely in the event of battery power loss and hard resets, is very smart. I agree with that concept whole-heartedly and have no debate about that part of memory. But apart from ROM, I have to take issue with what you're saying Pat said (or with what Pat did say), for a couple of reasons...

First, on slide 19, it also states to "Look to natural memory progression - 128MB - 256MB for onboard memory. This would seem like a contadiction to what you say Pat said. I mean, not to say that all this extra memory would all be for RAM, of course, but it would make sense to think that at least a portion of it would be.

Second, Moto (as well as others) will put more RAM in their devices, and I'll tell you why. Device software will always need more and more RAM memory to function as time progresses and software becomes increasingly sophisticated, which is the most obvious reason more than 32MB will be required. This is the way it always has been, currently is, and will always be. So for someone to say "there will never be more RAM" is short sighted and silly. Also, improved battery technology and life are already being developed, and when finally introduced, will negate the need for limits on RAM.

When devices first started out, they had hardly no memory, but have continued to grow steadily. This will always be the case with both ROM and RAM.