OS Upgrades & Updates – What the OEMs Owe You [Archive]

Jonathon Watkins

04-08-2004, 05:00 AM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=articles&id=37' target='_blank'>http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?...=articles&id=37</a> </div>Christopher Spera, at PocketNow has written a thought proving article about the recent <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26300&">HP</a> and <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26192&start=0">Dell decisions </a> not<a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26274&start=0"> to offer</a> Windows 2003 Second edition upgrades to owners of current units, even if they were capable able of running it. We even get a namecheck in Christopher's atricle at one point. :D He starts with the basics: "There is one subtle term definition difference that I want to point out. A ROM Update is NOT an Operating System Upgrade. An update is a patch, support file, or other same/ current OS file that may or may not flash a devices ROM. Some updates are RAM updates. Some updates flash a device's ROM. The delivery is left to the device OEM. An Operating System upgrade is just like taking your desktop PC from Windows 98 to Windows XP. Not every PC got a WinXP upgrade. Not every PC was capable of being upgraded. The same can be said for Pocket PC's. However, an OS Upgrade will ALWAYS be a ROM update, and will always, always, ALWAYS require you to hard reset the device after applying it." So, that's three 'always', hold the exclamation marks. :wink: "Any decent device OEM, despite the fact that they are not required to provide OS-device implemented bug fixes and patches, will provided them. HP is a shining example of this. They are constantly working to improve the functioning of their devices and continually provide support files and updates throughout the products documented life cycle. For example, HP recently released WM2003 ROM Updates for both the 2200 and 1940 series Pocket PC's. Honestly, I would expect this level of support from any and EVERY device manufacturer. Microsoft releases fixes and patches for Pocket PC OS all the time; but it is up to the individual device OEM to take those fixes and pull them into a build and distribution of their device's ROM. Not all OEM's are created equally." How very true. The petitions for the attention of <a href="http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=aximgensw&message.id=8655&view=by_date_ascending&page=1">Dell</a> and <a href="http://www.petitiononline.com/IPAQ1940/">HP</a> are still growing strongly. Firms (that survive) do tend to listen to their customers, but, do they communicate well? "However, the one thing that you're really entitled to...The one thing that Casio did with WM2003 for its E200; AND the one thing that Samsung/ Verizon and Pa1mOne have NOT done for their customers, is clear, honest, decisive, and timely communication. When Windows Mobile 2003's release was all the rage and every Pocket PC owner was curious about their specific device and if it was going to get an upgrade, Casio came out and quickly stated that it would NOT provide and update for the E200. It made a lot of E200 owners unhappy, but, as Casio explained, they weren't making the device any more, and it didn't make financial sense for them to provide an upgrade for a device that was no longer being manufactured. I can't blame them. Casio got out of Pocket PC's entirely..." Which was a sad day as they had made a lot of excellent devices. Back on topic, what do you think of the level of support you are getting from your PPC manufacturer, including the OS upgrading/updating issues? Are you happy with them & would you buy from them again?

Mitch D

04-08-2004, 05:25 AM

jpaq

04-08-2004, 05:46 AM

Good article but I think he's missing one key point; with a PC I can go out and buy an update to the next OS if my system will take it. By being forced to get OS updates from the PPC maker there is a certain implied understanding that they will make upgrades available to units that will run it.

But like PC OS upgrades we should have to pay a reasonable price for that upgrade. I have gotten over my annoyance with Dell; will I buy from them again? Depends on what they have to offer and for what price

I agree with Mitch.
Comparing PC's and PDA's is not a reasonable match-up.

As Mitch said. If my PC is capable, according to system requirements, I can go buy WinXP Pro and install it on my PC.

In the case of the PPC/Windows Mobile PDA, one of the stated, and in many cases advertised, requirements was upgradeability. If you'regoing to offer it, even advertise it, and you are the only possible source for it, you have an obligation to deliver it.

With the PC, I can install the OS, apply the new drivers for the various I/O devices, and move on.
With a PPC, I am dependent on the OEM for access to the ROM they use. The OS is dependent on the hardware that they use, and they are the only source for the drivers of their I/O devices.

If you are going to offer, and tout upgradeability and you are the only possible source of the upgrade, you are obligated to offer the upgrade.

On the support subject, it can be argued that a device that is in need of a patch or fix, etc. is defective, and through the warranty, the manufacturer is obligated to support or fix it.

Enough of this cr*&.
I think that there is one thing we can learn from this. In the best expression of the capitalist ideology, Compaq/HP is at the top of the PDA heap for several reasons, not the least of which is their ongoing support of their products and their willingness to make good on the upgradeability feature.

This is one reason why there is more than a strong chance that my next PDA will be an Ipaq.

Then again, that's just my two cents. Please see the lady at the window if you'd like your change or a refund. :mrgreen:

ppcsurfr

04-08-2004, 06:01 AM

Did I miss anything?

Casio did NOT pull out of the Pocket PC industry... well, at least in Japan... but if you are talking about the consumer PPCs for world wide consumption... then I guess they did...

Carlo

bigkingfun

04-08-2004, 06:38 AM

I agree with some of the other posts that you can't compare PCs and PPCs directly. While I do think there are some differences between the two markets, I don't agree that the manufacturers are obligated to provide an upgrade to the OS.

Essentially, the manufacturer provides all the device drivers and hardware-specific code that is necessary to run the PPC. They need to write the corresponding code to make the OS upgrade work. By comparison, in the PC world, you have many manufacturers writing code (drivers primarily) to make their products work with an OS upgrade. While you can install an upgrade to Windows, you often have to track down updated drivers for your peripherals in order to make it all work. There have been many instances over the years where manufacturer have not provided driver upgrades for new versions of Windows. In most cases, these decisions affected older products, but once in a while you will find a manufacturer that chooses not to update a driver for a recent, or even a current product.

The basic difference is that in the PC world, a single manufacturer's decision to not support a new version of Windows doesn't stop you from upgrading. You have a choice to not upgrade, not use that product any more or replace it with something compatible. In the PPC world, a single manufacturer's decision to not support the OS upgrade means you can't upgrade period.

Having said all that, I think it is a poor business decision for a manufacturer to not upgrade a device that is technically capable of running the new version, particularly when that device is either current or very recent. I was a happy Toshiba e740 owner until they left me out in the cold. I would never buy another Toshiba PPC again. I've had 3 iPAQs, and because I am quite happy with HP's support, I'll likely have more.

Chris Spera

04-08-2004, 06:43 AM

Mitch makes a good point here... however the idea I was trying to get across is that PDA's are becoming more common place (I see them around town all the time...)

My idea was NOT to compare a PC to a PPC, but to give everyone a reference they could understand. Upgrading your desktop PC's OS is something that most everyone can relate to. Some novice PPC owners have asked me why they can't use one OS Upgrade on their PPC when it was made for another. I wanted to make certain that everyone could understand the BASIS that I was speaking from...Nothing more...AND I didn't want to belabor the issue.

I really DIDN"T compare a PPC to a Desktop PC. But I can see where it could be read that way...

Kind Regards,

Christopher Spera
-------
pocketnow Contributing Editor & Columnist

pocketnow.com -- it's all about portability...
http://www.pocketnow.com

dangerwit

04-08-2004, 06:58 AM

Once again, I find myself on the same page as Chris. (Sorry, lemme clean off my nose) On pdaphonehome, we've complained about this on our i700s incessantly. Ridiculous.

Companies are companies. They don't HAVE to care about what we want, but we all know that's self-destructive. They have to see value in providing support for their devices. My hope is that as time progresses, HP really takes a public stance about their devices being upgradeable and really starts putting the pressure on the competition; I agree, HP is tops on the list for this discussion (though they could do better). I'm talking like, a-big-guy-named-Bubba-falling-on-you kind of pressure.

Still, Average Joe doesn't probably care about being able to stay current. But if the vendors start making it a big deal, Average Joe may see the payoff.

The biggest mistake these vendors make is staying silent. I respect Casio's action, though I wouldn't have liked it if I were an owner. But they took a stand and quickly. We're STILL STILL STILL waiting to hear about the i700 and going to 2003 (not SE mind you). For shame.

Anyway, I've been looking into replacing my i700 phone, and the MPx looks great, yet the ipaq 6xxx has that support behind it, and I guarantee you that plays a factor in my decision very heavily. I will NOT buy another Samsung, nor likely a Verizon phone, simply because of this. If a company wants to treat me like a 2-year-old, then they can go eat poop, I'll take my $600+ elsewhere. ;)

*Phil

freitasm

04-08-2004, 07:08 AM

Pa1mOne

OT. I know you're quoting, but why people insist in writing this instead of the real name PalmOne. It's a lower case L not a number 1. :roll:

surur

04-08-2004, 08:28 AM

freitasm

04-08-2004, 08:58 AM

Pa1mOne

OT. I know you're quoting, but why people insist in writing this instead of the real name PalmOne. It's a lower case L not a number 1. :roll:

Maybe because it is a one?

http://www.palmone.com/intl/images/wrapper/logo_whiteorange.gif
pa1m0ne
vs
palmOne

See? The one with the 1 and zero is closer.

Surur

It's just the stupid font and effect that stupid marketing people decided to create. Visit http://www.palmone.com (see, it's an L not 1) and check the source of their pages. It's PalmOne everywhere.

corrosive

04-08-2004, 09:34 AM

HP is a shining example of this. They are constantly working to improve the functioning of their devices and continually provide support files and updates throughout the products documented life cycle.

I bought a 3970 less than a year ago and then I bought the WM2003 update for it about six months ago - and there's been a noticable absence of bugfixes for it, even though there are plenty of known bugs. I was hoping an EUU update would appear, but now WM2003SE has appeared, I really doubt it. This is one of the reasons I hoped HP would still support the 3970 for one last update, especially seeing as WM2003SE isn't really a full OS update, more a .5 step. I bought a 3970 because my 3630 had been so well supported - the 2002 update for that /did/ get bugfixes. Suffice to say I'll be wary of buying from HP next time because of this.

All I can say is roll-on the day when Microsoft make PPC OS updates available directly to end users.

Jaap van Ees

04-08-2004, 09:40 AM

There is indeed a lot of good to be said about HP products and their support. I have been using Psions and, later, iPaq's since day one, upgrading ROM and RAM when updates became available, and devices when I wanted to stay current.

But HP's decision not to release a WM2003SE-upgrade for my iPaq 5450 really pisses me off. I can't even buy one if I wanted. Sure, I can see HP cannot provide updates/grades for all their devices all of the time. But the 5450 is 16 months old and can hardly be considered a legacy-device.

At this point in time, I see no other reason than the OS-upgrade (which I DO want) to trade in my 5450 for a newer device. Yes, I know there are such reasons for some, but for me there aren't. So, by refusing me, a loyal customer, an OS-upgrade, even a paid one, HP forces me to buy a newer machine.

I will do this, but it will certainly NOT be a HP-device. :evil:

Jonathon Watkins

04-08-2004, 11:43 AM

Pa1mOne

OT. I know you're quoting, but why people insist in writing this instead of the real name PalmOne. It's a lower case L not a number 1. :roll:

You are correct, I am quoting and therefore I won't change a jot or tittle. I may insert a 'sic' where I feel it's appropriate though. :wink:

The problem with the updates is that there isn't a single OEM (apart from Asus perhaps) who has not left some devices unsupported regarding upgrades/updates. I've been burned by Dell, others by HP, others by Toshiba etc. All we can do is keep on making our voices heard and voting with our wallets. In the end, we will get the level of support we ask for..... one way or the other.

Jonathon Watkins

04-08-2004, 11:47 AM

At this point in time, I see no other reason than the OS-upgrade (which I DO want) to trade in my 5450 for a newer device. Yes, I know there are such reasons for some, but for me there aren't. So, by refusing me, a loyal customer, an OS-upgrade, even a paid one, HP forces me to buy a newer machine.

I will do this, but it will certainly NOT be a HP-device. :evil:

And there's the rub. If manufactures do not support the devices, they will lose business.

I would happily pay for a Dell Axim X5 PPC2003SE Upgrade - that's fair. But I am not being offered one, for a current PDA. So, I have to doubt that I will buy from Dell again. Why should I if they don't support thier customers?

ctitanic

04-08-2004, 01:30 PM

Toshiba (puh-tuhy! May they rot in hell...) has completely abandoned every Pocket PC they ever manufactured, except their current e800 line. I'm not too certain they won't do the same thing with that line of PPC's as soon as they release a new line, so be careful when you purchase a Toshiba Pocket PC. They rarely, if ever, release updates, fixes or patches for their Pocket PC's; and usually have to be threatened, ganged up on, or otherwise harassed in order to get them to do ANYTHING. Toshiba is the epitome of poor Pocket PC Support (may their names be forever cursed...) Yeah... I used to own a Toshiba PPC. Never again...
Toshiba (I'd spit again, but I'm out...) argued this to its customers. They begrudgingly released PPC2002 EUU2 and EUU3 updates for most of their PPC's, all the while claiming that they really didn't HAVE to, but did due to customer pressure.

Bravo Chris... well said. I'm printing this portion to hang it in the head side of my bed. :D And in the meantime I have posted them at my site about e740/50s www.pc-counselor.com/e740.htm ;)

Bill Gunn

04-08-2004, 02:23 PM

...

But HP's decision not to release a WM2003SE-upgrade for my iPaq 5450 really pisses me off. I can't even buy one if I wanted. Sure, I can see HP cannot provide updates/grades for all their devices all of the time. But the 5450 is 16 months old and can hardly be considered a legacy-device.

At this point in time, I see no other reason than the OS-upgrade (which I DO want) to trade in my 5450 for a newer device. Yes, I know there are such reasons for some, but for me there aren't. So, by refusing me, a loyal customer, an OS-upgrade, even a paid one, HP forces me to buy a newer machine.

I will do this, but it will certainly NOT be a HP-device. :evil:

Yes! Especially when your talking about a PDA that sold for $699 when it was released. When people pay for a "top of the line" model they have a right to expect better than average support.

ctitanic

04-08-2004, 02:37 PM

May be many people do not remember that time because they did not have a PPC back them but ex-Owners of PPCs or PalmSize like Casios e100, e105, HP Jornadas, and even the HPC2000 Jornada will remember what I´m about to say... when the first PPCs with reflashable ROM started to be released all OEMs were writting that fact in BOLD in each PPCs box that they were sending to stores over the world. But now they want us to think that Reflashable ROM means that you can install patches and fixes but new OSs.

Ok, that´s ok for me. But when you are about to spend 600 dollars in a device I think we should have the right to know what would be the update and upgrade strategy for that device. And that´s what I´m asking and I believe Chris does too.

I know that it´s hard to know today if the next wm2k5 could be installed in any of the today devices. But I´m sure that more or less Microsoft can know how much ROM will be needed and work together with the OEMs in an upgrade strategy. They did that once already with the 3635s which is a good example of what I just above said about the first PPCs with reflashable ROM. The 3635 was one of the first, one of those with the BOLD letters ;) and this is why MS and Compaq did the impossible to have that unit upgraded to 2002. They flashed a 24 MB ROM file in a 16 MB ROM... yes, they did cut the ROM in pieces and part of it had to be installed in RAM but... come on, we now know that that idea was just GREAT, right now I´m trying to figure out how to delete the WMP from my ROM and when I had my 3635, that was so simple as no installing it in my RAM :D

yawanag

04-08-2004, 03:17 PM

I wish I had read this article before I upgraded I upgraded and had nothing but problems with it formatting everything on my SD Card. I was sent a replacement device from T-Mobile and I swear the repalcement was a unit that was returned from someone that was having the same problem I was having.

The second device performed a hard reset with every Power On. And again, after sitting for hours reinstalling and reentering reg. codes, etc. my SD Card was formatted.

I received another device and it does not have WM2003. I refuse to install it. I guess I will have 2002 until I decide to purchase another device and from the experience with T-Mobile my next device might be the Motorola MPX 300. There are two things that's a turn off to the MPX 300 for me and that is the low memory and the keyboard.

Jonathan1

04-08-2004, 07:12 PM

Here's the thing. When Windows XP came out anything under 2-3 years of age could run Windows XP. If an OEM was stating otherwise they were/are full of it. Similarly the Pocket PC's various incarnations made by Dell, HP, Toshiba, etc all can run PPC2003SE. The big difference is its not like the hardware can't run it. They are just making a conscious choice not to run it. Beyond that a few of the vendors have set precedence of upgrade to the latest and greatest Pocket PC iteration this puts the consumer in the position to somewhat hope if not expect an upgrade. Precedence was set not only in the past (Starting with the very first iPaq.) but even in the resent past with those upgrades at the developer conf last month. So we know at least HP and Dell have some form of working ROM on these devices. This screams the notion that OEMs are trying to screw their customer over by forcing them to buy the latest and greatest when it actuality its NOT needed. This is part of the reason why people are irked. Also its not like we aren't willing to shell out some cash on an upgrade. So its not like the various OEM couldn't recoup development costs. Again. Smells like greed to me.
Or maybe not. *shrugs* That's how I see it.

sracer

04-08-2004, 09:11 PM

IMO, unless a manufacturer states that it will provide an OS upgrade, consumers should NOT assume that one will be forthcoming. Buy it based on the "here-n-now" at the time of purchase.

Companies will only respond to monetary pressures. That means avoiding purchasing that $600 top-shelf PPC. I have to laugh at people who bought Toshiba's e80x devices and are beginning to worry about an upgrade to WM2003SE. With all of the hullabaloo over the lack of upgrades for their previous devices, they made their latest Toshiba purchases with their eyes wide open.

The competition in the PPC arena is really heating up. Companies are doing everything they can to edge out their competition. Features, price,and quick turnaround with new models... something has to give. Supporting yesterday's device doesn't bring any new revenue. It is a net expense for the company.

Now, you may say that lack of upgrades will drive customers away when they are ready to upgrade, however there is loose collusion among the companies to NOT provide upgrades as a general practice. So who are you going to go to?

The only thing to do is to stop upgrading your devices, stay with what you have, send mail to those companies and explain why you refuse to play the hardware churn game.

I'm pretty confident that an SE upgrade will be available for my iPAQ 2215. But if there isn't, I'll just ride out the usefulness of it until I'm ready to move on.

Jonathan1

04-08-2004, 09:51 PM

The competition in the PPC arena is really heating up. Companies are doing everything they can to edge out their competition. Features, price,and quick turnaround with new models... something has to give. Supporting yesterday's device doesn't bring any new revenue. It is a net expense for the company.

It's not an expense if they charge for it. It's a pretty good bet that Compaq and HP have made up the limited development costs that they incur by charging for the upgrade which many are perfectly happy to do. I say limited because god knows HP and Dell sure cranked out those ROMs fast as heck for that development conf. If Dell had/has no intention of releasing the OS for existing devices why would they spend the time creating a ROM update for a simple developer conf? It suggests that there is some native out of the box support for these devices and that there many only be some marginal tweaking and driver updates needed to get full support running. Admittedly that is pure speculation but its definitely possible.

Again many if not most people expect support for Microsoft's next Windows OS if their system is only 1-2 years old. In fact I've yet to see Windows not be either partly or fully supported on some of the bigger name companies. (e.g. Dell, HP, Sony, Gateway, Toshiba.) We don't expect upgrades on these devices because that has always been how things work. PDA's up til now hardly ever received upgrades. It's only been in the last 7 or so years that the technology (Other then doing surgery on the system.) has been around to flash these devices. Its changing the mindset that these systems are closed never to be alter devices is where the problem lies. We aren’t talking about Palm's here people. The capabilities to upgrade are there.

I don't know the underpinnings of the Pocket PC so forgive some of the assumptions that are about to follow. Correct me when appropriate.
The biggest difference, AFAICT, between the Windows XP upgrade and a PPC upgrade is where the OS comes from. I can go to Best Buy grab a copy of Windows XP go home and load it on my system. The only support the average OEM needs to do is typically video, audio, NIC, chipset, and maybe controller card and CD/DVD ROM drivers. Almost everything else it ready to go out of the box.
Compare that to a PPC where literally everything is handled by the OEM. In the case of a PPC upgrade its literally 1 button and you are, HOPEFULLY, done. There is obviously some tweaking that needs to be done to customize it to the specific hardware just as drivers have to sometimes be developed for a Windows XP upgrade.
The question remains. Why is it Dell and company can provide support for a newer version of Windows on hardware, at least for me, that is 4 years old. Yet they balk at providing the same service for a PDA. Again I think it comes from the mindset that PDA's have one OS on them and that's it. That and as I said before. Greed. Its easier to say screw an upgrade or even an upgrade for $X and let the user go buy a new system and make 8 times as much off the sale.

nic

04-09-2004, 12:15 AM

Please sign the petition for the HP 1940 ;) !
(I would REALLY REALLY REALLY like to see an update)

Thanks!

sracer

04-09-2004, 01:42 AM

The $39 or so that gets charged for upgrades doesn't anywhere NEAR cover the costs associated with development and testing it.

As for the comparison between desktop Windows support and Pocket PC is not really a valid one.

desktop Windows is more modular... you have the base Windows XP and then individual drivers for specific hardware. The underlying Windows found in Pocket PCs is a monolithic entity. There isn't some standard "shrinkwrap" base upon which hardware specific drivers get added on. The code has to be compiled with the hardware support embedded. Sure there is a driver model for stuff like CF WiFi cards, modems, etc. But base hardware support is embedded in the OS image.

gorkon280

04-09-2004, 03:07 AM

OK here's the problem...Pocket PC's WERE ADVERTISED WITH FLASH ROM! Here's another....Zaurus also have flash roms. TODAY I can go and get a Zaurus SL 6000 (ok, maybe not today, but soon) and in the near future, get Open Zaurus installed. Then I don't depend on Sharp for anything. I would probably wait til the warantee is up, but after that, I don't need em anymore. The current way of doing PPC is DUMB and STUPID. Microsoft should fix this damn thing and just start releasing it with a llist of suggested devices and maybe even a image for each device. You KNOW they must have done this on some of the OS releases. I don't accept that the devices are so different that a general install could not be done. If they are, then they need to fix it and fix it soon. Palm is catching up. Microsoft still has and advantage, but if they want to keep the PDA Power users, they need to fix this thing now. Otherwise, when it's time for my next device, it may be a Zaurus, or a Treo 600 or even a Tapwave Zodiac. Note, I AIN'T ASKING that all devices be supported for free..... I am just asking that I be given the opportunity to GIVE them money. I give them a little now and alot later when I am ready to upgrade.[/i][/list]

Jonathan1

04-09-2004, 04:02 AM

The $39 or so that gets charged for upgrades doesn't anywhere NEAR cover the costs associated with development and testing it.

How do you know this?

Chris Spera

04-09-2004, 06:34 AM

The $39 or so that gets charged for upgrades doesn't anywhere NEAR cover the costs associated with development and testing it.

How do you know this?

I can tell you flat out... it doesn't. The problem isn't just development costs...its testing, deployment, and most of all, support. Factor all that into it, and you're done. I don't care how much an OEM charges for an upgrade, they lose money.

Here's the other thing...

Microsoft sets the minimum specs for a device. This includes a flash ROM, and other open specs for serial/USB, SDRAM implementation, graphics, etc. This makes the device a COMPUTER, and most OEM's don't want you to think of a Pocket PC as a computer. They want you to think of it as an APPLIANCE. Computers get upgraded and people make them last 3-5 years or more. When the technology changes, a computer probably will be able to change with it and, uh-hem, assimilate it.

Appliances are stand alone devices. When you want new functionality, new technology, you go out and buy a new appliance... I mean, when was the last time you upgraded your toaster? You didn't. You bought a new one.

OEM's are fighting against the specs that MS issued. Let's face it (and I'll use my favorite PPC, the one I love ot hate and hate to love, the Samsung i700), when Samsung released this thing, it was with "proprietary device" written all over it. Proprietary serial port, proprietary RAM, under powered processor (when a more powerful processor was MORE than available...) Samsung doesn't want the i700 to be upgradable. They want you to buy a new device...a new toaster. PPC OEM's don't make spit on the software they release/ support for their devices. Their money is made on device sales, and they're going to do EVERYTHING they can to make that happen.

Period.

And that's the real story, kids. So, be VERY happy when your device OEM releases an upgrade. By all means, make them support their device. It should work the way it was intended to, and (in my case...) Samsung and Verizon need to get their SH*T together and make the updates happen; but as far as an upgrade is concerned, I don't know if that will EVER happen...

Jaap van Ees

04-09-2004, 07:24 AM

I understand all this reasoning about OEM's making money :) on device sales. And spending money :( on support. Yes, it is a tough market.

Fact is, OEM's use the "upgradeability" of their products to convince all types of consumers (not just early adopters with cash to spend) that it is "safe" to buy their emerging and rather expensive products. So they advertise the amount of RAM and ROM. Consumers tend to believe that, buy those products and expect the upgrades/dates. Well, not forever, consumers aren't that stupid, but for a reasonable amount of time. Let's say two to three years. Plenty of time to save up for the next purchase, even though they have to spend some money on upgrades.

Now what if OEM's decide to spend less money on support and stop doing what they promised and what consumers have come to expect?
The OEM's save money, but lose consumers trust. Consumers will indeed, as some have reasoned, stick to their "old" devices as long as possible. They will spend less or no money on new devices. So, in the somewhat longer run, the OEM's will have saved a little money, but will lose a chunk of the market.

OEM's may ask themselves how to get out of this? A suggestion. Do as you promised (or implied), and support the people who bought your products. Never lose consumers trust. Then start selling new devices, that are updateable but not upgradeable. Be up front about the fact that you will fix problems, but not provide new OS's. And make those devices a lot cheaper!

marcelol

04-09-2004, 04:35 PM

"Microsoft sets the minimum specs for a device. This includes a flash ROM, and other open specs for serial/USB, SDRAM implementation, graphics, etc. This makes the device a COMPUTER, and most OEM's don't want you to think of a Pocket PC as a computer. They want you to think of it as an APPLIANCE. Computers get upgraded and people make them last 3-5 years or more. When the technology changes, a computer probably will be able to change with it and, uh-hem, assimilate it.

Appliances are stand alone devices. When you want new functionality, new technology, you go out and buy a new appliance... I mean, when was the last time you upgraded your toaster? You didn't. You bought a new one."

--------------------------

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Unless somehow the hardware OEM's have gone into the Oxford English dictionary and redefined what the definition of an appliance is. While I won't bore you with the actual definition of the word, the fact is that until my washing machine CAN be reprogrammed to produce a mouth-watering rib roast, or my toaster can get my socks whiter, the definition of an "appliance" cannot ( in any logical thinking person's mind ) be attributed to a PPC.

So, while I am MORE than happy that TMobile (finally) decided in their infinite wisdom to release an upgrade to WM2003 for my PPC PE, it bugs me that a release had been more than available for a year, and had been much in use in Europe. Odd they would do it about a WEEK, before MS announces WM2003 2nd Ed. Hmmm....Just the same, I think that TMobile has MORE than made up for my investment in their device or their service. And keeping me as a customer ( and others like me ) is a wise investment on their part, as I'm sure there are VERY few users who HAVEN'T already upgraded their PPC PE to WM2003.

As a developer, I think I know just a "little bit" about the cost of development and support. The packages that OEM's get for PPC's aren't so much as a jigsaw puzzle as you make it sound. If it were so difficult, then places like XDA-DEVELOPER wouldn't be so WILDLY popular. The fact is that to actually "put a build" together, isn't really that tough, people even have a build process where you can put together a build for the PPC PE...online.

I don't think the "support" issue is so big a factor either, because most OEM's websites have FAQ's, download directories, readme's, install procedure docs, to cover most of the basic "support" based questions. The upgrade procedure for most devices is pretty straight forward, and the number of folks who I've seen reporting problems upgrading their devices are the one's who had played around with "rolled your own" builds before upgrading to a "released" build. Those folks usually have already ventured off into "void your warranty" land long before a "released" update, and you know what the good support folks for "Acme OEM" are going to say to that.

The real cost is in testing. That's where I would imagine that OEM's would probably have a lab ( or a couple ) where there would be engineers testing out different parts of the upgrade, against their hardware. Just the same, Acme OEM wouldn't be the FIRST OEM, to post flash bios upgrades on a "Caveat Emptor" basis. For that matter, they could set up a "beta" just like every other software manufacturer, where people in the field do their testing for them.

I'm sorry Chris, I just don't agree with you. My cordless phone at home is an appliance, and it COSTS what an appliance should cost. My PPC PE is NOT an appliance, since it similarly, DIDN'T cost what an "appliance" costs. Then again, you don't see me drying my clothes in the crisper bin of my refridgerator. It's going to take A LOT for the minds of people to change their perception of what an "appliance" is if it costs more than $100. That's usually the level attributed to "impulse buys", and is why most of your entry level mp3 players and such, are considered appliances. People buying IPODs at 300-500 a crack certainly DON'T think their players are "appliances", such much so that some made a movie about the inability of being able to upgrade the battery in it. Maybe some of us in the PPC community should do the same ?

Let me close by saying that people who pay $600 for an appliance don't exactly go out and buy another $600 appliance ( at least not unless they have $$$ money to burn ) in a couple of years because the firmware in the digital display was upgraded to include a power saving feature that turns off the backlight on the display panel, just to conserve electricity.

That being said, $39 is a small price to pay, so people shouldn't WHINE about it, especially if they put it up for 30 days to update for free.

Jacob

04-09-2004, 04:55 PM

I'm sorry Chris, I just don't agree with you. My cordless phone at home is an appliance, and it COSTS what an appliance should cost. My PPC PE is NOT an appliance, since it similarly, DIDN'T cost what an "appliance" costs.

You're making the argument that cost defines an appliance, yet before you admitted that a washing machine was an appliance - which can cost more than a PPC easily. Appliances aren't impulse buys. You can also not upgrade an iPod so how is that like a PPC?

If you buy an appliance for $600 you don't go and buy another in a few weeks to get the firmware upgraded, but appliances such as washing machines aren't offered upgrades! That's the attitude the manufacturers want to establish.

I don't think Chris is saying that a PPC IS an appliance, but manufacturers WANT you to see it as one.

I do think if the manufacturers of PPCs want to do this then they should communicate it much more clearly. I.E. don't say it has an "upgradeable" ROM or at the very least publish a clear upgrade policy and stick to it.

sracer

04-09-2004, 04:55 PM

The $39 or so that gets charged for upgrades doesn't anywhere NEAR cover the costs associated with development and testing it.

How do you know this?

I've worked in (and continue to work in) the industry for over 20 years. I have firsthand knowledge of the costs associated with the development, deployment, and support of software upgrades in general, and mobile solutions in particular.

And you can't cut corners... it is disasterous! Dell cut corners when they released the Axim preloaded with WM2003. It is obvious that they either (A) cut out their QA testing phase or (B) made an executive decision to release a product that had known "show-stopper" problems in order to make a committed target date. The result: 2 months of sales where every Axim sold was defective and had to be returned or later upgraded. The associated costs with that decision to ship are staggering.

sracer

04-09-2004, 05:05 PM

I understand all this reasoning about OEM's making money :) on device sales. And spending money :( on support. Yes, it is a tough market.

Fact is, OEM's use the "upgradeability" of their products to convince all types of consumers (not just early adopters with cash to spend) that it is "safe" to buy their emerging and rather expensive products.

Really? Can you provide me with a link to a manufacturer's site that indicates that "upgradeability" is a selling point?

Now granted, I didn't do an exhaustive search, but I visited Toshiba's site, and HP's, and no where did I find a place where they claimed that they are upgradeable.

So they advertise the amount of RAM and ROM. Consumers tend to believe that, buy those products and expect the upgrades/dates.

You can expect that buying a Pocket PC will help your hair grow back too, but that doesn't mean that it is a reasonable expectation... or that the company should be on the hook for fulfilling that expectation.

I find it amazing that in this age of hyper-consumerism, people are even LESS saavy consumers than they were years ago.

Jacob

04-09-2004, 05:22 PM

I know in many places they do specify the amount of ROM available.

I was just checking the HP site and the specs for the HP 1940 and they don't even list the amount of ROM it has, nor any implication that it's upgradable.

Even the HP specs for the 4155 doesn't say anything about the ROM available.

jkendrick

04-09-2004, 06:10 PM

PPC Phone Edition and SmartPhone devices are different from regular PPCs in that they must also undergo FCC approval. This makes OS updates more complicated than regular PPCs.

Jaap van Ees

04-09-2004, 06:52 PM

I understand all this reasoning about OEM's making money :) on device sales. And spending money :( on support. Yes, it is a tough market.

Fact is, OEM's use the "upgradeability" of their products to convince all types of consumers (not just early adopters with cash to spend) that it is "safe" to buy their emerging and rather expensive products.

Really? Can you provide me with a link to a manufacturer's site that indicates that "upgradeability" is a selling point?

Guess why the tech specs mention the amount of RAM and ROM. So people know there's a space they can't use? Of course not. It is because at the time of the release of the 2K2 OS older units didn't have enough ROM to upgrade. It was all over the PPC-sites. Even this one. That's when OEM's started mentioning the amount of ROM on their products.

So they advertise the amount of RAM and ROM. Consumers tend to believe that, buy those products and expect the upgrades/dates.

You can expect that buying a Pocket PC will help your hair grow back too, but that doesn't mean that it is a reasonable expectation... or that the company should be on the hook for fulfilling that expectation.

See above. Nobody mentions nor expects hair. But the amount of ROM mattered, all because of the upgradeability of the devices.

I find it amazing that in this age of hyper-consumerism, people are even LESS saavy consumers than they were years ago.

Does this mean that a consumer is savvy if he or she accepts the fact that OEM's won't give them fair support? No way!

Jacob

04-09-2004, 07:03 PM

Guess why the tech specs mention the amount of RAM and ROM. So people know there's a space they can't use? Of course not. It is because at the time of the release of the 2K2 OS older units didn't have enough ROM to upgrade. It was all over the PPC-sites. Even this one. That's when OEM's started mentioning the amount of ROM on their products.

Hmm..but the specs for the 4150 (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/215348-64929-215381-314903-f43-349042.html) doesn't mention ROM anywhere.

In the tech specs (http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11751_na/11751_na.HTML) it is listed, However, it does not mention at all that it's flashable or upgradable.

Jaap van Ees

04-09-2004, 08:13 PM

Hmm..but the specs for the 4150 (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/215348-64929-215381-314903-f43-349042.html) doesn't mention ROM anywhere.

In the tech specs (http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11751_na/11751_na.HTML) it is listed, However, it does not mention at all that it's flashable or upgradable.

Well, now. See below what I copied from the hp.com-site just now. And what do you think the word "Flash" in 32 MB Flash ROM means?

From the HP-site:
"HP iPAQ h4155 Pocket PC
Price: $449.99*
As low as $20/mo†

• Intel® XScale™ processor 400MHz
• Microsoft® Windows® Mobile 2003 Premium for Pocket PC
• 64MB SDRAM, 32MB Flash ROM
• Bluetooth® wireless technology, integrated wireless LAN, IrDA
• 3.5" transflective screen
• SD slot
• 1000 mAh battery"

Jacob

04-09-2004, 08:19 PM

Link?

I couldn't find any such text on the HP site - at least at the links that I posted.

Jaap van Ees

04-09-2004, 08:25 PM

Link?

I couldn't find any such text on the HP site - at least at the links that I posted.

Go here http://www.shopping.hp.com/cgi-bin/hpdirect/shopping/scripts/generic_store/generic_subcategory_view.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1011802618.1081538599@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccegadcleidggjjcfngcfkmdflldfgf.0&landing=null&category=handhelds&subcat1=handhelds&catLevel=2&set_cookies=true and scroll down.

sracer

04-09-2004, 08:34 PM

Guess why the tech specs mention the amount of RAM and ROM. So people know there's a space they can't use? Of course not.

No, they mention the ROM as just another number to use to convince consumers that their device is better. "32MB ROM is more than 16MB ROM so therefore it is better".... THAT is the reason why they list it.

It is because at the time of the release of the 2K2 OS older units didn't have enough ROM to upgrade. It was all over the PPC-sites. Even this one. That's when OEM's started mentioning the amount of ROM on their products.

Nope... RAM/ROM numbers have always been mentioned...back in the WinCE 1.0 days.

Just because the issue of ROM size was used to explain why an upgrade for a device wasn't forthcoming doesn't imply that if there WAS enough room, that an upgrade WOULD be made available. That is a leap in logic that you are making. ROM size was a convenient excuse for them to use, and they never said that it was the only roadblock to making an upgrade available.

Again, show me where a company states that their device is upgradeable, and I'll entertain the idea that companies owe an upgrade to their customers.

As it stands, you are pointing to a technical specification (size of ROM) as "proof" that companies are promising upgrades. But that is an inference that you are drawing... one that is not a reasonable one to make.

sracer

04-09-2004, 08:37 PM

It is one thing to want an upgrade...even demand an upgrade. It is another thing entirely to think that companies owe us an upgrade (free or for charge).

Jacob

04-09-2004, 08:37 PM

Interesting that they post it there and not in the specs outside their shopping site.

That is an implication of upgradablility. The question is whether possibility of upgrading a device constitues a promise that they will. I don't think it does, but that's me. I think it's just precedent that has caused the expectation and that's what they'd like to change.

I do think that their best option is to post an upgrade policy that's clear. Either state one way or another whether OS upgrades will be provided and a time period in which they will be.

RobertCF

04-09-2004, 09:00 PM

Okay, I bought my iPaq 3630 right after they came out, after carefully comparing Palm-based units and what very few PocketPC units there were. First, I decided that a Windows-based unit was MUCH better than Palm. Next, the iPaq was flash-upgradeable and patchable, and that was how it was marketed at the time. That convinced me I could get more VALUE out the device compared to all other devices. And that proved to be be very much the case. I loaded all patches faithfully, and I upgraded it all the way to PPC2k2. Okay, that's three years of life I got out of the unit before, as was explained by Compaq/HP, the flash ROM simply couldn't hold the WM2k3 OS, so they wouldn't develope an update. Okay, if it won't fit, it won't fit, and I accept that. However, MS in the meantime lowered the boom on OEMs and dictated minimum requirements for their OS. Just like the PC realm. Now, if the CURRENT OS only needed X amount of ROM, what do you honestly think the reason for building some devices with MUCH larger ROMS would be AND ADVERTISING that fact? From a marketing standpoint it seems quite obvious to me. If I have a multitude of PocketPCs to choose from, all of which having pretty much the same specs (MS did set a minimum standard, after all) what features would influence me to purchase one over the other. Well, two things did it for me on the Axim X5 Advanced. The largest ROM available at the time and having dual expansion card slots. There is no way you can tell me that "allowing for patches" was reason enough to put 48MB ROM chips in these devices, when the only put 32MB in the X5 Basic. As far as I'm concerned, I purchased the ability to UPGRADE my OS much further into the lifespan of the device than other OEM's devices. Now, as with my PC, I never expected free upgrades. I built my home computers (all four of them) with hardware specs that allowed for upgrading application and OS installations. And I've done so, three times. I paid for the software and upgraded my computers. I expect as much from my PDA, since that is the way the PDAs are being marketed. Even worse, look at all those folks who JUST BOUGHT their PDAs and they're being told they can't upgrade? That's utter Barbara Streisand. It's fraudulent practice by a company, as far as I'm concerned. I would have spent quite a bit less buying the X5 Basic had I ANY idea Dell wouldn't have developed OS upgrades as long as the ROM could support it. But now my wife's X5 that's a year old and mine, which is only a few months old, are stagnant devices for which we OVERSPENT.
If this is going to standard operating procedure, then here's what Microsoft needs to do. They need to put even MORE specs on the OEMs. They need to be told that their devices must be capable of OFF THE SHELF OS UPGRADES. That way, all they have to do is provide drivers for unique hardware. Just like in PCs.

Mitch D

04-10-2004, 04:38 AM

It is one thing to want an upgrade...even demand an upgrade. It is another thing entirely to think that companies owe us an upgrade (free or for charge).

I agree with you on this to a point sracer, the manufacture owes us nothing but service for the device we buy. But in this day and age of "Customer Service" to come out and say they will not supply an upgrade for current product without offering a reason is akin to cutting ones own throat to watch the blood spurt...

Not advisable and definitely painful to watch.

It is human nature to feel that we are owed something, whether it be an upgrade or simply an explanation as to why they will not be supplying such. All that is required by the manufactures is a simple explanation as to why they chose not to take that step, nothing more, and nothing less.

Chris Spera

04-10-2004, 05:54 AM

I don't think Chris is saying that a PPC IS an appliance, but manufacturers WANT you to see it as one.

This is exactly what I am saying. Thanks for seeing the poing...

Chris

Chris Spera

04-10-2004, 05:59 AM

Wrong, wrong, wrong.... I'm sorry Chris, I just don't agree with you.

Then you are unfortunately deluding yourself... or more likely, missing the point that I am making.

This IS why OEM's are reacting this way. It IS the reason so many people are not getting the service they want or expect.

You're not the only one in the business marcelo. To boot, I've been an executive manager resposible for HUGE budgets, and an organization's bottom line P&L. In my experience, there is no other logical explanation for these kinds of decisions.

I respect your opinion...but you're wrong...not me.

Chrashing

04-11-2004, 06:24 AM

Please everyone, even if your getting the update to SE, sign the petitions. More and more of these manufactures are taking advantage of the customers and not offering updates. Your PDA may be next. Don't let the HP, Dell, and the others force you to purchase new hardware because software features which your current PDA is capable of supporting simply are not offered.

You've paid for the flash ROM in the device that allows these updates, the manufactures are not supporting their customers. It only saves them money, at your expense.

At least make a note of manufactures like HP and Dell who are not committing to support the capabilities of the devices so your next PDA is not one left off the list of upgrades.

Don't listen to the those who are eager to throw their money away, who make excuses for the manufacturer's lack of support. HP and other manufactures are already are not offering patches to customer that MS has provided. Even simple updates to improve the reliability and function of our devices. MS EUU4 SP4 for instance was never released to H3765 is my experience. You can get it from Toshiba's site, and use it directly to update your HP device. HP didn't care to support their customers.

Already companies like HP are mis-informing customers about lack of hardware capability for upgrades. In my experience, HP's claim of the lack of memory of an upgrade for the h1945. There's 13Meg of the 64Meg FLASH ROM available for OS expansion, plenty.

It's all about money, you've paid enough for that sweet gem of a PDA, tell the manufactures you want your money's worth.

Chrashing

04-11-2004, 04:49 PM

"It cost too much for the manufacture to provide upgrades!"

Wrong, Fact is the upgrades are being offered!

It cost the customers too much not to get the upgrades.

These companies would put a vacuum hose into your pocket to get to your money, the fact that some people get a thrill out of this only feeds the corporate frenzy.

HP IS NOT SUPPORTING THEIR PRODUCTS. No SE update to a current, full featued and expensive product like the h1940 PPC PDA reflects a high disregard for customers. HP also blew off their H3760 customers as well.

Chrashing

04-11-2004, 10:58 PM

Well, HP isn't offering the h1940 a ROM OS upgrade, and they no longer offer the latest ROM update (it's been pulled off).

Is this the kind of "wonderful" HP service Christopher Spera, at PocketNow is talking about?

Is this the kind of "shining example" of HP service Jonathon Watkins, at PocketPC thoughts is talking about?

Edited by Chrashing, Above, I have mistakenly attributed the "shining example" quote by Christopher Spera, to Jonathon Watkins, I'll leave the original text, so the subsequent post make sense. My apologies to both Jonathan and Christopher for this mistake.

Jonathon Watkins

04-13-2004, 02:45 PM

s this the kind of "wonderful" HP service Christopher Spera, at PocketNow is talking about?

Is this the kind of "shining example" of HP service Jonathon Watkins, at PocketPC thoughts is talking about?

Chrashing, both of those quotes are from Christopher Spera, at PocketNow. Please do not confuse me with him. :)

I have consistently been arguing that the OEMs (including HP) have a duty to support their current devices for free, and offer paid upgrades for more recent devices.

It's up to folks to let their device manufacturers know how they feel. If certain OEMs get a reputation for not supporting their devices, then folks will stop buying them. Toshiba certainly got the message recently!

OEMs don't have to offer upgrades - but it is in their interests to do so. It's part of the whole package. The devices are upgradeable - and are marketed as such. The more recent advertising has not emphasised this like it used to be, but the inference is implicit and unavoidable.

sracer

04-13-2004, 03:24 PM

"It cost too much for the manufacture to provide upgrades!"

Wrong, Fact is the upgrades are being offered!

That comment makes no sense. The availability of upgrades has nothing to do with the cost of doing it. There are quite a few reasons why a company would make an upgrade available (even if they lose money on the effort)... One comes to mind, if a large corporation purchases 1000 (or even more) iPAQ 2215s, and they demand that an upgrade be available, you can believe that they will make the upgrade available, or lose out on large corporate sales.

It cost the customers too much not to get the upgrades.

These companies would put a vacuum hose into your pocket to get to your money, the fact that some people get a thrill out of this only feeds the corporate frenzy.

Can we keep the hysterics down to a reasonable level? :roll: You only believe that because of a sense of entitlement that is so prevalent today. Virtually everyone expects newer, bigger, and better. Very few have the self-discipline to be content that they don't have the latest-and-greatest. It's one big ego trip. "Hey look! I have the latest widget! (aren't I cool and hip?)" Our devices were functional out-of-the-box (except for those poor unfortunate souls who purchased Dell Axims last August with WM2003)... and it will continue to function should WM2003SE come out with no upgrade for those existing devices.

HP IS NOT SUPPORTING THEIR PRODUCTS. No SE update to a current, full featued and expensive product like the h1940 PPC PDA reflects a high disregard for customers. HP also blew off their H3760 customers as well.

Okay, if your comments aren't going to be based on reality, then I don't see the point of continuing further. WM2003SE has not been released. Wailing and whining about a product that isn't even available yet just seems silly.

Oh well.

sracer

04-13-2004, 03:41 PM

It's up to folks to let their device manufacturers know how they feel. If certain OEMs get a reputation for not supporting their devices, then folks will stop buying them. Toshiba certainly got the message recently!

I agree with letting the manufactuers know. However as far as Toshiba "getting it". I doubt that. Consumers have no will-power. The ruckus over a lack of upgrades for their product line didn't stop consumers from jumping in and buying e800/e805 devices. The only message that Toshiba is getting is, "consumers have short memories and no will-power... just produce a product that is light on substance but big on style, and it will sell."

OEMs don't have to offer upgrades - but it is in their interests to do so. It's part of the whole package. The devices are upgradeable - and are marketed as such. The more recent advertising has not emphasised this like it used to be, but the inference is implicit and unavoidable.

Pocket PCs are not currently being marketed as upgradeable. They just aren't... look at the marketing material. As for "inference", if you mean by the simple fact that they mention the amount of "ROM" a device has... well, that is a real stretch.

"Joe Six-Pack" doesn't know ROM from RAM. So that's just another marketing number... all he knows is, "more is better". "Jimmy Propellerhead" knows what ROM is, and that it is just another capability.

All this talk of the subtle, implicit inferences by the mere mention of "Flashable ROM" ignores the glaring issue of capabilities that ARE prominently advertised that have gone unsupported. BLUETOOTH!

They advertise the ability to connect your BT-enabled PPC to cell phones, modems, LAN, keyboards, headphones, on and on. Most of those still don't exist...

So if we're going to say anything about what a company is "promising", let's go after the obvious stuff rather that what we would like it to be.

Jonathon Watkins

04-13-2004, 03:45 PM

Jacob

04-13-2004, 04:03 PM

MS charges a heck of a lot less for the PPC OS than for W2K or XP. I don't believe the OEMs make a loss if they change £30 for a downloadable upgrade. It's part of the cost of us buying the unit in the first place - future support.

Does 30 pds (sorry, don't have the key for the british pound on my keyboard) cover the development, testing and support costs including salary etc? It depends on how many upgrades they sell. Many won't even buy the upgrade because they aren't just clamoring for one.

It's an inexact science to know how much money they win/lose in customer loyalty. How many people will not buy an iPAQ again if they don't support it? How many WILL buy an iPAQ strictly because they've provided an upgrade in the past? Sure, they'll lose/gain some in both cases, but I find it hard to believe that they are not aware of these factors.

I agree that it's valid for customers to voice that they want an upgrade and to show the company that there is a demand for it. What I don't agree with is that there is any reason for a sense of entitlement to one when none has been promised.

sracer

04-13-2004, 08:54 PM

HP IS NOT SUPPORTING THEIR PRODUCTS. No SE update to a current, full featured and expensive product like the h1940 PPC PDA reflects a high disregard for customers. HP also blew off their H3760 customers as well.

Okay, if your comments aren't going to be based on reality, then I don't see the point of continuing further. WM2003SE has not been released. Wailing and whining about a product that isn't even available yet just seems silly.

Sracer, Chrashing is making a valid point here. WM2003SE has been announced and we know fairly well now which devices are going to be upgradeable and which are not. Making the point to the manufactures that you are not happy with being denied the chance to pay to upgrade, is not wailing or whining - it is a valid point to make. The customer is king, but if we stay silent then how will the manufactures know what we expect? It is not silly to feel let down that we can't upgrade our Pocket *PCs* to have the new features that WM2003SE offers.

Sorry, but his point is invalid. WM2003SE has been announced but is not yet released. Manufacturers have stated that there are no plans at this time to provide an upgrade. That doesn't mean that there will NEVER be an upgrade (though that might be true)... it simply means that there are no official plans at the time that the statement was made.

You can't make the claim that "manufacturers aren't supporting their devices with an upgrade option" until (A) The upgrade option is AVAILABLE and (B) the manufacturer has made an emphatic statement that none will be offered. It really is that simple.

Dell still sells X5s - they are not supporting their current models. I previously paid to upgrade to WM2003. I would pay to upgrade to WM2003SE to tide me over until a decent new VGA device comes along, but it is not being offered.
Again, how can Dell offer something that isn't available? Make your wishes known to Dell, absolutely, but let's keep things honest by admitting it is a bit premature to be claiming that devices are being abandoned.

MS charges a heck of a lot less for the PPC OS than for W2K or XP. I don't believe the OEMs make a loss if they change £30 for a downloadable upgrade. It's part of the cost of us buying the unit in the first place - future support.

You are free to believe what you wish, but that doesn't make it true. The cost to OEMs for producing an upgrade are more than simply the price that they pay MS for the upgrade.

In the end it's the OEMs choice. If they don't support the devices, we will go to another manufacture who will. Toshiba messed up in this way previously, but seems to have learned from that. Will HP and Dell learn about supporting current & very recent devices, or will we have to go elsewhere for our next PPCs (and pass this advice on to all the folks we advise about PDA purchase??

What exactly gives you reason to believe that Toshiba "learned their lesson"? I haven't see any evidence. As for Dell, there are plenty of people who only care about the price they pay...which is the overriding reason for the Axim's popularity. Because no one in their right mind would purchase an Axim after Aug 2003's fiasco where Dell shipped defective Axims with totally unusable WM2003 preloaded. But people HAVE bought them after that, haven't they? Seems to me that people either forgot, or don't care.

I was one of those unfortunate ones. When a fix wasn't forthcoming within the 30 day return window, I returned it for a refund. A month later a fix was made available but nagging problems persist... to this very day.

Jonathon Watkins

04-14-2004, 12:56 AM

Sorry, but his point is invalid. WM2003SE has been announced but is not yet released. Manufacturers have stated that there are no plans at this time to provide an upgrade. That doesn't mean that there will NEVER be an upgrade (though that might be true)... it simply means that there are no official plans at the time that the statement was made. .

Splitting hairs really. They have announced their plans. Their plans will not change unless we our thoughts know. It is a valid point.

You can't make the claim that "manufacturers aren't supporting their devices with an upgrade option" until (A) The upgrade option is AVAILABLE and (B) the manufacturer has made an emphatic statement that none will be offered. It really is that simple.

Disagree. The manufacturers have spoken and we know what they expect to produce. Are you suggesting that sometime later out of the goodness of their hearts they will suddenly decide to offer upgrades to recent models? So why not announce them all in one batch? If some are offered now and others aren't, there is very little chance they will be offered in the future. Look at the precedents.

MS charges a heck of a lot less for the PPC OS than for W2K or XP. I don't believe the OEMs make a loss if they change £30 for a downloadable upgrade. It's part of the cost of us buying the unit in the first place - future support.

You are free to believe what you wish, but that doesn't make it true. The cost to OEMs for producing an upgrade are more than simply the price that they pay MS for the upgrade.

In the nicest possible way, Duh! :wink: I am fully aware of integration, testing and support costs, having been employed in all of these areas. £30 or $45 seems a fair price on all side for an upgrade once all costs have been factored in.

In the end it's the OEMs choice. If they don't support the devices, we will go to another manufacture who will. Toshiba messed up in this way previously, but seems to have learned from that. Will HP and Dell learn about supporting current & very recent devices, or will we have to go elsewhere for our next PPCs (and pass this advice on to all the folks we advise about PDA purchase??

What exactly gives you reason to believe that Toshiba "learned their lesson"? I haven't see any evidence. As for Dell, there are plenty of people who only care about the price they pay...which is the overriding reason for the Axim's popularity. Because no one in their right mind would purchase an Axim after Aug 2003's fiasco where Dell shipped defective Axims with totally unusable WM2003 preloaded. But people HAVE bought them after that, haven't they? Seems to me that people either forgot, or don't care.

Fair point about Toshiba, but that's the way it looks to us outsiders. Have a look here for more details (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=234790). With Dell, they screwed up, but they recovered the situation at the time. Be fair – the WM2003 load wasn't totally unusable. It was buggy – true – but not to the extent you suggest.

I was one of those unfortunate ones. When a fix wasn't forthcoming within the 30 day return window, I returned it for a refund. A month later a fix was made available but nagging problems persist... to this very day.

Nagging problems persisted on a device you returned, or was this on someone else's device? My Axim X5 with PPC2003 is doing just fine, and would be all the finer if Dell would let me indirectly pay MS for the PPC2003SE upgrade. :|