Miscellaneous Tidbits

[Ed Hansberry]

Well, I haven't stirred things up here in at least 72 hours and I have a few items in my inbox that you, Pocket PC Thoughts members, have sent me. Thanks! :grinning devil: <br /><br />First are a few items on PalmSource's new OS, Cobalt, also known as OS6. This <a href="http://www.brighthand.com/article/First_Impressions_of_Cobalt">Brighthand article</a> has some pretty good info on the new OS from Ed Hardy who has been playing with Cobalt for a few days. It seems Palm will forgo native landscape support in OS6, again leaving it up to the OEMs to add their own custom APIs. "In a revelation I found very disappointing, Cobalt doesn't have support for switching between landscape and portrait mode built into it. I had been told in the past that this would be a part of the standard API, therefore bringing this important feature to all Cobalt Powered devices. Licensees will still be able to add this themselves, as palmOne did to the Tungsten T3, but it's unfortunate that PalmSource didn't make it a part of the operating system, especially as Microsoft has said this will be a standard feature of Windows Mobile 2004."<br /><br />OS6 will also pretty much fix the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5971">the shortcomings in the address book</a> application by extending the number of fields and making it more compatible with Microsoft Outlook. Hrm... another area <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24051">Palm is following Microsoft</a>. ;) Multitasking is there too. "I saw a demonstration of a test device playing a movie, making a phone call, and looking an address up, all at the same time." All of that sounds really confusing to me. Multitasking isn't in my Zen handbook. :idontthinkso: <br /><br />No matter. Doesn't really matter what Palm does or doesn't do. The point is, you should just buy a Palm according to <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&amp;node=&amp;contentId=A20019-2003Nov28">Washington Post</a>.<br /><div class="quote"> <span class="quote">Quote:</span> "Even if, as a consumer, you don't care about Palm, you should," said Saffo, the futurist. "Without [PalmOne], we're all marching lockstep with AT&amp;T and Microsoft. As consumers, I think we should all buy a Palm even if we don't use it -- just to keep the diversity out there." </div><br />:roll: I can see that being in a Palm advertising campaign in the future. Of course, don't count on your old Palm apps running on OS6. Ed Hardy writes "PalmSource is really hammering developers to get their current apps ready for Palm OS Cobalt. The developers I spoke with said some tweaking was necessary for most apps that run under the current version of the operating system, but the changes are fairly minor...Therefore, you can expect a lot of apps will need a small update as soon as devices start shipping." Minor change or not, if the change has to be made, the developer has to crack open the code and fix it, even if it takes less than 10 minutes from start to compile complete. If your app is older or no longer supported you might be out of luck. You can say what you want about Pocket PCs, but with the exception of drivers and communication related apps that got thrown for a loop with the Connection Manager introduced in 2002, I still have Pocket PC 2000 apps that run just fine under 2003.<br /><br />Have a good weekend all. :onfire:

[T-Will]

Without [PalmOne], we're all marching lockstep with AT&T and Microsoft. As consumers, I think we should all buy a Palm even if we don't use it -- just to keep the diversity out there.

LOL! They're using the diversity card with PDAs now??? Why would you buy something you don't use and only for the reason to keep diversity in the market??? :? Way to go Washington Post!!! :idontthinkso: This is idiotic... :roll:

[johncruise]

"Even if, as a consumer, you don't care about Palm, you should," said Saffo, the futurist. "Without [PalmOne], we're all marching lockstep with AT&T and Microsoft. As consumers, I think we should all buy a Palm even if we don't use it -- just to keep the diversity out there."

shouldn't it be the other way around? If MS didn't entered the market, pda will be dominated by palm? just imagine the feature-set that ms paved way for palm to follow (colored screen, bigger memory, multi-tasking, etc .... and they said we don't need it... yeah right!).

[T-Will]

shouldn't it be the other way around? If MS didn't entered the market, pda will be dominated by palm? just imagine the feature-set that ms paved way for palm to follow (colored screen, bigger memory, multi-tasking, etc .... and they said we don't need it... yeah right!).

It's all about being anti-Microsoft, anti-business, anti-free-market, anti-whatever... :|

[Partita]

on PalmSource's new OS, Cobalt, also known as OS6

...it's suppose to read "The OS formerly known as OS6". (whatever happen to Prince anyway?)

[Janak Parekh]

(whatever happen to Prince anyway?)
Prince is Prince again.

Back ontopic: without a doubt, Palm's presence is good for competition, and I'll keep on watching them to see if they make "superior" devices. But I'm a pragmatist -- I'm not going to use a Palm if it's worse for my needs just because, and I suspect most consumers will do the same.

--janak

[c38b2]

they said we don't need it...
I'm not directing this comment specifically at you johncruise, but I am wondering if there are any links where Palm actually says that things like color screens or multitasking are not needed. I have seen people say what "they" said but I doubt that "they" directly said it.

[johncruise]

, but I am wondering if there are any links where Palm actually says that things like color screens or multitasking are not needed. I have seen people say what "they" said but I doubt that "they" directly said it.

Hmmm... that's a tough one. I don't usually gather those links and save it. Maybe somebody from the PPCT team has something to say about this. :D

Looking at google, I couldn't find anything that quotes a Palm spokeperson about it. I just found this other links that were bashing Pocket PC for having colored screens... but then again, it's not from a Palm rep.

But one can't help but wonder... if Palm did say something about that in their site... do you think they haven't thought about pulling it off from their archives? :wink:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=palm+says+we+%22don%27t+need%22+color+screen
http://www.palmstation.com/view_article.py?article=2124

[Ed Hansberry]

Yeah, they said it. Old newslinks that no longer work. Starting in 2001-2001 they quit and started advocating these features.

[Thinkingmandavid]

Quote:
"Even if, as a consumer, you don't care about Palm, you should," said Saffo, the futurist. "Without [PalmOne], we're all marching lockstep with AT&T and Microsoft. As consumers, I think we should all buy a Palm even if we don't use it -- just to keep the diversity out there."

The guy who said this is just crazy. That is the dumbest reason to buy a palm or any pda for that matter.

Johncruise wrote
shouldn't it be the other way around? If MS didn't entered the market, pda will be dominated by palm? just imagine the feature-set that ms paved way for palm to follow (colored screen, bigger memory, multi-tasking, etc .... and they said we don't need it... yeah right!).
I agree with you about this big time. It is strange how they guy at the Washington post is always so pro palm crap. Is this the same person who all along has been pushing palm :?:

[c38b2]

Yeah, they said it. Old newslinks that no longer work. Starting in 2001-2001 they quit and started advocating these features.
I would love to believe you, but you have in the past stretched what people say to what you want to hear. In regards to the links you gave, johncruise, the first one doens't bring up any meaningful comments from Palm. The second link details Palm's strategy to compete with the entrance of PPCs into the market three years ago. Some of the more interesting comments:
- Are you forced to pay for features you don't want? Everyone wants different things from a handheld. Adding hardware features increases the weight and cost of the system. Bundling extra software costs you money, and uses extra memory which adds even more cost and reduces battery life. You'll carry your handheld with you all day -- make sure you're only carrying the programs and features you'll really want. Palm puts the basics in its systems, and makes it easy for you to add whatever you want.

- How simple is it, really? Beware of companies that try to cram an entire PC into your pocket. Adding PC-style menus, windows, and programs can make a handheld too complex, and forces you to pay for extra memory and high-powered processors that can destroy battery life. Remember, the most important features of a handheld are getting to the information you need instantly and reliably, and getting a battery life long enough that you can travel without the fear of losing your information.

- How well do the features work in real life? Sometimes features work better in a demo than they do in real life. A prime example is browsing the Web. When connected to a phone line, browsing can look very fast. But when using a wireless connection, which is what most handheld users want to do, the Web slows to a crawl. You can get browsers for the Palm platform, but we also offer Web Clipping, a Web technology designed specifically for handhelds, which allows access to Web information in under ten seconds, even over a very slow connection.
These may be what were misconstrued into Palm's aversion to incorporating "unneeded" technology into their products, but remember that when these comments were made they were all true. Palm has recognized that in the past three years times have changed and thus they have changed their focus. This, however, does not mean that they are copying Microsoft.

[felixdd]

...These may be what were misconstrued into Palm's aversion to incorporating "unneeded" technology into their products, but remember that when these comments were made they were all true. Palm has recognized that in the past three years times have changed and thus they have changed their focus. This, however, does not mean that they are copying Microsoft.

No, of course they aren't copying MS purposely or intently, just that their new goals and philosophy happened to match what Microsoft has already decided on back in the CE days. And during those days, Palm was bashing CE by saying that it was overly complicated, filled with bells and whistles they don't need.

So why is the market demand changing? If MS had came out with a device that was on-level with Palm at every aspect, then perhaps even today our devices would be weak in multimedia, graphics, etc. But MS chose to include these "bells and whistles" and the customers gradually accepted them as more than just luxuries, but necessities, in a PDA. So this market "change" to which Palm must adapt is brought on (partially at least) by MS. So you see, there is some justification in saying that Palm is now chasing MS....

[johncruise]

my bad :oops: I copied the wrong one.

Here is the supposed to be search result from palminfocenter:

http://www.google.com/custom?q=%22don%27t+need+color%22&cof=LW%3A318%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.palminfocenter.com%2Fimages%2Flogo_test_2a.gif%3BLH%3A70%3BAH%3Aleft%3BAWFID%3A2700730346a49c00%3B&domains=palminfocenter.com&sitesearch=palminfocenter.com

again... those are users who are being quoted not any palm rep.

[Partita]

too bad PDABUZZ archieve has been erased and there is no copy on the web. Otherwise... man... it would have been hillarious.

-----------
oh and have a laugh, even some of the 'innovation' they promised 2 years ago still hasn't shown up yet.

http://www.brighthand.com/articles/print.php?urlName=Palm_CCO_Interview_2001
There is, of course, a lot of other innovation beyond the OS coming in 2001 from Palm licensees and developers. I can't name the companies, but some of the developments that I think will come to market in 2001 include:

Higher resolution screens
Enhanced audio and video
Faster processors, and coprocessors (DSPs or other coprocessing chips)
Built-in MP3 playback from at least one Palm licensee (there are also MP3 add-ons coming soon for Palm and Handspring systems)
Clip-on or integrated wireless modems for most of the world's major wireless standards, including GSM, GPRS, CDMA, CDPD, Mobitex, 802.11, PDC, and more
Bluetooth clip-ons and SD cards
Visual Basic and Java support

---------
Enhanced audio and video (what on earth is THAT?)
'bluetooth clip-ons and SD cards'?
VB and Java supports?

[ctmagnus]

(whatever happen to Prince anyway?)
Prince is Prince again.

Speaking of Prince, what happened to Crystal Eitle? I miss her. :cry:

Sorry, :nonono:

[bigkingfun]

These may be what were misconstrued into Palm's aversion to incorporating "unneeded" technology into their products, but remember that when these comments were made they were all true. Palm has recognized that in the past three years times have changed and thus they have changed their focus. This, however, does not mean that they are copying Microsoft.

I have to agree with this point of view. Microsoft is just as guilty of saying something is not important then doing an about-face and incorporating it into their own products. There was a time when they thought the internet wasn't important enough to worry about.

I think almost any company has made these kind of changes at some point or another. In my opinion, Palm doesn't deserve the grief they get in some threads on this board for adding features their customers want that Microsoft has had for years. What I do think they deserve to get some grief for is not saying "Yeah, I guess Microsoft was right back then. We did what we thought was right, but now we've seen that these other features are important too."

Palm always seems to project the attitude that since they've added them, these features are NOW important. Mind you, most of the time I read these newbytes on this site, which might be just a little bit biased :D

[Partita]

oh don't worry about the past, they are still doing it right now.
Just wait until directX for PPC is done, they will say who needs those GAPI.

[koriel]

As consumers, I think we should all buy a Palm even if we don't use it -- just to keep the diversity out there

I think I can see a contradiction developing here :lol: [/quote]

[fireflyrsmr]

This diversity thing -

I can understand that if the other is better - I've never used a palm os so I'm not commenting on that but I did use a newton. I'd still be using a newton but Jobs wasn't worried about diversity. Yeah I'm still bitter. The point is - the consumer has to look after their own interests. Supporting something that you don't need seems altruistic for the wrong cause.

[acollet]

I'm one of those who loves the PPC and my h4350. However, I still use a Palm about 30% of the time. I just ordered the sony TH55 w/ wi-fi and camera. Anyone else out there still use both platforms ? I have no idea why I really do as ther is nothing my Palm can do that my PPC cann't. Guess I just like playing w/ tech.

[drac]

Palm doesn't deserve the grief they get in some threads on this board for adding features their customers want that Microsoft has had for years. What I do think they deserve to get some grief for is not saying "Yeah, I guess Microsoft was right back then. We did what we thought was right, but now we've seen that these other features are important too."

Palm always seems to project the attitude that since they've added them, these features are NOW important.
You have to remember that there is no perfect handheld. Palm made their decisions at the time based on what was possible at the time, and their balance of priorites AT THE TIME.

Past and continuing general consumer preference for small, low-cost devices seems to suggest that Palm's general emphasis on small size and low cost was actually correct.

Palm's position, as far as I know, has always been that they will only introduce features when the advantages of doing so *outweigh the disadvantages* of doing so for most of their consumers. Although older PPC devices were certainly wonderful for the technoliterati, their price, size, etc. as well as their (lack of) popularity among the mainstram seem to confirm rather than refute Palm's position at that time.

The constant practise of some on this site, of aggressively taking Palm's position out of context- of wilfully ignoring that Palm did NOT suggest that no-one would ever want colour, for example, but merely that colour was not, at that time, for most consumers, worth the drawbacks- constitutes deep intellectual dishonesty which continues to keep me from frequenting this site more.

I am fascinated by the advances that the PPC platform has made in recent years. I am not a Palm fanatic. I am willing to criticise the Yanowski age when marketing took firm precedent over innovation.

Yet, our criticisms must be driven by logic and evidence rather than spittle-flecked fanaticism.


I've bought a PPC, now, and am in a better position to speak from experience as well as longstanding reading about the advantages and disadvantages of each platform. I look forward to continuing to advance my own knowledge. Yet, such advancement is more difficult when the attitude of the editor of this webpage drips with bitter bias and resentment. Not being a professional journalist is no excuse for such behavior.



Still, this site remains stellar despite the above flaws, and Ed must be thanked as well as admired for his tireless work in its maintenance. My journey with PDA's continues, and if it is peppered occasionally with irritation at fanatics from either side? Well- I'll live, and enjoy the journey nonetheless.

[shawnc]

Yeah, they said it. Old newslinks that no longer work. Starting in 2001-2001 they quit and started advocating these features.
I would love to believe you, but you have in the past stretched what people say to what you want to hear.

:snipersmile: :takethat: Here it comes!

[guinness]

Actually, I kind of agree with that statement of Palm and diversity. When was the last time MS actually pushed the boundries of the PPC platform? PPC 2000? Same QVGA screens, same basic ARM/X-Scale processors, the OS looks the same, Pocket Word still sucks, ActiveSync sometimes/sometimes doesn't work, etc. Most of the PPC devices all look the same too. And MS can't even get a simple alarm to work right. Pathetic. Unless something drastic happens in the next year or so with PPC's, my next PDA will be a Palm (proably even a Sony, lke theTH55 and I hate Sony, but that is a sweet looking PDA).

[dh]

(whatever happen to Prince anyway?)
Prince is Prince again.

Speaking of Prince, what happened to Crystal Eitle? I miss her. :cry:

Sorry, :nonono:
I was wondering about Crystal as well, she seemed to just stop posting here.
She keeps her blog site up to date http://gospacewaitress.typepad.com/gate_a/ so I guess she's ok.

[Jonathon Watkins]

(whatever happen to Prince anyway?)
Prince is Prince again.

Speaking of Prince, what happened to Crystal Eitle? I miss her. :cry:

I think that after her PPC stopped working she stopped coming here so much. This is one of her last posts: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=166878&highlight=#166878

Ever since I spilled coffee on my iPaq 1910 a couple months ago, the D-pad hasn't been working properly. Since I mostly use my Pocket PC for reading e-books, this is a royal pain in the a**.

I bought my Pocket PC at Best Buy in February, but unfortunately I didn't purchase any kind of service plan.

Now back the scheduled program. :wink:

When was the last time MS actually pushed the boundries of the PPC platform? PPC 2000? Same QVGA screens, same basic ARM/X-Scale processors, the OS looks the same, Pocket Word still sucks, ActiveSync sometimes/sometimes doesn't work, etc. Most of the PPC devices all look the same too.

Fair enough, PPC land has been somewhat quiet recently. However, lets just see what PPC2004 brings shall we? Calm before the storm and all that. :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

You have to remember that there is no perfect handheld. Palm made their decisions at the time based on what was possible at the time, and their balance of priorites AT THE TIME.
I wish I could find it now, but I read a interview with Jeff Hawkins years ago that talked about Palm's decision to not adopt color because of its effect on battery life. Nevertheless, the current introduction of color into Palm's latest handhelds have done just that - reduced battery life substantially. Does this mean they wait until consumers are "looking for it", or something else?

I was wondering about Crystal as well, she seemed to just stop posting here.
There's no conspiracy. Crystal retired from the news staff as she was going through job changes and other time-consuming events and really didn't have the time to be part of the team. She still floats around and comments though from time to time. :)

--janak

[drac]

I read a interview with Jeff Hawkins years ago that talked about Palm's decision to not adopt color because of its effect on battery life. Nevertheless, the current introduction of color into Palm's latest handhelds have done just that - reduced battery life substantially. Does this mean they wait until consumers are "looking for it", or something else?
Seen through the lens of general consumer demand, the advantages of colour screens for most outweigh the disadvantages in cost, bulk, and battery drain.

These disadvantages are not static, but shrink daily.

Consumer demand for "advanced" features also is not static, but grows daily.

It is therefore meaningless to look at the relationship of current consumer demand to intrinsic drawbacks, and to attempt to deduce from that relationship the nature of the relationship of different demands to different drawbacks at a time when the state of the art was different.



Palm's decision to include colour was certainly provoked by rising and critical consumer demand. But it was also provoked by Palm's perception that they could now include colour in a package that they could sell to their target audience. The two provocations are not mutually exclusive.


Consumers are a fickle sort. They demand features hungrily, yet will still reject the products that contain those features if they are not acceptable in some other way- as the early colour PPC's were rejected by mainstream users for their perceivedly prohibitive size and cost. Certainly we know now small size is even more important than Palm had dreamed, as is colour, and that battery life is less important. But do you think that Palm would have done as well had they earlier abandoned their cost and size advantage over PPC in the name of meeting consumer demand for colour?

I do not.

[Janak Parekh]

But do you think that Palm would have done as well had they earlier abandoned their cost and size advantage over PPC in the name of meeting consumer demand for colour?
Well... maybe, but here's a twist on your question. ;) Do you think the demand for color Palm devices would have existed without first-gen Pocket PCs, like the iPAQ, that showed it was possible? I suggest that the ridiculous demand for the reflective 3650 in mid-2000 finally woke up the rest of the handheld world to the possibility (and success!) of marketing color PDAs in the first place.

--janak

[drac]

Oh, definitely!

I do think that it would have taken longer, of course...

But what I think really put the heat on Palm to completely abandon their stagnation was not colour screens, but colour screens in a tiny package- the 19xx series. That series, and its descendant, continue to be Palm's major embarassment.

[Ed Hansberry]

I wish I could find it now, but I read a interview with Jeff Hawkins years ago that talked about Palm's decision to not adopt color because of its effect on battery life. Nevertheless, the current introduction of color into Palm's latest handhelds have done just that - reduced battery life substantially. Does this mean they wait until consumers are "looking for it", or something else?
Excellent point. Either they abandoned their concept of Zen and keeping the design within their concept of the sweet spot of the user experience or Zen was just marketing mumbo jumbo. See http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/zenofpalm/Enlightenment.html

If this doesn't epitomize "You don't need it until we have it" I don't know what does. Your product needs enough features for the optimal user experience and no more. You may even have to omit some interesting features for the sake of a better overall user experience. The sweet spot at which you achieve an optimal balance of features and user experience appears at the apex of the curve in a graph of features vs. user experience. :roll:

The concept is sound. The sweet spot it waaaaaay of target though, at one time hobbled by the anemic OS4. They are still playing catch up, all the while patting you on the head. "Silly user, you don't need that." :pukeface:

[drac]

I would say that the "Zen of Palm", as originally conceived, no longer exists. It was abandoned when Palm first started differentiating functionally high-end from functionally low-end machines.

At the same time, your bitterness towards Palm is unfortunate, and I cannot fathom your use of the "barfie".

I note again that your characterisation of Palm's attitude seems as much a function of your own bitterness as of their words. I note also that, as usual, you have yet to substantiate your accusations, nor to address any criticisms made of you.

The sweet spot it waaaaaay of target though
But you can no more presume to say that than they can.
Your presumption in telling me that I need certain features is no less than theirs if they had told me that I don't. And remember, they never said that, as far as I know- and I've been following PalmOS happenings for quite some time.

Again, you mischaracterise and misquote what was said. As you noted, the concept is sound; as you noted, their conceptualisation of the sweet spot is way off target for some people- but, as you omitted to note, Palm's idea of the "sweet spots" is bang-on for many others.

Cheers!

[Ed Hansberry]

I note again that your characterisation of Palm's attitude seems as much a function of your own bitterness as of their words.Bitterness? Why would I be bitter? The sweet spot it waaaaaay of target though
But you can no more presume to say that than they can.
Your presumption in telling me that I need certain features is no less than theirs if they had told me that I don't.I have always said let the market decide. I've recommended PalmOS devices for some that want PIM inexpensively - though that was before smert phones got as smart as they are now. :-)

Palm's marketing machine was and still is "if we don't have it, you don't need it."

My justification for saying they are off base? Their decline in market share every year starting in 2000. The market wants what they don't offer. Palm's sweet spot is less so for a larger number of people each year.

[drac]

I've recommended PalmOS devices for some that want PIM inexpensively
Then show some of that evenhandedness in both your posts and your responses to the criticisms of others.

Palm's marketing machine was and still is "if we don't have it, you don't need it."
You may choose to characterise it as such, but your words remain questionable paraphrase at best, and sullenly malevolent misquote at worst.

Palm's sweet spot is less so for a larger number of people each year.
True.

I did note earlier that consumer demand for high-end features rises consistently as time passes, and that these features become more and more feasible.

Palm became slow and stagnant during their time of complete dominance, and are only now leaving those ways behind- perhaps too late.

That does not change the fact of your mischaracerisations, though, nor does it invalidate the original concept of the "Zen of Palm".

[Jonathon Watkins]

I've recommended PalmOS devices for some that want PIM inexpensively
Then show some of that evenhandedness in both your posts and your responses to the criticisms of others.

Well, bearing in mind, this is Pocket PC Thoughts, I think that Ed is very evenhanded. I have seen him responding graciously to many post that I would have been slamming. :?

Palm's marketing machine was and still is "if we don't have it, you don't need it."
You may choose to characterise it as such, but your words remain questionable paraphrase at best, and sullenly malevolent misquote at worst.

Point of view. Personally I think it's spot on - or was at the time. It's a lot less harsh than some of the comments about MS made around here. :rawr:

We can usually debate PPC/Palm issues in a pretty civilised manner. I like to think there is more :idea: than :onfire: around here.

[Partita]

even handed, bitter or whatever else...

The fundamental question remain: Can Palm remain a viable product? I for one think it doesn't offer anything new, attractive, or cheaper.

[drac]

The evenhandedness of many posters is a key reason I'm still here :D

Point of view
Nope.

If you say someone said something, and they didn't, you need to mark your statement as interpretation (which he doesn't), or back to hell down. (which he doesn't).

And I do note that Ed is quite able and willing to make appropriate criticisms of the PPC platform.

Really, I think that I react so badly to these statements of his because they are such a great departure from the general high standard of the site. I do think that they are unnecessary, though, detract from the appeal of the site, and are something that he could avoid doing.

Can Palm remain a viable product? I for one think it doesn't offer anything new, attractive, or cheaper.
{shrug}

then you obviously haven't looked at the PalmOS lineup particularly closely.

I don't claim that PalmOS solutions are the best for everyone- they are not- but to claim that, for example, the Zire 21 is not cheaper, or that the Sony UX-whatever or the Garmin- or even the Tungsten T3- don't offer any advantages at all over the competition- seems ludicrous.

[Ed Hansberry]

Really, I think that I react so badly to these statements of his because they are such a great departure from the general high standard of the site. I do think that they are unnecessary, though, detract from the appeal of the site, and are something that he could avoid doing.
You can filter out "The Competition" from the front page. That is why this forum and the filter feature was created. We recognize some, perhaps many, Pocket PC users don't care about competing products. :mrgreen:

Yet these threads do get lots of hits and replies. :lol:

[JonnoB]

2004 will be the big year for PDA operating systems. WM2003 was the first MS OS to step forward with almost all of the improvements under the UI covers. The 2004 OS from what is being said, will be the first to change the way we interface with the devices (native landscape, etc)

On the Palm side, OS6 will be a major change for them... catching up with multi-tasking, better memory management, no landscape though?

As the two camps are becoming more equally competitive to each other, I believe this will be the year the momentum swings heavily one way or the other. I believe Microsoft will do just enough to keep the momentum on its side... this will be even more evident with major additions in the PPCPE and SmartPhone area.

[drac]

We recognize some, perhaps many, Pocket PC users don't care about competing products.

Yet these threads do get lots of hits and replies
I'm not sure what that has to do with my points, Ed...

But I will agree (since you brought it up) that I have noticed that the Palm-oriented sections of PPC sites seem to be the most popular... yet the PPC-oriented sections of PalmOS sites are the least popular...

:D

[Ed Hansberry]

But I will agree (since you brought it up) that I have noticed that the Palm-oriented sections of PPC sites seem to be the most popular... yet the PPC-oriented sections of PalmOS sites are the least popular...
Playstations don't get much use at the nursing homes either. ;)

I think most of the fun people are here anyway. :mrgreen:

[Racer-X]

Really, I think that I react so badly to these statements of his because they are such a great departure from the general high standard of the site. I do think that they are unnecessary, though, detract from the appeal of the site, and are something that he could avoid doing.

You can filter out "The Competition" from the front page. That is why this forum and the filter feature was created. We recognize some, perhaps many, Pocket PC users don't care about competing products.
I'm not sure what that has to do with my points, Ed...
You complain about these statements which occur in this form, Ed tells you how you can avoid seeing them and you don't see what it has to do with your point? :confused totally:

What I don't care for is that Ed is stating his opinion on a site with the word "Thoughts" in the URL and people come here telling him or others they shouldn't do that. I don't post much here but I do enjoy reading it because I know that the site owners say what they feel. They are all Pocket PC fans and yet I've seen all of them rant against its shortcomings. So many other PDA sites sugar coat any problems in their fan platform of choice. Not here. They don't sugar coat anything.

[jmarkevich]

I have to interject and note that drac's comments are very well thought out, intelligent, and polite.

I've also been frustrated with the shallow minds here a few times, and stopped reading the site for a good stretch of time because of it.

I was a serious power Palm user before getting my PPC (OnBoard C compiler -- WordSmith, pedit & LapTopHack, amongst many others), and I now leave my PPC at home more often than I bring it. It's killed my habitual use of a handheld, with the organization and "information trust" I used to have.

I'd go back to Palm in a snap. You guys can keep right on watching movie trailers on your PPCs, maybe you don't ever need fast information (a phone number while talking to someone on the phone... [hang on... stall stall... OK...]) or faith that if your handheld ever died you could still get at everything.

The point... PPCs do a lot of things. For a huge aspect of the consumer population, they're the irrelevant things, but everything else suffers because of them.

I dunno, I'm babbling now. drac can rephrase this for me now... :)

[Janak Parekh]

I have to interject and note that drac's comments are very well thought out, intelligent, and polite.
... and so are most of the responses. I think this has been a pretty respectful thread.

I've also been frustrated with the shallow minds here a few times, and stopped reading the site for a good stretch of time because of it.
There I've gotta disagree with you. Just because some people don't agree doesn't mean they're shallow.

maybe you don't ever need fast information (a phone number while talking to someone on the phone... [hang on... stall stall... OK...]) or faith that if your handheld ever died you could still get at everything.
I don't know how you were using your Pocket PC, but I usually can get my contact information in a second. No doubt some Palms are faster than the fastest Pocket PCs now, but the difference isn't that terrible.

For a huge aspect of the consumer population, they're the irrelevant things, but everything else suffers because of them.
This is the precise point we're debating. This is what people have been saying for years (don't need color, don't need file system, don't need more than 15 categories, etc.) and a lot of us didn't buy into it then. That's why we believe that this is, to some extent, validation. Who determines what is "relevant" or not for the consumer?

--janak

[Partita]

The point... PPCs do a lot of things. For a huge aspect of the consumer population, they're the irrelevant things, but everything else suffers because of them.


more importantly, most PPC can last whole day while POS battery dies long before.

but things like T|T3 and NV admitedly make a nicer and heavier paperweight than PPC.

so yeah, I'd say you have to buy T|T3 less you want your paper all floating about as wind gushes.

[c38b2]

more importantly, most PPC can last whole day while POS battery dies long before.
Not that it really matters but under normal usage (I know that those words aren't exactly scientific) the battery on my POS device lasts longer than the one on my PPC.
but things like T|T3 and NV admitedly make a nicer and heavier paperweight than PPC. so yeah, I'd say you have to buy T|T3 less you want your paper all floating about as wind gushes.
These comments were uncalled for. Comments like these are turning a civil POS vs. PPC into a potential flame war.

[Partita]

more importantly, most PPC can last whole day while POS battery dies long before.
Not that it really matters but under normal usage (I know that those words aren't exactly scientific) the battery on my POS device lasts longer than the one on my PPC.


It's simple really, show a battery chart of T|T3 and I'll show battery chart of h2210, h4155 or 4355.

[yslee]

I'm with drac on this, Ed's bias is very evident, and I certainly never liked the way his tone on Palm topics. drac certainly has been very patient and civil with him though, I think I'd have blown my top a long time ago.

To the one known as Parita: I'm now very sure you're Inktoo from SPUG, do you want me to bap your head with the Wanker's Club of Doom again? :lol:

[Partita]

what?

[Scott R]

What I find so sad is that Ed seems to have stepped up his frequency of these anti-Palm front-page blurbs in an attempt to bring me into the debate. 8)

Scott

PS - As I pointed out previously, Partita = Ska.

[huangzhinong]

I think you guys shouldn't blame ED too much.
There is no PPC news for a long time now. Every new PPC device looks so alike and boring. The PPC OS has no change for more than 4 years now. What do you expect to show up in frontpage? all kind of ppc cases? $39.99 h2210 grips? 50% off from Twopeaks? 90% off from pdamill? or happy birthday to somebody? Nothing. The battle between PPC and POS can always last longer and keep this website a little bit warmer.

[Partita]

What I find so sad is that Ed seems to have stepped up his frequency of these anti-Palm front-page blurbs in an attempt to bring me into the debate. 8)


So what is tapland's take on OS6.0? does it enhance the zod? Is it good for gaming? For some reason I think 100% of zod games won't work on OS6.0.

[Scott R]

So what is tapland's take on OS6.0? does it enhance the zod? Is it good for gaming? For some reason I think 100% of zod games won't work on OS6.0.Tapwave hasn't given any official word on this, but they've basically expressed that an OS6 upgrade is not high on their list of priorities. They state that many of the enhancements with OS6 are already part of the tweaked version of OS5 used in the Zodiac (the ability to run native ARM apps is one, I believe). I'm personally not happy with their position, though, because I'd like the ability to multitask, which I see as the biggest improvement in OS6.

The Zodiac aside, other than OS6 and native ARM apps (which are big improvements to be sure), I'm frankly disappointed by what I'm hearing about OS6. I guess I would have expected to see more GUI improvements. I would also like to see support for native file formats. Five years ago, I don't think this was a big deal, but the world has changed, PDAs have more powerful CPUs, higher-res color screens, and memory expansion, and the core functionality needs to be improved upon.

I'm also not happy about the trend with certain Palm OS manufacturers making exclusive deals with certain software developers. For example, some have told me that the web browser that comes with the Tungsten T3 is one of the better ones, but it isn't compatible with non-palmOne devices. Similarly, the only Palm OS PDAs that have Macromedia Flash compatibility are Sony's.

IOW, Palm is not abandoning "zen" by adding new features. In some cases they've diminished the zen experience by not offering features which should have been implemented by now and/or implementing them poorly.

Scott

[jmarkevich]

I've also been frustrated with the shallow minds here a few times, and stopped reading the site for a good stretch of time because of it.
There I've gotta disagree with you. Just because some people don't agree doesn't mean they're shallow.


drac's comments pointed out how shallow they are. Half truths, invective, insults, intolerance. "Palm OS PDAs are a paperweight". Really, now.


maybe you don't ever need fast information (a phone number while talking to someone on the phone... [hang on... stall stall... OK...]) or faith that if your handheld ever died you could still get at everything.
I don't know how you were using your Pocket PC, but I usually can get my contact information in a second. No doubt some Palms are faster than the fastest Pocket PCs now, but the difference isn't that terrible.


Not even close to a second. I have PI running in the background, and have the today screen come up after (I think) an hour. (I love the plugin, and it serves quite a few of my needs). If I turn on the machine to get a contact, I wait about 3-5 steamboats for the Today screen to come up, then I switch to PI, find the contact... I used to dig out my Palm IIIxe and give someone a number without them realizing I was looking it up.

I'm using a 3650, if you're wondering, and PI is in RAM.


For a huge aspect of the consumer population, they're the irrelevant things, but everything else suffers because of them.
This is the precise point we're debating. This is what people have been saying for years (don't need color, don't need file system, don't need more than 15 categories, etc.) and a lot of us didn't buy into it then. That's why we believe that this is, to some extent, validation. Who determines what is "relevant" or not for the consumer?


IMHO, MP3 players are much better at the task than a PPC could ever be, smaller, cheaper. Thing is, it shouldn't take all that much juice to make it work (memory is another issue). File system is a red herring. What DVD movies do you own that have a comparable file system? Do you have folders and subfolders in a hierarchical tree in your fridge? A file system is not the only nor the best way to organize disparate data.

It has been brought out that the high-end features were nice but the tradeoffs made the *whole device* irrelevant. Remember the old HPCs that could use a PCMCIA card for about 5 minutes before the battery died? Well that was clever! Palm should be ashamed for not including PCMCIA support in their devices!

I remember trying the fresh new Pilot 5000 at a Comdex. The guy told me that they had color versions with a whole megabyte of RAM functioning in R&D. He sas "it works, but the battery runs for (some unreasonably short time). You probably wouldn't want that". I said no, it made sense at the time. Does (unreasonably short time)=today's time? No, I think the devices are more efficient these days than those ones could have been.

As far as the Dragonball thing and the 15 categories, that was obviously a case of stagnation, as drac (again) eloquently posted. Palm has changed its business structure twice in the meantime, and we're essentially dealing with two different companies, much the same as Apple. We can only fairly measure the technology when the technology was the focus, not when marketshare was the business. If we're measuring marketshare, let's post jokes about how MS is still playing 'catch up!'

I have great hopes for the new Cobalt devices. All I want is something that I carry in my pocket, not something that sits on the desk at home.

[Janak Parekh]

drac's comments pointed out how shallow they are. Half truths, invective, insults, intolerance. "Palm OS PDAs are a paperweight". Really, now.
That's one person's opinion on this thread. Doesn't mean all of us are. Note that wasn't a personal attack... although I don't agree with it.

Not even close to a second. I have PI running in the background, and have the today screen come up after (I think) an hour. (I love the plugin, and it serves quite a few of my needs). If I turn on the machine to get a contact, I wait about 3-5 steamboats for the Today screen to come up, then I switch to PI, find the contact... I used to dig out my Palm IIIxe and give someone a number without them realizing I was looking it up.
I don't know what else you're running on your 3650, but my i700's Today screen pops up within a second max. If PI is in the background, it takes, again, less than one second. My 3650 is sitting in my closet gathering dust, but I don't remember it being anywhere near as slow as yours is.

IMHO, MP3 players are much better at the task than a PPC could ever be, smaller, cheaper.
I don't agree, unless you're talking about hard disk-based devices. I've found my Pocket PCs have better audio quality than standalone MP3 players. By converging, you have less things in your pocket. In general, the software players on a Pocket PC have vastly superior playlist management and audio tweaking features. The only advantage flash-based players have is a remote control.

I carry an iPod now, and it's superior in that I have 18GB of music on it. Still, I find its audio quality to be not as good as my iPAQ 3870's was.

File system is a red herring. What DVD movies do you own that have a comparable file system?
My DVD or fridge don't organize Word documents, Excel spreadsheets, email attachments, etc. You seem to be defining a PDA as only an organizer. If you want to do anything more with it, it turns out the filesystem paradigm tends to be the best solution we've developed so far. Many people have tried to replace it with metadata and other mechanisms, but they haven't succeeded yet.

A file system is not the only nor the best way to organize disparate data.
It's certainly better than Palm's database model.

Remember the old HPCs that could use a PCMCIA card for about 5 minutes before the battery died? Well that was clever! Palm should be ashamed for not including PCMCIA support in their devices!
I never actually worked with an HPC myself, but my original iPAQ 3650 with a PC card sleeve lasted far longer with my ORiNOCO WiFi card.

I remember trying the fresh new Pilot 5000 at a Comdex. The guy told me that they had color versions with a whole megabyte of RAM functioning in R&D. He sas "it works, but the battery runs for (some unreasonably short time). You probably wouldn't want that". I said no, it made sense at the time. Does (unreasonably short time)=today's time? No, I think the devices are more efficient these days than those ones could have been.
Pilot 5000 was early-to-mid-90s. Nobody had color PDAs then. But come 2000, with my iPAQ getting 6+ hours of battery life... most Palm users were still insisting B&W was better, and only the IIIc provided color. Not to mention the Casio E-100, which still is considered to have the brightest color screen of all time -- they were doing it in the late 90s.

As far as the Dragonball thing and the 15 categories, that was obviously a case of stagnation, as drac (again) eloquently posted. Palm has changed its business structure twice in the meantime, and we're essentially dealing with two different companies, much the same as Apple.
And yet, we still have 15 categories, and no multiple-categorization! (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is to the best of my knowledge.) Even the Notes 4K memory limit was only fixed in the most recent Tungsten devices. This is years after Yankowski. I'm glad to see them catching up, but the mindset was beyond just "stagnation". At least in my opinion.

We can only fairly measure the technology when the technology was the focus, not when marketshare was the business. If we're measuring marketshare, let's post jokes about how MS is still playing 'catch up!'
Both have always been part of business.

I have great hopes for the new Cobalt devices. All I want is something that I carry in my pocket, not something that sits on the desk at home.
As do I. I don't want to see Palm stagnate, business or technology-wise. The point here is that, in my and others' opinion, Palm was singing a different tune, and they've come full circle, especially with the up-and-coming OS6.

--janak

[jmarkevich]

No need to quote it all... :lol:


A file system is not the only nor the best way to organize disparate data.
It's certainly better than Palm's database model.


Again, I disagree, vigorously. The database model is the future of file systems. Think of the SQL server rumblings as replacing the disk file system. You need metadata, you need searchability, you need context for files. Palm's database model was quite versatile, it provided at least some of those. It needed an update when expansion cards came along, and maybe they didn't go far enough.


Pilot 5000 was early-to-mid-90s. Nobody had color PDAs then. But come 2000, with my iPAQ getting 6+ hours of battery life... most Palm users were still insisting B&W was better, and only the IIIc provided color.


B&W was better. The most significant factor, especially for new PDA users was reliability. Simple hotsync was critical. Battery life was everything. I used to get easily over 40 *DAYS* of active use with my B&W Palms on a single set of AAAs. Would I have sacrificed some of those for color? Yes, for sure. Would I have sacrificed 39 of them? No way, I'd have called you crazy. I'm still not happy with 8h. If I don't charge nor use my iPaq for a couple of days, I don't even get that.

The GameBoy slaughtered all (color screen'ed) competition for the same reason.

[Ed Hansberry]

The GameBoy slaughtered all (color screen'ed) competition for the same reason.
Our kid's gameboys are color. :?:

[ctmagnus]

They used to be B&W (or more appropriately, B&Y).

[Janak Parekh]

Again, I disagree, vigorously. The database model is the future of file systems.
We've had this discussion before, so I'm not going to rehash. Put simply, I agree that a metadata-based or a database-backed system might be the way of the future, but no one has managed to make it fully pervasive and compatible enough with today's systems. Until then, the hierarchical filesystem isn't going anywhere.

B&W was better. The most significant factor, especially for new PDA users was reliability. Simple hotsync was critical. Battery life was everything. I used to get easily over 40 *DAYS* of active use with my B&W Palms on a single set of AAAs. Would I have sacrificed some of those for color? Yes, for sure. Would I have sacrificed 39 of them? No way, I'd have called you crazy.
I disagree. I'm generally much happier with my rechargable Pocket PCs and the bright color screens. I wouldn't go back any day; I personally disliked having to worry about buying a new pair of AAs every few weeks. I also personally think consumers would now be inclined to agree with me, but I don't have the numbers to make that claim, so I won't. ;)

I'm still not happy with 8h. If I don't charge nor use my iPaq for a couple of days, I don't even get that.
I personally recharge my iPod, my iPAQ, my notebook, etc. nightly.

--janak

[Ed Hansberry]

I disagree. I'm generally much happier with my rechargable Pocket PCs and the bright color screens. I wouldn't go back any day; I personally disliked having to worry about buying a new pair of AAs every few weeks. I also personally think consumers would now be inclined to agree with me, but I don't have the numbers to make that claim, so I won't. ;)
Well, the market for B&W AA or AAA battery powered devices has pretty much dried up. Even the $79 Zire has a rechargable Li-Ion. If there was consumer demand for it, believe me, someone would make it and it would be a hit. One of the reasons I picked a Nino as my first PDA lo those many years ago was it had a rechargable battery. I never wanted to fool with buying batteries.

I go so far as to buy rechargable AAs for devices in the house that use them, like my camera.

[Stik]

And in this corner...

Palm and Microsoft to duke it out at Comdex
Last modified: November 10, 2000

When executives from the two companies square off Monday at the Comdex trade show in Las Vegas, each will basically draw the same distinction between their products: ease of use vs. extra features.

" The core argument of their platform against ours is really simplicity vs. ability," Microsoft product manager Ed Suwanjindar said. "Do you want a simple day planner or do you want the ability to do more?"

Palm chief competitive officer Michael Mace sizes up the battle similarly.

"They are trying to build a pocket-sized PC," Mace said. "We think that is the wrong thing to do."

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-248414.html?legacy=cnet

The Debate

Humorous sparring between the two OS camps

In one of the best jabs of the debate, Palm chief competitive officer Michael Mace proclaimed size is a significant factor.

"One you can carry in your pocket," Mace said, referring to a Palm-based handheld. "The other you can carry in your pocket, but it will pull down your pants," he added, pointing to a Compaq iPaq with an attached slide-on sleeve required for adding expansion modules.

However, the Microsoft side recovered later, noting that Mace had not shown the screen on the Palm-based Sony Clie he was showing off.

"If you saw the screen on the Clie you would probably rather use the Pocket PC, even with your pants down," said Compaq vice president Ted Clark, who heads the company's iPaq unit.

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-248541.html?legacy=cnet

[drac]

Thanks, jmarkevitch, yslee. My patience and civility in response to Ed's failures is made easier by the fact that I do respect him, his knowledge, and his efforts.

You complain about these statements which occur in this form, Ed tells you how you can avoid seeing them and you don't see what it has to do with your point?

What I don't care for is that Ed is stating his opinion on a site with the word "Thoughts" in the URL and people come here telling him or others they shouldn't do that.
Many opinions are incorrect or inappropriate. Ed has the right to express his opinion, and I have the right to criticise it. Asserting his right to an opnion, or reminding me that I can ignore or avoid his expression, does not constitute refutation of my observation that his opinions are, with sad frequency, incorrect and/or inappropriate.

I have posted what I feel are valid and substantiated criticisms of his inaccuracies and biases, and called for substantiation for some of his statements. Responding to these criticisms and requests by suggesting that I ignore him really just underscores my points, as does his seeming insistence that it shouldn't matter because he's not a professional. Worse- calls that I "just ignore him" seem like a deeper form of disrespect, as if his opinions were not worthy of comment, or as though his faculties were such that better could not be expected. I refuse to participate in such disrespect.


Don't get me wrong- there are many within the PalmOS community who are far worse than your Ed. It's just that they don't give vent to such expression within an editorial context as far as I can see.

Really, though, I'll be quite content if he can substantiate his claims. I'm happy to sharpen the knife for Yanowski-era Palm; I certainly didn't support them or purchase their devices at that time.


Well, the market for B&W AA or AAA battery powered devices has pretty much dried up. [...] I go so far as to buy rechargable AAs for devices in the house that use them, like my camera.
I agree fully. I loved the PalmOS Handera 330, that gave one the flexibility of AAA support while still using a rechargeable Li battery pack.

I also agree that the market announces its preferences loudly through the medium of sales figures; it is currently saying that it loves the low cost and long battery life of the low-end Zire series as well as the colour screens and more comprehensive featureset of the Tungstens and PocketPC's.

To proclaim one compromise as universally superior to the other, within the current context of component costs and limited battery performance, is arrogant myopia, a puzzling refusal to listen to the firmly-stated preferences of the market.

Of course all this will be different when screen and battery technologies improve to the degree that current limitations are no longer an issue. Fuel cells? OLED's? We're all eager to see what the future will bring, I suppose. And it is now obvious that a company's failure to take this changing context into consideration will lead to its death.

[Ed Hansberry]

Many opinions are incorrect or inappropriate. Ed has the right to express his opinion, and I have the right to criticise it.
1. Opinions cannot be incorrect. That is part of the definition of an opinion.
2. You criticized me several times, not just my opinion. Go back and look at some of your quotes in this thread and tell me which is inappropriate.

Ed's failures
Yet, such advancement is more difficult when the attitude of the editor of this webpage drips with bitter bias and resentment.
the fact of your mischaracerisations
Really, I think that I react so badly to these statements of his because they are such a great departure from the general high standard of the site.(that would be your opinion)
Don't get me wrong- there are many within the PalmOS community who are far worse than your Ed. It's just that they don't give vent to such expression within an editorial context as far as I can see.Strange. I though editorials were where you gave opinions. Oh, wait. Maybe it is only for correct opinions.
Anyway, glad you are here to criticize me personally Drac and keep us all straight.

[drac]

{shrug} Duck and run if you want, Ed. Still, I ask that when you claim to quote Palm in some way, shape, form or fashion, that you back your **** up.

Note also that if I speak of your failures, or of the incorrectness of [some of] your pronouncements, that I am not criticising your person- only your claims. I have never spoken negatively of you, and do not see you in a negative light- and feel I have consistently made that clear.

[Christian]

Note also that if I speak of your failures, or of the incorrectness of [some of] your pronouncements, that I am not criticising your person- only your claims. I have never spoken negatively of you, and do not see you in a negative light- and feel I have consistently made that clear.

For what it’s worth, it has come across as quite clear to me.

[drac]

Thanks- it means a lot.

Cheers!

8)