Less than 3 hours for first charge.... is that normal???

[Draculaaa]

Hello Forum....

My sister just got a Toshiba e405, the manual says that when charging for the first time the orange light (charging) should turn to green (full charge) in around 4 hours. My sister did everything as directed in the "First charge" section of the manual, but the light changed from orange to green in a bit less than 3 hours. Is this normal??, could this be evidence a deffective battery or an open box item??

I talked to her on the phone and inquire about the usual indicators of an open box item: messed platic bags, unsealed CD's, messed cables, etc. and she tells me that she didnt noticed any of this.... she says that the box, CD's and everything was sealed and that nothing showed signs of been previously used or opened.

She bought the unit from Newegg.com and it was advertised as Retail.

One thing that caught my attention is that when she took the unit out of the box to start the charging process, she turned the "Battery supply" switch to the "Supply" position and the PPC turned itself ON... shouldn't the battery be dead on a brand new unit??? ..... she had to turn it off and then plug it into the AC charger.

I have to be a bit picky about the unit because it's actually for me (I'm outside the US), and I have to be sure that everything is ok before she sends it with my dad next thursday.

Is there any test of the battery that I can instruct her to do to check that everything is fine with it?? ( It's the first time she has a PPC on her hands, but she manages very well with electronics stuff)

BTW... she tells me that everything looks ok with the screen, so no worries on that side.

Thanks,

Drac

[Pat Logsdon]

My sister just got a Toshiba e405, the manual says that when charging for the first time the orange light (charging) should turn to green (full charge) in around 4 hours. My sister did everything as directed in the "First charge" section of the manual, but the light changed from orange to green in a bit less than 3 hours. Is this normal??, could this be evidence a deffective battery or an open box item??
Sounds fine to me. I think the "standard" time that every PPC is supposed to charge for the first time is 4 hours. I don't recall if the e405 has an internal backup battery or not, so it could be that the full 4 hours allows BOTH batteries to fully charge. The indicator light is for the main battery only. I think my 4150 took about 3 hours for its first full charge as well.

One thing that caught my attention is that when she took the unit out of the box to start the charging process, she turned the "Battery supply" switch to the "Supply" position and the PPC turned itself ON... shouldn't the battery be dead on a brand new unit??? ..... she had to turn it off and then plug it into the AC charger.
My 4150 came with a 54% charge in the main battery. I think they're fully charged at the factory, and the amount of charge left when you get it is an indicator of how long it had been sitting on the retailer's shelf. :mrgreen: Plus, if it had a charge already, it would obviously not need the full 4 hours for the initial charge.

Is there any test of the battery that I can instruct her to do to check that everything is fine with it?? ( It's the first time she has a PPC on her hands, but she manages very well with electronics stuff)
You may want to check out C|Net or something for some reviews that give an indication of the battery life for that unit, and then have your sister replicate their test(s).

[Robb Bates]

I wouldn't be worried. Most battery charging indicators will indicate fully charged when the battery is actually about 85-90% full. Because batteries charge asymptotically (they charge fast when low and slow when almost full) it would take much longer to get to 100%. So the 4 hour first charge is to let the battery get to 100% instead of the 90% it would get in 3 hours. Depending on the charging circuit, after it gets to about 90% it will trickle charge until it gets to 100%. Kind of like filling up your gas tank when you pre-pay. The pump pumps fast until it gets to the last 20 cents or so and then it slows down. That's kind of what the battery is doing.

That's not exactly the most precise analogy, but I hope it's clear enough.

Robb

[PetiteFlower]

My PPC arrived fully charged. Considering that it's very bad for this type of battery to be fully drained, it shouldn't arrive from the factory totally dead. Also my battery meter reads 100% for quite a while before the light turns green, I'd assume that means the light turns green only when the "trickle charging" is done and the battery is fully charged. I would guess that the longer it's been in the box before you buy it, the more dead it will be.....I have a dell so it was probably charged, boxed, and shipped the same day, I got it a week later, that's why it was still fully charged.

I wouldn't worry about the time it takes to charge, if the light was green, then the battery was full. All good :)

[Robb Bates]

Also my battery meter reads 100% for quite a while before the light turns green

Exactly my point Petite! Thanks. You've probably also noticed that when you've charged overnight, and start using your PPC, the battery meter will stay at 100% for a while before it starts dropping. I guess the meter's 100% mark is actually the battery's 90% capacity. And any extra charging after the meter gets to 100% is trickle charging, or topping off the battery.

Battery science is a weird thing. Luckily, the newer batteries can take more abuse.

So Draculaaa, as long as you get several hours out of your battery (depends on how you use it) it's probably OK. If it dies after 20 minutes of use after being fully charged, then I'd start worrying.

Robb

[Draculaaa]

Thanks for all the replies! :)

From all of your posts I believe that it's ok, of course I've tell my sister to play with it as much as she can, this way we'll know if it's holding the charge well.

BTW.... it seems that many people suggests that the Lit-ion batteries should not be left to completely drain, when is the best time to charge, when the first low bat warning appears ??

Some people suggest to charge your handheld everynight, even if you have a good amount of charge left, is that a good recommendation ?, doesn't each charging cycle also takes a bit of life of a battery?.

My previous handheld was a Mono Sony Clie (with a Lit-ion battery), I had it for one and a half year and only charge it when the first low bat warning appeared. When my Clie was new I got about 14 hours of use per charge, around 4-5 days of use. When I sold it one and a half year later the battery was still rock solid, delivering the same 14 hours of use. I'm positive that one of the reasons it was in so good shape was the fact that I tried to minimize the charging cycles.

I know that I can only expect 3-4 hours of use per charge with my new PPC, which maybe can last me for two days max, but I'm not sure if I should keep the practice of charging when getting the first low bat warning or just charging everynight.

Thanks.

Drac

[Robb Bates]

Hmmm, that'll bring out many different opinions. As for me, I don't charge every night. But I rarely let it run all the way down until I get a low battery warning. If I use it a good amount during the day, I'll charge it that night. But if it sits in my pocket and I only look up a contact or two, I'll let it be until the next day.

Of course, since my track record has been to upgrade to a new device about once a year, I rarely have any issues with degraded battery life.

I say rarely, because my Visor Prism battery died after much use when my wife got it as a hand-me-down.

When they say don't let it run all the way down, I think they mean down to the point where you can't turn on your PPC. If it's yelling at you that it's a 10% and you need to charge it, then it should still be OK, otherwise, the manufacturer wouldn't have allowed the device to operate at such a low voltage.

So my suggestion is, don't charge it every night, but don't let it run all the way down. Charge it based on usage.

Robb

[Mandrake]

Pocket PCs generally use Li-Ion or Li-Polymer batteries, to all intents and purposes they are the same when it comes to charging.

Li-Ion batteries have a slightly counter-intuitive property that if you discharge them too far, then they stop working for ever. In fact, to stop this happening, Li-Ion batteries have lots of monitoring electronics in them so that it is actually very difficult to break them. This is one of several reasons why they cost so much!

For this reason the batteries will be supplied with charge in them so that as they sit on the shelf, slowly discharging themselves (all batteries do this, although Li-Ions are not particularly badly affected), they do not stop working. The suggestion that it should take 4 hours to charge first time is probably based on an assumption that the battery will have been sitting on a shelf for, say, 6 months. If anything, you probably have a newer unit, rather than one that's been used!

When it comes to charging Li-Ion batteries it is best to top them up regularly, rather than let them discharge. For this reason I tend to leave my Pocket PC (Jornada 565) on its cradle most of the time I'm not using it. This also means that it always has a full battery when I leave the house! I definitely wouldn't suggest waiting until it reaches the warning point, because over time this will reduce the capacity of the battery.

I hope this is accurate, as it's part of my electronic engineering degree course, and I have an exam on it soon!

[Pat Logsdon]

Mandrake is right - keep it topped up, and don't discharge fully.

Janak posted a link to a battery guide (http://www.technick.net/public/code/index.php?load_page=http%3A//www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php%3Faiocp_dp%3Dguide_bpw2_c10_06%26PHPSESSID%3Dca21855f80b1e68cac6c1311c7798a63) a LOOONG time ago that I found interesting.

[Aerestis]

I had no idea, this information is extremely helpful. I was under the impression that you drain your battery as much as possible before you use charge it next. Thankfully I read this, hehe.

[Mandrake]

I had no idea, this information is extremely helpful. I was under the impression that you drain your battery as much as possible before you use charge it next. Thankfully I read this, hehe.

If you have a device that uses NiCd or NiMH batteries, then that is exactly what you are supposed to do! Of course, most small portable devices that need lots of power like PPCs and mobile phones now use LiIon. Except for those that don't. So pay close attention!

[PetiteFlower]

Right the last generation of batteries, it was GOOD to drain them all the way before charging. The newer batteries are the opposite. Confusing much? :) The manufacturers should do a better job of educating the consumers to make their batteries last longer, lots of people don't know that draining Lion batteries is bad for them.

[benixau]

The generally accepted lowest point for charging a lithium (Li-ion/Li-Poly) is 40%. It can go lower (to empty of course) but any lower than about 40% will cause the battery degradation to occur a little faster for the time that it is below 40%. Some modern batteries are good to 30% but these are normally very expensive and have 'big' capacities above about 1500-1600mAh (like the extended iPaq 4000 series batteries).

My suggestion if if reads 40%, chuck in on a charger for about 30mins if you need it on the go.

[Janak Parekh]

The other thing worth mentioning is that Li-Ion and Li-Poly batteries "improve" a little after a few weeks' time as they "settle in". I found this most effect to be most dramatic on my original iPAQ and SE T68. It's less pronounced nowadays.

--janak