California Beefs Up Bans On Screens In The Front Seat

[Ed Hansberry]

http://www.itsa.org/resources.nsf/Files/AB%20301-chaptered/$file/AB%20301-chaptered.pdf<br /><br />Existing California law already prohibits television screens from displaying video in the front seat while the vehicle is in motion. "This bill would recast this prohibition and, additionally, would prohibit any person from driving a motor vehicle if a video monitor, or a video screen, or any other, similar means of visually displaying a video signal that produces entertainment or business applications..."<br /><br />I've seen a lot of posts on the internet about this recently and not sure what the big deal is. They specifically exclude GPS/directional applications. I doubt an MP3 player would qualify as the controls for that or "digital controls" on a Pocket PC are usually less complex than those of a car radio on your dash board - especially one that is <a href="http://www.handango.com/brainstore/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=311&productId=90635">voice controlled</a>. :D <a href="http://www.adobe.com">Adobe Reader required</a> to read the above link.

[Jimmy Dodd]

My reading of this is that it would be illegal to operate a laptop in the front passenger seat while someone else is driving. Likewise, it sounds as though playing a Gameboy in the front passenger seat would also be illegal.

Noticably absent is the restrictions on applying makeup or shaving while driving, both of which I saw on my daily commute this morning. :wink:

[jt3]

Don't get me wrong here... I am not advocating the use of watching TV while driving, so in principle, I think this is a good idea, and I'm all for making it against the law. However, I find it funny that the lawmakers apparently think this is a HUGE problem, while (at least according to my observations while driving to work) shaving, applying makeup, or reading a newspaper... all while driving, mind you... are all apparently completely acceptable actions, which don't present any danger or are in any way cause for alarm.

...and don't even get me started on cell phone use. How the $&@% did we get to the point where being cut off from a telephone for 30 seconds was enough to initiate a panic attack? If subdermal (as in, surgically implanted) cell phones were introduced tomorrow, there'd no doubt be millions of people fighting to be the first to go under the knife. Yet, how many of these cell-phone-junkies actually think to go out and buy a $20 (or less) headset? People who can't even figure out how to operate the three-position turn indicator lever, somehow think they can operate a 2000 lb. vehicle (one handed) and simultaneously operate an electronic instrument with over a dozen buttons. People who can't even concentrate on walking while on their cell phone, somehow think that operating a car at 70MPH while using it is much much easier. Simply amazing.

Anyhoo... now that I've completely gotten off the subject, as long as the lawmakers let me continue to use my GPS-enabled PDA while driving, I'll be a happy camper.

[Jimmy Dodd]

... especially one that is voice controlled (http://www.handango.com/brainstore/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=311&productId=90635). :D

At the risk of drifting off-topic here, just when did Microsoft make a trial of Voice Command available? That was one of the biggest complaints I heard when they released it (well, maybe it was second after the price). Did I miss a memo somewhere??? :?

Edit: Hmmm, a 1-Day trial.

[Paragon]

OT

Ed, since Jason lives in the heart of cattle country you should probably try not using the word "beef" and ban" in the same sentance. ;) :)

On topic.

I have recently started using GPS, and my first time out I cut someone off when I drifted into the next lane. I think there is a real learning curve we should all be very aware of. GPS can be very distracting especially to the new user. Better a voice enabled devices such as that then a 3 foot square map though!

Dave

[Bob Anderson]

I'm so tired of these foolish "laws" meant to protect us.

The reality is, you can't legislate in an attempt to stop stupidity. All over the country (USA) jurisdictions want to ban cell phones while driving, etc.

Reality is, people started crashing cars the minute automakers put light switches on the dash! I can't count the number of times I've read in the paper how someone wrecked their car while they were fiddling with the radio...

Why don't we ban everything in the front seat of the car except the steering wheel, brake pedal, gas pedal, and possibly a clutch pedal. All radio, climate controls and other "distractions" be put in the back seat!

Realistically... I'm in a vanpool, and occupy the front passenger seat. I use my laptop everyday... I constantly check with our driver to make sure it's not a distraction (or blocking) and not a single time has he complained.

California needs to worry about their economy - not what types of screens **may** occupy the front seat.

[surur]

Just so people know, pda's are banned too, especially when used for GPS, as it is a multi-function device with no lock to stop you from doing something else on the move (that is the only way to use a multi-function device) So definitely a pda running tom-tom or mapolosis on an arkron mount, even with voice direction, is banned by this new law.

Even worse, as a PASSENGER in the front seat you could not listen to music on your pda, as its got a large display. (even that IPod has a large screen, and can store your calender).

Laws which are so stupid just cause people to disrespect all laws. I just hope this foolish idea does not spread to the rest of the world.

Surur

[bspline]

Laws which are so stupid just cause people to disrespect all laws. I just hope this foolish idea does not spread to the rest of the world.

Surur

The "world" as far as I'm concerned might be just ahead of you guys...
Here in Brazil (traffic laws are federal, so they do apply to the whole country) the cell ban is in effect for over a year. And it does include headsets, as they too can be distracting.
Unfortunately, the high rate of disregard for the "stupid" laws still costs us much in lives. Unlike in the US, 99% of our cars have shift-gear, automatic being luxury items. Try to talk on the phone, shift a fourth and signal a left all at the same time...
Not good.

[david291]

I'm so tired of these foolish "laws" meant to protect us. The reality is, you can't legislate in an attempt to stop stupidity.
Exactly! Let's just create a law making it illegal to be stupid, and be done with it.

[BarryB]

I'm so tired of these foolish "laws" meant to protect us.

The reality is, you can't legislate in an attempt to stop stupidity. All over the country (USA) jurisdictions want to ban cell phones while driving, etc.

Not everyone is clearly as intelligent as you or the van driver. Such laws are not designed to protect stupid drivers who want to wrap their cars around telephone poles so they can watch a DVD while driving.

It's to protect the innocent victims caught in the crash.

Imagine how you would feel if it were your wife or your child killed by such a driver. Imagine how you would feel if you were told you could never walk again because of such a driver.

This is not to say that visual distractions such as laptops are a big deal in cars. I think someone ought to have a law about keeping both hands on the wheel: no drinking, no eating, no cell phones, no makeup. But that's not likely to happen.

[Jonathan1]

This is asinine. What about cars that have GPS LCD displays in them are they going to ban these cars? In a few years GPS is going to be in every model. So what are cops going to have border patrol to keep those wacky GPSers out of their fair state!?!?
I'm sick of the government trying to keep everyone safe from everything. Fact of the matter is s*** (otherwise know as life.) happens. I think the seatbelt law is a prime example of this. If some moron wants to NOT wear his/her seatbelt that is their prerogative. If they want to take the chance of going through the windshield that is also their prerogative.
What I can see as legit is cell phone bans, and moving video bans but what of GPS!?!? This is a useful tool. Would you prefer someone have an open map on the steering wheel (I almost got rear ended by some idiot looking at a map.)

With my laptop situated on the center console I can spend 2 seconds, when appropriate, to check where I am vs. glancing at a map trying to find my current location and then the road I need to turn off onto. I've used MapPoint for 3 years now and have not had any mishaps because of it. You see there is this cool device that people have. Its called a brain and it got this feature that allows you to distinguish appropriate and non-appropriate times to take risks. Unfortunately, IMHO, it seems like a lot of people have this feature disabled out of the factory. Heck there are more then a few

[Ed Hansberry]

This is asinine. What about cars that have GPS LCD displays in them are they going to ban these cars?
Did you not read the post? GPS/directional tools are specifically excluded from the ban.

[surur]

This is asinine. What about cars that have GPS LCD displays in them are they going to ban these cars? In a few years GPS is going to be in every model

Navigation equipment are specifically except, but only as long as it is the only function of the equipment, or it could be locked while the vehicle is moving, so that it is single function during that time. Your standard laptop or pda with map point would not qualify, but built-in GPS units would.

On a more philosophical note: How much risk is worthwhile for our convenience. I would say quite a bit. If everybody stayed at home and never drove, no one would be killed in car accidents. If we banned all 6o year olds from the road due to impending senility (in a very small fraction) I'm sure we could prevent a few hundred accidents per year. And have you heard that loud music make people drive faster? What about volume limiters on our car stereos.

It might appear callous to pay some-one Else's life for your own convenience, but I say a small convenience for 100's of millions (e.g mobile phones, GPS units etc) are worth a few 100's of lives. That the price we pay for living in society. We make a similar (but less overt) judgement when we allow coal fired power generation for people's TV's and microwaves, which cause asthma and lung cancer and kill a few hundred of people every year. Thats just life.

Surur (who hopes he wont be banned from wearing a WALKman while WALKing, in case I injure myself or run into some-one)

[Pat Logsdon]

This really makes me mad, and I don't really see the point, especially if they're going to exlude INSTALLED GPS systems. Why is it ok to have a screen 3 times the size of a Pocket PC if it's in a Lexus or a BMW? Basically what they're saying is that if you've got 2 or 3 grand to drop on a nav system for your new luxury car, you can have one. But if you're a regular schmoe who uses another method for GPS navigation, you're screwed.

My guess is that the auto industry lobbyists threw a) a fit, b) lots of money, or c) both at the California Legislature, the Governator, or both.

I mean, come on - Arnie repeals the $300 new-car tax, but takes away something I use every day? I'd rather spend the $300 every 3 years, thanks.

Normally, I'm not even vaguely class-conscious - I'd like a BMW or an Aston Martin just like the next guy, but this is just grotesque.

[T-Will]

I wish we'd make a law that there would be no new laws... :?

[denivan]

What about the I-drive system in the BMW 7 series ?

Is the BMW 7 gonna be outlawed ? :p

btw, im thinking of using my ipaq 3660 as a
GPS...what software, car holders, gps mouse (non BT)
do you suggest ?

Ivan

[Ed Hansberry]

Navigation equipment are specifically except, but only as long as it is the only function of the equipment, or it could be locked while the vehicle is moving, so that it is single function during that time. Your standard laptop or pda with map point would not qualify, but built-in GPS units would.

I am no lawyer, but that isn't the way I read it.

27602. (a) A person may not drive a motor vehicle if a television receiver, a video monitor, or a television or video screen, or any other, similar means of visually displaying a television broadcast or video signal that produces entertainment or business applications, is operating and is located in the motor vehicle at any point forward of the back of the driver’s seat, or is operating and visible to the driver while driving the motor vehicle.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to the following equipment when
installed in a vehicle:
(1) A vehicle information display.
(2) A global positioning display.
(3) A mapping display.
It doesn't say the mapping/GPS display is only capable of displaying mapping/GPS, just that that is all it is doing if in use. Of course, what does "installed" mean? A mounting bracket or must it be hardwared into the vehicle where easy extraction isn't possible?

[fonze73]

Reading through the law there are two things that grab my attention, both of which are in (b). First is the world "installed" (Subdivision (a) does not apply to the following equipment when INSTALLED in a vehicle." There is no definition of what "installed" means. Second is item (b)(3) "A mapping display."

Depending on how a court defines "installed" even a portable GPS would be illegal because it is not "installed," i.e. a permanent part of the car. Now, if "installed" does not require the installation to be permanent then a laptop running mapping software could be used, see (b)(3). Since "mapping display" is not defined as a unit whos only function is to display a map then a laptop running mapping software should be able to get by (depending on "installed"). Since section (b) is a list item (5) would not have to apply to the laptop if it can be exempted under (3).

Looking at the law the big question is how "installed" gets defined.

Henry

[surur]

Navigation equipment are specifically except, but only as long as it is the only function of the equipment, or it could be locked while the vehicle is moving, so that it is single function during that time. Your standard laptop or pda with map point would not qualify, but built-in GPS units would.

I am no lawyer, but that isn't the way I read it.

27602. (a) A person may not drive a motor vehicle if a television receiver, a video monitor, or a television or video screen, or any other, similar means of visually displaying a television broadcast or video signal that produces entertainment or business applications, is operating and is located in the motor vehicle at any point forward of the back of the driver’s seat, or is operating and visible to the driver while driving the motor vehicle.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to the following equipment when
installed in a vehicle:
(1) A vehicle information display.
(2) A global positioning display.
(3) A mapping display.
It doesn't say the mapping/GPS display is only capable of displaying mapping/GPS, just that that is all it is doing if in use. Of course, what does "installed" mean? A mounting bracket or must it be hardwared into the vehicle where easy extraction isn't possible?

The way I read it, point 1-4 in section b names specific devices, and point 5 (which you did not list) covers general devices, which can be used for point 1-4, as long as it has an "interlock device that, when driven, disables the equipment for all uses accept as a visual display as described in paragraph (1) to (4), inclusive".

Of course, IANAL, but it seems pretty clear to me what their view regarding general purpose devices (e.g lap tops and pocketpc's) are.

Surur

[ctmagnus]

You see there is this cool device that people have. Its called a brain and it got this feature that allows you to distinguish appropriate and non-appropriate times to take risks. Unfortunately, IMHO, it seems like a lot of people have this feature disabled out of the factory. Heck there are more then a few

I concur.

And what gets me is all the Californians who have $3000+ custom MP3/WMA/OGG players installed in their trunks will have to ditch them (at least the display/navigation system) as they would meet the standards set by this law. And they're not likely to be the ones causing the accidents. In my experience it's the people who think they're all big-shot with their cool new technology from Staples/Best Buy/7-11 that are more often the problem. Kinda like the "power users" who cause all the problems.

[whydidnt]

Has California already banned the use of Cell Phones in the front seat? If not, they effectively have with this law. Almost every Cell Phone sold today has a "video display" that can be used for entertainment or business purposes. As I read it, you can't even use it with a headset, since it would still obviously be in the front seat.

So much for that new Smartphone or Treo you were thinking of buying. This is a moronic law that once again proves that lawmakers do not understand technology. I would be willing to wager that they did not intend to ban cell phones from the front seat, but they have given every law enforcement officer the ability to decide who can or can't use one now.

Why the hell is technology consistently thought of as the root of all evil by lawmakers, when old issues such as reading, applying makeup, eating, etc. are allowed to continue?

I strongly believe that for every 2 new laws passed, the legislature should also have to remove an old law. This would give all a moment to think about some of the idiotic laws passed, and hopefully remove some old worthless laws from the books.

whydidnt

[EnsignRam]

This is what happens when OLD lawmakers make decisions on NEW technology. More and more these days we find that lawmakers are making decisions on technology that they do not comprehend.

Give me a break in PA state, routers are "illegal" because they "conceal IP addresses" !!

[SD-Realtor]

This is great to know... Living in Southern California, I have already been pulled over for having tint on my front side windows - and they aren't even that dark. Luckily there are a couple of legal loopholes that allowed me to keep it on.

Anyways, when I was using my ipaq gps the other day, and a cop rolled up next to me where he could see it, I turned off the screen immediately. I wasn't sure whether or not it was legal, knowing that tv's or dvd screens are against the law. Now I know it is perfectly a-o.k.! I'm actually going to print this "legal section 27602" and put it in my glove just in case. I'm sure there are many cops around here that might be unclear about it and say it is illegal.

Thanks for the post! :D
Jeff

[daS]

... and is located in the motor vehicle at any point forward of the back of the driver’s seat, or is operating and visible to the driver while driving the motor vehicle.
So you could use a Bluetooth GPS receiver on the dash with your Pocket PC face down on the center console sitting just behind the back of your seat. With voice commands, this would work.

I could also see a mod for some enterprising GPS company to have their software to have a "California mode" that disables all other programs from running on the Pocket PC and/or laptop.

Still, the bottom line here is that this is just another typical example of the Government wanting to play "mommy". :evil:

I don't have a problem with extra penalties for moving violations caused by driving while distracted. This should be true regardless of the reason for the distraction: eating, drinking, farding (putting on makeup), adjusting the radio, talking on a cell phone, talking to other passengers, reading a book, etc., etc., etc.

Also, if you cause injury to someone due to these activities, then the liability should be higher.

But stop trying to regulate every little detail of our lives. Certainly many of the distractions listed above are more dangerous than using a GPS on a PDA. I remember my dad turning around to yell at my sister (never at me :wink: ) while driving. And I myself have had to try to navigate using a printed map or written directions - all far more distracting than my Pocket PC. But it seems that when the morons in Sacramento are not trying to spend my money, they are trying to pass more laws to tell me how I must live my life using the little they let me keep. :roll:

[SD-Realtor]

So you could use a Bluetooth GPS receiver on the dash with your Pocket PC face down on the center console sitting just behind the back of your seat. With voice commands, this would work.



The way I (and I think others) am reading the law is that for gps purposes, you are allowed to have the screen in the front. So putting your pocket pc face down behind the back seat is not necessary.
Jeff

P.s. daS- Farding means putting on makeup? I've never heard that one before. Interesting.

[garrans]

Didn't you all hear about the BMW driver in Europe who drove right off the end of the pier after his GPS / Nav system showed a road continuing across the river (it was actually a ferry crossing.)

Actually, text entry systems on GPS units (Hertz AlwaysLost) are a classic way to have a crash while driving in a unknown city in unknown traffic.

Alternatively, I suggest that all Video display devices have a g-force chip in them that records the video output and triggers when a crash occurs, recording the last contents of the screen (ie. black box style) for perusal by the authorities following a collision.

[daS]

The way I (and I think others) am reading the law is that for gps purposes, you are allowed to have the screen in the front. So putting your pocket pc face down behind the back seat is not necessary.
Not if you read:
as long as it has an "interlock device that, when driven, disables the equipment for all uses accept as a visual display as described in paragraph (1) to (4), inclusive".
Since the Pocket PC doesn't have "an interlock device", it wouldn't be allowed in the front.

P.s. daS- Farding means putting on makeup? I've never heard that one before. Interesting.
You mean you don't know about women farding in their cars? :lol:

[Casio Collector]

Well, it seemed we got off pretty lightly over here in the UK - All we have is a ban of mobile phones without a handset which was introduced in Decenmber!!!

Timothy Monger-Godfrey

[Ravenswing]

I live in the UK and we just had a law come in (from 1 Dec, I think) to ban the use of "handheld mobile phones while driving". Took me until the day or so before the law was active to find out what that meant, and then I was disgusted. I bought a little gizmo that lets me clamp the phone to an air vent, and I've worn a headset in the car for a year or so, so that's covered. Now I can fiddle with the controls, press buttons, make calls, collect mail, anything I like. What I can't do is take the phone out of its cradle while the engine is switched on... even in the drive at my house, with the handbrake engaged. Because, if I did, I'd have a "handheld mobile phone" and that's illegal.

Now, technically, if I fiddle with my phone while driving, I can be caught for "driving without due care and attention." No one has yet explained why they needed a completely new law when "driving without due care and attention" seems to cover using a phone in the car anyway, but I guess the government thought it had to get some legislation through last year.

My point is: it doesn't really matter what this new California Law actually says, it's how it's enforced that matters. If it can be interpreted such that a PDA on your dashboard is illegal, and a local cop doesn't like your personalised number plate, you're stuffed.

Oh, and mobile phone use in cars should be banned. Phone calls are distracting and cause loss of concentration on your driving. OTOH, radios, mini-skirts, and passengers should also be banned, since they do the same.

[Tienshiao]

What about police cars with their laptops mounted on the dash? I'm pretty sure they're for "business" purposes and not for navigation.

Oops.

[Wasp]

I am not sure if this was discussed, so I will put my two cents (0k a nickel with inflation). I recently read that people talking on their cell phones had a very slow response time (I seem to recall that it was similar to .08 blood alchohol). It was not the punching the buttons that caused the problem, it was that the persons were concentrating on the conversation and not the road. So hands free operation is not the cure all.

On a personal side, a colleague at work demonstrated this issue. I am sure he was normally a good driver, but about 2 years ago, he ran a red light and slammed into the side of a tanker truck. He was talking to his boyfriend and hadn't noticed that the light had changed (Note I said talking, not dialing). The collision crushed the top of his white 1998 VW beatle, but fortunately he only received a few cuts & bruises. One thing he did swear to though was to never use a cell phone while driving. 8)

[daS]

What about police cars with their laptops mounted on the dash?
They are specifically excluded.

[ctmagnus]

What about police cars with their laptops mounted on the dash?
They are specifically excluded.

An easy answer to all this: become a cop! :wink: