What GPS hardware?, recommendations please

[MikeStanley]

I have an HP 2210 pocketpc - so it has SD and CF slots.
I would like to have a cheap implemetation of GPS, not all this fancy talking and car mounted - just plotting position against a good map, and a bit of help if I get lost, plus route recommendation.

I like the look of Mapopolis and it's UK / Europe maps (I live in the UK), the facilities lokk just what I want, but what's the best choice of GPS hardware for me?, I think I would prefer CF, but as it's not to be all singing / dancing - the a good value unit is more important.

And where would you recommend to buy in the UK.

Thanks for any help given.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[SeanH]

I would recommend spending a little extra money and pick up a Bluetooth GPS. There are about 10 out now.

If you still want a low cost solution I would recommend a serial GPS. If you hardwire the power you will be able to track your location with in a second of plugging it in to the PDA.

I strongly recommend you do not purchase a CF GPS. A GPS need about 40% view of the sky. You can put the PDA on the dash but it might not be easy to read or it might fall off a lot. A solution is to purchase and external antenna. Most of the external antennas are the same size as a serial GPS. The other issue with a CF GPS is when you press the power button on the PDA to go into stand by the CF card power downs. When you turn the PDA back on the CF GPS starts tracking satellites this can take between 30 seconds to 4 minutes to lock on three to triangulate your location.

I have talked to many people that claim their CF GPS picks up a signal in a couple of seconds but I take a stop watch out and prove them wrong every time.

[MikeStanley]

Thanks for the reply, I am doing a bit of research and learning all the time. I must admit I had not considered a serial device - but will !!!

Haxelman started a thread off on 7th December 2003 called "GPS" , and one reply was interesting from JimH


You might want to review the various articles at gpspassion.com. It is full of information to help with your education and decision-making. In my case, I have a Holux 270 CF card with Mapopolis. It has been a great combination for the 221x. If you want to use your BT, there are numerous BT GPS devices available.


Bt seems double the price of Serial - quite a difference.

Again, thanks for your reply


Mike

[Sven Johannsen]

Keep in mind the singing and dancing is not a function of the hardware at all, it is a function of the software. Mapopolis does a considerable show BTW. The hardware, from $30 closeout Radio Shack unit, to $400 BT/serial/usb combo units all do only one thing. They recieve signals and pass lat, long, & altitude to the map software. Ok, time, if the software asks for it, and satellite stats which really don't mean much usefull as far as finding your way. If you have Mapopolis you can even use it (as most mapping software) without a GPS. You still get zoomable maps, location finding capabilities, routing (depending on the software), on the map or in text. If you used to get places using a paper map, and a highlighter, or printing out MapQuest directions, you don't have to have a GPS to make a PPC a useful navigation tool.

All that said, there certainly are accuracy, acquisition speed, and lock retention differences in the hardware. There are also convinience differences in size, power, cabling. www.gpspassion.com is a good place to get comparative reviews.

I personnally have a Socket BT that I wouldn't leave home without on a trip. It is at the top of the heap of a half dozen or so options along the way. But they are pricey. Would have been cheaper to just get it in the first place though, ;)

[SeanH]

It’s a little more involved then receiving lat and long info from the hardware and plotting it on a map. The GPS software needs to receive data from three satellites to triangulate a location.

Here is a good explanation I pulled off a web site:
------
The receiver measures the time required for the signal to travel from the satellite to the receiver, by knowing the time that the signal left the satellite, and observing the time it receives the signal, based on its internal clock. If the receiver had a perfect clock, exactly in sync with those on the satellites, three measurements, from three satellites, would be sufficient to determine position in 3 dimensions.
-----

It takes between 30 seconds to a few minutes to start sending valid data from three satellites to the PDA. A serial or BT GPS with constant power does not have that issue because it always tracking even though the PDA is not hooked up. A CF GPS has to start cold every time the PDA is turned on.

A good hardware and software solution are very important. The best software I have used for PPC over the last 3 years is Routis. I have tried just about every app over the last three years. Its only for the US.

[Frosty Vibe]

After a lot of reading, it looks like BT GSP is the way to go.

You do get more flexibility in term of placement and that in most cases do help reception.

If your car has sun-roof, you can place your receiver between the ceiling and sun-roof to advantage of the clear sky view.

LeadTek 9537 BT receiver seems to work quite well too.

I am not familiar with its price outside of Taiwan but it's less than GBP 100.

That's the unit I am buying next year.

Possibly along with a 2210 ( or 1940... to save some money for maps )

Holux's GR230 and Fortuna's dual mode BT GPS seems like great choices as well.

[Chris Spera]

I did a huge review on the TomTom GPS Systems at pocketnow.com (both wired and wireLESS units) While in my opinion the way they have cut maps could be improved, the data is accurate, and the app is easy to use.

This is a good system and should be a good choice regardless of what PPC you own.


Kind Regards,


Christopher Spera

[Sven Johannsen]

It’s a little more involved then receiving lat and long info from the hardware and plotting it on a map. The GPS software needs to receive data from three satellites to triangulate a location.

Not quite. Actually the firmware in the GPS hardware needs to get data from 3 sats for 2D fixes and 4 for 3D (lat, long, alt). The location is what is passed to the mapping program after it is already calculated by the GPS hardware. So, yes the software does need 3+ sats, but that is the software in the GPS hardware, not the mapping software. There is some room for error in the firmware algorithm, since you are solving for four variables in four equations, but I would think that would induce minimal problems. Other natural factors will contribute more to the errors.

Keep in mind that you can even get most any real GPS (eTrex, SportTrak), that has a serial PC capability and use it as the info source for the PPC GPS software. That gives you a PPC option when appropriate, and a rugged GPS when you are whitewater rafting or something. This of course assumes your PPC has a serial capability, which the 2215 does.

[MikeStanley]

Sven wrote
Keep in mind that you can even get most any real GPS (eTrex, SportTrak), that has a serial PC capability and use it as the info source for the PPC GPS software. That gives you a PPC option when appropriate, and a rugged GPS when you are whitewater rafting or something. This of course assumes your PPC has a serial capability, which the 2215 does.


Thanks I didn't realise that
Is there anything else needed apart from the right cable to make it work. I would guess the cable goes into the sync plug at the bottom.

What am I looking for on the specification to make it "real"

PS. What does MS MVP mean?

[disconnected]

I have a bluetooth GPS (Fortuna GPSmart), and usually keep both the GPS and iPAQ plugged in while using the GPS. If you get one that needs the serial connection, I don't know how many of them have the sort of split cord that can plug into the lighter socket and provide power to both the Pocket PC and the GPS unit.

I once had a rental car that didn't provide power to the lighter socket when the car was turned off. This was a pain, because every time we turned off the car for a while, it took an age to re-acquire the signal when we turned it back on. I think this may be a flaw with my particular unit, but what seems to be common with all the GPSmart units is a tendency to run off battery power whenever batteries are present, even if the units are plugged in.

My next GPS will still be bluetooth, but it will have a semi-long-lasting cell phone type battery, and a sleep feature to save power when nothing is connected to it. I think both of these features exist now, but I'm not sure if any brand currently has both features.

[SeanH]

Sven wrote
So, yes the software does need 3+ sats, but that is the software in the GPS hardware, not the mapping software.

That is not true. If you have a NEMA compliant GPS the hardware in the GPS passes date from each satellite to the software and the software takes that data and triangulates the location. There are a few new GPS chip sets that have an ARM CPU to do the triangulation in the chip set but they are not NEMA compliant. Every NEMA compliant GPS that has shipped over the last few years does not give lat and long info.

Here is a new device out from Mot with a ARM CPU to calculate lat and long:

http://www.motorola.com/ies/GPS/products_positioning.html

All the existing chip sets do not do that.

[Sven Johannsen]

Sven wrote
So, yes the software does need 3+ sats, but that is the software in the GPS hardware, not the mapping software.

That is not true.

OK, if you say so. Not worth arguing about. NMEA is just a data protocol spec, and if you read the sentences passed to the PPC, you can read the Lat/Long right in there. One salient one would be
$GPGGA,POS_UTC,LAT,LAT_REF,LONG,LONG_REF,FIX_MODE,SAT_USED,HDOP,ALT,ALT_UNIT,GEO,G_UNIT,D_AGE,D_REF*CC<cr><lf>

By 'real' GPS I just mean a unit designed to be a single function, stand-alone GPS unit, with controls, display, memory, etc. Not much you can do with a Socket BT Recv'r by itself ;) Not all, but many of these have data ports designed to upload and download points of interest (waypoints), maps etc. Those that do generally use a serial interface and the NMEA standard for information transfer. Most mapping programs that interface with assorted GPSs also expect the NMEA protocol along with their own proprietary protocol sets. So, yes, really all you would need is the right cable. You can create one with the PPC serial sync cable, the GPS data cable and a null modem, or get one for your particular pair at various vendors. www.pc-mobile.net is one.

MS-MVP is a designation awarded by Microsoft. You can read about it here. http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-US;mvpintro Several of the regular contributors, writers, and Jason himself is an MVP.

[drag0n]

GPSmart by fortuna is both a "real gps" - with basic standalone features, and BT/Serial GPS. All three modes can be used simultanously.
there is a nice review in www.gpspassion.com

[MikeStanley]

Thanks to you all.

After much research I think the best for me is a Garmin Etrex.

I am now on the lookout for a good second hand etrex or legend or vista on ebay.

The thought of also having a rugged version for the ski slopes is great, and all the technology in loading and unloading maps is appealing.

I don't know why but the US price is much lower than the Europe price (OK it's normal but the difference on ebay for new from US is staggering - trouble is the base maps would be US)

I still haven't worked out if the base maps can be replaced - anybody know?

Again thanks to all that have contributed - I think the purchase in the end will be much better because of it.

[SeanH]

OK, if you say so. Not worth arguing about. NMEA is just a data protocol spec, and if you read the sentences passed to the PPC, you can read the Lat/Long right in there. One salient one would be
$GPGGA,POS_UTC,LAT,LAT_REF,LONG,LONG_REF,FIX_MODE,SAT_USED,HDOP,ALT,ALT_UNIT,GEO,G_UNIT,D_AGE,D_REF*CC<cr><lf>

Read this review. http://www.mobilegadgetnews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1844&mode=nested&order=0&thold=0

What is GPS? The Global Positioning System began back in the late 1970s for governmental use and in the past 10 years has been made available for the general public. GPS receivers collect signals from as many of the 29 satellites (orbiting the earth 11,000 nautical miles up) as possible and using triangulation from these satellites can give a latitude, longitude, and altitude position. The GPS receiver calculates it's position by measuring distances from these satellites. Distance measurements to at least 4 satellites is required to compute a 3-D position. This position is usually accurate to within 50 feet but can be even tighter than that.

A GPS needs a view of 3 satellites for a 2D position and 4 for a 3D position.

Sean