Microsoft Revs Its Automotive Engines [Archive]

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Jason Dunn

12-09-2003, 02:57 AM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.com.com/2100-1008_3-5111932.html' target='_blank'>http://news.com.com/2100-1008_3-5111932.html</a><br /><br /></div>"The software maker has persuaded a number of carmakers to use its slimmed-down Windows CE operating system to power a variety of in-car electronics, from navigation systems to music players to information devices. BMW, in particular, has gravitated to Microsoft systems, although the company has announced wins with Honda, Volvo and others as well. <br /><br />Microsoft has kept its car talk to a dull roar in recent months, but is expected to talk more about its effort in January, when Chairman Bill Gates delivers a keynote speech at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. In a speech to a group of university researchers in July, though, Gates offered a bold forecast..."<br /><br />Windows CE in your car - something you'd want, or not? For me, it would depend on what sorts of systems the OS was controlling, and how critical they were. We also need to consider that it's likely to be a sealed system, without the possibility of third party software causing instability.

lurch

12-09-2003, 03:13 AM

I think this sounds great!!! It obviously (at least obviously from the quote you had, plus common sense) wouldn't be used for safety critical software, but as far as controlling the "extras" I think it would do a great job. Plus, adding components would get a lot easier, and then it would be cool if they would allow a "port" of some kind (i.e. USB-type port) so you could interface and even load your own apps (if you desired to take that risk). My friend was looking into mod-ing his old pocket pc into a mounted unit instead of a car stereo, I still think the idea has great merit! You'd just have to get the UI right.

And then if they use CE maybe the price would be low enough they could offer it in cars I could afford!!! :)

EricMCarson

12-09-2003, 03:30 AM

I have been waiting for someone to release a way to easily play my WMA files in my car (Audi A6). Audi has a solution from phatNoise, but it is prohibitively expensive (over $800) and doesn't play WMP9 files. But the voice interface is decent. If MS can put together a decent interface for my WMP9 collection (all 61GB of it), I'd be a happy customer (particularly under $800).

What I wouldn't like to see is an MS PC in my car that stops playing my music because the memory leaks are causing my GPS to crash and my air conditioner to stop functioning. I think an isolated in-dash component would be a better place to start that an integrated unit that controls several key functions of the car. But, that really isn't MS' style, is it?

corphack

12-09-2003, 03:38 AM

Lets see:

[1] 120mph on the autobahn and my new BMW hard-resets. Do I survive?

[2] Microsoft issues a ROM upgrade, but Toyota decides I have to by a new Supra because they're not going to issue an upgraded OS for my Supra's model & year...

[3] Microsoft issues a patch to my Audi's OS which improves the engine efficiency, but which has the annoying tendency to lock the breaks and shut off the headlights occassionally and especially when I'm moving faster than 40mph...

[4] Will a splinter subdivision of BMW help me remove WinCE and reflash my car with Opie Linux?

There are WinCE "features" that I am willing to tolerate (barely) in my PDA or cellphone that just won't make it in my car.

Unless the WinCE controlled systems are totally electrically isolated from the "critical" systems (even in current cars, electrical problems with the radio have been known to affect the ignition and break systems), I think I'd rather ride a horse.

JustinGTP

12-09-2003, 03:45 AM

jfields

12-09-2003, 03:45 AM

This reminded me of a posting I saw a couple of years ago...

Microsoft Car

At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the

computer industry with the auto industry and stated, "If GM had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon."

In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating, "If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:

1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.

2. Every time they painted new lines on the road, you would have to buy a new car.

3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull ove r to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue.

For some reason you would simply accept this.

4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.

5. Only one person at a time could use the car unless you bought "CarNT," but then you would have to buy more seats.

6. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive -- but it would only run on five percent of the roads.

7. The oil, water temperature and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "general protect ion fault" warning light.

8. The airbag system would ask, "Are you sure?" before deploying.

9. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the antenna.

10. GM would require all car buyers to also purchase a deluxe set of Rand McNally Road maps (now a GM subsidiary), even though they neither need nor want them. Attempting to delete this option would immediately cause the car's performance to diminish by 50 percent or more. Moreover, GM would become a target for investigation by the Justice Department.

11. Every time GM introduced a new car, car buyers would have to learn to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.

12. You'd have to press the "start" button to turn the engine off.

arnage2

12-09-2003, 03:48 AM

bsd in my car!!!
Hey, bmw, screw idrive!

corphack

12-09-2003, 04:01 AM

bsd in my car!!!
Hey, bmw, screw idrive!

If *nix runs cars as well as it runs Intel CPUs, your car will get a few hundred miles to the gallon, and you'll only shut it off once or twice a year, but not because you have to, but because you feel like it.

sponge

12-09-2003, 04:35 AM

Funny, but it wasn't said that way:

http://www.snopes.com/humor/jokes/autos.htm

MooseMaster

12-09-2003, 04:36 AM

What happens when my car gets a virus?

corphack

12-09-2003, 04:55 AM

Funny, but it wasn't said that way:

http://www.snopes.com/humor/jokes/autos.htm

By 1998, someone had taken the evolving joke and tacked on a list of humorous comparisons between Microsoft software and the auto industry, once which played on consumer perceptions of Microsoft as a greedy, rapacious producer of flawed software incompatible with other vendors' products:

Snopes.com states this as if it were untrue.

Gregg

12-09-2003, 05:04 AM

I my opinion we all tend to use Microsoft because it is an OS that is widely adopted....... I come from the PSION world and I loved my PSION..... but I then came to the Microsoft Realm..... In this realm I learned very well what soft reseting a PDA was all about...... In the PSION world that was a foreign concept, hence I never had to softreset my PSION.......

To me Microsoft has a large percentage of the market, but it isn't in my opinion because of quality..... Now they are looking at integrating this into cars...... How stupid can the automobile execs be..... I hope and I will pray before I lay my head on my pillow tonite that Microsoft is not allowed to get its claws into the automobile market......

I can just cringe at the thought of having a Microsoft OS governing any function in my car.... I love my Navigation System in my Acura... but Honda needs to take note..... They would probably loose customers like me who purchased two Acuras both with Navigation Systems.... I just dont want to have to get into the habit of having to soft reset or cntrl-alt-del my Navigation System (it should be hilarious on how that would be done). For instance you will get a message on your display stating....."Automobile Maintenance Is Needed In Order to Reset Your Navigation because of an unexpected fault....."

I am surprised that BMW is even considering that..... Looked at an X5 and was waiting for the M5 to come out next year.... and was awaiting a DVD version for their Navigation System so that I wouldn't need multiple CDs..... But I should be privileged now..... driving a BMW with Navigation System should be as unstable as trying to soft reset it while keepin my eyes on the road... Just imagine what they are thinking in Sweden (they wouldn't be able to have Navigation Systems because they would never be able to keep their eyes on the road.. unless Microsoft uses voice commands like in the Acuras...... Just imagine a voice command of "Soft Reset")

Follow this scenario ... you are driving to grandmas house to show her your new car when the Navigation System hangs....... You are able to get to Task Manager where you then give it the voice command to "Soft Reset". You say "Soft Reset" and realized that you just issued a Microsoft "Soft Reset Command" and your whole car just underwent a "Hard Reset".......I can only imagine what just went through your mind as you just lost all "Computer Control" to your car...... Just imagine the upgrade process....... Could there be some OEM (Toshiba) who says ... there will not be an upgrade path...........

This horror flick will be reinacted throughout the entire car arena..... Stupidity always amused me.. but this is just outright ridiculous...

Just my opinion........
Gregg :cry:

sponge

12-09-2003, 05:21 AM

Isn't that what I said? Well, I should've at least :P

cmlpreston

12-09-2003, 08:48 AM

I'm actually surprised with BMWs interest and support of Microsoft's OS for cars as BMW has its somewhat clunky and maybe successful iDrive. They have it down pat with hardly any bugs in their system of computer controlled cars, why add Microsoft and mess it all up?

Hmm, I think maybe I can suggest a reason. It turns out iDrive isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Take this (http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/general/2003/11/21/FFX1AWF29ND.html) article for example.

After the iDrive system was universally criticised in BMW's flagship two years ago (it prompted such headlines as "I drive, no, you drive while I figure out the controls"), the German maker made assurances that it would be greatly improved in future models.

After a week in the latest model, the $105,000 5 Series mid-size sedan, we beg to differ.

And, this little snippet...

After trying in vain to set a radio station on the complex iDrive system -- while the car was parked -- Mr Gibson said: "I couldn't imagine doing this while driving. I think it's a terrible distraction. If [car makers] are going to produce this sort of technology with this sort of [operating system] it should be easier."

Personally, I'm not sure a general use OS like WinCE is the way to go either. The use of generic OS in specialized situations such as ATMs and cars leaves me a little cold.

cmlp

Bruno

12-09-2003, 01:02 PM

David C

12-09-2003, 01:27 PM

Windows CE in cars. Sure, why not. It'll just be another thing that Bill Gates him self does not use but Microsoft tries to sell.

Bruno

12-09-2003, 02:00 PM

Windows CE in cars. Sure, why not. It'll just be another thing that Bill Gates him self does not use but Microsoft tries to sell.

So you know by fact that Bill Gates doesn´t own a new BMW 7 or 5 Series car?

What sources do you have on this?

I wouldn´t dream of accusing you of talking about things that you don´t know anything about. So I look forward to some sort of inventory of Bill Gates cars . . . 8)

adamz

12-09-2003, 02:10 PM

maybe check out the videos here:

http://www.microsoft.com/automotive/windowsautomotive/

Jonathan1

12-09-2003, 03:15 PM

NO. Simply NO. There is no version of CE that doesn't need some type of soft, and occasionally a hard, rest. I don't give a crap what type of functionality you give me I do NOT want to deal with resetting ANYTHING in my car. PERIOD. End of story.
And frankly there are times proprietary OS's are a good thing. Proprietary typically means the average hacker is going to have a heck of a harder time hacking\cracking into something then a typical OS. Think in terms of biodiversity. A virus infects different people in different ways because not everyone is exactly identical. Now look at how pervasive Microsoft's OSs are getting. I don't want to deal some day with a code base that is identical across the board and some enterprising idiot virus/worm writer finds an exploit.

A somewhat legit example of this ripped from today's headlines:
Worm hits Windows-based ATMs (http://news.com.com/2100-7349_3-5117285.html?tag=nefd_top)

We haven't gotten that far yet with Windows CE being closely related to Windows NT based OS's but its coming along with such things as .NET

Again NO on so many levels.

CTSLICK

12-09-2003, 03:57 PM

NO. Simply NO.

Exactly. Switches, levers, pedals and rotary dials work...where is the NEED to do this. Unless we are talking about GPS (a good idea but a non essential system) I say leave my card alone...its just fine without this stuff.

jmulder

12-09-2003, 04:40 PM

12. You'd have to press the "start" button to turn the engine off.

Ironically, the new Toyota Prius does have a 'Start' button, but I'm not sure if you press it to shut off the car. :wink:

fyiguy

12-09-2003, 04:58 PM

To me Microsoft has a large percentage of the market, but it isn't in my opinion because of quality..... Now they are looking at integrating this into cars...... How stupid can the automobile execs be..... I hope and I will pray before I lay my head on my pillow tonite that Microsoft is not allowed to get its claws into the automobile market......

I can just cringe at the thought of having a Microsoft OS governing any function in my car.... I love my Navigation System in my Acura... but Honda needs to take note..... They would probably loose customers like me who purchased two Acuras both with Navigation Systems.... I just dont want to have to get into the habit of having to soft reset or cntrl-alt-del my Navigation System (it should be hilarious on how that would be done). For instance you will get a message on your display stating....."Automobile Maintenance Is Needed In Order to Reset Your Navigation because of an unexpected fault....."

If you have a 2003 Acura you are already running on the MS OS.

I test drove the new TL with BT a while ago and the dealer told me that they will be having a new service called the InterNavi Premium Club, that offers updated weather, traffic reports, news, maintenance and other information as well as the ability to send e-mail, which is done via a Bluetooth "HandsFreeLink" to your cell phone and you pay for the data charges on your cell phone(since T-mobile is now offering free wap browsing this could end up being free for Tmobile customers as long as it doesn't require a secure site logon).

The dealer said it will be available as an option (he didn't know what the price was)and the software updates of the DVD mapping software will be free for three years and includes the cell-phone updates as well.

Most of the systems for Honda and Acura are made by Alpine, I am not too sure if the current models are or only certain parts are OEMed out.

Currently I have a Linux based Rio Radio (http://www.riocar.org/) (my first ARM processor device!) in our MDX and Mazda, that is capable of playing WMAs and MP3s, I picked them up at closeout for $199 each with 30GB HD. My wife and I just switch radios when we switch vehicles (if needed) and have each have our own CD and vinyl collections to go. They even work with a WiFi Gateway if you need to update it while in the garage via the software on a pc, I just tried to see if it could be done, but usually bring it in the house with me if I need to update it or wish to listen to some tunes on the "nice" sound system.

Rumor has it that Alpine and Clarion are working on a WiFi based radio with hard drive to store digital music files, with Satellite radio, nav, BT connection for traffic updates,weather,etc. It too will be running on the Win CE OS, again this is just a rumor floating around the net...

dMores

12-09-2003, 05:10 PM

hehe, immagine starting your car and reading
"no keyboard found, press F1 to continue"

:)

don't you think that when you turn your car off, that the entire windows operating system is shut down too?

windows ce is a scaled down version of windows 2000, which is known to be running on a lot of servers that simply cannot afford to shut down and restart.
i can immagine windows ce doing a great job in cars. if it is somewhat severed from the car's internal management. so it would be more of a pocket pc installed into a car. i'd take it.
and when it crashes, oh then my precious "average fuel consumption" and "odometer" will be set to 0.

by the way, my pda never needs a reset unless i tinker with it and play with multiple apps simultaneously. basic PIM work never stalls, so why should my car apps crash if they're optimized?

Bruno

12-09-2003, 05:17 PM

Steven Cedrone

12-09-2003, 05:23 PM

Please, step away from the keyboards and relax...

Let's not turn this into a brawl, O.K.???

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

WyattEarp

12-09-2003, 09:30 PM

Although a computer controlled system is nice there are times when enough is enough. Microsoft is dipping there hands into everything. Their track record with the Windows OS is anything but stellar so any car system with an OS by them in it is questionable.

Cars that have an electonically controlled system do tend to give problems once in a while whether we hear about it or not. No company will tell you out right there are problems with their systems. If your not one of those then thats great because it is a small amount that does give trouble. So the question is can Microsoft deliver an OS to help run a car better than the current offerings, not give buyers another thing to worry about while driving or an added bill for repairs. I personally don't think so but by the way things look we shall soon see.

EricMCarson

12-09-2003, 10:51 PM

windows ce is a scaled down version of windows 2000

What a piece of crap!!! Windows CE is NOT a scaled down version of windows 2000! Windows CE is a whole different small operating system that runs a subset of the Win32 API on top of it. BIG difference! Get your facts straight before you open your mouth next time. :wink:

Chill out, man. You've spent your entire posts in this thread yelling at other people about how dumb they are and the fact that they can't find out which car Bill Gates drives. People are just pointing out the instabilities inherent in the Windows OS, CE or otherwise. It's not a personal attack on you that some of us are a little stupid and don't know everything about everything before we post. We're having a discussion, not a debate.

klinux

12-09-2003, 11:38 PM

12. You'd have to press the "start" button to turn the engine off.

Ironically, the new Toyota Prius does have a 'Start' button, but I'm not sure if you press it to shut off the car. :wink:

Yes. I don't know why people just use the universal symbol for power i.e. Apple's power on/off button or Gateway's symbol (rotated 90 deg, no not the cow).

klinux

12-09-2003, 11:41 PM

Chill out, man. You've spent your entire posts in this thread yelling at other people about how dumb they are and the fact that they can't find out which car Bill Gates drives. People are just pointing out the instabilities inherent in the Windows OS, CE or otherwise. It's not a personal attack on you that some of us are a little stupid and don't know everything about everything before we post. We're having a discussion, not a debate.

Well, I can see why he may be upset that people are making generalized (what if my car BSOD) or making uninformed (WinCE is based on W2K) statements that does not advance the discussion.

maximus

12-10-2003, 02:19 AM

What happens when my car gets a virus?

Well, to avoid that, you have to connect your car to microsoft's server on monthly basis, to download all those patches and antivirus files. :mrgreen:

motbe

12-10-2003, 07:25 PM

Well. . FYI, Microsoft's had their hands in the Car Audio business for a long time with Windows CE. Remember the "AutoPC"? It was a version of Windows CE that ran on car radios. Several radios were released 3 or 4 years ago, and a slight buzz was created about it (they had voice rec, could integrate with your cell phone, do GPS, read your email to you, tell you the traffic, and much more).

The radios were running between $1000 and $2000, and there wasn't alot of appeal for them at the time (given you could get a much more quality radio for way cheaper, of course minus the ability to write your own software for it and the voice rec and etc). The "AutoPC" market slowly died out without so much as a whisper. I suppose Microsoft just had to bide their time until the right moment came along to jump back in to the market.

minimage

12-12-2003, 03:52 PM

Hmm...yeah, and it will be great when Microsoft does the "end-of-life" thing and refuses to support your 8 yr-old car.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!
FreeBSD sounds good. Keep Microsoft on the desks and in the hands. Fixing what M$ screws up pays my bills, but I don't want to have to reload the OS on my car, and I don't want to have to take my car in to the manufacturer every week for security updates.
What next? Mechanics will have to be MCSE Certified?
I say NO NO NO NO. PLEEEEEEEASE NO!
Windows XP had a bad security flaw. There was a patch before the OS was even released. How can we trust Windows at 70mph? Somebody think about the CHILDREN!
You were late for work, because your car didn't shut down properly, and your system was running chkdsk.
Officer, I wasn't trying to speed. My car performed an illegal operation.
NO THANK YOU!