My ipaq saved my life!!!!

[Flavinha]

One of my friends and I have just bought an ipaq 1945 each and we wanted to know if our bluetooth connection really worked....we´ve been testing it for a couple of days in class...

We sat by each other, turned our ppcs on and started sending files, getting files and things like that.

But last Tuesday we had the most fun! We were having our Calculus final exam and the teacher didn´t let us sit near each other bc he knew that somehow we were gonna cheat together....

So my friend sat in the first desk in ths classroom and I sat in the last one in the same row....what we did was turn on our bluetooth and exchange answers......it was so funny bc in the benning, our papers were as white as milk and a second later we were writting a bunch of thing bc one was always coping from the other using the ipaq.....


The great thing is we both passed with good grades and even though the teacher didn´t let as sit near each other our ppcs saved us!!!!! And we proved that bluetooth really works!!!!! :D


Flavinha*

[proutpa]

The sooner that you learn that cheaters never win the better your life will be!

[PR.]

The sooner that you learn that cheaters never win the better your life will be!

Thats always said by people who don't cheat. :)

[piperpilot]

You may have gotten a good grade, but you didn't really learn anything, so in the end, you only cheated yourself.

[David Prahl]

You may have gotten a good grade, but you didn't really learn anything, so in the end, you only cheated yourself.

I agree! Cheating is cheating, even if it's geeky cheating. :idontthinkso: I'm suprised your teacher let you keep your PPCs on your desks - we have to remove everything except writing instruments and the test.

[Jason Dunn]

Tremendously un-cool use of a Pocket PC. :|

The sooner you figure out that cheating is lame, the better off you'll be. Hard work will allow you to accomplish goals in your life, not cheating.

[WyattEarp]

Agreed. Extreme misuse of technology. :idontthinkso: No kudos for you and your partner. By doing things like that you just make it harder for others to bring technology in to the classroom.
Stay away from the Dark Side

[Guido]

I won't lecture you on whether cheating is right or wrong, I just find it funny that you have a very powerful computer on your desk where you can put all kinds of notes and super-calculators to help you, yet you still have to ask your friend for the answer.

Does anyone know if the software exists for a someone (a teacher) to intercept PPC signals? That would be interesting.

[David Prahl]

Does anyone know if the software exists for a someone (a teacher) to intercept PPC signals?

We've deployed something at our school. It's even voice activated! All the teacher has to do is say "Clear your desks!" and magically no more signals are sent or recieved!

:D

[Jon Westfall]

You may have gotten a good grade, but you didn't really learn anything, so in the end, you only cheated yourself.

I never took Calculus in college, and I don't feel I cheated myself because I never learned anything about it. So what's the difference between cheating and not learning and just not taking the class, other than the earned credits.

I'm not advocating cheating, but feel that the blame here lies more on the instructor than the students. Really... what instructor doesn't notice two students using ipaqs in class to send answers back and forth? And before someone tells me that being a teacher is hard work, please remember - I AM a teacher - and walking a classroom while an exam is in progress is part of maintaining the integrity of your instruction. I've often heard students taking classes simply to have a lazy teacher who doesn't look. In this case, it isn't the students cheating themselves as much as it is the teachers cheating their students.

[Janak Parekh]

I never took Calculus in college, and I don't feel I cheated myself because I never learned anything about it. So what's the difference between cheating and not learning and just not taking the class, other than the earned credits.
Well, cheating oneself is strictly a moral thing. More seriously, you're cheating the other students by using a technological advantage to push yourself ahead of them, by doing things that are against the rules to promote fairness amongst the students.

I'm not advocating cheating, but feel that the blame here lies more on the instructor than the students. Really... what instructor doesn't notice two students using ipaqs in class to send answers back and forth?
You're assuming the instructor knows what an iPAQ is. The poster here clearly took advantage of the fact the instructor didn't know what an iPAQ was, especially a Bluetooth-enabled one. Also, you don't know the size of the classroom. It's rather hard to monitor a class of size 150 and not catch everything. I walk around frequently while I'm administering exams, and I'd like to think I've prevented cheating, but students still tell me that I missed obvious attempts. :|

In any case, this is why I forbid all electronic devices on my exams, period. I don't give them problems they can't do by hand...

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

I never took Calculus in college, and I don't feel I cheated myself because I never learned anything about it. So what's the difference between cheating and not learning and just not taking the class, other than the earned credits.

The learning comes from the struggle itself, not the topic.

[dh]

One of my friends and I have just bought an ipaq 1945 each and we wanted to know if our bluetooth connection really worked....we´ve been testing it for a couple of days in class...

We sat by each other, turned our ppcs on and started sending files, getting files and things like that.

But last Tuesday we had the most fun! We were having our Calculus final exam and the teacher didn´t let us sit near each other bc he knew that somehow we were gonna cheat together....

So my friend sat in the first desk in ths classroom and I sat in the last one in the same row....what we did was turn on our bluetooth and exchange answers......it was so funny bc in the benning, our papers were as white as milk and a second later we were writting a bunch of thing bc one was always coping from the other using the ipaq.....


The great thing is we both passed with good grades and even though the teacher didn´t let as sit near each other our ppcs saved us!!!!! And we proved that bluetooth really works!!!!! :D


Flavinha*
You might do better to get a dictionary on your Ipaq, looks as though you need it. I hope your friend doesn't copy from you in the English exams or you will both fail.

[D.psi]

When I was going through university one of the professors explicitly stated that we could take in any calculator, so long as it didn't dim the lights ;-) . Of course that was some time ago, before Wi-Fi, BT, etc... came into play.

However most of my exams (I majored in Physics, with a minor in Math) consisted of only 3-4 questions. All of which required derivation from first principles. Just writing the exam out once, usually took the 3hrs, I can't possibly imagine writing it once on the Ipaq, and again on my assignment paper 8O !

Anyhow, things have a habit of coming back when you least expect them. Time will tell how the original poster will recognize the error of his/her ways.

D.psi

[delfuhd]

Well my teachers let me have a pocket pc on my desk during tests or quizzes, but I mainly use it only for a calculator, I think of myself as very lucky that I'm even able to have it on my desk, and I don't feel that I should take advantage of that privilege.
And besides, they are only about 3 other people in my whole school who even have a pocket pc, and in a high school of 3000 kids, thats a 1:1000 ratio that I'll have a class with them. I have had a couple classes with them in earlier years but not this year.

I never cheated with them anyway, though I used to chat with them during boring classes with WiFi and Microsoft portrait. Ah, the good old days...

But nonetheless, there's a thread here (http://pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17490) about cheating, jsut thought I'd mention it because it's at a teacher's point of view while this thread is a student's point of view...

[proutpa]

The sooner that you learn that cheaters never win the better your life will be!

Thats always said by people who don't cheat. :)

That's true, check out this made up situation.

John [former Enron Exec.]:
Hey Tommy, do you want to go for a ride in the new Ferrari and see the Yacht I just bought?
Boy, I tell you son, there is no better feeling in this world than cheating the system and getting the better things in life!

Tommy:
No thanks dad, I still have some homework to do. Besides you shouldn't do that and listen to Mom when she says "What goes around, comes around".

John [former Enron Exec.]:
Bull*hit son, that's said by people who don't have the *alls to cheat! Do you think I'd be where I am now, in this dog eat dog world, if I listened to your mother, followed all the rules and was Mister Goodie Two Shoes?

Tommy:
Well Dad, I think that hard work and honesty builds a strong moral character and this will get you farther along in life in the long run.
Anyhow, oh by the way, the Police came by earlier, they wanted to ask you a few questions...

[PR.]

The sooner that you learn that cheaters never win the better your life will be!

Thats always said by people who don't cheat. :)

That's true, check out this made up situation.

John [former Enron Exec.]:
Hey Tommy, do you want to go for a ride in the new Ferrari and see the Yacht I just bought?
Boy, I tell you son, there is no better feeling in this world than cheating the system and getting the better things in life!

Tommy:
No thanks dad, I still have some homework to do. Besides you shouldn't do that and listen to Mom when she says "What goes around, comes around".

John [former Enron Exec.]:
Bull*hit son, that's said by people who don't have the *alls to cheat! Do you think I'd be where I am now, in this dog eat dog world, if I listened to your mother, followed all the rules and was Mister Goodie Two Shoes?

Tommy:
Well Dad, I think that hard work and honesty builds a strong moral character and this will get you farther along in life in the long run.
Anyhow, oh by the way, the Police came by earlier, they wanted to ask you a few questions...

Or how about this one.

Kid: Copies all the formulas for working out speed/distance as well as metric to imperial conversions into his PocketPC he sits in a science test and does all these dumb questions your never going to encounter in real life.

*6 weeks later*

Kid: Gets excellent grade in Science, the kid is going to go work in IT and so will have no need to work out the speed of John Smiths GoKart, but he can put that good grade down on his CV along with other genuine grades and it gets his foot in the door at an IT Company his knowledge in IT proves himself to this company and the next.

*25 years later*

Some one asks our middle aged IT Admin a question "How can I work out the speed of something?" he pulls out his iPAQ 10000 and loads up his preffered conversion program and tells him.


Lets not be rediculous here and comparison to Enron against cheating in a class at school :)

[proutpa]

Lets not be rediculous here and comparison to Enron against cheating in a class at school :)

Cheating is bad no matter what scale it is on, it's all the same thing.

I won't pursue this anymore, it's very clear where your morals are on this.

[DarrenS]

:(

1st: cheating on a calc test
2nd: lying on job application
3rd: steals supplies from company (copier paper, pens, etc)
4th: cheats on income taxes
5th: ........

What's really sad is that some people see no problem with this "life style".

[Ed Hansberry]

Lets not be rediculous here and comparison to Enron against cheating in a class at school :)
but the person that cheats in class is far more likely to be the one in the Enron situation. Plus, you are blowing the curve for those that did study.

Not cool at all. :?

[PR.]

Lets not be ridiculous here and comparison to Enron against cheating in a class at school :)
but the person that cheats in class is far more likely to be the one in the Enron situation. Plus, you are blowing the curve for those that did study.

Not cool at all. :?

Rubbish!

Were all cheating right now, the US is cheating by putting illegal import tax on international steel to keep its own steel industry afloat.

France and Germany trying to cheat to get their farmers billions of euros of tax breaks that will be denied to everyone else in the EU

In the UK the government make NHS waiting lists look better by cheating and splitting lists up so that there are 3 lists with 100 each rather than 300 on a single list

Medicine factories cheat millions of people out of their lives in 3rd world countries by charging unreasonable prices for drugs that are cheap to make but expensive because of their brand name

Starbucks are cheating coffee bean farmers by purchasing their beans at ridiculous prices.

People here were trying to cheat online stores out of $100s for a PocketPC that was miss priced

Here in the UK drivers cheat by driving through amber lights rather than stopping.

Kids go to study classes where they cheat their exam by cramming info into their minds knowing full well they will forget it 2months after the exam rather than practise over and over until they know it by heart.

Are these all just as bad as each other?! Of course not

Its would be great if the world was in black and white, right and wrong but its not like that, one day maybe but right now its not

[Palmguy]

Uhhh...and all of these examples do nothing to justify cheating. Just shows that it is a prevalent occurance.

And with regards to the students not practicing over and over, that is not cheating. There are classes where people choose to do this, but they can still take the test within the dictated parameters (no outside aids or communication with others etc.). It may not be the wisest decision for their future but it is not cheating in the same sense of the word.

[PR.]

Uhhh...and all of these examples do nothing to justify cheating. Just shows that it is a prevalent occurance.

And with regards to the students not practicing over and over, that is not cheating. There are classes where people choose to do this, but they can still take the test within the dictated parameters (no outside aids or communication with others etc.). It may not be the wisest decision for their future but it is not cheating in the same sense of the word.

I at no point was trying to justify it, just a simple fact that cheaters do prosper, not all of them obviously but a lot of them

I really can't see what the difference is between writing a formula on a piece of paper and staring at it 1min before the exam and then scribbling it down on the exam sheet so you don't forget it, and just sticking it in a program running on a PDA/calculator

[Ed Hansberry]

Lets not be ridiculous here and comparison to Enron against cheating in a class at school :)
but the person that cheats in class is far more likely to be the one in the Enron situation. Plus, you are blowing the curve for those that did study.

Not cool at all. :?

Rubbish!

Were all cheating right now, the US is cheating by putting illegal import tax on international steel to keep its own steel industry afloat.
That isn't cheating. That is politics. All legal. Cheating on a test is exactly black and white. The rules are, you study and you take the test with no assistance unless the rules state otherwise, and if they did, there would be no need to be secretive about it or the teacher wouldn't have separated the two.

[Steven Cedrone]

The analogies set forth in previous posts are not that far fetched...

Personally, I think that you can always justify why you would cheat on an exam...

I really don't care about the material...

Who cares, I could cram but why bother...

What's the difference, I can write it on my hand or program it in a calculator...

Why even bother to memorize it, I'll just scan it and put it in the Pocket PC: after all, I will always be able to use reference documents in the real world...

The list goes on and on...

I feel that in short order, the excuses could quite possibly continue...

The government really doesn't need my money...

That's why people have insurance...

She'll never find out, what's the harm...

Dishonesty is dishonesty, no matter how you try to justify it...

I recently (well about two months ago) took a test in my class at night. At the end, the prof wanted to know why I didn't use a calculator. I explained that I had forgotten my calculator but refused to use my Pocket PC: I didn't want him to have the slightest doubt that my score wasn't something I deserved, regardless of outcome...

I honestly think it boils down to morals: you either have them, or you don't...

Steve

[freakygreek]

I once was offered to cheat in a physics test but I refused and resulted in failing the test and ultimatly the course. I had to retake the course a second time and if I failed it twice I would've been kicked out of my program. The pressure was on I put aside my pride and got a tutor and by studing hard I passed. The point is at the end I felt better.
In the end your only cheating yourself out of and education and your buddy won't always be there to help you.

Cheers

[aroma]

I honestly think it boils down to morals: you either have them, or you don't...

Well put Steve. That about says it all. Cheaters / liars / thieves / criminals always think they can justify their actions.

- Aaron

[SassKwatch]

IMO, the most startling thing about this thread is that it even exists.

The cheating itself is bad enough, but not unexpected. That's been going on in one form or another since testing began.

But to come on a wide open public forum and brag about it as though one should be praised for discovering a novel use of their geek gear.(???) Now that's *really* bizarre. Talk about a fundamental lack of awareness of the 'social graces'.

[Thinkingmandavid]

I personally do not agree with cheating and I agree you cheat yourself out of knowledge. HOwever I wont judge this person, it is a decision they mustmake for themselves.
I do think the original intent of the post was about the essence of the technology, bt, and how it was beneficial. Maybe the idea was to tell in the modern era how the exchange of information is powerful and how far we have come as a society. What an individual chooses to do with that technology is their business.
Every person must make their own life decisions and as time goes by live with their own decisions.
At some point in time it is possible the person on your right cheated and you would never have thought of them that way.

I dont think the poster is a bad person, just someone relaying an experience with technology.
I remember when I was working on my undergrad, the college algebra instructor required the memory on the TI83 to be cleared before being used. I assume she would do the same with a ppc since at the time I was using another kind of pda and mentioned if I used it for the test I would have to clear the memory.

[Wiggin]

I dont think the poster is a bad person, just someone relaying an experience with technology.

Curious... this thread is not about a bad person, this thread is about a good person making VERY bad decisions. There are some excellent lessons to be learned by reading a few of these posts. The original post just reflects poor judgement by someone who does not have the luxury of wisdom and hindsight gained through experiencing the consequences of bad choices. IMHO the problem with this individual started years ago when his/her parents failed to teach the concept of ''Consequences" for our actions ... a problem that will plague a large % of the current generation of kids growing up in today's environment.
:(

[PetiteFlower]

And you don't know that's the case either. Sometimes parents teach and kids don't learn. I think we should be capable of saying what we think about this kid's actions(dumb, poorly thought out, dishonest) without making judgements about his parenting, his quality as a person, or anything like that, because we simply don't know. Good people make bad decisions all the time. If you don't know this person then you can't say whether he is a bad person or just someone who made a stupid choice.

[Busdriver]

Betcha he uses software cracks and downloads music, as well.

[David Prahl]

Betcha he uses software cracks and downloads music, as well.

And listens to that "Rock and Roll" music! :duh:

[Busdriver]

Oh yeah. Thanks. I inadvertently left that part out. Getting old, you know. :wink:

[jkendrick]

From a purely PPC point of view: most likely result from said cheating in class is a ban of all PPCs in class. Ultimately everyone else loses. Every time a new "law" is enacted to prevent a few bad apples from taking advantage of a given situation we end up losing a little bit more of our freedoms.

[dMores]

oh come on.

you're all just a bunch of goody-two-shoes!

i have cheated in high-school, i have cheated in university. and sometimes it was worth it, sometimes it was not.
cheating is harder than you all think. it's also a strategic decision. when the stress goes over your head, you have to optimize your time. and since the university system in particular is known for throwing in hurdles, what's the use studying for a month for a course that is complete nonsense? i studied civil engineering. and there was a class called "informatics" (hehe). what we had to do was learn some old programming languages called cobol and pascal, we even had to learn how to work on practically non-existent systems whose names i forgot.

what the hell does that have to do with civil engineering? the teacher categorically denied us all information on interesting, future-oriented languages like c++ etc.

on the other hand, cheating in math would have been pretty dumb since we needed those basics we learned in the first years of uni for the really tough courses later on.

so please stop sounding like know-betters with your "cheaters will listen to marilyn manson, cheat on their taxes and go postal when they're 35 after downloading illegal mp3s" attitude.

besides, sometimes it takes a lot of time preparing your cheating notes that in the end, you don't even need it. but you have a "plan B" :)


sheesh.

[Flavinha]

One of my friends and I have just bought an ipaq 1945 each and we wanted to know if our bluetooth connection really worked....we´ve been testing it for a couple of days in class...

We sat by each other, turned our ppcs on and started sending files, getting files and things like that.

But last Tuesday we had the most fun! We were having our Calculus final exam and the teacher didn´t let us sit near each other bc he knew that somehow we were gonna cheat together....

So my friend sat in the first desk in ths classroom and I sat in the last one in the same row....what we did was turn on our bluetooth and exchange answers......it was so funny bc in the benning, our papers were as white as milk and a second later we were writting a bunch of thing bc one was always coping from the other using the ipaq.....


The great thing is we both passed with good grades and even though the teacher didn´t let as sit near each other our ppcs saved us!!!!! And we proved that bluetooth really works!!!!!

Flavinha*[]


I might not be a great writer in english but at least I can speak and write more than 3 languages....and just so you know, my native language is portuguese which I dont think you know anything about![/quote][quote

[jeasher]

Just out of curiosity, was a gun pointed to your head during the test? Then I think it would be considered "politics" if you cheated. I would have no problem with your cheating if that were the case.

I cheated once in school, got caught, never cheated again. How embarrasing. Do yourself a favor and study. The fact you participate in this forum tells me you're not a moron, and only incompetent people need to cheat.

[Steven Cedrone]

I might not be a great writer in english but at least I can speak and write more than 3 languages....and just so you know, my native language is portuguese which I dont think you know anything about!

If you can read/write more than 3 languages, why couldn't you study for a Calc final???

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

you're all just a bunch of goody-two-shoes!
You're missing the point.

what we had to do was learn some old programming languages called cobol and pascal, we even had to learn how to work on practically non-existent systems whose names i forgot. what the hell does that have to do with civil engineering? the teacher categorically denied us all information on interesting, future-oriented languages like c++ etc.
Programming, as a skill, is language-neutral. Pascal is actually just as good a language as C++, if not better, as a "first programming language". The fundamental skill of taking a problem and breaking it down into pieces is what one is truly learning if they make the effort to do so. COBOL is indeed a bit archaic, but if you actually studied the material, you'll be glad when you encounter it in the real world (yes, it's still out there). I wish I had learned it!

so please stop sounding like know-betters with your "cheaters will listen to marilyn manson, cheat on their taxes and go postal when they're 35 after downloading illegal mp3s" attitude.
None of us said that.

--janak

[dMores]

Betcha he uses software cracks and downloads music, as well.

And listens to that "Rock and Roll" music! :duh:
oh, i must have misunderstood this bit then ...

i agree with you that programming is not just learning a language but a structural and analytic task as well.
however, you do need to learn the vocabulary. and it is definately like learning a human language.
but if i invest time into learning cobol, i feel i would have learned more if i had invested that time into learning c++ or similar. i will never come across cobol again in my life. that's what i meant by judging, when it makes sense to study hard, and when it is just a barrier the school has put up to make sure only a "few good men" actually make it to the finals.

[Janak Parekh]

oh, i must have misunderstood this bit then ...
Ha! I missed that. ;) Still, we didn't say Marilyn Manson. His music is lame IMHO. But I digress.

but if i invest time into learning cobol, i feel i would have learned more if i had invested that time into learning c++ or similar. i will never come across cobol again in my life.
I think it's too early to say, but I'm not going to debate the point. I fundamentally disagree with you about judging when it makes sense to study hard; I study hard all the time.

--janak

[PR.]

Betcha he uses software cracks and downloads music, as well.

And listens to that "Rock and Roll" music! :duh:
oh, i must have misunderstood this bit then ...

i agree with you that programming is not just learning a language but a structural and analytic task as well.
however, you do need to learn the vocabulary. and it is definately like learning a human language.
but if i invest time into learning cobol, i feel i would have learned more if i had invested that time into learning c++ or similar. i will never come across cobol again in my life. that's what i meant by judging, when it makes sense to study hard, and when it is just a barrier the school has put up to make sure only a "few good men" actually make it to the finals.

We did Cobol and Pascal at our college it was a total waste of time, no one was interested in it and in the end the TEACHER put the answers to the exam in the same folder as the revision notes, there wasn't anyone who failed, and there wasn't anyone who hadn't cheated. Since I've left that exam I've seen neither Pascal or Cobol ever again :roll:

I did learn Visual Basic and I didn't cheat and did very well in it, I'm not a programming person the whole process I find is very draining :)

[Godsongz]

Doesn't anyone else smell a troll? It seems very likely that this thread's entire purpose was to generate a heated debate. Don't give 'em the satisfaction. Cheating is wrong, anyone with morals knows that, and anyone without morals won't care.

[dMores]

ok, let's not take this any further. but i just want to make sure that you see it from a civil engineer's point of view. i know that when you're in computer science, it does make sense. just like it makes sense to learn about ancient architectural design when you#re becoming an architect.
and in university, at least in austrian/german uni, you're over-worked. you simply cannot study hard for everything and still finish your degree in time.
some people cheat, other people try to assess, just how much you need to study to "just pass" this one course that's pretty much of no use to you.

i know, you never know where life will lead you. but you can, at least for the near future, take an intelligent guess, and act accordingly.

and since you never stop learning in your life, even when you have learned something in the past, you most likely will not know what that was and have to freshen things up anyways.
cheating does not mean you don't learn anything. you just omit certain things.

anyhow, never mind. this topic is too much like "what's the best pda", it's a matter of personal preferrences and morals. but just saying that a cheater has no moral conscience is a bit too harsh.

ps: marilyn manson is great. ;)
pps: i'm a "ppc intellectual" ! wow.

[piperpilot]

Cheating is wrong, anyone with morals knows that, and anyone without morals won't care.

That's right. All this moral relativism obscures the fact that cheating is wrong; plain and simple. I was an English major in college but took both Pascal and Cobol because I thought it was important to learn--it was in the early 80s and the computer revolution was just beginning. I had no idea what the professor or the TA was talking about. I tried my darndest to understand it but just couldn't get it. I dropped the course rather than risk failing it. I could have cheated and maybe would have passed the course, but in the end, I would have known that I was a cheater and did not deserve the credit hours.

[David Prahl]

Doesn't anyone else smell a troll? It seems very likely that this thread's entire purpose was to generate a heated debate. Don't give 'em the satisfaction. Cheating is wrong, anyone with morals knows that, and anyone without morals won't care.

I agree. Cheaters will do anything to justify their actions.

It's getting pretty hot in here - anyone else think it's time to lock this?

[rzanology]

lol you guys are outtah control! All the kid wanted was a "yea thats cool"...not a lesson to learn in life. Interesting points though.

[Ed Hansberry]

ok, let's not take this any further.
Ok.
but
Oh, a "but." :roll: So we should stop but you get the last word? :idontthinkso:
i just want to make sure that you see it from a civil engineer's point of view. i know that when you're in computer science, it does make sense. just like it makes sense to learn about ancient architectural design when you#re becoming an architect.
I really hope you aren't a civil engineer where I live. I highly respect the person that just tells me they either don't know or aren't qualified to give the answer, and when that is on a test, they own up to not studying, rather than one that cheats.

Correct me if I am wrong, but "cheating" as a civil engineer can cause injury or even death to third parties later on down the line, correct? :?

[dMores]

well first of all i dropped out :)

i'm running my own multimedia/sound company now.

BUT ;) when i went to the first class in university, the perfesser even admitted that they know people are cheating. and he told us to do it wisely, hehe.

after seeing what we learned, and how we learned it, and what my dad had to do when he was being a civil engineer, university only gives you the basics. something that trains your "feeling" for the subject. when you leave uni, and start at some company, you basically learn the same stuff again, but this time you learn real-life situations, requirements etc.

so yes, don't let a university-student build your home. he'll definately fail, cheater or no cheater.
you wouldn't let a guy with a freshly printed drivers-license race around indianapolis, now would you ;)

but ...

ok, i've finished.

[Guido]

To all people who think cheating is wrong - imagine this scenario:

You own a company about to bid on a multi-million dollar contract. You know if you're cheaper, even by $1, you will win the contract. As you're about to submit your bid, you see your only competitor's bid on the desk in a folder. The coast is clear - do you take a peek and modify your bid accordingly? Or do you proudly anounce to your employees that you lost the bid for $100 because you're too "pure" to cheat?

Every single day in the REAL world you're surrounded by people who cheat to get an edge. From the hotdog vendor (is this Ketchup watered down?) to the government (don't get me started). You think Bill Gates is the most honest guy out there?

It's not a black and white world - you must weigh the pros and cons and decided for yourself if cheating is worth it. Is the outcome greater than the risk? Will bending the truth give you an edge? If so, do it - your employers expect that from you. Obviously there are limits to what you should do, but if you don't do anything then you'll get walked over. No "honor roll" and "dean's list" will save you.

In the business world, good guys finish last.

[Ed Hansberry]

To all people who think cheating is wrong - imagine this scenario:

You own a company about to bid on a multi-million dollar contract. You know if you're cheaper, even by $1, you will win the contract. As you're about to submit your bid, you see your only competitor's bid on the desk in a folder. The coast is clear - do you take a peek and modify your bid accordingly? Or do you proudly anounce to your employees that you lost the bid for $100 because you're too "pure" to cheat?
Is that same owner ok with his employees cheating by changing their time cards by one minute so it rolls from 4:51 to 4:52, therby changing the quarterly increment to 5:00pm and getting an extra quarter hour pay?

[dh]

I've had zillions of meetings in customers offices but I've never dream't of opening a file to get information.

However, anything left on top of the desk is fair game. After a while you get to be really good at reading upside down, especially when the customer gets out the competitor's quote to look something up. :D

[Ed Hansberry]

I've had zillions of meetings in customers offices but I've never dream't of opening a file to get information.

However, anything left on top of the desk is fair game. After a while you get to be really good at reading upside down, especially when the customer gets out the competitor's quote to look something up. :D
On this whole issue - check out http://www.cfo.com/article/1,5309,11379,00.html?f=features and http://www.cfo.com/Article?article=11321

"Fraud" is another word for "cheating." The CEO of Boeing had to resign because an underling (the CFO) looked at a competitors bid. The CFO and Gov't employee involved are facing possible criminal indictments.

Yeah, I'll sleep at night knowing I didn't cheat on a bid.

[Wiggin]

To all people who think cheating is wrong - imagine this scenario:

You own a company about to bid on a multi-million dollar contract. You know if you're cheaper, even by $1, you will win the contract. As you're about to submit your bid, you see your only competitor's bid on the desk in a folder. The coast is clear - do you take a peek and modify your bid accordingly? Or do you proudly anounce to your employees that you lost the bid for $100 because you're too "pure" to cheat?

:D :lol: :D
That's a funny scenario... very imaginative indeed.
Have you bid on many "multi-million dollar" contracts Guido? In the "REAL" business world, where you say that good guys finish last, my experience has shown me that multi-million dollar contracts are not decided on $1 gaps or $100 gaps. MM$ contracts require hard work, clear business value, strong relationships, a prod or service that can be trusted, and a long list of other factors.
In the real world, good guys certainly do not always finish last, and good guys sometimes do not finish first. But good guys always stand proud.
I like to say that life is not about the destination, it's about the journey. I choose the good-guy path, and will enjoy the scenery and sleep well each night. :wink:

[Don Tolson]

In the "REAL" business world, where you say that good guys finish last, my experience has shown me that multi-million dollar contracts are not decided on $1 gaps or $100 gaps. MM$ contracts require hard work, clear business value, strong relationships, a prod or service that can be trusted, and a long list of other factors.
In the real world, good guys certainly do not always finish last, and good guys sometimes do not finish first.

I second that... I HAVE bid on multi-million $$ projects -- many, in fact -- and they are NEVER decided on $1, $100, or $1000 differences. In all cases, we won or lost on the buyer's belief in the integrity of the proposed supplier -- Whether they thought they could do business with us, and whether they believed we could get the job done, properly, the first time. In some cases, we've lost because our price was just too high to justify, but every time, the buyer has come back after spending much more on a failure, to ask us to come back and help put it back together.

[David Prahl]

To all people who think cheating is wrong

Whoa! Are you saying that cheating is right?

I'm against any cheating, but we could go on arguing about that for pages.
Here's what the Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines "cheat" as:
1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice

"to get something by dishonesty or deception"

"depriving one of his or her rights and usually connotes deliberate perversion of the truth"

"misrepresentation or abuse of confidence"

You can try to justify cheating, but there is no way you can say that it isn't wrong.

[Guido]

That's a funny scenario... very imaginative indeed.
Have you bid on many "multi-million dollar" contracts Guido?
I have been involved in the process on quite a few of them. I used the "$1" example just to simplify things - not to be taken literally. There are hundreds of examples where people cheat yet they don't consider it cheating because it doesn't fit their very flexible definition of the term.
How many people here drive steady in the left lane? That can be considered cheating the other drivers just so you can get home first. How about buying the bread from the back of the shelf with the longest expiry date? What makes you (not you wiggin in particular) so special that the next guy has to take the older bread? These could be considered cheating - bettering yourself at the expense of others. If someone here still says they never cheat - then I give up... you are a better man or woman than most people. Actually - you may be perfect. :roll:

I on the other hand will use whatever tactics (within reason of course) to better my working career in the very competitive workforce. May the smarter person win. But you better bring more than your book smarts.

[Guido]

You can try to justify cheating, but there is no way you can say that it isn't wrong.
I never meant to say cheating was right. Sorry if my posts seem to say that. Cheating IS wrong... on paper. But in the real, imperfect world it is sometimes necessary. It is simply the way the world works, right or wrong, and you should be prepared to tackle it if you're to get what you want.

[WeezerFanJeffrey]

Guido, that is definitely an imaginitive scenario, but is no excuse to cheat. You are correct, a large majority of people cheat, but that does not give you an excuse to do so. That mentality may be the reason corporate America is so corrupt.

Employees do not expect their large coporate executives to be honest anymore. It is definitely desireable to have an honest executive, however is completely impossible. Money and power corrupts completely.

And I agree, people today do cheat. It is sad that an honest person has to compete with the bad ethics of a cheater. A person with a good business that has hired good people will win over the cheater anyday.

Everyone at this board has cheated, no matter how significant. Cheating is bad, and your example maginifies that fact. What if your client had walked into the room and found you changing the papers? I am sure he would have hired your company after seeing that.

[Guido]

Yeah, I'll sleep at night knowing I didn't cheat on a bid.
The true but sad part is not winning that bid could cost you your job.
I doubt your superior would care that you "acted respectfully" in the process, they'll still throw you out on your ear. After that happens a few times and you're unemployed and late on payments will you still sleep good at night? I bet you wouldn't think twice to "tell a fib" at your next job interview to give you an edge.
Sure, you don't have to cheat every single day, but there are times when it's necessary. It's expected that your competitor will do it to you, so if you willfully put yourself at a disadvantage by not reciprocating, then you'd be cheating your employer who is paying you to take advantage of the situation so you can wint he bid.

I wonder how many people here said to their employer during their job interview that they wouldn't take advantage of a competitor's errors by looking at their bid folder. I wonder how many would have still been hired.

[Guido]

WeezerFanJeffrey let me put it this way:
You see the folder on the desk but decide not to look at it because it's wrong. You end up losing the contract for reason "x". Your boss finds out they could easily have complied with reason "x", only if they had known about it before hand.
Do you tell your boss you saw the folder containing reason "x" but decided not to look at it? I don't think any boss would like to hear that, which means they are paying you to do a job (whether right or wrong) and you're not doing it to their satisfaction. Sorry, but if you show up for work the next day then you're cheating your boss - the hand that feeds you. I would rather cheat my competitor's boss, make my boss happy, and get a promotion. It's a do or die world, you have to find the path of least resistance. If you're not willing to "play", then don't get involved. But sadly, if you have a job (whether self-employed or not), then you're involved.
I'm not saying it's right to cheat - all I'm saying is that it's a necessity.

[Steven Cedrone]

I think the time has come to end this "debate". Obviously, there are some that believe in "kill or be killed", others do not...

Let's get back to arguing over Pocket PC's...

Thread locked...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Ed Hansberry]

Cheating IS wrong... on paper. But in the real, imperfect world it is sometimes necessary.
I categorically reject that assertion.

[Ed Hansberry]

Yeah, I'll sleep at night knowing I didn't cheat on a bid.
The true but sad part is not winning that bid could cost you your job.
I doubt your superior would care that you "acted respectfully" in the process, they'll still throw you out on your ear.
My superior (the CEO) did tell me to "cheat" on a budget process (inflating numbers beyond what was reasonable). I told him no and then told him I'd resign first. He backed down.

Any boss of mine that wants me to cheat and would toss me out for not doing so wouldn't have to toss me out. I'd be gone already.