An Open Letter To Developers From A Pocket PC User [Archive]

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Ed Hansberry

11-26-2003, 02:00 AM

What follows is a letter to the support team for Pocket Informant, which basically thanks them for providing CAB files for easy downloading and installation and a request that all other developers follow suit. I agree completely. There are a number of reasons to have CAB files so you can install files without having to have a desktop around. Just a few reasons include: • Downloading new apps or reinstalling newer versions over WiFi, GPRS or even a 56K modem when traveling. • Mac users don't have to put up with installing Virtual PC just to use the ActiveSync installer. • Many users like keeping CAB files of important programs on storage cards so that in the event of a hard reset, they can quickly get back up and running - though I'd argue a good backup is better as none of your all important data is missing, but I digress. In addition to the request made in this letter, I'd like to see MS improve CAB handling on Windows Mobile devices in two ways. 1) Ask the user where to install the application. Currently, it assumes RAM. There are third party apps that will allow you to override this, but that would be like having to have a third party app on your desktop to redirect installs to other partitions. 2) Ask the user if they want to keep the CAB file after installing. It currently deletes it, which may be OK most of the time, but more than once I've wished the CAB was there after the install - usually after I've downloaded one over the air and want to transfer the CAB to my desktop when I get back home. So read the letter and vote in the poll. <!> I'm a physician, so a lot are medical. Some of the biggies, medical wise are: Sanford Guide Pepid Skyscape's products ePocrates The problem with the latter three is that they update occasionally and the hardware to do that is only on the PC. Thus, in their current iterations, I see no way around the Virtual PC/have a PC solutions. That's frustrating because AvantGo, for example, will sync up over my Wi-Fi connection directly from the handheld. To me, this is the direction the updating software should be going. Wi-Fi is becoming so much more common that if I could just get the software to look for updates directly from the PPC, it'd be much better. Make sense? Plus, with PDA/phone combos, this doesn't even have to be limited to Wi-Fi. Other software I've had a problem with are games, ranging from Hexacto's stuff to PDAmill's. Tonight I downloaded the Atomic Cannon Pocket demo from Handango and tried to install via .exe through PocketMac. It said it found .cab's and tried to install, but the iPaq couldn't recognize the files it got. I could probably get the developer to send me a CAB if I bought it, but sometimes you want to try the demo first and it just ends up being not worth the hassle. HandyMenu sent me a cab, but it's just a pain, you know. Laridian's PocketBible is a mainstay for me (even from back in the Palm days) and it too required a Virtual PC session. And maybe it's just me but Virtual PC is so slow and such a processor hog that I have to really plan a dedicated time, restart the Mac, then launch VPC only and do my stuff, then get out of it. Even then, it's slow. With my Palm, I could just download a demo, install it and go. Speedy. Even if I can get developers to send me .cab's it's inconvenient. You handle this perfectly. In fact, I downloaded PI 4.6 as a cab directly to my PPC without ever messing with the Mac or VPC. Awesome. If developers would take the cue, it seems to me that direct installation would take off. With whatever influence you do have, I wish you'd lobby for more cabs to be available without special request, either on the site, but perhaps even better through Handango/PocketGear type sites. I mean the mobile Handango site is a joke. I don't think that PI's even there. Too few programs to make it worthwhile. To me, that's the key. Look, I knew when I bought this PPC that it might be inconvenient, so I'm not meaning to whine. It's just a hassle to try out new stuff, so I end up not doing it, and I end up missing my Palm more than I thought I would. Of course, there are just tons more medical things available for the Palm, too, so that's part of my disappointment. I'm not kidding or kissing {up} when I say that PI is really right now just about the only thing exciting me about the PPC. Everyone knows I'm a <a href="http://www.ehansberry.com/pages/laridian.html">huge Laridian fan</a> and I'd have to agree with the sentiments above. I'd be less so if I were on the Mac and had to jump through those hoops. Even being a Windows user, more than once I've wanted to buy a Laridian book or download a new/updated program and had to wait until I got home. Come on devs, let us have those CAB files! As a slight aside, :bad-words: if you develop small utility that is basically a single .EXE file, just give us the .EXE, or give us the .EXE as an alternative. I've gone round and round today trying to get one utility on my Pocket PC that is a 15-30K .exe file when expanded that is all wrapped up in some complex button pressing form that interfers with WinZip's download association for .ZIP files for some reason just to get the ActiveSync installer and when you get down to it, the AS installer and the CAB is going to put stuff in the registry, shortcuts where I don't want them, blah blah blah. Full sized apps need installers. Most utilities don't. Stop making this so complex! Needless to say, I'm not going to even bother installing the thing. Ok, rant over. :?

mhskateboarder

11-26-2003, 02:06 AM

If i could, I would install all of my apps with cab files. If that were possible, my vote would've been different. Nice Letter

SassKwatch

11-26-2003, 02:13 AM

If i could, I would install all of my apps with cab files. If that were possible, my vote would've been different. Nice Letter
Ditto.

altden2002

11-26-2003, 02:48 AM

To make sure your CAB is not deleted after you installed it you need to mark it as readonly. Works for me.

Ed Hansberry

11-26-2003, 03:12 AM

To make sure your CAB is not deleted after you installed it you need to mark it as readonly. Works for me.Yeah, but if I could remember to do that each time, I could remember to make a copy too. There are lots of valid workarounds and great tips for this kind of thing, but the point of a PDA is to simpify things. :-)

msprague

11-26-2003, 04:11 AM

I voted 100% CAB.

I use SK CabInstl (http://s-k.al.ru/wincepdaru.html#ci) which is probably what the author alluded to. I only sync at work and I almost always install software at home.

If an app does not include a CAB I run the setup at home on my computer that does have Activesync installed, but without a connection to my device. Then I scrounge my hard drive for the CAB files and guess at which one is ARM and copy it to my SD card. Then I install with SK CanInstl on my device. I always put a copy of the CAB in a specific directory on my PC for future use and keep a copy of the CAB on my SD card for critical apps.

MichaelA

11-26-2003, 04:13 AM

I'd love to see the CabInstall and Remover applications added to the OS. These are two must have utilities IMHO.

CabInstall can install a CAB anywhere on your device, and you can decide if you want the file deleted by default or not.

Since I got my new Pocket PC 2003 device I have never used the built-in add/remove programs link, and have used Remover instead. Unlike the default add/remove, it doesn't forget about files and leave extra junk on your device after installing and uninstalling lots of applications.

Rather than rely on Microsoft and OEMs to choose what goes in ROM, I'd love it if utilities were available to dump the ROM, add/remove files, and then reflash it. Then we could all get rid of the unnecessry junk we never use (like Pocket MSN, the Pictures viewer, heck, even Pocket Word!) and install truly useful 3rd Party utilities we rely on. I remember reading somewhere that clever folks had built utilities to do this for one of the Pocket PC Phone devices. It's a shame we can't all customize our ROMs.

Pixelnose

11-26-2003, 04:18 AM

Yes, other OS users than just Windows are using ppc's. I wish developers would realise that. :(

For us Mac users, we have two options for Activesync reaplacement. Trying to extract cabs from exe files on a mac is dodgy at best. It's the height of annoyance that I don't need my pc anymore....unless I'd like to install something. And why? Is it because of ppc? No, it's because of close-minded developers.

So yes, please, ppc developers, Mac users use your products too. We'd love to support and buy your products, but if you use needless exe's-only, then how can we possibly use and buy your products?

And cheers to those few developers like Pocket Informant who actually realise this.

DinarSoft

11-26-2003, 04:49 AM

There are some problems with cab files installation
some of them have work arounds (like the cab file being deleted after the installation, ...)
some other don't, like the fact that you can't control where the program gets installed, with cab file installation the program always goes to the main memory !
Also for newbies a .cab file is not the best way to install files, we've seen too many people asking about what to do with a cab file (the first thing most newbies do is open it with winzip and then they don't know what to do next)

As a developer we thought about this issue when we started selling our products (PC-exe?, cab?, PPC-exe?, zi pfile ?....etc)

- if we ship .cab files our support line will be flodded by EMails from people asking about what to do ?

- if we ship .zip file with an .exe and a .cab this will even confuse people more (what is this file, and what is that other one ?) and some people might not have any unzipping software (Strange but true)

- if we ship .exe we "might" get EMails from people asking for .cab files and then we can send the .cab file to them. like what happened with our HandyMenu product (read the original message)

So we voted for the 3rd option because we thought this will be the best option for us. (and in fact we only got 2 requests for .cab files so far)

Unlick HAndAnGo some other companies provide different links for .cab/.zip/.exe/... and it's then up to the buyer to choose. However HandAnGo provide developers with the ability to upload one file only

So we still think (from a adeveloper point of view) PC .exe files are the best solution (for now at least)

Just our 2 cents

DinarSoft

Gerard

11-26-2003, 04:52 AM

I'm in the 'most of the time I use CAB files' camp. That's for one reason: the odd software won't function correctly with a CAB install, or does not provide a CAB file. Two prominent cases for me are Textmaker and Stowaway keyboard installs. The former comes with 'data1.cab' and such, but no true final package installer for the PPC. It must be installed from a PC, it seems. The Stowaway provides a CAB once unpacked, though it's a bit tricky to grab, but installing this way gets me a 'cannot find language dll' sort of error, and the keyboard refuses to work. Again, must have a PC handy. That stinks, and it's not Microsoft's fault. ThinkOutside/Targus is to blame for never responding to my many complaints about this. I did a Stowaway review, for the Casio version, and was in a lot of contact with a ThinkOutside rep (they invented the thing - Targus is merely a distributor). On the CAB question I got not one word, ever. On everything else the rep was very cooperative.

Otherwise I use CABs, and that's about 98% of my installs. I've found that many 'EXE' files are in fact ZIP or RAR files, and can be unpacked on my iPAQ very easily with any number of softwares. PocketRAR is especially handy.

As for them not disappearing, just mark the file Read Only before use, or check that option in CabInstl, and worry no more; the file will still be there later, for archiving in a card. I like to keep my CABs in RAR archives, as PocketRAR is more stable than Resco Explorer for compressing to very small sizes. Of course, this sort of stuff is not for the novice, who is often confused by even Activesync installation options.

CTSLICK

11-26-2003, 05:04 AM

mscdex

11-26-2003, 05:09 AM

I had attempted to start a website where you could download CABs only, of all your favorite applications, but nobody showed much interest in such a website, so I just didn't go far with it. I went as far as to contact developers asking for permission, and got permission from a lot of companies, but since there was a lack of interest, I didn't go through with it. :?

Now that I have more time and resources I could put one together just for the heck of it, but then again I sold my pocketpc awhile ago :)

gorkon280

11-26-2003, 05:10 AM

It takes a mear 2 seconds to read this line:

copy cab file to your Pocket PC and tap on the cab file

Copying it to the PPC should not be hard if people RTFM. I am honestly sick of people saying well we can't do that because blah blah blah.

I want cabs because I surf the web...ALOT from my PPC. If I see an app, I would like to download and install it with out having to run the exe from my desktop. One coudl do it this way:

Click here if your on a PC
Click here if your on your Pocket PC.

CAB's can and do pretty much auto execute(well if you tell it to) when you download them with PIE.

rob_ocelot

11-26-2003, 05:32 AM

My Vote...Mostly ActiveSync Sometimes Cab does not represent what I want I would prefer cabs unless there is truly some desktop component that works with the PPC app. I have an ongoing battle with my IT dept regarding the PPC apps I install at work because they always plunk crap onto the hard drive.

What really gets my goat is that this crap that sits on your hard drive never seems to go into the same place. The majority of it goes into the /program files/MSactivesync/ folder, but often I come across directories that I do not recognize and lo and behold: they are the detritus of some Pocket PC app that I tried out but didn't like.

I understand the need for TEMPORARY directories when a program is installing, since Activesync needs to probe your PPC to get the processor type and space to extract the correct .cab file to before it sends it to the PPC. The problem is that Activesync doesn't clean up after itself.

Activesync shouldn't have to find out your pocket PC's processor and scan your previously installed apps EVERY TIME you install a new piece of software. Once you have about 10 programs isntalled this process takes what seems like forever to accomplish. Both of these things are something that should be stored in your PPC's profile on your PC!

The problem really is twofold:

1) Activesync is antiquated garbage

2) Developers use Activesync because that is the most direct route for the average consumer to get their program onto the PPC.

Regards,
Rob S.

peppzilla

11-26-2003, 05:48 AM

Add me to the list of those whose votes do not reflect what they want. I can't stand dealing with the PC. I know, I know, the PPC is supposed to be a PC companion :roll: and we are all supposed to run back to our PC's every five minutes. The thing that gets me the most is all the crap that is put on my hard drive. When I install something, I don't want to have to hunt down the place where the installer hid all of its files. Not to mention the stuff it adds to the start menu. I already spent some time organizing it the way I want it. I can't spend all my time cleaning up.

By the way, this is the first poll I have voted in using the mobile site. Cool!

Wes Salmon

11-26-2003, 07:13 AM

1) Ask the user where to install the application. Currently, it assumes RAM. There are third party apps that will allow you to override this, but that would be like having to have a third party app on your desktop to redirect installs to other partitions.
Interestingly enough, Windows Mobile smartphones will not install a .cab file's contents into RAM by default when an SD card is present, it will prompt you for a location. So it's broken on Pocket PC's, but not Smartphones. :(

Tom W.M.

11-26-2003, 08:21 AM

I'm part of the 100% CAB file group, simply because my Casio's cradle is broken. :(

To me, even worse than CAB files being immediately unavailable is an installer that only creates temporary files. It's very annoying to have to search my hard drive for CABs that do not exist. Of course, even worse are installers that do not create any CAB files at all. :evil: Fortunately this type of installer is rare, but it means that I am totally unable to install the program—and it certainly wastes my time to search my hard drive for CAB files that never existed!

Paul

11-26-2003, 08:34 AM

Yes more cab files please! and built in option to choose where we want to install it to would be nice.

Here's how I used cabs recently.
Ex. I was at a coffee shop surfing away on my ipaq. Not liking the music they played there I wanted to look into streaming music to my pda. Did a websearch and ended up downloading GSPlayer 2 .cab file, installed it and was on my way to shoutcast to stream some tunes. Worked out great!

That's something I like to see more of.

torgamm

11-26-2003, 09:34 AM

If an app does not include a CAB I run the setup at home on my computer that does have Activesync installed, but without a connection to my device. Then I scrounge my hard drive for the CAB files and guess at which one is ARM and copy it to my SD card. Then I install with SK CanInstl on my device. I always put a copy of the CAB in a specific directory on my PC for future use and keep a copy of the CAB on my SD card for critical apps.
That's exactly what I do too.
Just one tip: even if you have an active connection between your desktop computer and your Pocket PC, you can still use your method. When ActiveSync asks you if you really want to install the program, click on Cancel, nothing happens on the Pocket PC but the CABs are already created!

helloboys

11-26-2003, 09:37 AM

I think the solution is some sort of "universal" file format that can either be double-clicked on a PC, which will bring up the friendly wizard based install that installs on the PocketPC via ActiveSync (preferably without installing crud on the PC) AND can be copied to the Pocket PC and executed from there.

Oleander

11-26-2003, 10:42 AM

I can see that there is a general consensus that cab is the way to go. Well i beg to differ!

I actually think that the fact that most apps first installs on the PC and then on to the PPC, is the best thing since sliced bread.

I dont use Outlook. I really think its the worst piece of c***p ever made.
So to be forced to use ActiveSync just to sync Outlook with the equally bad PocketInbox is utterly insane.

Having used a PPC for quite a while now, i've learned that like with any MS OS it's generally a good idea to do a hard reset and reinstall everything from scratch now and again. And this is where AS really shines - with all my apps already installed once, I can just open AS and install it all again from there.

Yes, I know I could do that from a cab file folder on my SD-card, but it is so much more convenient to have them listed by their names than to figure out exactly what "xxyyzz~1.cab" is.

Having said that, I totally agree with everybody here, who wants the cab files made available together with an installer. I'm all for giving people the option to choose themselves.

PR.

11-26-2003, 11:10 AM

Ed Hansberry

11-26-2003, 01:18 PM

Ok, to the 4 people so far that have voted the PPC is perfect: Thanks for reading the site Windows Mobility Developent Team, but you are distorting the results of the poll. :wink: :rotfl:

gorkon280

11-26-2003, 01:54 PM

VanHlebar

11-26-2003, 02:28 PM

I am currently developing a piece of software that is in beta testing. I have opted to use the route of creating an .exe file that is run on the PPC. I had to go as far as spelling this out on the download page at Handago since alot of people thought the file needed to be run from the desktop and it would not install.

I also will be putting up CAB files on Handango and have each of those two options available on our website for users to download whichever they choose.

I prefer to be able to download and install all of my applications directly on my ppc. Unfortunately this is not the way I do it most of the time because I do not like to install all of my apps to main memory. If M$ were to fix the CAB files to allow the end user to specify a location then I would use CAB files 100% of the time.

On a side note, Handango does allow developers to upload CAB files to there mobile site, which is great and fine. The issue we have with this is that our software installation file is an .exe file that runs on the ppc. We can't upload the ppc installation file to the mobile site because they only allow CAB files uploaded there. :(

-Eric

jgrnt1

11-26-2003, 03:22 PM

I've said this before, but we have to remember that we are not average users. The fact that we frequent this site is evidence of this. We like to tweak, customize, edit, enhance, etc. We use PIM replacements, Today plug-ins, registry tweaks, and the like. The average user has a VCR which flashes "12:00." He or she wants to push a button and go. He or she cannot comprehend anything more than that. For them, the issue is that ActiveSync is far from perfect.

If you think I'm exaggerating, think of how many friends you have to help with the simplest PC or PPC tasks. How many of your friends have called you in desperation, when their computers crashed or slowed to a crawl? You go to the house, find a cable or DSL connection, no firewall of any kind, antivirus software that is disabled or has never had its virus definitions updated, no security updates for the OS or other programs, spyware all over the place, several hundred MB's of temporary internet files, half a gig of files in the Temp folder, etc. The screen's brightness and contrast are all messed up, the image is horribly off-center and noticeably pincushioned, the mouse pointer jitters across the screen until you take the mouse apart and remove the hairball.....and then you look over at the display on the VCR -- flash, flash. This is the average user.

ppcinfo

11-26-2003, 03:27 PM

I'm a developer, and I would have to agree with DinarSoft's comments. Most people (who are truly novices at using a Pocket PC), have their device attached to their ActiveSync cradle and simply want to run an executable on their Desktop PC to install the software. So we provide the user with a Desktop installer to perform this function. Asking these novices to copy a file from their Desktop PC to their Pocket PC and run it seems like a monumental task to some. Of course, anyone reading this discussion forum wouldn't think so :wink:

The growing base of wireless-based Pocket PC devices, it does make sense for us to provide our software in the form of CAB files for easy download and installation. So, we'll most likely continue to distribute our software as Desktop PC-run exe files, and also as CAB files for those who know how to use them.

Regards,

ppcinfo

CTSLICK

11-26-2003, 04:47 PM

If CAB files are to be distributed as well as EXE files then for the love of god put the CAB file in a ZIP file because PIE just does not do CAB files :(

Hmm never had an issue with downloading a cab on my 5555. Maybe you're trying a CAB for the wrong processor?

PIE's problem with downloading CAB's is related to how the web page is set up. Janak explained this one time I just can't remember all the tech details

CTSLICK

CTSLICK

11-26-2003, 05:00 PM

To the developers in the crowd

OK, so as an advanced user I've lost my perspective...maybe your right that the everyday users just want to launch an install from the desktop.

Most of my argument regarding Activesync installs is fueled by the stuff that gets plunked onto my hard drive and in my start menu and on my desktop without asking me. Either stop doing that or give me more options during the install process to customize and control what its going to the PC. This is really getting to be a contentious point with my "friends" in IT who figure that any PC problem I have is related to a piece of PPC software that I installed.

And yes...I am a wireless user as well and want to be able to grab updates or install new apps when hooked up via GPRS or WiFi.

Pixelnose

11-26-2003, 05:54 PM

Well you won't get any money from the Mac camp, that's for sure. As for cab installation on a mac, it will in fact ask where you want to install the cab, and no, the cab file is not automatically deleted. I know it's believed that we are a small segment of customers, but we are potential customers none-the-less. A decision such as the one you made needlessly frustrates users and alienates potiential customers. Smart move.

There are some problems with cab files installation
some of them have work arounds (like the cab file being deleted after the installation, ...)
some other don't, like the fact that you can't control where the program gets installed, with cab file installation the program always goes to the main memory !
Also for newbies a .cab file is not the best way to install files, we've seen too many people asking about what to do with a cab file (the first thing most newbies do is open it with winzip and then they don't know what to do next)

As a developer we thought about this issue when we started selling our products (PC-exe?, cab?, PPC-exe?, zi pfile ?....etc)

- if we ship .cab files our support line will be flodded by EMails from people asking about what to do ?

- if we ship .zip file with an .exe and a .cab this will even confuse people more (what is this file, and what is that other one ?) and some people might not have any unzipping software (Strange but true)

- if we ship .exe we "might" get EMails from people asking for .cab files and then we can send the .cab file to them. like what happened with our HandyMenu product (read the original message)

So we voted for the 3rd option because we thought this will be the best option for us. (and in fact we only got 2 requests for .cab files so far)

Unlick HAndAnGo some other companies provide different links for .cab/.zip/.exe/... and it's then up to the buyer to choose. However HandAnGo provide developers with the ability to upload one file only

So we still think (from a adeveloper point of view) PC .exe files are the best solution (for now at least)

Just our 2 cents

DinarSoft

JonnoB

11-26-2003, 07:10 PM

PIE's problem with downloading CAB's is related to how the web page is set up. Janak explained this one time I just can't remember all the tech details

The MIME file type must be set correctly. IE on the desktop ignores this property and tries to guess according the filename exension. PIE is a bit more strict about the proper tags being used in the markup language. I like the adherence to standard, but a bit of PIE intelligence wouldn't hurt either. This is an area where add-ons like MultiIE can help.

DinarSoft

11-26-2003, 07:28 PM

We didn't say we don't provide .cab files for our customers, we said they are a small number of customers that's why we choosed to have the PC setup as our default packaging (making a PC-exe setup file takes more effort that just the .cab file)
and if you go back to the original message you'll see that we provided a copy of the .cab file to the customer who asked for it. It's just not our default option and we tried to explain why in our previous message

BTW: we're open to suggestions
if you don't like developers not providing .cab files by default
we don't like loosing you or anyone else as a potential customer either :)

DinarSoft

Well you won't get any money from the Mac camp, that's for sure. As for cab installation on a mac, it will in fact ask where you want to install the cab, and no, the cab file is not automatically deleted. I know it's believed that we are a small segment of customers, but we are potential customers none-the-less. A decision such as the one you made needlessly frustrates users and alienates potiential customers. Smart move.

DaleReeck

11-26-2003, 08:27 PM

If CAB files are to be distributed as well as EXE files then for the love of god put the CAB file in a ZIP file because PIE just does not do CAB files :(

And I 2nd the motion of developers to STOP PUTTING USELESS files on my PC I reckon over half of my Add/Remove programs option are PPC things on my PC its just not needed

And 3rdly STOP putting a whole folder in the Startmenu for a PPC program on my PC that only contains a shortcut to a readme file.

I would add to that:

Software makers, if you are uprading your app to a new version, do not install it into a different directory than the previous version just because the version number changes or you decided to change your mind. I like keeping a clean PocketPC and I hate getting an upgrade and installing it, only to discover it wants to create a new directory name as if it were a new app and not upgrading an old one. The old one doesn't get uninstalled, which means I have to quit the new install, uninstall the old app so I don't end up with both versions on my PPC, then install the new version again. Software guys, settle on a name and directory structure and stick with it!

DinarSoft

11-26-2003, 08:33 PM

I would add to that:

Software makers, if you are uprading your app to a new version, do not install it into a different directory than the previous version just because the version number changes or you decided to change your mind. I like keeping a clean PocketPC and I hate getting an upgrade and installing it, only to discover it wants to create a new directory name as if it were a new app and not upgrading an old one. The old one doesn't get uninstalled, which means I have to quit the new install, uninstall the old app so I don't end up with both versions on my PPC, then install the new version again. Software guys, settle on a name and directory structure and stick with it!

Amen to that

lapchinj

11-26-2003, 09:14 PM

If i could, I would install all of my apps with cab files. If that were possible, my vote would've been different...
Yeah I totally agree. The question should have been "How I would like to do my installations - Cab or ActiveSynch". Right now we can only install apps with the installer provided by the developer. If I could I would also only install via Cab file and also keep important Cabs on one of my CF cards.

Jeff -

DinarSoft

11-26-2003, 09:23 PM

If you really want to have a .cab file from your PC based setup, you can just install for the first time using the windows installer and then
go to /program files/Microsoft ActiveSync/...
and you'll find the cab files in there

bmhome1

11-27-2003, 12:24 AM

I don't get it. I'm 100% Mac based and have over 90 applications installed on my 3955. Every single one installed with .exe installers with Activesync running in XP on Virtual PC. Not a single problem ever, with any of them.

Doesn't Activesync allows the selection of where to install apps simply by choosing manual instead of default. How hard is it to cut and paste in PPC File Explorer if you want to change the location later, anyway?

Also, why would one store .CAB files on a card as backup instead of a real current full OS backup with Sprite on a card?

Other than downloading a .CAB from the net on a PPC, the rest seem pointless. The time saved mentioned would be miniscule. How much room does all those .exe archives take up in the desktop PC, maybe 20MB total.

Lastly, regarding Macs, restarting the computer to even run VPC indicates severe problems with the installation or simply lack of having enough RAM to smoothly run the emulation. VPC is no speed demon, but it works exceptionally well for the tiny PPC .exe installer file sizes.

In the end, everyone would have to pay for the extra developer's time to maintain .CAB selection for a truly tiny market segment. Smaller than the Mac PPC user base, if that's even possible.

Gerard

11-27-2003, 12:53 AM

Doesn't Activesync allows the selection of where to install apps simply by choosing manual instead of default. How hard is it to cut and paste in PPC File Explorer if you want to change the location later, anyway?

Yes it does allow installation to alternate locations, in a crude way. It forces install to the storage card root, making often for a very messy file structure (say, when one wants to navigate to the My Documents folder and there are 27 folders above it to be scrolled past, every... single... time. Another problem with this is that some developers are very sloppy about install locations, dumping files of a number of types into the root of the card. This can lead to conflicts if a different developer has used a like-named file, which is not the same file. Namely, one program will then fail. As for moving programs later, sure, sometimes this can work. But more complex programs which are, like it or not, nailed down in the registry as to locations of files, will often simply fail to load if moved manually. Further, if any file associations are involved, they too will fail. If one moves an image viewer, for instance, image files will lose their icons and tapping them will fail to open them, delivering instead an error message. Registry edits aren't that much fun for most users.

Also, why would one store .CAB files on a card as backup instead of a real current full OS backup with Sprite on a card?

As has been stated, since a lot of install/uninstall routines and general usage can make a PPC downright grumpy, it's nice to do a hard reset/manual rebuild once in a while. I do it about every 6 months, usually. Clears the cobwebs, makes for a snappier device. Often there are little bugs I've just got used to dealing with that then disappear.

How much room does all those .exe archives take up in the desktop PC, maybe 20MB total.

One of my first purchases for my Casio E-115, back in the fall of 2000, was bSquare's Utility Suite 2.0. The downloaded installer file weighed in at 28.2MB. When double-clicked on the PC, it unpacked a duplicate set of CAB files for 10 programs, with complete sets for every available platform - Palm-size PC, Pocket PC, and H/PC. That unpacked version more than doubled the amount of used disc space, the new total being over 70MB (usually PC-based install packages are compressed). That's no small thing, and it's just one download from one developer. As it happened I only wanted 4 of the 10 programs in there, and there were checkboxes for that selection process. There was no option to unpack only what one wanted, as it all just unpacked and sat there. I manually deleted this mess once I figured it out.

I have downloaded and installed hundreds of softwares for PPC, both for personal use and for testing for review or beta reporting. This is, I acknowledge, unusual behavior. Though the bSquare suite was unusually large, there have been many others of serious size. Textmaker is over 16MB on the disc, not including dictionaries. I'd guess my wasted space on the PC at well over 1GB if I hadn't regularly deleted or moved and compressed the ones I didn't need on the PC.

Pixelnose

11-27-2003, 01:18 AM

The problem is that I'm not the only Mac user I know who gets frustrated at finding a program we want to test, only to find we need to email the developer with "pretty please, may I?" PC users have instant access to these programs and there's really no reason that we shouldn't have that same access.

I understand your hassle, I'm just pointing to our hassle.. that's all. :(

edit - to add to that - using VPC sorta defeats the purpose of having a Mac. When I speak of installing, I mean programs such as Pocketmac or The Missing Sync. Some exe's are exactractable, most are not.

We didn't say we don't provide .cab files for our customers, we said they are a small number of customers that's why we choosed to have the PC setup as our default packaging (making a PC-exe setup file takes more effort that just the .cab file)
and if you go back to the original message you'll see that we provided a copy of the .cab file to the customer who asked for it. It's just not our default option and we tried to explain why in our previous message

BTW: we're open to suggestions
if you don't like developers not providing .cab files by default
we don't like loosing you or anyone else as a potential customer either :)

DinarSoft

Well you won't get any money from the Mac camp, that's for sure. As for cab installation on a mac, it will in fact ask where you want to install the cab, and no, the cab file is not automatically deleted. I know it's believed that we are a small segment of customers, but we are potential customers none-the-less. A decision such as the one you made needlessly frustrates users and alienates potiential customers. Smart move.

Gerard

11-27-2003, 01:55 AM

The problem with un-extractable EXE installer files is that there are several vendors competing to sell PPC software install bundling programs to all the developers of PPC ware. Installshield is one of the big boys, and their packaging is not inzippable using any software a PPC user can have. Even with PKZip or WinRAR on my PC I can't crack one of those open. Of course, it's probably worse still for a Mac user. I've encountered at least 5 types of PC-based EXE installer files (bearing different proprietary icons) which have in fact been ZIP files, and a couple of different ones which have been RAR files under the mask of the EXE name. Just for laughs, I always test first on my iPAQ, then if a download fails I'll dump it to a CF card and move it to my PC for Activesync extraction.

Someone earlier on mentioned that all one need do is initiate an Activesync install, then cancel, and the CAB files will be unpacked. This is sometimes the case, but more and more often these days I'm seeing EULA boxes with 'don't agree' set as the default, which must be clicked through before anything unpacks. As many as a half-dozen steps must be gone through for some programs before a CAB appears, and in a growing number of cases the CAB files will vanish from their temporary location (often a well hidden and odd location) if one closes the install dialogue. So in those cases, I'll get to the 'on next connection install will continue' box, leave that up, and browse around the drive until I find the new CAB, copy it out, then close the install.

bmhome1

11-27-2003, 02:38 AM

Using VPC to interface with a 100% PC only device, both hardware and all software, seems to me to be just common sense if one chooses to venture into the PPC arena. Just wait until the next major Microsoft updater.

.Exe installers aren't going to go away, they are deeply part of the PPC framework. It's like buying an MP3 player, then complaining about the format.

Besides, the .exe installers provide the license agreement mechanism that no major software developer will let get bypasssed anymore.

Pixelnose

11-27-2003, 02:55 AM

I don't really get the rantings about mp3 - there are many other compression formats to choose from and many players to choose from... :?:

I use a Mac so that I can use its OS and programs made for its OS. If I want to use Windows, I use a PC. PPC is now completely compatible with Mac. I chose to sync to the Mac because I prefer it to Activesync.. so I don't really get what you're saying there either...

The only incompatibility is in the installation of software. EULA's can always be put into the ppc-side of the program installation - and many programs do this. So, I don't really get what you're saying there either...

I guess I'm just trying to take steps forward.. no point in taking 3 steps back. 8)