More Upcoming Toshiba Pocket PCs [Archive]

Janak Parekh

10-09-2003, 09:30 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://forum.sorobangeeks.com/viewtopic.php?p=27649#27649' target='_blank'>http://forum.sorobangeeks.com/viewt...p?p=27649#27649</a><br /><br /></div>For a company who purportedly says <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18871">Pocket PCs are dead</a>, Toshiba is awfully busy releasing new ones.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/parekh-20031009-Toshiba.jpg" /><br /><br />An English translation of the post is <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.sorobangeeks.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D27649%2327649&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools">here</a>. They seem to be Japanese-only devices for now, but seem to have the 4" displays that are the hallmark of some of the previous Genio devices. The one pictured above is interesting -- not only does it have an integrated camera, it also seems to have a screen cover, for a change! 8O It would be nice if Toshiba actually got its act together -- they have some talented design teams.

dean_shan

10-09-2003, 09:49 PM

Does it have CF and SD? I couldn't see if it did.

burtman007

10-09-2003, 09:53 PM

Doesn't matter what it has. :wink:

As an e740 owner I say "BAH!" (Dilbert reference...)

Ratel10mm

10-09-2003, 10:00 PM

Acording to the post, it's got SDIO, CF, and 128M memory.
If that's 128Meg RAM, a la the HP5555, and if it's got wifi & BT, then I'm up for it! Although I do hope that Tosh provide an upgrade. I wouldn't mind paying for it, if it offers a significant improvement over WinMob2003 :|

JonnoB

10-09-2003, 10:07 PM

Doesn't matter what it has. :wink:

As an e740 owner I say "BAH!" (Dilbert reference...)

The e740, 755, etc were designed by a different team from the Genio line of Pocket PCs. The Genio line is much more inventive and aggressive. I just wish the two design groups would get together and make the best device possible. I also think it was the US operation that said the PDA market was dead. In Japan, I think they are still huge believers in the market.

That said, I am glad to see a great new device.
SDIO
CF I/II
128mb memory
Camera
32MB ROM
16MB Flash disk
4" transflective display
flip cover!!!!
camera w/ flash
jog dial
no mention of wireless integration :(

Scott R

10-09-2003, 10:09 PM

It's nice to see someone adding not only a flip-cover, but a clear one at that. As a Treo 300 owner, I can tell you that it's nice to be able to quickly check my schedule or look at an appointment alarm without having to open up the clamshell. With a traditional PDA, you'd have to take it out of a sleeve or flip open the cover, but this eliminates that step.

Scott

Paul

10-09-2003, 10:29 PM

Toshiba Japan should market the Genio series worldwide. They know what people want.

lonesniper

10-09-2003, 10:59 PM

As an e740 owner I say "BAH!" (Dilbert reference...)

Isn't that really a Dogbert reference. A wave of the paw and "Bah!".
If I am wrong please don't send Bob The Dinosaur round to give me a wegdy. :)

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

10-09-2003, 11:07 PM

Acording to the post, it's got SDIO, CF, and 128M memory.
Phenomenal!!

Combine that with the 4" screen and I'm sold!!

Jonathon Watkins

10-09-2003, 11:16 PM

Not bad - not bad. Only missing VGA really. I'm going to sound like a stuck record soon. :?

ikesler

10-09-2003, 11:17 PM

SCREENCOVER, SCREENCOVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mrgreen:

cptpoland

10-09-2003, 11:29 PM

Bruno Figueiredo

10-09-2003, 11:51 PM

Do we really want VGA resolution? Isn't that overkill for a pocket device?
For me double the resolution a la T3 would be fine. 320x480! Yay!

JonnoB

10-10-2003, 12:01 AM

Do we really want VGA resolution?

Yes

Isn't that overkill for a pocket device?

No

JonnoB

10-10-2003, 12:02 AM

I don't think these units will make it here. There were other Genio's in Japan, while the e740 was introduced in North America... Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any Genio PPC actually for sale here. Never even seen it advertised anywhere.

CP

The original Genio was brought to the US via CompUSA in a direct deal with Toshiba Japan. I think it miffed the Toshiba US operation a bit.

JonnoB

10-10-2003, 12:02 AM

MichaelA

10-10-2003, 12:53 AM

Sorry for the off-topic, but since it comes up sometimes...

I had the chance to play with a Pocket PC sized device with a 640x480 screen (the one BSquare has been working on forever), and it was a bit of a shock. The higher resolution doesn't actually give you much more space to work with. Being restricted to the physical screen dimensions means unless you have exceptional vision, buttons, menus, and such will be roughly the same size as they are now.

Graphics look nicer, but text can't shrink as small as you might think.

Just a thought.

Scott R

10-10-2003, 12:56 AM

Do we really want VGA resolution? Isn't that overkill for a pocket device?
For me double the resolution a la T3 would be fine. 320x480! Yay!Well, I really think you need to double the width and height the way Palm (or really Sony) did as this can simplify things such that (theoretically) existing apps would fill the entire 640x480 resolution by doubling the pixels and smoothing the fonts. Apps that were specially coded for 640x480 could take full advantage of the added resolution (e.g. - adding more visible cells in a spreadsheet). If you only doubled one side so as to get 320x480, how would existing apps operate within that?

Is 640x480 overkill? I don't think so. In any case, overkill today is out-of-date tomorrow. :)

Scott

dean_shan

10-10-2003, 12:59 AM

Is 640x480 overkill? I don't think so. In any case, overkill today is out-of-date tomorrow. :)

That is so true.

Scott R

10-10-2003, 01:11 AM

ricksfiona

10-10-2003, 01:28 AM

Looks like a great device. If it has Bluetooth & WiFi, even better.

Unfortunately with all the bad press that Toshiba gets, I'd be weary of getting one.

Paul P

10-10-2003, 01:30 AM

If this thing doesn't have integrated wireless, looks like HP is going to get even more business.

maximus

10-10-2003, 02:11 AM

I don't think these units will make it here. There were other Genio's in Japan, while the e740 was introduced in North America... Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any Genio PPC actually for sale here. Never even seen it advertised anywhere.

CP

{Make note} Business opportunity : exporting japan/korean PPCs into USA/Canada {end note}

But you guys read japanese/koreanese, right ? :mrgreen:

Ed@Brighthand

10-10-2003, 02:12 AM

These look like the Genio e550C that Toshiba introduced in Japan in March:

www.brighthand.com/article/Toshiba_e550C_Offers_Built-In_Camera

Prevost

10-10-2003, 02:44 AM

MichaelA, you raise a very good point. 640x480 on even a "large" 4" diagonal screen will result in some usability headaches. Apps that take advantage of this added resolution (like the spreadsheet I just mentioned) will end up displaying really tiny text that's not only hard to read, but even harder to select using a stylus. Higher res screens will work better with a keyboard/thumbboard and stylus-alternatives.

Scott
Actually, at least to my tastes, this usability problem arise on resolutions as low as 320 x 320 (Palm)

In a 160 x 160 screen (m515) text at 10pt is large enough to be readable and at the same time this size renders fine in the printed page. However, in a 320 x 320 screen (Tungsten) I need to increase font size to 11pt, thus making it too large in the printed page; so I need to change font size every time I pass a document from PDA to desktop and viceversa. Not a good thing.

Timothy Rapson

10-10-2003, 02:50 AM

These look like the Genio e550C that Toshiba introduced in Japan in March:

www.brighthand.com/article/Toshiba_e550C_Offers_Built-In_Camera

There do appear to be small differences in the color of the button and speaker opening slits. Is there much difference in specs?

Overall a much better design for my use than any US PPC, but I doubt it will get here and if it does, it would probably be up in the stratosphere price-wise. There are too many good PDAs out in the $199-299 category for me to spend more than that anymore.

Scott R

10-10-2003, 02:54 AM

Actually, at least to my tastes, this usability problem arise on resolutions as low as 320 x 320 (Palm)I don't disagree. Palm's 320x320 resolution allows for some very smooth fonts. But applicatoins which "truly" utilize this added resolution end up negatively affecting readability. Jeff Hawkins designed the original PalmPilot with not only the 160x160 resolution in mind, but also the physical size of the screen. If you increase the resolution, keep the same screen size, and only use the added resolution for making fonts and graphics smoother, that's great but would have added little tangible benefit (factoring in the significantly increased cost of going from a 160x160 screen to a 320x320 screen). But if you keep the physical screen size the same and use the added resolution to show more "data", you end up with decreased readability and significantly decreased usability when using a stylus.

Having said all that, as a geek I'd be willing to deal with the added cost and decreased usability in exchange for a higher res screen.

Scott

Janak Parekh

10-10-2003, 02:57 AM

If you increase the resolution, keep the same screen size, and only use the added resolution for making fonts and graphics smoother, that's great but would have added little tangible benefit (factoring in the significantly increased cost of going from a 160x160 screen to a 320x320 screen). But if you keep the physical screen size the same and use the added resolution to show more "data", you end up with decreased readability and significantly decreased usability when using a stylus.
Actually, I disagree. The one major application that I'm stymied with on my Pocket PC is reading PDFs (or, rather, the RepliGo equivalent) without using reflowing. If the device were to render the file a little sharper, it would be a million times better for me. A 640x480 device would also make eBook reading that more pleasing to the eye. It would also make ThunderHawk that much better. :)

Agreed, the option of displaying more data is welcome, but it's by far not the only important application of a high-res screen.

Re useability: they need to increase the DPI of systemwide fonts and controls once the resolution gets bumped up. You can do it in Windows on the desktop -- so I can't imagine why MS couldn't add such functionality to the Pocket PC. The CE core has a TrueType rendering engine, I believe...

--janak

Scott R

10-10-2003, 03:06 AM

Janak Parekh

10-10-2003, 03:16 AM

Janak, when I said "little tangible benefit" I basically meant that a manufacturer isn't going to build in a high res screen just so they can make fonts smoother when it's going to cost them more (which means added cost to the consumer) as well as drain the battery faster and slow down screen redrawing.
Gotcha. I guess my point is that the applications are here, though, should a manufacturer want to release a high-end unit. You could have used the same argument for B&W vs. Color screens a few years ago. It's just a matter of time. ;)

But when you talk about viewing PDFs and using ThunderHawk, aren't you referring to showing more real data, rather than simply smoothing fonts?
Well, I can view the information with Thunderhawk just fine -- it would be smoother and easier to read with a 640x480 display. But it does eventually boil down to a question of semantics.

--janak

jpaq

10-10-2003, 03:22 AM

Toshiba Japan should market the Genio series worldwide. They know what people want.

They know some of what people want. What Toshiba seems to miss is that people want actual support on the devices that they invest in. That means, timely updates (see EUU's), firmware, additional software (see back-up, picture viewer, Powerpoint viewer, etc.) beyond the stripped base MS OS, should I go on?

Someone has got to step up to the plate. The common misperception is that this is a hardware OEM only statement. It's not. When Palm was a bottom dwelling, non-innovative, stick in the mud of an OS, Sony had the foresite and the access to enough base OS code to innovate and light a fire under Palm's A%@! Even if the OEM's innovate, I don't think any of them have access to enough base code to push the OS as Sony did to Palm. I may be wrong on that, but even if I am, it is undeniable that MS dropped the ball when it came to the leading edge innovation that it could have introduced with WM2003. MS Word, PIE, lack of VGA support, etc. Things that would have helped the OEM's to hold their own against the Palm devices that are on their way out now.

Is Toshiba, Microsoft's Sony? Not hardly. Are they a camp divided? It certainly seems that way. Do they looked confused and unorganized? Absolutely. That leaves the question, "Who is going to push the design, functionality, size, and price edge?" Who is MS's Sony? I hope one pops up soon and shocks us all with innovation and pushes MS with technology. I hope so, because I HATE Graffiti and I am not a Palm fan.

Scott R

10-10-2003, 03:45 AM

That leaves the question, "Who is going to push the design, functionality, size, and price edge?" Who is MS's Sony? I hope one pops up soon and shocks us all with innovation and pushes MS with technology.But as you allude to in the rest of your post, I suspect that the problem has more to do with Microsoft not allowing them to innovate. Hopefully they truly have relaxed things, though for me the biggest problems are still OS-related. One hardware "guideline" that I have to think existed (and hopefully no longer exists) is the center D-Pad positioning.

Scott

Tierran

10-10-2003, 04:30 AM

Eh, while I'll always be disappointed about the lack of WM2k3 for my e740, Toshiba has been ok on support overall. They have problems they need to take care of, but after the WM2k3 stuff went down, Toshiba also restructured their support dept that did everything they said they would do when they handled my BBB complaint. Whether people like it or not, they did put up a letter with their intentions of supporting WM2k3 for the e740 finally which had to do with the restructuring. And then finally provided support for ROM 23. All of this came very late and is inexcusable for its lateness, but the fact that they talked to me about it and handled it personally gives me hope.

As for this eGenio...cool! I hope it makes it over here. With the announcement of the e805 eGenio line and now this, perhaps Toshiba is having the eGenio team take over completely? I really like the eGenio line as it seems to also be the team that made the e570, the PPC I really wanted over my Jornada way back when ;) If that's so, that should be good news really. It could only help Toshiba to have one team doing their PPC work rather than several.

Bruno Figueiredo

10-10-2003, 10:39 AM

I'll explain better why I think 640x480 is overkill:

- 320x240 in a device used so close to the eyes lets us make out the individual pixel with a little effort. So double that resolution and it would be fine.

- a button or clickable item now has roughly 16 to 20px of height. If the screen were larger, they'll have to double them because the clickable area must remain the same so you can use it.

- the screen size is the real issue. larger it won't fit in a pocket, and in the actual size the UI must have a certain dimensions for you to use it with a stylus. and it has to account on imprecison. so, workspace would be around the same as it is now. 1/2 inch of diagonal size isn't that much bigger and more than that and it would compromise portability.

- text is now very readable with cleartype. can it have quad the sharpness? I think not. Double maybe. theorically you could have smaller text but it wouldn't be readable.

- processors and graphics chips would have twice or quad the workload. imagine a movie in higher resolution. not to mention you would have insuficient ram and the file would be bigger. and battery remarks? twice the workload, half the battery. do you real need high-res video on your pocket?

For all this accounts i think 640x480 is way overkill in a 4" screen. 320x480 is the way to go.

Timothy Rapson

10-10-2003, 01:43 PM

I think 640 by 480 is more than is needed, but given the current standard, it is the only next step up, for compatibility purposes on the WM2003 OS.

RE: all the innovation.

Microsoft does have a platform that allows all sorts of innovation. Windows CE. The Casio B300 and the Nexio come to mind. Do anything you want.......except run software that runs on the PPCs. A bad compromise, but one that is also present in a different way on the Palm OS. I can run about any old program on my Clie NR, but it will not be hi-res or full screen. I think Sony/Palm's sollution worked out better, but there are also a lot of programs from the PPC 2000+ era that work on the Casio B-300 with or without small modifications.

ultrapda

10-10-2003, 02:22 PM

I'll explain better why I think 640x480 is overkill:
...
For all this accounts i think 640x480 is way overkill in a 4" screen. 320x480 is the way to go.
I have seen the T3 and its screen is tremendous.
I can only imagine that VGA would be even more stunning.

For me, the killer app will be reading avantgo at VGA landscape.
Now I can read only pda specific content.
With VGA landscape I could read most regular sites.

Can I make a wild prediction?
A few years from now any PDA with resolution less than VGA will be considered a toy. :clap:

Thanos

SandersP

10-10-2003, 07:50 PM

at 4" VGA, the pixel size is very near the 320 by 320 screen pixel size.. (IE. it'll look the same)

I think it's .124 vs .126 pitch or something near that number. Regular QVGA is .24

qmrq

10-10-2003, 08:12 PM

Re useability: they need to increase the DPI of systemwide fonts and controls once the resolution gets bumped up. You can do it in Windows on the desktop -- so I can't imagine why MS couldn't add such functionality to the Pocket PC. The CE core has a TrueType rendering engine, I believe...
You can already change font size easy enough in the registry.. I have mine a bit smaller than normal.

blip

10-10-2003, 08:34 PM

Uh... What's all the ruckus about...? I have the "old" genio e 550C (the one with a camera). I can't find any differences besides having Win Mobile 2003 installed...? Well that and an extra "T" in the product name. Memory, CPU, non-existent wireless (except for IR but that doesn't count in this case :lol: ) etc - all seems to be exactly as the "old" ones. What am I missing here? Is this a re-introduction of some kind? To show the 550 series now come with WM 2003?

Btw it also seems owners of at least the 550C and the GD will (at last!) get an upgrade for 7000 yen starting the 17th this month! Ok, not cheap but anyway it's there if you want it, I know I do! :) IF I'll be able to order it from Sweden that is... :?