Keep it Legal Please

[Jason Dunn]

I should have explained this when I opened up the forum evidently, but let me be perfectly clear: I can't allow the discussion of eBook "warez". In addition to personally finding such theft morally disgusting as an author myself, the liability issue is huge: if you start sharing how to steal eBooks with each other, and a publisher decides to stop by this forum, guess who could be held liable? Pocket PC Thoughts (me).

Please respect my request in this matter - there are certainly other ways for you to get & share this information.

[Jereboam]

I'm sorry, but I haven't seen any real discussion of "warez" here since you opened the forum or beforehand actually...unless you have deleted any threads. There was one mention of an IRC chatroom which both the poster and I thought was probably inappropriate and duly invited any mod to remove the offending post, which is exactly what happened.

So, I feel offended that you feel that you have to post such a stern warning - immediately bringing up such emotive terms such as "morally disgusting" and "steal" - I sincerely hope that it wasn't directed at me, as I have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars, pounds, euros, rubles - whatever - acquiring legal and licensed copies of all my software, ebooks, music and so on ad infinitum, despite the (for example) readily available pirated copies of all of the above in Russia. I am a long term advocate of freeware, as I find many of these free programs superior to their commercial alternatives.

We're not children. I know these are your forums, but if someone has broken the rules perhaps a quiet message to that individual rather than a blanket warning would be more appropriate?

Thanks for listening...

J'bm

[Jason Dunn]

There was one mention of an IRC chatroom which both the poster and I thought was probably inappropriate and duly invited any mod to remove the offending post, which is exactly what happened.

Right, and that one post is exactly why I need to be up front and clear about the policy here regarding illegal eBooks. As long as I'm clear on our stance, people will know not to post things like that again, and we won't have a problem. :wink: There's no room for subtlety or confusion where this issue is concerned, and while I regreting making you feel singled out (that was not my intention - I didn't mention any names or link to any threads), this is not an issue on which I will "tip-toe" around.

[maximus]

While we are at it, why not include discussions about any kind of warez (apps, games, OS, PPC2K3, etc.) ... Things that are logically not to be discussed in a well-respected forum.

[Jason Dunn]

While we are at it, why not include discussions about any kind of warez (apps, games, OS, PPC2K3, etc.) ... Things that are logically not to be discussed in a well-respected forum.

I've never made an official announcement, but we've had dozens of discussions about warez and it's never been a major problem here - pretty much everyone knows my stance on it.

[Jereboam]

Well, the implication that all that is happening is chatter about where to rip off illegal ebooks is still clear, and while you did not mention any names or threads the reference was obvious.

The fact that there have been dozens of discussions about warez/roms and so forth that you have let go means that your sudden warning appears to be very focussed.

I am not requiring you to tip-toe around anything, but subtlety? Yes, when you depend upon your users to generate content in the forums then attention to people's sensibilities is required.

I still maintain that the tone of your post was less than your readers deserved.

J'bm

[Steven Cedrone]

The fact that there have been dozens of discussions about warez/roms and so forth that you have let go means that your sudden warning appears to be very focussed.


When have you ever seen a post about warez or ROMs where links were not immidiately removed by the moderators on this site... :roll:

Discussion is one thing, but when the line is crossed...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Jason Dunn]

The fact that there have been dozens of discussions about warez/roms and so forth that you have let go means that your sudden warning appears to be very focussed.

Really? How interesting. My moderators and I are quite quick to nail those threads down when the pop up, but if we've missed some, please list the URLs where I can find them. Your implication that we're somehow turning a blind eye to warez and piracy in this forum is quite insulting. Please provide proof for your accusation!

I still maintain that the tone of your post was less than your readers deserved.

And you, sir, seem to be the only one getting defensive over my message. I wonder why that is? (it's not a nice feeling, having your integrity insulted in a public forum, is it?)

[maximus]

When have you ever seen a post about warez or ROMs where links were not immidiately removed by the moderators on this site... :roll:


I was curious. Did you do that manually, or using a script ?

[Kati Compton]

When have you ever seen a post about warez or ROMs where links were not immidiately removed by the moderators on this site... :roll:


I was curious. Did you do that manually, or using a script ?

Manually. It would be extremely difficult (understatement) to write a script that could intelligently find and remove ONLY warez links.

[maximus]

When have you ever seen a post about warez or ROMs where links were not immidiately removed by the moderators on this site... :roll:


I was curious. Did you do that manually, or using a script ?

Manually. It would be extremely difficult (understatement) to write a script that could intelligently find and remove ONLY warez links.

Whoa. Salute to both of you then. I thought that both of you are using a script to produce the list of posts that contain profanity or 'indecent' links ...

[Jereboam]

Well.

Really? How interesting. My moderators and I are quite quick to nail those threads down when the pop up, but if we've missed some, please list the URLs where I can find them. Your implication that we're somehow turning a blind eye to warez and piracy in this forum is quite insulting. Please provide proof for your accusation!

You misunderstand. There has been no blanket warning about not discussing warez in other forums, that is my point, you have simply removed the offending post. When exactly did I imply that you were turning a blind eye to that practice, which as I have already stated, quite categorically, I find personally abhorrent also? It seems we agree on this, yet you still decide to try and use it against me...which makes no sense. Two people who agree on something surely have nothing to argue about surely.

I am still waiting for my 5450 ROM upgrade to come from Insight in the UK, and it looks like I will be waiting for some time to come...I could easily, as others have undoubtedly done, pull it off some IRC server somewhere, for free. Instead, I choose to spend not an inconsiderable sum and wait for a legal, licensed copy to get sent to my UK address, at which point I will have to have it couriered to me in Moscow, at additional cost. Pulling me into a debate about warez and illegal software will only bring to light additional points upon which we agree, so I am truly confused here.

And you, sir, seem to be the only one getting defensive over my message. I wonder why that is? (it's not a nice feeling, having your integrity insulted in a public forum, is it?)

Yes, I am, because I increasingly feel it was directed at me, and I would like to know why. Why exactly are you insulting my integrity, when all I tried to do was create a single thread that people could use as a useful resource to enhance their own reading of ebooks? Show me one link that I edited into my first post that points to an illegal source of ebooks or software to read them.

As I said in the thread...

Needless to say, we should stay away from illegal eBooks or DRM circumvention. We can all find them if we want to, so go find.

Let's make Pocket PC Thoughts the one-stop location for anyone getting into eBooks!!

So why is it me who is under attack here? Please indicate to me, specifically, what I hve done but try to assist others in an area that I enjoy very much, being ebooks.

J'bm

[Kati Compton]

Please believe me about the illegal eBook warning:

It wasn't in response to your posts. You did not post links to illegal eBooks. No one holds the thread initiator responsible if someone else in that thread posts links to warez, unless they ask for the links, which you did not.

At most, the poster who DID post the links reminded us that illegal eBooks would be an issue. That post was dealt with according to the usual practice of removing the URL. However, because this would come up again, we felt it was important to let people know in advance.

I think you're right that a blanket "no illegal ROMs, no illegal software" note might also be useful, but my guess is that this doesn't come up as much as the eBook issue (with its dedicated forum) would.

This note would have been posted even if not for the post about getting eBooks off of IRC. Maybe not quite as soon, but it would have.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood the reasoning for the warning - this was something that was discussed by Jason and the Moderators in email, and your name did not, at any point, come up. Jason did not refer to you in the warning. You were not targeted.

I think this argument is a misunderstanding where you felt targeted by the warning, responded as such, which upset Jason, since he tries very hard to manage the board AND keep everyone happy. Then it just ballooned.

Please think about this before posting again.

If the argument gets much more heated (on either side), it will have to be moved to the Hall of Flame and Shame, and I personally would prefer not to do that.

[dh]

I have a few books that I have obtained by non-approved methods. These are eBook versions of print books I already own that I would have purchased if available.

Since making a copy of a book that I own is acceptable under Fair Use, I see nothing wrong with my obtaining a digital copy, rather then scanning all the pages. Should I then share the new file, then yes I would now be breaking the law.

The only thing I have to do now is find a new online book store since I was a bn.com customer. Fictionwise looks the best bet.

[Jereboam]

Kati,

I understand all that. I agree that for some reason this has mushroomed into something else entirely. I also understand the tremendous amount of work that the administration of this site must be on Jason and all the moderators and contributors. That was one of the reasons I tried to create that thread - I did a similar thing on an AMD forum for freeware which was immensely successful, and was totally user-generated - ie no extra work for the mods but a good pull for the forums and a useful resource...who loses? Nobody. Who gains? Everybody who has an interest.

Even though I now accept that the first warning, although less general than I thought it should be, was not specifically targeted at me, which I doubted was the case in the first instance, the following...

And you, sir, seem to be the only one getting defensive over my message. I wonder why that is? (it's not a nice feeling, having your integrity insulted in a public forum, is it?)

...was certainly quite direct in its...direction, and quite astonishingly so. If it was a point of principle previously, it has now definitely turned into something aimed straight at me, which I am (I think reasonably) disappointed with, seeing as my stance is quite clearly compatible with that of the administration here.

I am as yet hoping that good will come of this. I certainly see no reason for a move to the Hall.

I disagreed with the tone of the warning. I have not flamed anyone, insulted anyone or broken any rules. I have laid out my arguments without rancor or aggression. However, no way will I now sit back and be labelled a thief without saying something about it.

As I said previously, it seems we agree. I hope that when Jason replies he will see that and will agree that what he said (quoted above) was wrong.

J'bm

[bjornkeizers]

Right, and that one post is exactly why I need to be up front and clear about the policy here regarding illegal eBooks.


Yeah, that was my post for those of you haven't seen that thread, and uh, you do know that warnings just won't stop those kind of posts, right?

Besides, I never said: go forth, and steal books. I clearly stated that this was not entirely legal, and only posted this as a good alternative for people who are unable to acquire certain books legally; either because they're out of print, unavailable, too expensive, or just plain illegal in some countrys.. I'll leave interpretation of that statement up to the reader.

I would like to point out though that I've recieved several IM's from people who are very interested in this option; and I will gladly share this info with whoever wants it in the interest of promoting reading and sharing.


... and while I regreting making you feel singled out (that was not my intention - I didn't mention any names or link to any threads)...

I'm ever so sorry Mr. Dunn, and shan't ever do it again [on PPC Thoughts Forums :D ]

[bjornkeizers]

I disagreed with the tone of the warning. I have not flamed anyone, insulted anyone or broken any rules. I have laid out my arguments without rancor or aggression. However, no way will I now sit back and be labelled a thief without saying something about it.


The warning was specifically targeted at me, you just got caught in the crossfire so to speak. For that, I apologize. I've been called a thief [and with good reason mind you!] and much worse.. so I don't really mind. It's just a thing we have, right mr. Dunn? :mrgreen:

[Jason Dunn]

There has been no blanket warning about not discussing warez in other forums, that is my point, you have simply removed the offending post.

How long have you been visiting this site? Since it started in October 2000? Probably not. So you'll have to take my word for it when I say that even way back in the days when we had a simple Blog commeting system, and no real forums, I was battling people who were posting warez. When we started up the forums, and I created a software forum, I didn't post a similar message because regular visitors to the site already knew my stance on the issue of posting warez.

If I was creating a software forum all over again, I'm sure I'd post a similar type of message in there. You have only my word that I'd do so, but I don't believe I've ever given anyone here a reason to not trust my word.

Why exactly are you insulting my integrity...

Because you insulted mine, and I wanted you to feel what it was like when someone makes baseless accusations in a public forum. It's not a nice feeling, is it? Then why did you do it to me?

I believe you when you say you don't have illegal eBooks, and you should believe me when I say that I don't allow any type of illegal warez on this site, whether it be eBooks, software, or anything else. You insulted both myself and my moderators by suggesting otherwise, and that's what offended me.

I in no way singled you out in my message, but I cannot and will not apologize for posting a policy message, regardless of who it offends. I think eBooks are wonderful, and I'm more than happy to create a forum for people to discuss eBooks, but I had to be very clear what we wouldn't allow.

I hope this clears things up.

[Jason Dunn]

Yeah, that was my post for those of you haven't seen that thread, and uh, you do know that warnings just won't stop those kind of posts, right?

Yes, it will stop, because these forums are moderated and I pay the hosting bill, not you. If you want to discuss eBook warez, there are plenty of public newsgroups and forums elsewhere that can serve as a resource for such things. I've defined the boundaries of what the eBooks forum should be used for, and if you don't like those boundaries, you should go elsewhere to find a locale more to your liking. If you decide to post anything about eBook warez again, your account will be locked and you'll be banned from this site. It's wonderfully simple, isn't it? :mrgreen:

[Jereboam]

This going round in circles.

Because you insulted mine, and I wanted you to feel what it was like when someone makes baseless accusations in a public forum. It's not a nice feeling, is it? Then why did you do it to me?

When did I insult you? What accusation?

I believe you when you say you don't have illegal eBooks, and you should believe me when I say that I don't allow any type of illegal warez on this site, whether it be eBooks, software, or anything else. You insulted both myself and my moderators by suggesting otherwise, and that's what offended me.

I never suggested anything close to what you claim. I explained what I said again, here -

You misunderstand. There has been no blanket warning about not discussing warez in other forums, that is my point, you have simply removed the offending post.

I never said you were hosting warez!?

I am not asking you to apologise for making a policy statement at all, and as I have said many times already I agree with it. Just not with the way the message was delivered.

And you, sir, seem to be the only one getting defensive over my message. I wonder why that is? (it's not a nice feeling, having your integrity insulted in a public forum, is it?)

This is what I would like an apology for. If as you say you believe me when I say I have no illegal ebooks, that should be an easy thing to do.

I, for my part, will of course apologise if any insult was understood from what I said, as it was certainly not intended, either towards you or your moderators, as I have tried numerous times to explain.

Actually...

You know what? Whatever. I give up. I have better things to do, as you do I am sure. I clearly cannot make you retract what you have said about me, even though I think that would be the correct thing for you to do.

J'bm

[easylife]

If you decide to post anything about eBook warez again, your account will be locked and you'll be banned from this site. It's wonderfully simple, isn't it? :mrgreen:
Ouch! 8O I always thought that we had a 'grace' period before severe administrative actions were invoked! I guess I had better steer clear of this forum (not board, just forum). :wink:

[Jason Dunn]

Ouch! 8O I always thought that we had a 'grace' period before severe administrative actions were invoked! I guess I had better steer clear of this forum (not board, just forum). :wink:

The grace period doesn't apply if the person already knows what they're doing is against our site policies and they go ahead and do it anyway. That's willfull violation, not a simple mistake made out of ignorance or a moment of anger.

[Jason Dunn]

Yes, this IS going in circles. :(

When did I insult you? What accusation?

You said this:

The fact that there have been dozens of discussions about warez/roms and so forth that you have let go means that your sudden warning appears to be very focussed.

I find that insulting to both myself and my team of helpers who do a great job at keeping this site warez-free. You never provided any proof by giving us links to these "dozens of discussions", which makes it baseless and thus even more insulting. I'm a lot of things (impatient, hot-headed, stubborn...the list goes on), but tolerant of warez? Never. :evil:

I am not asking you to apologise for making a policy statement at all, and as I have said many times already I agree with it. Just not with the way the message was delivered.

It's unfortunate that you didn't agree with my "style of delivery", but I don't feel I did anything wrong, and thus I will not apologize for it. If I made you feel singled out, I do apologize for that, because as Kati pointed out, that was not the intention at all. You certainly didn't do anything wrong - we never edited any of your posts. Please accept my apology for that.

[Kati Compton]

Okay, I think this has been resolved as far as it's going to get. I'm locking the thread. We will create a new sticky notice very soon warning people about illegal eBooks. This will be a generic warning, as this one was intended to be.