Barnes And Noble Just Took Your eBooks Away From You

[Ed Hansberry]

We've received several emails from Barnes &amp; Noble eBook customers with the following note: <br />Dear eBook Customer,<br /><br />As of September 9, 2003, Barnes &amp; Noble.com will no longer sell eBooks.<br /><br />If you are a Microsoft Reader customer, you will be able to download your eBooks for the next 90 days through your Microsoft Library.<br /><br />If you are an Adobe eBook customer and have not yet downloaded your eBook, please remember you have 90 days from your date of purchase to complete the download via the email link you received.<br /><br />After December 9, 2003, eBook titles that have not been downloaded to the appropriate Readers will no longer be accessible.<br /><br />If you have questions related to your past eBook purchases, please send your inquiry to [email protected] &lt;mailto:[email protected]>.<br /><br />As always, we appreciate your patronage, and we regret any inconvenience this may cause you.<br /><br />:evil: If there was <i><b>ever</b></i> an acceptable argument for DRM5 encrypted eBooks, it just died. Let me explain what this means. If you buy a new device, hard reset your current device, do a full ROM upgrade or MS does another MS Reader upgrade that requires you to redownload your eBooks and you purchased them from BN.com, you are out of luck.<br /><br />Long live <a href="http://www.peanutpress.com">Peanut Press!</a> :rock on dude!:

[Rok]

Long live Peanut Press! (http://www.peanutpress.com) :rock on dude!:
Well, since Palmgear just acquired Palm Digital Media, even that might be in question. I hope somebody kicks B&amp;N butt for this. I'd laugh my butt off if they have to file Chapter 11 in a few years because of lack of involvement in the electronic media... Wishful thinkin' though.

Cheers,
Rok

[Steven Cedrone]

If I had purchased any ebooks from B&N, I would demand they give me an unlocked copy of every one of them before discontinuing support...

Steve

[karen]

I could live with someone 'losing' my ebooks IF I paid a significantly reduced cost for those books....like less than paperback.

But publishers seem to think it's OK to charge a premium for a product that has less value than the paper copies. This sort of profiteering is going to kill the ebook business...of course, that's what the publishers really want.

Karen

[Janak Parekh]

Well, since Palmgear just acquired Palm Digital Media, even that might be in question. I hope somebody kicks B&N butt for this. I'd laugh my butt off if they have to file Chapter 11 in a few years because of lack of involvement in the electronic media... Wishful thinkin' though.
The difference is that DRM5 locks per device, while PDM locks by credit card. As long as you keep a copy of that number around, the ebook, and the program, you can unlock your ebook.

--janak

[Steven Cedrone]

The difference is that DRM5 locks per device, while PDM locks by credit card. As long as you keep a copy of that number around, the ebook, and the program, you can unlock your ebook.

--janak

And, if need be, you can change the card number as well...

Steve

[dh]

I have a number of eBooks that I have purchased in .lit format from bn.com.

I'm glad I spent the time to convert them into Mobipocket format so that I am going to be able to read them in the future.

Any MS Reader books I obtain, whether purchased ones or the free MS ones, are downloaded and converted right away.

This way, I don't have to worry about things such as this BN fiasco and I also don't have to have my RAM taken up with the Reader upgrade. The version that comes in ROM still works just fine for public domain books.

As someone mentioned in one of the other threads on this topic, let's hope that BN are not starting a trend so we see others pull out as well.

This sort of profiteering is going to kill the ebook business...of course, that's what the publishers really want
Looks as though they are doing a pretty good job so far. :(

[marlof]

Long live Peanut Press! (http://www.peanutpress.com) :rock on dude!:
Well, since Palmgear just acquired Palm Digital Media, even that might be in question.

AFAIK there is absolutely no indication that the Pocket PC version of the Palm Reader will not be further developed. I have tons of confidence in the people behind this program.

[Bob Anderson]

I, personally, haven't bought any e-books...

DRM is the reason why... In one sense it's good to see BN get out of e-books because it's starting to show that the economic model to support the way this is being distributed today doesn't work. It's bad, because all of the people that bought those books now are, as illustrated, out in the cold.

I hope this story gets a lot of heat in the news media... this is exactly the kind of saga that the avg. digital consumer needs to hear about before buying "electronic" versions of music, books, you name it.

I'm furious... and I'm not even a victim!

[Dom]

That is disgraceful customer service. They could at least keep a server or whatever going for those that have purchased books already.
Dom

[Jaap van Ees]

As of today my patronage with Barnes and Noble ends. I will no longer buy any books from Barnes and Noble. No ebooks or any other book. Not even a newspaper. I will never again set foot into a B&N store. From now on I will buy my books with businesses that do not leave its customers like B&N does now. I hope this causes you much inconvenience. You have 90 days from now to change your mind!
:devilboy:

[gorkon280]

redownload your eBooks and you purchased them from BN.com, you are out of luck.

Long live Peanut Press! (http://www.peanutpress.com) :rock on dude!:


I have bought books from B&amp;N.....I have NEVER had to redownload because of getting a new device. I just had to enroll the new PPC. I have never had issues with MS Reader doing this. I WILL make sure to redownload the file and BURN IT before I forget. That said, I hate to see this happen but because of the limited selection, theyu just were not selling. If they had more books it would have had a chance. With the limited selection, it just was not going to happen. Besides, with eBooks, they can't rape you for shipping! :D

My problem with eBooks is they NEVER have the one you'd LOVE to have in a eBook format in a eBook format. I would LOVE to have every technical book I need in a eBook format so I can HAVE IT when I get that call at 3 am.

[gorkon280]

As of today my patronage with Barnes and Noble ends. I will no longer buy any books from Barnes and Noble. No ebooks or any other book. Not even a newspaper. I will never again set foot into a B&N store. From now on I will buy my books with businesses that do not leave its customers like B&N does now. I hope this causes you much inconvenience. You have 90 days from now to change your mind!
:devilboy:

They are not leaving you. Again, I have never had much of a problem moving MSReader eBooks from one device to another so long as the passport account matched and I was not over the limit of devices. Still have teh same exact file I downloaded when I bought it. Abandoning B&N just because of this does not seem though as it would be worthwhile or worth it. There are too many good things that just may be missed.

[Citezein]

If you buy a new device, hard reset your current device, do a full ROM upgrade or MS does another MS Reader upgrade that requires you to redownload your eBooks and you purchased them from BN.com, you are out of luck.

Is this accurate? For me, I have my ebooks on my current desktop pc, which is activated with my passport account. I also have them on my pda, which is also activated by my passport account. Assuming I have the copies of the ebooks on my desktop, it shouldn't matter if I get a new PocketPC or not, will it? I can always activate the PPC with my passport and copy the ebooks onto it. Am I wrong about this?

The only thing we need to be concerned about is the (still) lack of ability to deactivate a device and activate a new one. I have read that Microsoft will add this feature in the future. Otherwise, DRM5 books are not worth buying at all. I really wouldn't mind paying >$10 if I knew I could always use it on any of my future computers/pdas. Otherwise, these books need to be very cheap ($5 or less) before I will buy them. The thought of having a book I purchased locked out is ridiculous.

One place where even DRM5 books have an advantage is in speed. I recently flew from DC to CA and realized the night before my trip that I didn't have any reading material. I saw The Da Vinci Code at powells.com for less than $10. I bought it and within minutes it was on my PPC. The convenience and price were ok. I would love to know that in the future though, that I would be able to continue reading this book.

Microsoft should really follow's Apple's DRM model, where any three Macs/iPods can be active at a time, and future compatability is assured. I feel that is totally acceptable for DRM books. I may check out MobiPocket as well now.

[Jerry Raia]

That is disgraceful customer service. They could at least keep a server or whatever going for those that have purchased books already.
Dom

Customer service is practically extinct. It isnt just B&N.

[Paragon]

Crud!

Not because I'm a big user on MS Reader (more crud) but becuase I find it very disheartening. Here we all are trying to promote the use of ebooks and one of the major suppliers of mainstream ebooks decides to discontinue selling them.

Ok fellow babies, I think it's time to really let your favorite authors and publishers know what you want!!!

Dave

[JoeMoon]

The difference is that DRM5 locks per device, while PDM locks by credit card. As long as you keep a copy of that number around, the ebook, and the program, you can unlock your ebook.

--janak

I just had a vision of a paperback book with a strap-lock on it. How ridiculous is it that they can LOCK UP an item you paid to own. Copyrights applied to printed material as well as electronic - you could easily copy a paperback book to sell - why such a security issue around an item that has 1/10th the market potential when compared to a paperback product?

Paranoid executives shoot themselves in the foot when they try to protect themselves from being robbed by those who made them wealthy in the first place.

Joe...

[bjchantry]

I used Peanut Press/Palm Reader with my Palm, when I went to Pocket PC I used MS Reader. Then I hard Reset my Pocket PC and forgot to activate MS Reader, was stuck on the next flight without anything to read. Went back to Palm Reader, have hard reset the device, forgot about it. Go to open a book on my SD card and it wants the purchasing details, 15 seconds, enter my name and my credit card, everybody is happy. LONG LIVE Peanut Press, their selection is good too!!

[Dom]

you could easily copy a paperback book to sell - why such a security issue around an item that has 1/10th the market potential when compared to a paperback product?

Sadly it is infinitely easier to copy a file. If only we were all totally honest and paid for everything then there would be no need for any security :0( I loathe it. But ... some form of rights management is essential. Can't help feeling eBooks were overpriced given that they don't rely on trees, pulp mills, transport costs, printing costs, manual labour costs etc etc. I didn't even get as far as getting my OS2002 MS Reader working :0)
Dom

[ChristopherTD]

With the recent update to MS Reader I didn't have to redownload any books to make it work - just install the update and activate the new copy of Reader.

As long as you look after your downloaded LIT files you should be alright. This is no different than buying downloadable software from a company that later ceases to exist. You can't download it anymore but you can still use it.

I agree that the DRM in Reader is restrictive, but I have activated several PCs and my Pocket PC at the same time without problems. B&N ceasing to supply ebooks doesn't really amount to much.

If MS decided to stop activating or supporting Reader then we could be justified in raising a stink!

[Ed Hansberry]

With the recent update to MS Reader I didn't have to redownload any books to make it work - just install the update and activate the new copy of Reader.

As long as you look after your downloaded LIT files you should be alright.
Good to hear. My personal experience 1.5 years ago was different. I had to hard reset and reactivate but couldn't get the ebook to open. Once I redownload it, all was fine. :?

[MarcTGFG]

dh and others...

how can you convert e books to mobipocket format?

I have bought several Palm Reader e books and read them on my notebook. But I would prefer to read them on my Nokia 7650 but there is only a mobipocket reader available. :-(

[kfluet]

The real tragedy here is that B&N, a huge player in the book industry, has tried the ebook thing in a big way and has given up on it. This does not bode well for the rest of the ebook industry. A company like B&N would likely only stop selling something if it wasn't making them money. Given B&N's volume, if they can't make a profit from eBooks, who can?



The fact that you won't be able to download your B&N books again in the future is annoying, but not a big deal. Burn a copy to CD and take care of it.

If you are really worried about not being able to access your MS Reader DRM5 books in the future (due to upgrades or whatever), you should crack the DRM5 using Convert LIT*** and keep a copy of the HTML files that are generated. This is fair use as long as you don't give the result away to anybody else.

*** Post edited by moderator SJC 9/9/03 17:01 EDT Removed URL

[KpjCoffey]

I'm glad I spent the time to convert them into Mobipocket format so that I am going to be able to read them in the future.

Any MS Reader books I obtain, whether purchased ones or the free MS ones, are downloaded and converted right away.

I would be interested in learing how to convert .lit into .prc for MobiPocket.

I think that MobiPocket 4.7 (http://www.mobipocket.com/en/HomePage/default.asp) is wonderful, with one exception, related to the above discussion: Whenever I have to do a hard reset, which is more often that I care for, I get a new Personal Identification Number (PID) and have to redownload all the books I purchased. (Guess it isn't that different for the problem described above!)

[VanHlebar]

I have stayed away from M$ Reader for this very reason. After I purchased a combo set of The Sword of Shannara and whatever the 2nd book was and then had to hard rest my machine and lost the ability to read the books again, I switched to Palm Reader.

As for price, I don't mind paying paperback pricing for ebooks. I refuse to pay the $20+ that is sometimes asked at PeanutPress.com for the new releases that are still in hardback. However, if you are patient you can usually get those same ebooks at paperback prices within a month or so of the release.

Asking for the ebook sellers to sell these books at less than paperback costs just because there are not "real" overhead is a bit ungrateful. Yes, I understand that they don't rely on distribution, paper, printing etc. However they do still have to have someone that will create the ebook format. Not the sloppy versions that you find on the various download sites around the net, but professionally done books with the proper page breaks, formatting, spelling checked. Not to mention the bandwidth they must pay for if their ebooks site gets any amount of traffic.

I stick with Palm Reader for the reasons already stated. You are tied to your credit card number. Not many people are going to turn this over to most people so it is a fairly efficient DRM model and because it is easy to use, most honest people are willing to use it. My biggest complaint about ebooks is the fact that you can not "lend" them out to friends. With a paperback/hardback after I am done reading the book I can lend it to a friend who might then read it. The publishers surely don't complain about that and they never will. So why the complaint if I want to lend out the same book just in an electronic format. I understand that now there could be "two" copies of the book now, but why can't we come up with some way to mark an ebook at lent out so that the owner can't open the book until it is checked back in? Also, the argument that they just lost a sale doesn't go over well with me, since the person I just lent the book too may not have bought the book in the first place...

But anyway I kinda got off topic.... B&N getting out of the ebook business is not a good thing, but with the popularity of sites such as PeanutPress, Fictionwise and others, there still are plenty of places to get books from with a much better selection.

-Eric

[grobin]

I have stayed away from M$ Reader for this very reason. After I purchased a combo set of The Sword of Shannara and whatever the 2nd book was and then had to hard rest my machine and lost the ability to read the books again, I switched to Palm Reader.

As for price, I don't mind paying paperback pricing for ebooks. I refuse to pay the $20+ that is sometimes asked at PeanutPress.com for the new releases that are still in hardback. However, if you are patient you can usually get those same ebooks at paperback prices within a month or so of the release.

Asking for the ebook sellers to sell these books at less than paperback costs just because there are not "real" overhead is a bit ungrateful. Yes, I understand that they don't rely on distribution, paper, printing etc. However they do still have to have someone that will create the ebook format. Not the sloppy versions that you find on the various download sites around the net, but professionally done books with the proper page breaks, formatting, spelling checked. Not to mention the bandwidth they must pay for if their ebooks site gets any amount of traffic.

I stick with Palm Reader for the reasons already stated. You are tied to your credit card number. Not many people are going to turn this over to most people so it is a fairly efficient DRM model and because it is easy to use, most honest people are willing to use it. My biggest complaint about ebooks is the fact that you can not "lend" them out to friends. With a paperback/hardback after I am done reading the book I can lend it to a friend who might then read it. The publishers surely don't complain about that and they never will. So why the complaint if I want to lend out the same book just in an electronic format. I understand that now there could be "two" copies of the book now, but why can't we come up with some way to mark an ebook at lent out so that the owner can't open the book until it is checked back in? Also, the argument that they just lost a sale doesn't go over well with me, since the person I just lent the book too may not have bought the book in the first place...

But anyway I kinda got off topic.... B&N getting out of the ebook business is not a good thing, but with the popularity of sites such as PeanutPress, Fictionwise and others, there still are plenty of places to get books from with a much better selection.

-Eric

I agree with what you say - especially about the price. I have NO problem paying paperback prices. I really love e-books and my pocket pc so this news does seem BAD to me. I hope it is NOT the begining of the end for e-books -- and I mean ones that you can buy. I know you can get free classics and what all ... BUT I like getting the latest releases electronically and reading them on my PPC -- it perfectly fits my life style and habits.

I do NOT buy regular books any more. If it's NOT in e-book form I don't and won't buy it.

I am going to change readers however. The latest M.S. Reader -- that I was FORCED to update to SUCKS giant pools of canal water. It is slower than the dickens loading the books and has several subtle bugs I have found.

I just really hope this is NOT the beginning of the end for commercial e-books ..... It would be a really black day for me.

:(

[Bill Gunn]

As of today my patronage with Barnes and Noble ends. I will no longer buy any books from Barnes and Noble. No ebooks or any other book. Not even a newspaper. I will never again set foot into a B&N store. From now on I will buy my books with businesses that do not leave its customers like B&N does now. I hope this causes you much inconvenience. You have 90 days from now to change your mind!
:devilboy:

Jeez. Lighten up, Francis. :wink:

[Jonathan1]

*get a warm fuzzy feeling* We love you Peanutpress :ppclove:

Die MS Reader!!! :snipersmile: :twak:

[dean_shan]

*get a warm fuzzy feeling* We love you Peanutpress :ppclove:

Die MS Reader!!! :snipersmile: :twak:

That has been my thought all along. I never bought a MS eBook because of the stupid DRM. I have allways like palm reader better as a format anyway.

[markpmc]

One of the free ebooks of summer was Star Trek SCE: Wildfire Book 1. I decided to buy Book 2. I went straight to fictionwise.com and bought it in PalmReader format.

Why in the world would I want to lock myself into M$ Reader only on the M$ platform? I want a format that I can take with me to my next device. I don't want my library of eBooks to determine my next device.

markpmc

[JvanEkris]

If I had purchased any ebooks from B&N, I would demand they give me an unlocked copy of every one of them before discontinuing support...

SteveIs't there a legal obligation of some kind to keep supporting a product you have bought. I mean: it never said "only usable for a year".

Jaap

[dh]

dh and others...

how can you convert e books to mobipocket format?

I have bought several Palm Reader e books and read them on my notebook. But I would prefer to read them on my Nokia 7650 but there is only a mobipocket reader available. :-(

It's pretty easy to make the conversion. There are two applications you need to download, both of them free.

First is Convert Lit (you'll find it with a Google search). Depending on where you live, using this may not be strictly legal although you are probably OK as long as you are not trying to sell or share the books. Similer deal as when you would rip a CD or DVD. Convert Lit allows you to remove the DRM5 from the .lit file and break the book down to its HTML files.

Next you need Mobipocket Publisher, from www.mobipocket.com
This will recompile the files into the Mobipocket format for you. There is also an option to compile the files into a non secure MS .lit book.

As you noticed already, Mobipocket Reader is available for many operating systems. Using their format means that you can be confident of being able to read the book you paid for, whatever type of device you might own in the future.

[Mona13]

I also only buy e-books, but I use only Palm Reader on my iPAQ. Love it! I quit using MSReader more than a year ago due to re-activation problems.

I have not bought e-books from B & N since I discovered Palm and SimonSchuster. As a rule, at that time, the books were less expensive at other places. By the time I changed to Palm, I only used SimonSchuster for my MS Reader books anyway. Now simonsays.com sells both MSReader and Palm books. And, they have great sales.

[JimDantin]

Regarding Convert Lit, here's a hint:

Assume you have a large number of the DRM-locked .lit files that you bought, or downloaded from Microsoft, in a folder. Place a copy of the Convert Lit executable in that folder. The create a subfolder named "open" (or whatever you wish to name it).

Create a batch file with the following lines:

for %%a in (*.lit) do clit "%%a" "open\%%a"
:end

Run the batch file and you will have an open version of all the books in the "open" folder. Now you don't have to worry about losing access to your books.

Simple enough?

[gorkon280]

Don't get mad at B&N if they stop working. They are locked by passport and not by device. Also, any support would be given by microsoft or the publisher only. Getting mad at B&N would be like getting mad at Best Buy because they chose to not carry X device. That is THEIR decision. Your books will still work...carried mine between 2 PC's and 2 PPC's (not at same time) and never got locked out as long as I was activated. DRM is not as nasty as it seems.

[dh]

Simple enough?

Thanks for that, I'll give it a try. Could have used the hint while I was converting the bulk of my books one by one.

[Jonathan1]

DRM is not as nasty as it seems.

Yep you are right. It isn't. Esp if you are using Palm Reader. Sorry but look at any Pocket PC forum and you invariably have users having activation problems with MS Reader. Do you have problems with Palm Reader? To a certain extent yes but 9 times out of 10 the person isn't following the instructions correctly on how to install an e-book. At least that's my experience when dealing with Palm Reader vs. MS Reader. Its simple. The activation remains in the hands of the consumer not a server up in la la land.

[gorkon280]

Yep you are right. It isn't. Esp if you are using Palm Reader. Sorry but look at any Pocket PC forum and you invariably have users having activation problems with MS Reader.

I do and I have never had an issue and the others...well I don't know. I honestly have not seen much regarding this issue. Maybe they tried it years ago and have not tired it again? I have had to do wacky things to get those free books working, but all I usually have to do is a soft reset. Its weird but I was reading Hitchhikers I got off of Microsoft's web site and it said it could no longer access the book. Qucik soft reset and it was available again. My book I bought from B&N works like a charm every time as long as I am registerd.

Could this be those who try to use the same passport to register/buy multiple books and run them on more then 2 devices? I have never had a problem in 2 PC's and 2 PPC's. Only time I did have an issue getting an activation was once when the server was down.

[sripathi]

If you don't use your hotmail account for a month it will expire. So what happens if the account is expired and you have to reactivate a device/book? Even though I don't want to use hotmail account (lots of junk mails), I am still logging into it once a week to keep it active.

[Marc Zimmermann]

With the recent update to MS Reader I didn't have to redownload any books to make it work - just install the update and activate the new copy of Reader.

As long as you look after your downloaded LIT files you should be alright.
Good to hear. My personal experience 1.5 years ago was different. I had to hard reset and reactivate but couldn't get the ebook to open. Once I redownload it, all was fine. :?

I never had to redownload any DRM'ed Reader eBook, from the earliest copies up to the newest ones. Sounds more like your file got corrupted at some point.

I have backup copies of all my books on CD-R and they keep working with any newer version of Reader as long as it is activated with the same Passport.

I'll consider Palm Reader as soon as their software has borders. I just cannot read with the current layout for extended times.

[Jorgen]

>I want a format that I can take with me to my next device. I don't want my library of eBooks to determine my next device.

Exactly! But this also rules Palm Digital Media out as they only support Palms and PPCs.

Jorgen

[Kaber]

When I buy a paperback, I can pass it along after I have read it.

How could this work with eBooks?

[kfluet]

When I buy a paperback, I can pass it along after I have read it.

How could this work with eBooks?

This is actually a very good question.

If I buy a paperback book, I give it to a friend after I read it. If I buy a copy of Windows XP, use it for a while, and then give it to a friend after deleting ALL of the copies I have, this is perfectly legal.

If I give an e-book to a friend (assume no DRM issues) after deleting ALL of the copies I have, is this legal? I certainly have no moral issues with this scenario.

[ChristopherTD]

When I buy a paperback, I can pass it along after I have read it.

How could this work with eBooks?

If it is a MS Reader secure ebook you can't give it away because it is tied to your Passport.

If you have non-secure titles you can just give the file to someone else. It is up to you whether you delete your copy, or just promise to not read it while they are reading it!

The comparison with paper books is not 100% valid because there can only ever be one copy of the paper book at a time - if I give or lend it I no longer have it. Harder to enforce with ebooks!

[Jorgen]

When I buy a paperback, I can pass it along after I have read it.

How could this work with eBooks?

Easy: Your books are stored with your bookseller and you check it out. Your friends can do the same but need a permission from you. The book has to be returned or time out (in case of PPC crash) before it can be checked out again.

This scheme would also work for your local library.

Jorgen

[bjornkeizers]

See, this is *exactly* the kind of crap that makes people pirate stuff.

I never bought, and never will buy, any books with any form of DRM whatsoever. I much prefer to download copys off IRC and make them myself... and can you blame me? What would you do when you heard this kind of announcement?

There are people who bought maybe a dozen books at BN, and now they're totally worthless if they ever change devices. Great customer service guys! :roll:

[ChristopherTD]

There are people who bought maybe a dozen books at BN, and now they're totally worthless if they ever change devices. Great customer service guys! :roll:

But they aren't worthless or damaged in any way. When you change devices you activate Reader on the new device and read your existing books. B&N don't enter the equation unless you have lost the files (which is a hazard that could apply to any downloaded software, continued existence of the vendor is not guaranteed)

There are other arguments for and against DRM but the continued presence of B&N is a bit of a red herring.

[Ed Hansberry]

>I want a format that I can take with me to my next device. I don't want my library of eBooks to determine my next device.

Exactly! But this also rules Palm Digital Media out as they only support Palms and PPCs.
And Windows and mac desktops...

[gorkon280]

See, this is *exactly* the kind of crap that makes people pirate stuff.

I never bought, and never will buy, any books with any form of DRM whatsoever. I much prefer to download copys off IRC and make them myself... and can you blame me? What would you do when you heard this kind of announcement?

There are people who bought maybe a dozen books at BN, and now they're totally worthless if they ever change devices. Great customer service guys! :roll:


To an extent I agree with you on this matter. Passing books around like you can do with a paper copy is hard with the digital mode. But that's really the only downside. Although, how hard would it be to establish a hotmail account that's used by your circle of friends just so you can swap ebooks around? Granted, the circle can only be like 2 friends (yourself and your friend), but you could do it. Also, if the digital forms were like only a buck or so, then why would anyone want to trade books when they could just buy it? 5 is a fair price, but I think they'd sell more if they'd make it 1 dollar or cheaper. Also, could they not put a digital copy of the book in the paperback? That way you can read the digi book and give the paper one out.

[gorkon280]

There are people who bought maybe a dozen books at BN, and now they're totally worthless if they ever change devices. Great customer service guys! :roll:

But they aren't worthless or damaged in any way. When you change devices you activate Reader on the new device and read your existing books. B&N don't enter the equation unless you have lost the files (which is a hazard that could apply to any downloaded software, continued existence of the vendor is not guaranteed)

There are other arguments for and against DRM but the continued presence of B&N is a bit of a red herring.

You and I are the only ones who get this. Basically, you just have to activate the new device with the same passport and thats it. I have had no activation issues where others seem to be reporting lots of them. Maybe cuz I don't have the software loaded on my desktop and my laptop? I only load it on my pda and thats it.

[Jorgen]

>I want a format that I can take with me to my next device. I don't want my library of eBooks to determine my next device.

Exactly! But this also rules Palm Digital Media out as they only support Palms and PPCs.
And Windows and mac desktops...

Ah, I stand corrected. What I meant was that one could easily be tempted to one day buy a Linux PDA (Sharp has a lovely one) or a Symbian phone.

Jorgen

[markpmc]

Ah, I stand corrected. What I meant was that one could easily be tempted to one day buy a Linux PDA (Sharp has a lovely one) or a Symbian phone.

Jorgen

Jorgen,

I did assume that you were a Symbian guy when you pointed out that Palmreader only supports PPC and Palm OS. Sorry but I can't afford a SE P800. It's a bit pricy for me :D If you're "InfoSync Jorgen" how about loaning me one ?

I can afford Palm and PPC devices so these are my choices. On the Sharp PDA you forgot to mention that Sharp has withdrawn from the retail market and the cool C700 series is an Asia only model.

My next PDA will be either the new T-Mobile MDA or the Treo 600. My PalmReader books will work fine on these!

markpmc

[GadgetMan]

Ah, I stand corrected. What I meant was that one could easily be tempted to one day buy a Linux PDA (Sharp has a lovely one) or a Symbian phone.

And who said that Peanutpress could not one day release Palm Reader for Linux or Symbian :?:

[sprawlgeek]

The key to this issue, in any perspective is to support Fictionwise. If you believe in the concept of Ebooks and/or the ebook future, Fictionwise, dedicated to the cause of ebooks needs to be supported with our checkbooks. The big boys don't care about the vision, just the P/L statement. Fictionwise is a business dedicated to vision of ebooks.

sprawlgeek

[dh]

My next PDA will be either the new T-Mobile MDA or the Treo 600. My PalmReader books will work fine on these!
I have also been thinking that the Treo 600 might be the way to go.

One problem with it, other than Palm OS, is the 160 x 160 pixel screen. I wonder how it will be trying to read small characters for any length of time.

I also would be reluctant to give up my CF slot. All my music and books are currently very happy on my 1GB card.

The key to this issue, in any perspective is to support Fictionwise. If you believe in the concept of Ebooks and/or the ebook future, Fictionwise, dedicated to the cause of ebooks needs to be supported with our checkbooks. The big boys don't care about the vision, just the P/L statement. Fictionwise is a business dedicated to vision of ebooks.
I agree 100%. I intend to make Fictionwise my first choice for eBooks and would encourage everyone in the community to do so as well.

[Jorgen]

>I did assume that you were a Symbian guy

In the old days, yes. I have been using organisers since mid-1980ies and bought my fair share of PDAs in the 1990ies, including several Psion's II to 5mx, hp-200lx (MS-DOS and still working fine), many Palm's up to Tungsten T, hp-548, hp-568 and h1910 (current darling). This trend should indicate that I am likely to use something different 5-10 years from now. Once Sharp lower the price on the SL-C700 family (http://members.rogers.com/e46m3/zaurus/), I am likely to buy one.

My point is: I have nearly 2000 pbooks, some of which are 30-40 years old (I matriculated in 1967) and with the current prices on ebooks, I will expect them to last even longer (though I will not): I want to be able to buy whatever PDA I feel like and read my ebooks on them without having to rely on that PeanutPress *may* some day write a reader for my chosen platform.

If I have to accept limitations of any kind, I will pay no more than £1-2 per book. For my money, I will stick to FictionWise's multiformat books. Good luck to the rest of you when the facts of life one day catch up with you.

Jorgen

[markpmc]

I have also been thinking that the Treo 600 might be the way to go.

One problem with it, other than Palm OS, is the 160 x 160 pixel screen. I wonder how it will be trying to read small characters for any length of time.

I also would be reluctant to give up my CF slot. All my music and books are currently very happy on my 1GB card.

I also have some reservations about the low res screen. I'm not sure that CF slots have a place on a smart phone device. I'm excited by the possibility of using a SDIO WiFi card in the Treo. Best of both worlds (assuming I can live w/ the 32 MB RAM).

Of course the above comments also apply to the MDA2. If it supports SDIO then it's a contender.

The key to this issue, in any perspective is to support Fictionwise.

Bought my first book from them this week. Don't intend to shop anywhere else!

markpmc

[Jorgen]

For those of you who has MS DRM5 books: Back up the following files from \Windows on the PPC to a CD:

Microsoft Activation.Unload
Secrep.dat
Secrep.dll
Secrep.xml
Secrepid.dat

After a hard reset or after buying a new PPC, you should only have to copy these into \windows to be re-activated. When I bought me 1910 a few weeks back, I took the above files from my 568. I have not tested it with any DRM5 books as I don't have any but MS Reader claims to be activated.

Jorgen

[bjornkeizers]

You and I are the only ones who get this. Basically, you just have to activate the new device with the same passport and thats it.


But there's only a limited number of activations right? And what if you lost that passport data or changed email addresses etc etc. Plus, you still can't borrow or lend books, and since they're tied to your device, how does this work with multiple devices?


I have had no activation issues where others seem to be reporting lots of them. Maybe cuz I don't have the software loaded on my desktop and my laptop? I only load it on my pda and thats it.

See? Activation isn't a flawless process. Things can get screwed up; and besides, why do we have to jump through all these hoops? Isn't there an easier and fairer way to regulate the flow of books then by these harsh encryption schemes?

[RedRamage]

Sadly it is infinitely easier to copy a file. If only we were all totally honest and paid for everything then there would be no need for any security :0( I loathe it. But ... some form of rights management is essential.
Not true. Baen books (www.baen.com) has been successfully selling ebooks for a number of years now without any DRM at all, not even low level DRM. You don't even need to use cLit to convert you .LIT books to an open format because they provide about 5 different versions for you to download in...even HTML.

[RedRamage]

The real tragedy here is that B&N, a huge player in the book industry, has tried the ebook thing in a big way and has given up on it. This does not bode well for the rest of the ebook industry. A company like B&N would likely only stop selling something if it wasn't making them money. Given B&N's volume, if they can't make a profit from eBooks, who can?
I think the failure has as much to do with the draconian rules imposed by publishers (High DRM, High Price) as anything else. There are companies (such as Baen) which have successfully sold ebooks for a while now.
If you are really worried about not being able to access your MS Reader DRM5 books in the future (due to upgrades or whatever), you should crack the DRM5 using Convert LIT and keep a copy of the HTML files that are generated. This is fair use as long as you don't give the result away to anybody else.
If I'm not mistaken, it is a violation of the DMCA (or whatever that stupid law is) which states that any attempt to circumvent digital copyright protection is illegal. It makes no distinction about fair use or not.

[dh]

Sadly it is infinitely easier to copy a file. If only we were all totally honest and paid for everything then there would be no need for any security :0( I loathe it. But ... some form of rights management is essential.
Not true. Baen books (www.baen.com) has been successfully selling ebooks for a number of years now without any DRM at all, not even low level DRM. You don't even need to use cLit to convert you .LIT books to an open format because they provide about 5 different versions for you to download in...even HTML.

I believe that most people would be happy to pay a fair price for eBooks so I agree with your point.

Although I have converted my .lit books to other formats, these have all been books I either had purchased or the MS free ones. The only exceptions have been one or two books I could not find in official published versions that I had to aquire elsewhere. These I would have paid for had they been available and I already owned the print versions.

I certainly hope that the media producing companies, whether it be books, music or video, do come to terms with digital technology at some point. Their stoneage methods are preventing them from being successful in taking advantage of the opportunities that exist today.

[RedRamage]

You and I are the only ones who get this. Basically, you just have to activate the new device with the same passport and thats it. I have had no activation issues where others seem to be reporting lots of them. Maybe cuz I don't have the software loaded on my desktop and my laptop? I only load it on my pda and thats it.
Here's my problem with high DRM... Why should I need to register and activate my device to access reading material I have purchased?

Let's take a bit of an absurd example. Let's say that a book publisher really started to fear that their paper books were getting handed around too much, so they developed special ink that required special lights...all tuned to a seperate frequency inorder to iluminate the text. Use a standard light and you don't see the text, use the special light and you can read it fine.

Now, when you buy their books you need to regsiter what light frequency you have with them, then they send you a copy of the book with the ink specially encoded. If your light breaks, you can "reactivate" the book by sending in your new frequency and requesting a new copy of the book from the store you bought the book from. The store, of course, keeps all your records so they have proof that you paid for the book.

First of all, would anyone stand for that kind of treatment? Not likely. Now what happens with the store that kept all your records goes out of business, or decides to stop supporting the books? It just introduces even a Bigger hassle... more hopes for you to need to jump through to get access to what you legally own.

I don't want to the hassle. I want to be able to pickup that ebook I purchased 5 years ago and read on my Visor originally to work, without a second thought, on my third PPC. For that reason I don't by DRM books. I do buy lots of ebooks, just not ones with DRM of any kind.

[Jason Dunn]

Well said RedRamage! I'm with you 100% - the current DRM model ties the DRM to the HARDWARE, where what we really need is to tie it to the PERSON and make it easy to transfer ownership rights.

[corphack]

This is precisly why clit.exe was written: to permit people to move legitimate copies of their purchased ebooks to new hardware without requiring continued vendor dependecy.

[dh]

This is precisly why clit.exe was written: to permit people to move legitimate copies of their purchased ebooks to new hardware without requiring continued vendor dependecy.
I agree, but I think most readers don't want to bugger about with all this, they want to buy their book, download it and read it.

Convert Lit is also a problem because of having to remember how to use the old DOS commands. Someone should make a Windows version.

I'm sure you will find that Jason and the others on the team feel unable to really comment on Convert Lit, which probably isn't Microsoft's favorite application. I bet some of them use it though. :D

Publishers should have the ability to prevent unauthorised use of their work. There just has to be a better way that makes it easier for the customers. Just look in the forums here as to how many experienced users have had trouble downloading the MS books. Heck, if people in the PPCT community can't get it done, the average user has no chance.

No wonder BN couldn't make it work.

[corphack]

Convert Lit is also a problem because of having to remember how to use the old DOS commands. Someone should make a Windows version.

I guess I'm too old: I'm constantly trying to forget the DOS command-set :wink:

While I can understand the distastefull aspects of Convert Lit for Microsoft, "officially" it is only intended for use by legitimate book owners. Any other use is shamefull (and, yes I have no illegitimatly obtained DRM-encrypted ebooks - I was raised to believe that it is a privalege of adulthood to be able to pay for the things one wants, and a goal to pay as little as possible for said wants..).

Microsoft created a niche demand for a program like Convert Lit, and B&N just legitimized its creation. If MS wants to stop its proliferation, then they need to eliminate the need for such programs' existence. MS has to develop a methodology for legitimate book owners to transfer their legitimately aquired books to new equipment without maintaining dependencies upon third party systems; its not difficult to envision what this process would entail, MS just doesn't have a justifiable way to make a profit from the effort.

[PetiteFlower]

I was raised to believe that it is a privalege of adulthood to be able to pay for the things one wants

Ah, but I think one has to BE an adult to realize this particular truth :) And there are a lot of children of various ages running around the internet....

However, I still won't us MS reader. If I see a free ebook that I like, I'll get it and learn how to convert it. But I'm doing well with Palm Reader for now!

[RedRamage]

Hopefully someone who is well versed in this sort of info can clarify this, but I believe that the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyrights Act) makes it illegal to circumvent copy protect build into any type of digitial media. It also makes it illegal to own a piece of equipment (be it software or hardare) designed to break this copy protection.

Now, ethically--morally I think one could say that breaking the copy protection for "fair use" is okay, but I don't know for sure about the legality of this. Does "fair use" supercede the DMCA? The act does not, I believe, make any mention of the fact that it would be okay to break the protection for fair use.

Frankly, I have no problem breaking a DRM 5 book so that you can have the original HTML as long as your intention is not to share it illegally. But I don't want people to be under the possibly false assumption that it's legally okay to have convertLit and broken DRM books on their harddrive as long as they are not sharing the books. It, quite possibly, is NOT okay, legally speaking, to have those things.

[dh]

The type of media seems to determine whether or not something can be copied for fair use.
Audio files certainly can be legally copied, video files cannot. I'm not sure what the situation is with books.
Personally, I don't see a problem with starting off with a file and finishing with a modified version of it. Assuming that the file isn't sold or shared online nothing is stolen, indeed the publisher gains a sale. I wouldn't buy a DRM5 book without having the ability to be able to read it using the reader and device of my choice.

[kfluet]

... But I don't want people to be under the possibly false assumption that it's legally okay to have convertLit and broken DRM books on their harddrive as long as they are not sharing the books. It, quite possibly, is NOT okay, legally speaking, to have those things.

Yes, I suspect that for people in the United States the DMCA probably makes having a copy of Convert Lit illegal. Thankfully, I don't live there.

Does the DCMA really make even posession of cracked .lit files illegal if you own the original files? In other words, what if you purchased the eBook and then downloaded cracked files from somewhere else?

[dh]

There is a lot of information on the US Copyright Office website on the matter of the DMCA. Several letters posted on the site seem to sum it up rather well. As some writers say, all the things that the new law attempted to prevent are already covered by existing laws and there was no need for a new one, other than the greed of the recording industry and their slimy lobbiests. (OK, I made up that last bit).

It seems that there are already lawsuits in the works covering the fact that DVD players crack the encription on a DVD (duh!) so are not in compliance. Also, whenever a DMS file is opened on a computer a copy is created in RAM which is a bit naughty as well. If you buy an eBook then have the nerve to actually read it, you might well be in breach of the law. You better check the coast is clear before trying to open that Bill Bryson book you downloaded. (Assuming you were one of the elite few who manged to upgrade MS Reader, activate it, try to download a book, discover you also need MS Reader on your desktop, try to activate that, make a new passport 'cos you've run out of activations, activate again, download the book, track down where on earth it went to on your PC and then transfer it to your PPC of course :lol: ). It's a good job MS Reader is simple to use or some people might get discouraged and companies like Barnes and Noble would not make lots of money selling eBooks. Oh, they're not? I wonder why?

Do a search for dmca at www.copyright.gov. Plenty of entertainment there.

[ctmagnus]

If you don't use your hotmail account for a month it will expire. So what happens if the account is expired and you have to reactivate a device/book? Even though I don't want to use hotmail account (lots of junk mails), I am still logging into it once a week to keep it active.

I used a non-Hotmail account for my passport registration to evade the 30 day timeout.

[ctmagnus]

Ah, I stand corrected. What I meant was that one could easily be tempted to one day buy a Linux PDA (Sharp has a lovely one)

Have you tried one though? On the exact same hardware, Linux (Familiar 0.7.1 to be exact) runs _much_ slower than Pocket PC 2002. Boot times after a soft-reset are getting up into desktop land. Or that's my experience. ymmv.

[ctmagnus]

Convert Lit is also a problem because of having to remember how to use the old DOS commands. Someone should make a Windows version.

Or you can copy and paste the text here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=160676#160676) and have a nice one-click solution whenever you want to read your DRM5 books in a non-DRM5 program.

[qmrq]

This sort of profiteering is going to kill the ebook business...of course, that's what the publishers really want.
It's not going to stop people from making their own ebooks and trading them illegally. :(

[Jorgen]

Ah, I stand corrected. What I meant was that one could easily be tempted to one day buy a Linux PDA (Sharp has a lovely one)

Have you tried one though? On the exact same hardware, Linux (Familiar 0.7.1 to be exact) runs _much_ slower than Pocket PC 2002. Boot times after a soft-reset are getting up into desktop land. Or that's my experience. ymmv.

I am thinking ahead - I want to have the freedom to buy whatever hardware I fancy 5-10 years from now and read my ebooks. Knowing that one has a particular book and not be able to read it must be awful!

But it is good to hear that the Sharp is slow; I can now stop tossing back and forth at night, unable to sleep because of the frustration of not having one of those machines. :)

Jorgen

[Jorgen]

The big question is whether publishers need to worry so much about the breaches of DRM schemes. I wonder how big the problem really is.

1. Only relatively few people will for one reason or other run programs like Convert LIT.

2. A quick look at the usenet forums show that probably any book you can think of has been scanned and is available on usenet. People will argue: if I will be punished for using CLIT, I may as well download from usenet instead and save my money. Again, relatively few people will be downloading from usenet and many of those who do will be teenagers who collect for the sake of collecting/showing off and therefore are not prospective buyers of ebooks. A number of other books will be old and not be published as ebooks anyway.

In this respect, I remember that Pendergast from FictionWise recently stated that the books on usenet were scanned and only few were born as ebooks. In other words, ebook buyers in general don't spread their ebooks much.

My advice to the publishers is to forget the DRM schemes and lower their prices so much that nobody would bother scanning+proofreading or steal ebooks.

Jorgen

[pgray007]

I have a quick comment and a question on this topic.

First, the question:

Which reader are most folks using, and how easy is it to get content, and get it converted, etc. I looked at the palm reader on peanut press, but I'm a little "gun shy" on going with what looks like such a palm-centric solution. Like many on this forum, I want something I can use now and well into the future. I also read more "classic" titles and reference books, rather than the latest Stephen King "literature," so that would be a consideration as well.

Now the comment:

I think all this DRM and DMCA are going to mark the beginning of the end of US technological innovation. I recently heard a comment on the radio that over the last 20 years, many of the biggest technological innovations came from some guy or gal sitting in a college dorm at a US university. With increasingly tightening laws, the next innovation will come from a similar guy or gal, but they will be sitting in Southeast Asia or China.

Regargless of the "moral" or legal questions regardging someting like Napster, it was a single young person that arguably changed an entire industry. I personally think it was just the wake up call the industry needed, although I'm sure RIAA would disagree.

Now if you consider something so critical to the internet as the WWW, but question what would happen with today's DRM and file sharing laws, one wonders if an "open document sharing protocol" would be stifled with lawsuits before it could even get off the ground.

It's a little sad to see this starting to happen, but I guess we were all lucky to experience the "wild west" days of computing.

[Jorgen]

I mainly use the iSilo reader on either a Palm or a PPC. I have written a program that can format text from various formats to one-line-per-paragraph format and then format it using an old commandline isilo conversion program. I make many from Project Gutenberg.

Jorgen

[dena222]

You guys may be missing something... I don't like MS implementation of "activation" at all, and MOST of my ebooks are Palm Reader, since it's a better system AND better Reader. But the idea of books being attached to hardware is not exactly true. I can download a DRM5 book on any activated computer (or device) and read it on any activated computer (or device). I haven't re-downloaded anything for years, but all my content still works, and I've shifted computers at least 4 times, and Pocket PC's even more (thanks to Casio). It's tied to the ACTIVATION, and THAT is my gripe. Even when you are supposed to be able to re-activate the same device countless times, it never seems to see my computers as the same device --- even the notebooks, which have relatively static hardware configurations! If it worked FLAWLESSLY, and you could have 8 devices at any one time, and deactivate devices you are not using to add other devices, I wouldn't care as much. I do as much for my Audible content, which only allows THREE mobile devices and two desktops, but if I want to switch devices, I deactivate an old one and immediately activate another. My worries with MS DRM5 is that it assumes that your passport info will never become compromised, which is ridiculous in this day of rampant ID theft. No fewer than three credit cards have gone down that way, but my Palm books were more easily converted to a new ID, simply by buying another book and changing my book keys to that card.

But NONE are as easy as unencrypted content, we may as well get used to it. If there are people going to abuse trust, there are going to be more ways to thwart them, and those of us who are trustworthy must also pay the price.

ddpinkard

[Mobipocket]

I would be interested in learing how to convert .lit into .prc for MobiPocket.

I think that MobiPocket 4.7 (http://www.mobipocket.com/en/HomePage/default.asp) is wonderful, with one exception, related to the above discussion: Whenever I have to do a hard reset, which is more often that I care for, I get a new Personal Identification Number (PID) and have to redownload all the books I purchased. (Guess it isn't that different for the problem described above!)

The Personal ID is taken from the PDA serial number given by the manufacturer. IE, if the PID changes, it means that the hardware manufacturer did not implement the serial number as it was described in Microsoft Windows (CE/PocketPC/Mobile) specificiations.

A lot of PDAs keep their PID even after a hard reset.

[Mobipocket]

That's exactely what we think:
1/ people read eBooks on their PDAs, not on PC
2/ they may change their PDA in the future (new features, price considerations, new hardware, wireless, ...). They need to be able to read their eBooks whatever the new PDA is.

But, as publishers require a DRM system, we lock eBooks with the device identifier and you can update it in your account at any time.

...
As you noticed already, Mobipocket Reader is available for many operating systems. Using their format means that you can be confident of being able to read the book you paid for, whatever type of device you might own in the future.

[Mobipocket]

The comparison with paper books is not 100% valid because there can only ever be one copy of the paper book at a time - if I give or lend it I no longer have it. Harder to enforce with ebooks!

That's why Electronic Libaries may be interested in eBooks. They can keep the copy concept in their electronic system (no more than X check-outs at a given time), or not.
They may also provide a lending system to persons that may not be able to go to the Library in the street.

First experiments give very interesting results (who goes to the library ?, new readers/paper book readers ?, ...)