Symbian Exec Says "The PDA is Dead"

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3080652.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3080652.stm</a><br /><br /></div>Here's a strong statement for you:<br /><br />"Gadget lovers could find that their mobile phone fulfils all their needs in the very near future. So says David Levin, head of phone software firm Symbian, reviewing the firm's future prospects. He said the falling cost of putting extras, such as cameras, into handsets would mean big changes for the consumer electronics market. But, he added, it would take time for consumers to start using all the features in their increasingly smart phones and perhaps longer for operators to work out ways to generate significant amounts of cash from new services."<br /><br />There's some solid logic behind his statement, so be sure to read the whole article, then come back here and comment. Is he right? Will PDAs be replaced by smarter mobile phones? I have my own opinion on this, but I'm very interested in knowing what everyone here thinks. What would your mobile phone have to become in order for you to only use it? Conversely, what sorts of things will the Pocket PC have to do in order to remain a viable option as phones start to do more?

[donkthemagicllama]

Screen size is the only thing stopping me from solely using a smart phone...

I like to be able to read e-books and watch videos on a decent sized screen.

Someone else (can't remember who now) summed it up for me.

I don't want a smart phone, I want a small, dumb phone with bluetooth and a minimal screen.

[Ed Hansberry]

Semantics. The P800 is a PDA/phone device. Yes, the disconnected PDA is dying but there will always be a need for a device that has a usable screen. I would imagine a device the size of the 1900 iPAQ with built in cell capabilities and a flip out tactile feel keyboard (numeric at least) will be available in a year or so. That would be a killer device. Small enough to really use as a phone without holding up an iPAQ 3600 device to your face but large enough to have a data-centric screen.

[Jacob]

I think this will lead to a smaller market for the PocketPC, but it won't necessarily eliminate them.

People like donkthemagicllama who use their PPC for things like reading and watching videos won't use it, however as the functionalities of the two overlap the smaller size of the smart phone will start to be a bigger factor for many.

[caywen]

There will always be 2 types of consumers: Those that are data oriented and those that are voice oriented.

The data oriented ones will always go for the PDA. The future is both in connected devices and separate phone/pda combos.

For me, I like the idea of having a real slim, powerful PDA like the 1940 and having it talk to a tiny phone (Siemens SX56) via bluetooth.

Of course, the reality of bluetooth is a bit sad at the moment. It's nowhere near seamless. I need to be able to establish a dialup network connection on my PDA by only tapping an icon representing the phone in my pocket. Bluetooth should always be on - there shouldn't be an option to turn it off. To conserve battery life, it needs to become more efficient.

The combo doesn't work for many people because it means a bulkier device. I'd rather have two tiny devices that slip easily into different pockets than one big device that bulges.

Also, I'd like to not have to heft a bigger device when just chatting with a friend. Holding an MM02 device to my hear feels awkward.

Once they can get bluetooth to "just work" and actually have a real Zero configuration experience, then the PDA/phone combo will really take off.

[dh]

I would replace my Axim with a "Smartphone" right now if it could meet the following specs:

Be no larger than a T68i
Have a transflective screen of at least 3.5 inches, ideally 3.8 inches
Run a full version of Windows Mobile
Have dual expansion slots, one SDIO and one CF
Have a 400MHz processor (minimum)
Ideally 128 MB of RAM with a seperate memory for storing programs.
BT and 802.11b (or g) built in.

Hmmm, looks like this is describing a cellphone and X7 or 4100 combo. :D

[Ed Hansberry]

I would replace my Axim with a "Smartphone" right now if it could meet the following specs:

Be no larger than a T68i
Have a transflective screen of at least 3.5 inches, ideally 3.8 inches
Not sure about the physics of your universe, but here, a phone that is barely 2 inches wide can't take a 3.5/3.8 inch screen.

[caywen]

I'd trade in my pile of crap for an integrated device that:

1. Was the size of an iPaq 19XX
2. Has 8 hour minimum battery life (16 hour conservative use)
3. Has an SDIO slot for expansion and bluetooth

That's it!

[Rok]

All these predictions about something dying are just an overblown journalist-style sensationalism. Here's what will happen (in the near future):

Smartphones' sales numbers will continue to rise, in no small ammount thanks to newer, better, more sophisticated models. And, just like Ed said, it's largely a matter of semantics. P800 is a PDA in many ways; it's a phone in only one way.

Is this going to affect PDA sales? To a certain degree to be sure. And yet there will always be enough consumers demanding larger screens than Smartphones will provide, thus making sure PDA market will stay alive. Don't get cocky - it's a niche market now, and it's going to stay that way.

Tell you what I want: something the size of my 3970 (perhaps a bit thinner), with full GSM phone functionality that can be used with BT handsfree set. And a dumb, small (not too small!), BT enabled phone for times when I don't need to carry PDA around (like beer time with friends!). And if somebody elects to call that PDA a Smartphone, I sincerely couldn't care less. :twisted:

Just my $.02

Cheers,
Rok

[Jimmy Dodd]

Semantics.

I agree. Why is it that adding phone capabilities to a PDA makes it a "smart phone," while a adding some PDA capabilities to a phone makes it a "smart phone" also? Should the defining characteristic be the inclusion of a phone? I would think not, but Mr. Levin , being from Symbian, obviously does. :roll:

[sub_tex]

Just to add my agreement with what most of you have already said here, I think when people (not those of us who read forums like this) talk about "PDA"s they are talking about PIM information on the go.

As smartphones continue to integrate that sort of thing seemlessly there will plenty of people who have no need for a Palm Zire, which, is basically what most casual users need.

Once you get into web browsing and data entry/manipulation, and video, no smartphone can compare with a PDA that has a 320x480 screen.

There's just not enough room in a phone to allow it to do all things well. But for a vast majority of people, a smartphone will let them do everything a classic Palm III could do without having to make them carry a second device.

In that way, sure, smartphones will win over PDAs.

But try writing your novel on a smartphone. Or viewing a massive spreadsheet. Or viewing videos at a normal size.

[surur]

He asked why anyone would opt for an expensive, bulky handheld computer when smartphones like the SonyEricsson P800 were now available for about £200.


Of course the P800 *is* expensive and bulky. I think the stand-alone PDA will be dead in a few years, thanks to the falling cost of intergrating GSM circuitry. But just because it can make phone calls, I would not automatically call it a smartphone. There are PDA's with digi-cams, are these SmartCamerasTM. And because my PDA can play MP3's is it now a SmartWalkmanTM? I think the defining feature of my devices are the the powerfully processors, and in fact they are becoming expandable, general purpose computers.

So, in fact, of course PDA's are dead, and were when the last palm V rolled of the production line. Since then PocketPC's have been on the ascent, and whether you use them to play games, make telephone calls, take pictures or listen to music, the main part is the computer part, which is why MS got it right. I think symbian still does not get it however. What are they going to do when we move away from gsm/3g/etc and everyone moves to WIFi and VOIP (hypothetically)?

General purpose is best, and will trump in the long run (and this is where PPC's are the strongest). Now if only OEM's had more freedom, and actually used it!

Surur

[Scott R]

I feel that, for now, the largest group of users' needs will be met by the new round of smartphones, as many of them mainly need PIM functionality (evidenced by the strong sales of the B&W Zire last Xmas). Though, even there, data entry is an issue. The Treo 600 could be an attractive device for this market if not for its overinflated price.

But, while that may be the largest market, I also feel that the market for people wanting more functionality and a larger screen is significant enough (and the profit margin is greater), such that it would be foolish for manufacturers to ignore it under the notion that the "smartphone" is the only way to go.

As someone here mentioned, Larry Garfield at infoSync posted a commentary about a week ago where he talked about how all he wanted was a dumb (and cheap) Bluetooth phone to go along with his PDA. I had talked about this very concept in the Brighthand forums a couple of months prior, and his commentary prompted me to write up a blurb on my web site a few days ago. The blurb was very short, but I ended up rehashing many more details (as I had previously talked about at Brighthand) in my forum. Rather than plug my site here, here's the meat of what I talked about:
So how do you keep the utility belt to a minimum? Here's what I suggest as a good "separates" setup:
1) "Dumb" Bluetooth phone the size of a large pager. Ideally black and discreet with a belt clip. It would be rather unnoticeable. From here on out, I'll refer to this as the "black box."
2) Large screen, but relatively small overall PDA. There's a variety of form-factors possible here. Let's talk about current technology: Some people might want something sized along the lines of a Tungsten T (small but thick with a big D-Pad). Others might want an even larger screen (320x480 or higher). Here I might drop the D-Pad since I find these to be rather akward to use and too small on rectangular-screened devices. The advantage there is that you can make the device smaller while keeping the screen "large." Some flavors of the PDA would also incorporate a built-in thumbboard. Also, the PDA "unit" would be where I would integrate a built-in camera. Again, though, some users might not want/need it or might want a separate more professional camera, so I wouldn't like to see a built-in camera integrated into all PDAs. For most designs, the PDA would fit just fine in your pocket, not on your belt.

That's really all you need to carry with you at all times. No need for a utility belt. Then, there are some accessories that you would mainly have in the car:
3) A Bluetooth headset when driving. You could carry this with you outside of the car as well, of course, but you wouldn't need to as I would recommend modifying the PDA design to include a built-in microphone and speaker so that you could use it like a phone. But because the GSM or CDMA circuitry and battery to support that wireless technology would be stored in the "black box", the PDA would still be smaller/lighter than a PDA with built-in phone technology.
4) A Bluetooth GPS unit. Again, this would mainly stay in the car, but it wouldn't hurt to make it detachable for the occassions that you want to go hiking. In those cases, you'll probably need a belt clip, so the "utility belt" concept starts to emerge. But I consider this to be a part-time situation for most users, so most of the time it would stay in the car.

I would add to this concept a car cradle for charging the PDA which would also be tied into your stereo so that you can use the PDA for MP3 or audible book playing through your car stereo. It should be smart enough to mute the volume when it needs to speak a GPS direction or when a call comes in.

The other advantage of taking the phone functionality out of the PDA is that it allows you to upgrade your PDA without having to change phone providers (or vice versa). Right now, if you like the Hitachi G1000 but don't like Sprint, you're out of luck.

Another optional accessory I would add would be a foldable full-size QWERTY keyboard. These already exist, but I'd like to see a Bluetooth version become available so as to keep it more universal. This is big enough that it would need to go in your pocket, purse, backpack, or briefcase. Most users probably won't need/want it. I probably would and would have to carry it in my pocket, so I'd have the PDA and keyboard in my pocket and the "black box" on my belt. Again, the "black box" wouldn't be noticeable, IMO, so only the PDA and keyboard would be a bit bulky for my pocket. But overall, this would add tremendous advantages over any convergent phone device for the power user.
As I mentioned in another thread here (and in that original Brighthand thread), add to this the idea of the "black box" being modular where you can snap on other "wireless" modules such as a Wi-Fi module.

Scott

[CTSLICK]

"The PDA is dead" makes for a nice sound bite but I don't think its true now nor is it going to be. What we call smartphones today will certainly outsell PDA's by a longshot. As technology advances this type of mobile phone will be as ubiquitous as belly buttons. And the bar for smartphones will be pushed higher still in terms of our expectations of the device. As the devices improve many will realize that their PDA needs can be met via a smartphone.

But the PDA will not be dead. There will remain a sizable number of people who will not want to depend solely on the small screen and restricted text input methods of a smartphone. Certainly enough people to continue to attract the attention of HP, Dell etc.

My view is that the smartphone should be able to function as an extension of my PDA. My smartphone's bluetooth should always be on and connected to my PDA. The phone should be my means of connecting my PDA to the internet (as my T68 is now for my Axim) but it should be always on. The phone should automatically stay synchronised (via Bluetooth) with my PDA's schedule, tasks and appointments and even selected documents and spreadsheets if I want. That way if I want to "go light" I can grab my phone and know I have the basics.

But the smartphone cannot support all of my needs and my needs are centered on the physical dimensions of the device. I cannot imagine taking notes at meetings and working on documents on that tiny screen using T9. Browsing the web on a phone is marginal at best and downright impossible on some websites.

I don't want a bigger phone otherwise I would have bought a T-Mo PDA/phone. Once again I want my phone to be an extension of my PDA.

As a side note: Symbian needs 20 million devices a year to break even and they just hit 2.68 million to date in 2003...thats a tough battle.

OFF-TOPIC:
And can someone PLEASE explain the whole camera in the phone phenomena. I just DO NOT get it. I don't want some crappy camera in my phone that costs me another $100. Why not put that money into things like better bluetooth or Wi-Fi for that matter. That's technology I'd pay for.

[mobileMike]

I use to think I was 2 device (phone and PDA) person. Now I want one with all the features.

Here are my categories for typical users.

1) need a phone
2) want to read/view/listen to information. text (messaging, email, calendar, ....) video, music
3) need to input substaintial information
4) want to test the limit of any device they own

I think from (2) to (3) people start migrating to a "PDA" or 2 device solution.

My unfounded opinion is....
- Most people are (1)
- Market for (2) is growing mostly from (1) but also from (3).
- Most people posting to this forum are (3) or (4).

I am somewhere between 2 and 3, but closer to 2.

Currently the phone (mine is a Nokia 3650) wins because of size. I like carrying gadgets in my pockets not on my belt. I am happy reading on my phone (books, email, wap, calendar, todos, ...). I am not happy with inputing text. T9 is not usable when you use more than one language. I wish I could pop out a normal sized stylus (not like the P800) and write even on the small screen.

The PDA size is OK if I could carry it in my back pocket and not worry about cracking the screen when I sit down. This was the case with my Palm IIIx for a couple of years (then it cracked). I think this would require a slightly more flexible screen with a good cover.

The author talks about cameras but the popular 640x480 cameras are worthless except for sending MMS. They look OK on the phone, but they are not worth saving. At least increase this to 1 MP and add a cheap flash so it can be used as a snapshot camera.

In the past WiFi was an issue around the house, this is where the PDA wins. Now, I am happy with the GPRS away from home, bluetooth for syncing data. I have WiFi for my PDA and laptop but I rarely use it.

[DaleReeck]

I would replace my Axim with a "Smartphone" right now if it could meet the following specs:

Be no larger than a T68i
Have a transflective screen of at least 3.5 inches, ideally 3.8 inches
Run a full version of Windows Mobile
Have dual expansion slots, one SDIO and one CF
Have a 400MHz processor (minimum)
Ideally 128 MB of RAM with a seperate memory for storing programs.
BT and 802.11b (or g) built in.

Hmmm, looks like this is describing a cellphone and X7 or 4100 combo. :D

No larger than a T68i? Not only do you have an electronics problem, you have a physics problem too since a T68i is much smaller than a 3.5 or 3.8 inch screen ;)

[Scott R]

OFF-TOPIC:
And can someone PLEASE explain the whole camera in the phone phenomena. I just DO NOT get it. I don't want some crappy camera in my phone that costs me another $100. Why not put that money into things like better bluetooth or Wi-Fi for that matter. That's technology I'd pay for.I saw this on Gizmodo.com today. It's a quote from Japan Media Review and probably explains it better than I could:
In comparison to the traditional camera, which gets trotted out for special excursions and events -- noteworthy moments bracketed off from the mundane -- camera phones capture the more fleeting and unexpected moments of surprise, beauty and adoration in the everyday. They also invite sharing that is more immediate, ad hoc and ongoing, such as a dad e-mailing a baby photo to a mom or a teenager showing a picture of her current crush to a friend in a fast food restaurant... As the mundane is elevated to a photographic object, the everyday is now the site of potential news and visual archiving. Sending camera-phone photos to major news outlets and moblogging are one end of a broad spectrum of everyday and mass photojournalism using camera phones. What counts as newsworthy, noteworthy and photo-worthy spans a broad spectrum from personally noteworthy moments that are never shared (a scene from an escalator) to intimately newsworthy moments to be shared with a spouse or lover (a new haircut, a child riding a bike).

Scott

[dh]

I would replace my Axim with a "Smartphone" right now if it could meet the following specs:

Be no larger than a T68i
Have a transflective screen of at least 3.5 inches, ideally 3.8 inches
Not sure about the physics of your universe, but here, a phone that is barely 2 inches wide can't take a 3.5/3.8 inch screen.

Wake up Ed, that's my point. If a combined device has a usable screen it's too big to really use as a phone. If it's phone size, it just does not have enough features to be a real PPC. I guess I'm trying to say that a converged device is not very good at either job.

As I said, when a phone/pda can have the screen size I want combined with the physical size I want, that's when I'll buy one. Until then, I'll be happy with a PPC and a cellphone.
No larger than a T68i? Not only do you have an electronics problem, you have a physics problem too since a T68i is much smaller than a 3.5 or 3.8 inch screen ;)
I guess my sarcasm was somewhat wasted today. :D

[jngold_me]

I think a phone/pda combo the size/weight of a current 1900 series Ipaq would just about do it for me. It would have to be thin and extremely light for me to consider carrying a pda/phone device around everywhere I go.

[dean_shan]

The PDA will still be around and kicking. In some places the fancy PDA/Phone combos do not work (ie Alaska). Those people are never going to buy a smart phone. And as others have said "You will need more power then a PIM." That's why I think hte PPC will live on.

[Zensbikeshop]

As a side note: Symbian needs 20 million devices a year to break even and they just hit 2.68 million to date in 2003...thats a tough battle.

Where have you seen that? I follow Symbian pretty closely (as an ex Psion employee and shareholder) and wasn't aware of that.

Symbian are of course privately owned and so don't produce audited figures - the fact they are talking numbers makes one think an IPO is in the air or maybe something else.... :wink:

I think the PDA as we know it is dying but not dead.

I see there as being two types of Smartphones; the P800 pda/phone and the Orange SPV Smartphone approach.

At present Symbian lead the former and MS the latter - although the new Treo (600?) looks interesting.

I think that those two types of device will continue to develop and overlap in places.

I like a two box solution still; with the option to take just my small phone with me when I don't need my iPAQ.

I am however ver seriosuly considering a smartphone to replace my mobile next time but in addition to my iPAQ. When the new MS Smartphones come out early next year and include Bluetooth I will be very interested.

[Bob Anderson]

Well, I find this article's timing curious...

Wasn't it just yesterday that one of the world's largest handset maker (Motorola) announced it was dumping it's investment in Symbian....

That makes me wonder if Mr. Levin's viewpoint wasn't shared by a larger partner, hence their parting of ways?

Five years from now, PDA functionality will still be alive, albeit, morphed into something different. But the same will be said for the SmartPhone! Until we get computer input improved, I don't see us all using SmartPhones to type e-mails (or post to communities like this :wink: ) and I certainly don't see people lugging around large PDAs if all they want to do is make phone calls! So, there will be "crossover" devices (kind of like the car/SUV phenomenon going on currently) but there will be true "cars" and true "trucks" for many years yet to come.

I think I remember reading 10-15 years ago that paper and coin money was going to go away. I don't know about you all... but I still see plenty of it being spent and in fact I think the Gov't is still printing/minting plenty of it!!!

Mr. Levin can dream that PDAs will go away.. since he doesn't really have a chance in gaining a market there.. but reality is he is just another corporate titan trying to put out a public "spin" that may justify his (or his entity's) existence, rather than answering what the market has said it wants. He's no more guilty than the next CEO, but let's see it for what it's worth. I fully dismiss his comments as corporate propaganda!!!

Pocket PC Forever! (OOPS... am I dating myself here?)

[CTSLICK]

As a side note: Symbian needs 20 million devices a year to break even and they just hit 2.68 million to date in 2003...thats a tough battle.

Where have you seen that? I follow Symbian pretty closely (as an ex Psion employee and shareholder) and wasn't aware of that.



From the article Jason linked:
"In the first six months of 2003 there were 10 Symbian-based phones on sale around the world produced by three licensees of the software maker's operating system. During those six months more than 2.68 million Symbian devices were sold.

Currently under development, said Mr Levin, were 26 phones by nine licensees. One of the new firms to sign up for Symbian was BenQ, the leading maker of mobiles in Taiwan.

Symbian as a company would break even when 20 million handsets using its software were sold per year, he said. "

[Jimmy Dodd]

There are PDA's with digi-cams, are these SmartCamerasTM. And because my PDA can play MP3's is it now a SmartWalkmanTM?

I've had a modem on my desktop PC for almost twenty years now. I guess that makes it a SmartPhone, too. Who knew I was so ahead of the times? :D

[easylife]

Soon Desktops, Laptops, Tablets, PDAs, and Smartphones will all share the same specs and interconnectedness - all you have to answer is what size. :D

[saquibk]

I have used by Casio EM-500 for almost 3 years now. Recently I bought a Nokia 3650 from AT&T. After discounts I got it for free. It is based on the Symbian OS. I have had it for a month and I am trying to see if I can live without my Pocket PC now. I must say that I really like the device very much. It has almost all the apps that I had installed on the Casio. Also the app sizes are very small and the performance is very snappy. It is not as good at handling the various multimedia formats as PocketPC but it can act as a camcorder in an emergency and the quality is not too bad either. Let's see if I can live with only the phone and if so then I can avoid upgrading to a new Pocket PC device till the MS Smartphones become available in the US.

[Zensbikeshop]

As a side note: Symbian needs 20 million devices a year to break even and they just hit 2.68 million to date in 2003...thats a tough battle.

Where have you seen that? I follow Symbian pretty closely (as an ex Psion employee and shareholder) and wasn't aware of that.



From the article Jason linked:
"In the first six months of 2003 there were 10 Symbian-based phones on sale around the world produced by three licensees of the software maker's operating system. During those six months more than 2.68 million Symbian devices were sold.

Currently under development, said Mr Levin, were 26 phones by nine licensees. One of the new firms to sign up for Symbian was BenQ, the leading maker of mobiles in Taiwan.

Symbian as a company would break even when 20 million handsets using its software were sold per year, he said. "

Duh! Sorry missed that!

Motorola are selling their share in Symbian because they are focussing on Linux and to a lesser extent MS Smartphone for their Smartphone OS.

They can still licence the Symbin OS and UIQ UI as they are doing for the A920 but without maintaining an investment in Symbian.

[petvas]

This issue comes up from time to time. We all wonder if we should have one or two devices. Current technology does not allow the all-in-one approach if we are talking about a Computer User. Most people that do not have a computer at home, or are not Computer enthusiasts will definitely go for a "Smartphone". I do not see where the problem lies. The PDA industry does not have those users now anyway!!! The PDA user needs a pocket computer, powerful enough to do many computing tasks and also accompany his/her desktop. Connectivity is also needed and we are getting there. The PDA is not dying, it is evolving. The Mobile is always evolving; more PDA features are being integrated into mobiles and more Mobile features into PDAs. The problem here is that the mobile cannot become a full Pocket PC in its current form and technology. It has a small screen, memory is limited and software quality is low compared to a PDA. The PDA on the other hand is a computer and that makes it more powerful. The PDA can easily integrate Mobile Phone features... There are a lot issues to be resolved of course!! Technology is constantly improving and we are not far from seeing a Mobile Phone PDA better than a Mobile Phone. The issue here is that the form factor of a PDA makes it not practical for Mobile Phone usage. It is also very sensitive... I don't want to go to a party with my PDA. I will always be afraid that I might ruin it...
A smaller PDA (like the 1940) might do the trick, but currently such small PDAs lack the technology to become full-featured PDAs and Mobile Phones at the same time...

[Dr. Grabow]

The smartest phone in the world won't do me any good out here in the sticks, where I often can't get *any* mobile phone service for large stretches. This won't change for a long time, so I'll be using a PDA with a dumb phone for a long time too ...

[element]

I think someday, maybe in the not so near future, the display will be replaced with either holographics or some sort of 'foldable' display technology that will allow the screen to either be compacted or 'growable' . That's just my sci-fi dream I guess.

[rmasinag]

I agree with PDA + dumb phone (t68i) with BT combo

The only thing that might change my mind is an ODA II(ditch the gay camera pls! :devilboy: ) with a Jabra BT headset.

I use my PPC so much, MP3, scientific cal, graphing cal, picture viewer, watch Seinfeld, in additon to PI4 for PIM

Now try taking a physics/math exam with a smartphone screen for calc, watch Seinfeld, and view a detailed Calendar(5 lectures, 2 labs, 2 jobs), and you will find it moot. :roll:

I need a computer, not a "toy" with monthly fees

just my $.50

[racerx]

Yea, yea, the PC is dead too if you listen to Larry Elison. 5 years later and we still have 'em.

First, some people don't want smart phones, they just want to talk on the phone. Can't see my parents ever touching a smartphone.

Second, Unless and Until an operating system is developed that doesn't hang, does true multi-tasking, the PDA is not dead. NOBODY has an OS that I could use without crashing it. I want to use my GPS and Windows Media Player or Audible Player at the same time. Hit pause on the player and record a voice memo. I do these things every day. What happens when I get a phone call? Can I make a voice memo when I'm using it as a phone? I can't with my current phone, so I wouldn't expect to do so with my combo.

Third, battery life has to improve dramatically for me to use one device as everything. If my handheld goes dead, I can still make calls. I know people have dealt with this since combo devices have been out, but I need better battery technology before I combine my units.

[Hooked]

I don't think the pda will ever die, but it will certainly continue to evolve as will the smartphone.&nbsp&nbspIn the future, the functions between them will continue to merge and the devices will look less and less like their current selves.&nbsp&nbspBut, each is optimized for a specific function, and the propriety of a device will depend on what the desired task is.

My Nokia 3650 includes a media player, a digital still and video camera, and web browser.&nbsp&nbspIt's primary function is, however, as a phone.&nbsp&nbspIt is small enough that I carry it with me without too much thought, and there were times when I didn't think about bringing a media player or camera but having that functionality was valuable.

But if I know I am going to be taking pictures, I bring my 4MP digital camera.&nbsp&nbspAnd although my digital camera can take video, it doesn't compare to the quality of a dedicated video camera.

The point is flexibility.&nbsp&nbspThe pda is much better than the smartphone for web browsing, playing media, and data entry.&nbsp&nbspBut, my laptop is even better than the pda.&nbsp&nbspThe tradeoff is portability.&nbsp&nbspI don't want to carry every device with me all the time.

Device communication is ultimately more important than device convergence.&nbsp&nbspBluetooth is a start, but it is too primitive and complicated for the general public to gain good value from it.&nbsp&nbspAnd while a solid basic "cable" replacement technology needs to form the foundation of such a system, more sophisticated technology layers will be what adds synergistic value to the individual devices.

I don't need a camera that can send email, but it would be nice if my pda and cellphone were "aware" of my camera and could retrieve an image just like it was in the file system. Then I could have the pda or cellphone process and email the image.

That is really what I want.&nbsp&nbspTo have the right device at the right time and have my devices be able to interact in a logical manner easily.

[Tim Jump]

For me, it's very straightforward: I like a phone that's small and a PDA that's...well, PDA sized. I can't imagine using a tiny-screened phone to do a lot of the stuff I do on my iPAQ, just like I can't imagine wanting to hold my iPAQ up to my face to use as a phone.

I think we'll continue to see convergence between the two, but there will always be a market for tiny phones and powerful handheld computers. So no, I don't think PDAs will die anytime soon.

[tedkyle]

I suspect that dumb phones and unconnected PDAs are both endangered.

A smart phone with simple PDA functions will meet the needs of many.

A connected PDA with a bluetooth earbud will meet my needs.

Using a bluetooth phone with a bluetooth PDA makes me want to lose one or the other.

[farnold]

I tend to agree that there are at least two classes of users - and maybe even a third one:

- One that wants a phone and nothing but a phone. They need neither Symbian nor any other OS with advanced features. And - to the big disappointment of both Symbian and PocketPC - this is by large numbers still the biggest group. If I would try to give my mum or my sisters anything but telephone features they would be lost anyway. Ah, right, they have Internet on their new mobile phones... and it's of no value for them at all. Gee, they even buy a phone with built-in camera, try it once or twice and realize that they don't need that either...

- One that want a phone with integration into their calendar, contacts and maybe email. They have the choice between Symbian or Smartphone or others.

- The last group - and isn't that largely ther group discussing here? - wants more than just that. An (almost) full function computer on the road. With telephone, internet, email, document oder spreadsheet editing, access to backoffice (host) applications and so forth. They can very cleary not get what they want with Symbian. PPC PE with Bluetooth and WiFi or even PALM delivers something for them...

So, poor Mr. Symbian: you have no offering for the first and the last class. And now you even have competition for the middle one... Bad luck, ey? At the same time some big players discountinue working with you... Guess what: I think you can shout as loud as you like... it's not other things being dead - it's you losing the game...

Just my 2c

[SandersP]

News flash: Smartphone is DEAD, in the near future all smartphone will be replaced with wireless PDA.

Movie at 11.

[Duncan]

Of course, the reality of bluetooth is a bit sad at the moment. It's nowhere near seamless. I need to be able to establish a dialup network connection on my PDA by only tapping an icon representing the phone in my pocket. Bluetooth should always be on - there shouldn't be an option to turn it off. To conserve battery life, it needs to become more efficient...

Once they can get bluetooth to "just work" and actually have a real Zero configuration experience, then the PDA/phone combo will really take off.

Odd - my T610 is permanently on, th BT is always on and internet connection is a matter of tapping a single icon - that's WM2003 for you! Configuration took about 15 seconds too...

[Duncan]

Why not a converged device where a simple mobile phone module can be removed and used separately when desired? How hard can thatlbe to achieve?

[SandersP]

Why not a converged device where a simple mobile phone module can be removed and used separately when desired? How hard can thatlbe to achieve?

You can't have that. The market researcher are going to get confused. :mrgreen:

[caywen]

I think what he meant was: SYMBIAN PDA's are dead :lol:

[maximus]

Hmmm, looks like this is describing a cellphone and X7 or 4100 combo. :D

No smartphone for me. I dont want to ruin my eyes trying to checkout my appointment on those tiny 1" screen.

Release the X7 already. :mrgreen:

[Timothy Rapson]

I have used by Casio EM-500 for almost 3 years now. Recently I bought a Nokia 3650 from AT&T. After discounts I got it for free. It is based on the Symbian OS. I have had it for a month and I am trying to see if I can live without my Pocket PC now. I must say that I really like the device very much. It has almost all the apps that I had installed on the Casio. Also the app sizes are very small and the performance is very snappy. It is not as good at handling the various multimedia formats as PocketPC but it can act as a camcorder in an emergency and the quality is not too bad either. Let's see if I can live with only the phone and if so then I can avoid upgrading to a new Pocket PC device till the MS Smartphones become available in the US.

That is really fascinting.

Have you installed any apps? Games?

Is there an editor for the pics? A card slot?


If you got this for nothing, next year it will have 4 times as many features again for nothing. That is going to be very hard for any PDA to match.

[maximus]

OFF-TOPIC:
And can someone PLEASE explain the whole camera in the phone phenomena. I just DO NOT get it. I don't want some crappy camera in my phone that costs me another $100. Why not put that money into things like better bluetooth or Wi-Fi for that matter. That's technology I'd pay for.

You are in a party. Suddently you notice that your favourite celebrity (say, elizabeth hurley or britney or christina, etc.) is dancing 5 meters away from you, with almost nothing on her.

You did not bring your digital camera. What to do ? What to do ? Hey, my motorola V600 has camera, OK, click click click ... took 50 images. That's one.

Lets say you worked as an auditor. When auditing a company's financial, you noticed that it is really messed up, but there is no printer in the vicinity to take the proof, what to do ? what to do ? take out the V600, click click click, you are done. That's two.

You are in tahiti for business purpose without your beloved spouse. You go to the beach during lunch hour, the scenery is awesome, you wish your wife is there with you. what to do ? what to do ?

And a lot more. I personally do not have that problem, because I always put a dimage xi in my pocket. But for most people, they might need a camera phone to capture those sudden memorable moments.

[maximus]

I would replace my Axim with a "Smartphone" right now if it could meet the following specs:

Be no larger than a T68i
Have a transflective screen of at least 3.5 inches, ideally 3.8 inches
Not sure about the physics of your universe, but here, a phone that is barely 2 inches wide can't take a 3.5/3.8 inch screen.

Ah, it is a holographic phone ! The phone's 'screen' projects a two dimensional array of blips 2 inches away, hence the projected screen can be larger than the phone screen itself :mrgreen:

[Brad Adrian]

Non-connected PDAs will not completely disappear, but they will not be able to drive tremendous revenue, either. I wonder if the analogy of the pocket calculators applies here...

They used to be very expensive (even the 4-function ones), but now corporate supply cabinets are filled with throw-away versions of them. Maybe in a few years our supply cabinets will have non-connected PDAs for people to grab and synch with the corporate databases, etc. for when they're away from their desks. And, if they get lost or broken, we'll just go grab another one.

[Timothy Rapson]

Overall.

Yep, the PDA is dead. Sales are already falling.

RE: the smartphone not being able to do what a PDA/mobile computing device does. Sorry, only a little more memory and better add on software and a P800, Motorola A920 or next years Motorola A760 with full Linux mobile and Java, will do anything any handheld does now.

I love cameras on PDAs and see them as de riquer on any future phones. I request that only those who have tried owning such models claim they don't want a camera built in.

The Motorola A920 is prices 1/3 less than the Sony P800. Within a year we will likely see such a model selling for free after contract as that Nokia 3650 does now. Who will buy an Ipaq at even $200?

I suppose there may be a small market for those who fly or use their PDAs in places where phones and cameras are not allowed. But, for most a A920 or P800 feature-set phone/PDA (it may be reduced in size to just the size of a current PDA screen) will be far preferable to any PDA.

I just hope my dream PDA model comes out before all the mere PDAs are gone. I'd like something like a VGA screened ViewSonic V37 with CF slot and fold-out keyboard as shown in the HP 4000 prototypes. I don't really want to carry a phone at all, but I may see one of those offering exactly the features I want, before I ever see such a ViewSonic.

[qmrq]

In other news today, the Microsoft monopoly has been destroyed, and Linux is dead. 8)

[jimski]

As the vast majority of people (at least in the US) don't pay a dime for their cell phone (cheap diddly things included with plan), the demise of the PDA will come when providers start :mrgreen: "giving away" :mrgreen: smart phones. I don't know if that will be before or after Hell freezes over.

Long live the PDA. I mean, long live the PPC.

[disconnected]

Ideally, I want a small phone, and a PPC with at least a 3.8 inch screen. I'd prefer that the PPC be able to connect to a cellular network without using the phone. I think there shouldn't be such a thing as a PPC phone edition; all PPCs should have this capability built in, and have space for a tiny CDMA or GPRS module; you should be able to buy one or both, and plug them in as needed, for home or travel. Of course the phone companies should also have reasonable pricing plans for this; it makes no sense that Sprint charges 10.00 or less for unlimited data access on a Thera or Treo, and 99.00 for unlimited access with a CDMA CF card (I know they worry you'd use it with a laptop, but if there were small modules that could only be used in a PPC, this shouldn't be an issue.

[mobileMike]

As the vast majority of people (at least in the US) don't pay a dime for their cell phone (cheap diddly things included with plan), the demise of the PDA will come when providers start :mrgreen: "giving away" :mrgreen: smart phones. I don't know if that will be before or after Hell freezes over.

Long live the PDA. I mean, long live the PPC.

I don't live in the US but while visiting parents this summer I saw at least 2 operators (T-Mobile, AT&T) giving away the Nokia 3650.

[Janak Parekh]

I don't live in the US but while visiting parents this summer I saw at least 2 operators (T-Mobile, AT&T) giving away the Nokia 3650.
Ah, good point. However, the 3650 is pretty limited in what it can do compared to a PDA. The question is what the "casual smartphone user" would need -- is the 3650 enough? It's very similar to a Smartphone in that regard.

The P800 is more of a competitor to today's PDAs, in that it is one. ;) I wonder if the market will segment based on touch-screen devices and non-touch-screen devices. Devices like the upcoming Treo 600 will be an interesting play in that regard.

--janak

[Paula]

For me it makes more sense to integrate a phone into a PDA than to offer minimal PDA capabilities in a "smart" phone. The phone's screen would have to be at least 3.5", have FULL PDA capabilities, and be expandable (cf/sdio). I think this guy is trying to talk himself into believing what he is saying.

When iPaq offers a resonably priced PDA with either CDMA or GPRS/GPS (whatever the latest/greatest is) built in I will buy it. That is as long as it is up to the task. It would also help if the battery companies expand the capabilities of battery life, and the PDM/XDA (whatever they will end up calling them) has a large capacity battery (solar would be nice), tons of memory (128 RAM 48 ROM minimum) and remains a 2 slot device (cf/sdio or sdio/sdio).

Cheers
Paula

[Paula]

Janak,
I have tried using the P800 and to be honest after about 20 minutes I was no longer impressed. The screen was too small, it did not offer full capabilities and playing Ultima was a chore. Now I know this is really the first shot at a phone/pda combo, but it falls way too short for my tastes. As it has been said, this device is for the casual user who might be impressed by the limited capability of what is being offered.

Now having said that I am not part of the industry that will make these devices nor that will market them. They may do a great selling job, but I am part of the market that will consider buying one and all I have to say is that they will have to come a long way to get me interested so my vote is... NOPE...

To be fair:
I have also tried the Audiovox Thera and I liked it VERY much, but the near NZ$2,000.00 price tag turned me off rather quickly. :mrgreen:

Cheers
Paula

[Janak Parekh]

I have tried using the P800 and to be honest after about 20 minutes I was no longer impressed. The screen was too small, it did not offer full capabilities and playing Ultima was a chore.
Well, there's your problem :D The P800 isn't really designed for games like Ultima... and I suspect that places you out of the class of the "casual user".

I have also tried the Audiovox Thera and I liked it VERY much, but the near NZ$2,000.00 price tag turned me off rather quickly. :mrgreen:
The scary part is the Thera is about as mediocre as "connected Pocket PCs" get. The Samsung SCH-i700 is miles ahead of the Thera. If either it or the XDA become available in NZ, check 'em out. :)

--janak

[Paula]

And another thing... :lol:

Sort of off topic but I need to rant here.:bad-words:
You will see the connection to this thread
{using an imaginary RANT Font here}

Do I really need to have a PC in my fridge? Seriously? Was this meant to keep women connected but also put them back into in the kitchen? Or are we becoming a society of brain dead machine-a-holics who can't function without a PC (the internet) in every appliance (toasters next) or piece of furniture we own?
Don't get me wrong I am a geek and a gadget-a-holic, but I do like to function apart from computers as well (although I have been in the computer industry for ages :? ). I would never give up any of the helpful appliances I have, but I do not need the capability to be connected to the internet in every appliance I own either.

I asked the manufacturer about this (smoke was coming out of my ears) and he said it is for the ease of the consumer, so ordering your groceries online would be more convienient. Well, do I want to be part of a society that can't use a pen and paper or a society that does not have the mental capacity to remember what they need at the store? I say if you need to order online and don't want to be bothered by trying to remember what you eat, use your PPC to make a list or hook up a wireless connection to ppc/desktop/or phone and place your order.

I asked him if they plan on putting a PC in stoves so women can watch their food cook and surf at the same time. He was not amused by my question. :wink:

Rant over :mrgreen:

Cheers
Paula

[Paula]

Well, there's your problem :D The P800 isn't really designed for games like Ultima... and I suspect that places you out of the class of the "casual user".

The scary part is the Thera is about as mediocre as "connected Pocket PCs" get. The Samsung SCH-i700 is miles ahead of the Thera. If either it or the XDA become available in NZ, check 'em out. :)

--janak

Oh I know I'm not a casual user, I'm a geek at heart and very proud of it. 8)

See that's the problem with NZ, we don't get all of the good stuff right away. We are just getting the 1910 here and HP has already discontinued the model. :lol: The 2210 has to be special ordered.

When I tried the Audiovox Thera and nearly chocked on the price (actually my first post was wrong it was $2,400.00) of the device I told the salesperson that in the States this brand was made by a low to medium end manufacturer. He tried to reassure me that this was a high quality device and was in no means low end. I just smiled at him and walked away. I'm an American consumer I know my manufactureres. :D

Cheers
Paula

[Janak Parekh]

See that's the problem with NZ, we don't get all of the good stuff right away. We are just getting the 1910 here and HP has already discontinued the model. :lol: The 2210 has to be special ordered.
:cry:

Here's an interesting question: how available is the P800 in NZ? And what's the cost? A major consideration about Symbian's potential success is the availability of the devices internationally, more so than things like Pocket PCs.

--janak

[Paula]

Janak,
The cost of the P800 is just about NZ$2,000.00. It is not priced for the casual user. The P800 was purchased at a slight discount from what I understand. The other problem is, we do not use the same frequency the US uses. I believe we use a higher frequency than the US. Which means the device would have to be a tri-band device. We are just starting to get tri-band capable phones here. NZ is not behind in technology, just availability at the consumer level. There is a laptop I want from Toshiba that I can't buy here (5205-S705). So I either import it and pay through the nose for duty or wait until it arrives here in NZ and still pay through the nose or wait for a sale. :cry:

[ctmagnus]

8O

The Thera and P800 approach twice what I paid for my iPaq 5550! I'd much rather have my live 5550 than a smartphone-type unit that costs twice as much, regardless of who this guy says is dying.

[Janak Parekh]

The Thera and P800 approach twice what I paid for my iPaq 5550! I'd much rather have my live 5550 than a smartphone-type unit that costs twice as much, regardless of who this guy says is dying.
You're assuming Paula can get the 5550 for what you can. It seems they're not readily available in her country. :cry:

--janak

[Paula]

The iPaq h5550 is available by special order for the low price of NZ$1,500.00. The h2210 by special order is NZ$849.00, and finally the discontinued h1910 is NZ$700.00. This is why I am being very careful about what I buy. I can't change iPaq every 6 months at these prices. And buying from eBay at a lower price (US) is out of the question as about 90% of the sellers won't ship to NZ and neither do the online retailer's. I really do need to move back home to the States. :wink:

Oh I forgot to add the reason I waited so long for an IPaq was that I wanted both a CF and an SD slot and the h5500 does not meet that all important criteria. I don't want sleeves.

Paula

[Janak Parekh]

I really do need to move back home to the States. :wink:
Do you still have family here? Use your next visit as a means to get the newest iPAQs for much cheaper. Or, could you have a family member order a new iPAQ and ship it to you?

--janak

[ctmagnus]

Do you still have family here? Use your next visit as a means to get the newest iPAQs for much cheaper.

--janak

But if we (Canadians) go to the States, we can only bring back (iirc - I haven't been there since 1997) the $USD equivalent of $300CAD. Or it may be $300USD period - barely enough for a 1940 by my calculations :( . I'd assume it's the same for other countries.

[Paula]

Do you still have family here? Use your next visit as a means to get the newest iPAQs for much cheaper. Or, could you have a family member order a new iPAQ and ship it to you?

--janak

Yes I do have family in the States. As a matter of fact I have a $420.00 gift certificate from CompUSA that I need to use before March 2004. I received it almost 2 years ago and have been waiting and waiting for the right PPC for me to come along. But I have to pay duty on it as soon as it arrives here. :cry: Originally I had requested a Palm m505 for Xmas (2 years ago) that was until I saw a PPC for the first time. Right after Xmas I sent the unopened m505 back to CompUSA and they sent me a gift Certificate Card. Now if anyone who has family out of the country who want to try this, don't do it. There are too many restrictions and is a BIG hassle. CompUSA will not take an International Credit Card, will NOT ship outside the country and will not accept anything but a personal check drawn on a US bank. So I have to bother my aging parents (or any other member of my family) and ask them to pick it up and post it to me. Now this is not usually a problem, but I am tired of asking them to send me things.

Paula

[thrush]

smart phone won't do the trick bcoz of its tiny screen. at least 3.5 inch screen is necessary. i like the idea of a wifi enabled 1900 series ipaq with phone capability (gsm please!!). but i think the main prob would be limited battery life. u have to leave the device on 24hrs. i dont know about the latest development of battery cell technology(?!) but i dont think they r there yet :-) anybody has any idea?

another thing is, i really dont like the idea of holding a pda on my face. cell phones should be tiny cool flip phone type thingy. and its a hassle to use headsets all the time for pda/phones. y not use two devices simultaneously? thats more reliable at least.

but i wouldnt mind my pda having a sim card slot for just in case. u never know when ur cell's gonna betray u. it would work as a backup phone. but i dont wanna use it all the time. what do u ppl think?

[limit]

I think a PDA phone with bluetooth headset will be a better combintion than a compact smartphone

PDA w/ Phone function
- decent screen size for viewing e-books, Spreadsheets, vidoes, pictures and mobile gaming
- just use the bluetooth headset for voice calls, no need to hold anything against your face

Smartphone
- limited screen size (even the bulky P800 can't provide a big enough screen)
- very good for voice call, but not that well for data entry

[sundown]

For me personally it all boils down to choosing either a giant phone - you know, the ones where the PDA and phone are the same device (like the Siemens SX56, the Toshiba 2032SP, the Samsung SPH I700, etc.) and a small phone with a tiny screen. Maybe the masses will flock to the inevitable devices that will come from the convergence of the Pocket PC and the cellular phone but as long as there are non-Pocket PC phones and non-phone Pocket PC's, I'll stick with two devices.

[Mominator]

Another small but important point, and why I will never get a phone/pda combo (in current design, anyway)...

Cheek grease. Ugh.

I have a "round" sort of face, and have noticed that if I lift a pda/phone to my ear, my cheek touches the touchscreen, either leaving a print of my face or activating something I didn't want it to. (I have this issue with several regular phones as well...)

I know, could use an earbud to get around this issue. It's just not very convenient to stick in an earbud every time my pda rings.

Sorry, Mr. Ellison: I am afraid that I will be using a PDA as well as a cell phone for the forseeable future.

[Berls]

I will NEVER want a smartphone. Period.
I will NEVER want a phone with a screen large enough to be a useful PDA. Period.
I will ALWAYS want the devices to be separate. Period.

Which means, as with good TV dramas, I will very likely watch the devices I value disappear, replaced by Ronco 3-in-1 gadgets I don't want to use. I hope my PPC has a long life.

[Noel.Holland]

Nah I think the symbian exec who said this is a phone person. Certainly his comments are directed at selling more phones which use his product and not PDAs which don't use his product.

As far as I'm concerned there are two types of gadget lover:

The Phone person loves their phone but wants extra facilities like a PDA.

The PDA person loves their PDA but wants the communications features of a phone (sometimes as a complete replacement for voice comms, sometimes just for data)

Phone people don't like the size of PDA's. PDA people can't understand why phones don't have bigger screens and much more memory, speed, expansion ports, etc. Never the twain shall meet.

Me, I'm a PDA person. I love a biggish screen and have no problem with the size of the XDA or other sim enabled PDA's. I'd happily lamp anyone who dared to try to take my XDA away and force a mass market nokia on me. But I understand that there are lots of people out there who want thier small slim phones and don't want a PDA that can weigh 3 to 4 times as much. The size of any data gadget is dictated by the screen so until holos screens become reality a PDA will always have a larger screen than a phone. (Don't laugh as there are now two new systems which are in prototype testing and demonstration to give exactly that feature to large pc systems. It'll take a while for them to become small enough to fit into a phone/pda but it may well happen some time)

Fine, we live in a world where choice is immense, why should we all have to use the same solution as everyone else?

[saphil]

How do you take directions on your mobile phone and type them into your PDA? Is this a re-emergence of the 79 cent pocket memo pad?? I think some multi-purpose tools survive and some ain't gonna. I love my leatherman tool, but I am not ready to give up the rest of my tools, quite yet. If you could synchronize your phone and pocket pc, or if you could add a light handset for the P-PC that would be good.

I may be alone in this. I still carry a DEC-net adapters and a BNC cable tester even though there are very few new token-ring networks being designed these days and DEC's proprietary client/server systems have not been supported by Compaq (or whatever they are calling themselves these days) for years.

[kjg]

Good thoughts, gang. I've been looking @ ppc for a few weeks to replace the ol'Visor. phone-pda combo = ugh! Cheek grease - what an image! Awaiting the new treo - keyboard/screen size concerns me though. 1940/45 looks like the best thing, with a decent dumb-down phone for now.

Anyway, whatever happened to the bluetooth enabled ear-protuberence? Probably didn't work well. I like the comment for small phone linked to great PDA via bluetooth.

Since I can't access corporate intranet via smartphone or WiFi/3G enabled ppc, my dreams really don't matter - the ppc can't replace any aspects of my corporate laptop...(for email, internal web browsing, ppt presentation controller, minimalist xls development....)

[saphil]

While they are at it, how about a 50 gram device with a folding retractible 17" plasma screen, and speech to text capabilities, 80Gbyte HDD, 2 GB ram, folding keyboard... 8O

[Jean]

I think that guy doesn't have a pda. I find more things to do on mine all the time. I schedule everything. I use all features for personal use. I plan, I play games, I learn. I use my cell phone to hook up to the internet and it just takes time off my plan. I listen to music, audio books. I read ebooks, news, magazines. I have Vindigo to find places to go, bands, they have directions. Can you imagine trying to see that on a tiny screen? I read ebooks. I have a camera to take pictures. I could go on. I charge the battery up on my pda all the time. I need an extra battery. My point is if I did all this on a phone/pda I would not only get interupted I would have to change batteries or recharge all the time. That is not good when you need to use the phone! I believe separate is better! :Fade-color

[3mike]

I think a show-stopper for using a so-called smart phone for all the PDA-like function for which I use my Pocket PC, is that it would tie the device to the OS RELEASE OF THE PHONE MAKER. It would not allow me the freedom to upgrade to another OS version as readily as I can today, and as I may need to do, to install new apps. You want a copy of application xyz? Um, does it run on the OS that the phone guys gave me? Even if the OS is a microsoft animal, you will have to run a version controlled by the phone vendor. This will be overly restrictive.

[ipaqgeek]

Both the terms 'PDA' and 'smartphone' should soon be dead.

As terminologies they both suck. "PDA" is too generic and misleading. "Smartphone" completely downplays everything that the converged handheld device of the future will be able to do - and it's stupid for symbian to suggest it is any more appropriate. It's like calling a fully featured sound system a smart radio.

Personally I think the consortium of developers and manufacturers of these devices need to get together and come up with some semantics that are more fitting. Something like CHD ("converged handheld device") or a PAL ("Productivity AcceLerator" - yeah I know it's a stretch) whatever - you get the idea. The point is, 'Smarphone' is no better of a term than PDA, and in someways it's worse.

[Stik]

It comes as no surprise ( to me ) that sales of PPC devices has been declining quarter after quarter, year after year.

Where is the marketing???

Certainly not in mainstream publications that that the general consumer is apt to read. :roll:

The PPC OEM's have no one to blame but themselves for lackluster sales.
If they don't spend the money to promote their products, well...

...failure is almost a given. Thats my opinion anyway.

The general public doesn't have a clue of what a PPC is or does or how it might simplify one's busy life.

On another note, I wonder what the breakdown in numbers would be if new units shipped were broken down into consumer/ business categories.

[shawnc]

I've ranted about this before so I won't belabor the point, but once I found that my Axim did not allow me basic Excel/Word functionality, it became MUCH less of a tool for me. For me, everything revolved around being able to work on grad-school assignments away from home, sync to my desktop, and complete. Without this basic functionality, I was forced to buy a laptop. Now I use my Axim as an MP3 player and ebook reader (though in retrospect, my decision to invest heavily in ebooks is not looking real smart either). The PIM functions are nice, but they are NOT what drove me to the PPC, nor are they enough to keep me there.

This is my third PPC (ipaq, HP-Pro) and I seriously doubt that there will be a forth. I will wait for the 1st clamshell cell phone with an SD card slot (for MP3 playback) and use it for internet, email, etc. It was difficult to adjust to the smaller screen on the PPC, but once I got used to it, it was fine. It was tough to adapt to the smaller screen of my Treo (before I got rid of it), but I adjusted. I'm sure it will be an adjustment when going to a clamshell cell phone, but again, I will adjust.

I think there will ALWAYS be a market for the PPC among the more technical users. I'm just not sure that the technical user represents enough of a market to make it a profitable investment for manufacturers. Microsoft had one heck of an opportunity a few years ago with this product, but they got greedy and forgot about the consumer. As a result, the window may have closed and the opportunity gone. Instead of fixing what was wrong and focusing on features that most consumers would use, they kept adding bells and whistles that only the more technical user could appreciate. I hate to say it because I am such a huge Microsoft fan, but I agree that the PPC, if not dead, is on life-support. Based on conversations I have had with co-workers (I work in Finance with primarily Accountants who are somewhat technical), Microsoft has totally misread the impact of not allowing Excel/Word/Access functionality. It could simply be my lack of expertise, but it seems as though the PPC performs most functions just good enough to get you excited, but poorly enough to frustrate the h%*& out of the average (i.e. non-technical) consumer. The Treo did not do as much as the PPC, but what it did, it did well.

Every year or two I get the bug to upgrade to a new piece of electronic (my wife says it's a sickness and that I should seek professional help). I'm a sucker for electronics and have been looking for something new for the past six months. My focus has been primarily on cell phones that perform some PDA functions. I have not even considered a new PPC. Not because I'm angry or frustrated. Simply because after 5 years of waiting for them to fullfill their enormous potential, I just got tired of waiting. I'm an easy sell for an electronics maker. It doesn't bode well for the PPC that they have lost me (IMO).

[freitasm]

Well, there's your problem :D The P800 isn't really designed for games like Ultima... and I suspect that places you out of the class of the "casual user".

The scary part is the Thera is about as mediocre as "connected Pocket PCs" get. The Samsung SCH-i700 is miles ahead of the Thera. If either it or the XDA become available in NZ, check 'em out. :)

--janak

Oh I know I'm not a casual user, I'm a geek at heart and very proud of it. 8)

See that's the problem with NZ, we don't get all of the good stuff right away. We are just getting the 1910 here and HP has already discontinued the model. :lol: The 2210 has to be special ordered.

When I tried the Audiovox Thera and nearly chocked on the price (actually my first post was wrong it was $2,400.00) of the device I told the salesperson that in the States this brand was made by a low to medium end manufacturer. He tried to reassure me that this was a high quality device and was in no means low end. I just smiled at him and walked away. I'm an American consumer I know my manufactureres. :D

Cheers
Paula

:?: We're getting the HP devices here on the same date they're release in US - at least I ordered from Tech Pacific and got them. Also the new Palm T3, I had one in front of me hours after worldwide release, from Renaissance.

[freitasm]

See that's the problem with NZ, we don't get all of the good stuff right away. We are just getting the 1910 here and HP has already discontinued the model. :lol: The 2210 has to be special ordered.
:cry:

Here's an interesting question: how available is the P800 in NZ? And what's the cost? A major consideration about Symbian's potential success is the availability of the devices internationally, more so than things like Pocket PCs.

--janak

The P800 is available from any Vodafone outlet, and some computer stores. The price is now down to NZ$1500 (around US$ 850), since the P900 will be released here in two weeks.