Trusting "third parties"?

[JustinGTP]

I love how your today screen looks, but... all those third party apps you had to download, install, and hope to goodness it works. MY main concern is exactly that; ThirdParty. You can never trust them with their viruses, and other crap they load onto your pc and now, wait untill they do it to your ppc. They will tell you what you want to hear, "Oh, we don't have anything else in our programs and we dont sell your information, bla, bla, bla." I bet you even this site sells your information. Its a corrupt world out there. Its sad, I know.

But I want to wait until Microsoft does something like that with our PPCs. But thenagain, the crap I get from MS on my pc. Tsk. Im never going to be safe from this!!!

-Justin.

[easylife]

I bet you even this site sells your information.
If they do, that's yet another reason to not subscribe (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17524)... :(

[upplepop]

all those third party apps you had to download, install, and hope to goodness it works. MY main concern is exactly that; ThirdParty. You can never trust them with their viruses, and other crap they load onto your pc and now, wait untill they do it to your ppc. They will tell you what you want to hear, "Oh, we don't have anything else in our programs and we dont sell your information, bla, bla, bla." I bet you even this site sells your information.

I think you may be going a little overboard here :roll:
I have downloaded TONS of PPC third party apps, and have never had one give me a virus or install spyware/malware/etc. Just don't install shady, untested software that some random person promotes in a message board and you'll be fine. The worst that ever happens to me is some programs have sloppy uninstall programs and I have to remove things manually.

Oh, and I doubt PPC Thoughts sells our information. Especially since we don't really supply any (except for those occasional polls).

Stop trolling.

[JustinGTP]

Exactly. You doubt, all I am saying is beware, and thats what I am doing. I am being beware of things. I am not laying down what I believe on you guys, you can think and do whatever you like. I was just sharing my point of view!

-Justin.

[qmrq]

I bet you even this site sells your information. Its a corrupt world out there. Its sad, I know.

Jason, Janak, Ed, and the rest of the team have pretty much the same feelings towards spam. I highly doubt they are selling any personal information to anyone.

[Pat Logsdon]

I bet you even this site sells your information. Its a corrupt world out there. Its sad, I know.
Do a search before you start flinging accusations. 25 seconds with the search engine on this site yielded this thread (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16939&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30), in which Jason says the following:

I'm not planning on ever using the membership database for mailings (other than the newsletter), and I'm not going to sell it to another company, that's for sure!
Pretty clear, don't you think?

[easylife]

In addition, the Privact Policy (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/privacy.htm) link appears at the bottom of the front page. :)

Specific information such as name, email address, or other contact information will never be shared with sponsors.
...unimportant stuff in between...
Thoughts Media will never sell or share your e-mail address with any outside source without your permission.

[JustinGTP]

Stop being so harsh, if you read what I had wrote, you would understand my point of view. I don't care what you guys think, and you don't have to care what I think. I am not discussing the point of whether this site sells our information. You are missing the point again! I am talking about third party software, viruses, and spyware. Selling the information part was a mere example!

And, like I also said, sites tell you what you WANT to hear, about how they DONT sell your information. You have no PROOF they abide by their own privacy policies or what not.

-Justin.

[GoldKey]

I bet you even this site sells your information.
If they do, that's yet another reason to not subscribe (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17524)... :(

What is your beef with the site having a subscription service? You've made comments like this in more than one thread backed only with the basic flawed arguement that the web should be free. I have never seen anyone treated any differently because they are a subscriber or not. And everyone has access to the same content.

[easylife]

What is your beef with the site having a subscription service? You've made comments like this in more than one thread
Yes, for a grand total of two threads - and both comments made today.
I have never seen anyone treated any differently because they are a subscriber or not.
Certainly not because you subscribe, but even Jason treats subscribers differently (quote from here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=158278#158278):

Note to self: don't piss off subscribers, they're paying your bills.

[Pat Logsdon]

Stop being so harsh, if you read what I had wrote, you would understand my point of view. I don't care what you guys think, and you don't have to care what I think. I am not discussing the point of whether this site sells our information. You are missing the point again!
Sorry if I was harsh, but I did read what you said, and I understand your point of view. I was responding to a particular comment that you made.

I am not discussing the point of whether this site sells our information. You are missing the point again!
If you don't want distractions from the point you're trying to make, stick to your point.

And, like I also said, sites tell you what you WANT to hear, about how they DONT sell your information. You have no PROOF they abide by their own privacy policies or what not.
Seems to me that the burden of proof is on the accuser. Has a site sold your email address against your wishes? Did you read the privacy policy all the way through before you gave your information to them? If they did, and you did, you have legal recourse.

If not, you just have some more spam.

EDIT: I sense a disturbance in the Force...ah yes...I forsee that this thread will be split or locked... :mrgreen:

[Janak Parekh]

Note: this thread was split off from here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=158663#158663).


Jason, Janak, Ed, and the rest of the team have pretty much the same feelings towards spam. I highly doubt they are selling any personal information to anyone.
Just to make it official, I hate hate hate hate spam. I'd have walked out on the site a long time ago if I had seen any of our information sold. I think Jason would have walked out on himself too. :lol: Thanks for the vote of confidence, Quintin; I know you're initially a skeptic when it comes to stuff ;)

Regarding trusting software: Justin, I have to concur with others here. Do you use any third party software on your desktop computer, or do you just use MS Office and Internet Explorer? Or do you not use Windows, as you're lamenting the "crap" Microsoft gives you? I've used a ton of third-party Pocket PC software, and most of it is simply amazingly high-quality stuff.

--janak

[GoldKey]

What is your beef with the site having a subscription service? You've made comments like this in more than one thread
Yes, for a grand total of two threads - and both comments made today.

Last time I checked, two was more than one. But still you have not addressed what your beef is.


I have never seen anyone treated any differently because they are a subscriber or not.
Certainly not because you subscribe, but even Jason treats subscribers differently (quote from here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=158278#158278):
Note to self: don't piss off subscribers, they're paying your bills.

I think you took that totally out of context. I think the point Jason was making was not to piss anyone off because they are a potential subscriber. The person he was responding to ended their subscription before the trial was up because Jason pissed him off. He resigned up the next day. My point is, find one example in here where someone has been mistreated or not treated with the same courtesy as a subscriber.

[Janak Parekh]

Certainly not because you subscribe, but even Jason treats subscribers differently (quote from here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=158278#158278):
Note to self: don't piss off subscribers, they're paying your bills.
I think you took that totally out of context.
Yes, and in fact, easylife took out the :lol:. Note that Jason is making a joke. In all my interactions with him, I've found him to be a very straight and principled guy. easylife, If you really feel that you're going to be treated differently, even though we say you won't be, and I know for a fact I haven't treated anyone differently... what can I possibly say? If I was in your shoes and was convinced of that, I would have left the site.

--janak

[easylife]

Think about it - would Jason ban a subscriber? Would Jason even pursue actions against a subscriber that was acting up? My guess would be no because they pay him. Anyways, I won't go into detail about my "beef" because this thread would need to be split again, but all I can say is that even though no negative actions were intended to the non-subscribers, when the subscribers began to recieve special treatment (mobile forums, special contests) this had a negative imapct on non-subscribers like myself. It's like Newton's third law of Motion: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. By giving only subscribers more things, you are, in effect, also giving non-subscribers less. :|

I hope that we don't have to argue about this, but it has been shown that preferring members over others and especially allowing members to buy their way into the preferred member group is not good for a community where everyone is equal. :?

[Janak Parekh]

Think about it - would Jason ban a subscriber? Would Jason even pursue actions against a subscriber that was acting up?
Without hesitation: yes. I really can't believe you think one can buy us. :?

--janak

[easylife]

Without hesitation: yes. I really can't believe you think one can buy us. :?
I do, as a matter of fact. Better communities and webmasters have been 'bought' before. Look at PDABuzz - a community with 30,000+ members. Wes was seduced by HHMG with the alure of being able to get paid for working on the site - but HHMG would own it. Later on, HHMG yanks Wes' stinger and takes over the site putting known PPC-haters (RickB, DaveJ) in charge of it. So yes, I believe that you can be bought for the right price. :?

[Janak Parekh]

I do, as a matter of fact. Better communities and webmasters have been 'bought' before. Look at PDABuzz - a community with 30,000+ members. Wes was seduced by HHMG with the alure of being able to get paid for working on the site - but HHMG would own it. Later on, HHMG yanks Wes' stinger and takes over the site putting known PPC-haters (RickB, DaveJ) in charge of it. So yes, I believe that you can be bought for the right price. :?
Huh. I think it would be news to Wes that he was "bought". He couldn't afford the costs of the site, so he found a company who had promised him, over a handshake agreement, that he would maintain control of the site. The fact that they didn't doesn't mean he "sold out". You know, you should try checking out the cost of hosting providers before you keep on saying these things. Do you really know how much it costs to host a site that uses HUNDREDS of gigabytes of bandwidth each month? Plus buy devices to review? Plus the costs of running a business in general?

Quite frankly, and I apologize in advance if this comes out sounding rude, as it's an honest question: if you think we can or have been bought out, why do you post here?

--janak

[easylife]

Huh. I think it would be news to Wes that he was "bought". He couldn't afford the costs of the site, so he found a company who had promised him, over a handshake agreement, that he would maintain control of the site. The fact that they didn't doesn't mean he "sold out". You know, you should try checking out the cost of hosting providers before you keep on saying these things. Do you really know how much it costs to host a site that uses HUNDREDS of gigabytes of bandwidth each month? Plus buy devices to review? Plus the costs of running a business in general?
Yes, I know it's quite expensive. So what if Toshiba or another manufacturer offers to at first shoulder the web server costs? Do you think Dunn would refuse? Then what if they decidesto harvest the site and spam those who badmouthed Toshiba here or owned another PPC?

Quite frankly, and I apologize in advance if this comes out sounding rude, as it's an honest question: if you think we can or have been bought out, why do you post here?
It does sound rude, apology accepted, and I post here to help other PPC users that come to this site with questions. I know a fair bit about PPCs and know how to use Google quite well. :wink:

Anyways, Goldkey, this is an example where staff and subscribers jump on non-subscribers because they share different views about things. :cry:

[GoldKey]

Anyways, Goldkey, this is an example where staff and subscribers jump on non-subscribers because they share different views about things. :cry:

You seem to be inaccurately perciving that I am jumping on you because you are a non-subscriber. I jumped on you because your view was different from mine and has still not been backed up by any evidence. Your subscriber status has nothing to do with it. I can only speak for myself, but my response to you, or to anyone else on these boards is no different whether they are a subscriber or not. I have not seen any evidence that anyone else staff or members have done this either.

In fact, there have been posts from non-subscribers in this and the other post that have disagreed with you on this issue as well.

[easylife]

Well the "first" issue wasn't really about subscriber services to me... just my dismay at how you have to pay for everything nowadays.

Anyways, as for "evidence" you are staring at it but simply decide to invalidate it. Not my problem in convincing you on something you clearly are fixated on. I hope you enjoy your subscription and find it worth dropping $120 here, but don't harp on me because I don't, ok? :?

[GoldKey]

Well the "first" issue wasn't really about subscriber services to me... just my dismay at how you have to pay for everything nowadays.

Anyways, as for "evidence" you are staring at it but simply decide to invalidate it. Not my problem in convincing you on something you clearly are fixated on. I hope you enjoy your subscription and find it worth dropping $120 here, but don't harp on me because I don't, ok? :?

No one has harped on you because you don't. The root of your point all along has been that someone harps on you because you don't subscribe but there has been no evidence of this, so nothing for me to invalidate.

[easylife]

No one has harped on you because you don't. The root of your point all along has been that someone harps on you because you don't subscribe but there has been no evidence of this, so nothing for me to invalidate.
Apparently you misunderstand me - that is not my point. Therefore, you look at what I present and wonder what it has to do with what I'm talking about :) , but what my real point is is that when you divide a community as such there is no way for equality to exist. Obviously the subscribers are now the preferred members, so that leaves non-subscribers with the position of deferred members. Now, I'm not saying that I can specifically point out an instance in which I have been treated badly, but if you do see someone without the badge you subconsciously place them at a lower level than yourself (if you are a subscriber). In words, sure, you're civil, but we all know what you think. :? Now that I'm attacking the very foundation on which you gain your elevated status (subscriber services) you feel, by nature, to defend them. But there is no defense over what you have no control over - your subconscious thoughts. I'm no psychologist, but when you communicate with someone on a forum where everyone is exactly equal (everyone is a member) then you look at what they say and judge their helpfulness by their post, but now that the playing field is not level, the opinion of a subscriber, subconsciously, gets more merit than a comment of a non-subscriber. I think I forgot where I was going with this.... :roll: :lol:

[JustinGTP]

Hey! Wasn't this about me! Not fair! I want to be in the spotlight again! And yes, I hate spam too. Keep it lite you guys! 8)

-Justin.

[Jason Dunn]

I bet you even this site sells your information. Its a corrupt world out there. Its sad, I know.

You know, considering your just joined this site a few days ago, and that I traded five private messages with you trying to help you get your login name "just right", you've got some pretty big balls to be accusing me of violating the right to privacy that our readers have trusted me with.

What proof do you have that I have, or ever will, do anything of the sort?

[Jason Dunn]

If they do, that's yet another reason to not subscribe (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17524)... :(

We most certainly do not. And no one is forcing you to subscribe - you've obviously decided it's not worth it, and that's cool. You certainly don't need to justify the reasons why you're not a subscriber just because some people are saying that they're happy with it. :|

[Jason Dunn]

You have no PROOF they abide by their own privacy policies or what not.

The only proof anyone needs is my integrity. I do what I say, and nothing else. If I tell people I'm not going to sell their information, I won't. There are quite a few people who have [email protected] email addresses, so they'd know in a second that I sold them out if they started to get spam to that email address. And you can bet they'd be vocal about it in the forums.

Just who the hell are you to accuse me without any proof? What if I said that you were a child molester? Because, after all, by your rules no proof is actually required....you MIGHT be a child molester, right?

[JustinGTP]

No, I have never accused you to selling information. I merely suggested it may happen. People are different, and of all the forums I have seen the administration abuses their privileges. I'm sorry for lumping you in with the rest of them.

I have only talked to you, what, 5 times as you said, that isn't enough to know someone.

-Justin.

[Jason Dunn]

Certainly not because you subscribe, but even Jason treats subscribers differently (quote from here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=158278#158278):

Note to self: don't piss off subscribers, they're paying your bills.

You cleverly edited out the laughing face I put at the end - IT WAS A JOKE! :D You think that for $2 or $3 a month I'm going to allow someone to control my public opinion? You haven't been reading here long enough if you think that's the case.

Look, it seems evident that somehow this whole subscriber thing has pissed you off. I don't know how or why, but if you have specific problems, please contact me privately and I'll be happy to discuss them.

[JustinGTP]

Hey.

Jason, you are taking this way to seriously. First of all, the PROOF part was for all the other companies like email and Microsoft. Not for you. And like you just said, why is one person going to affect how you operate or how the rest of the people take to you.

-Justin.

[Jason Dunn]

Think about it - would Jason ban a subscriber? Would Jason even pursue actions against a subscriber that was acting up?

Absolutely. I haven't given Steven or Kati any special instructions about being given preferential treatment to subscribers. About the only thing I might do is contact them privately to ask "Look, you obviously care enough about this site to subscribe, so why are you acting like a putz?". If it's some random guy with one post who decides to break our rules, yeah, I might be less inclined to contact him. The same goes for people who post here a lot though - subscriber or not - I always try to find out why something is happening if it's a long-time member of the community. We gave Rirath a LOT of chances to stop being an idiot before we banned him.

You can accuse me with "maybe's" all you want, but until you see me act in a way that contradicts the commitments I've made to the readers of this site, you haven't a leg to stand on.

...when the subscribers began to receive special treatment (mobile forums, special contests) this had a negative impact on non-subscribers like myself. It's like Newton's third law of Motion: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Here's another law for you: it's called the law of economics. Do you think Vaja is giving me those $20 coupons for free? No - I have to trade them advertising space that I could otherwise sell, so I am in effect paying $20 for every $20 coupon. Do you think I could afford to do that for 12,000 registered forum members? Do you think I could afford to pay Fabrizio to do all the amazing things here that he does unless I could justify the enhancements as a return on the investment? I don't know if you run a Web site or an online community, but while it's easy enough to throw up a forum, it's hard to build a real community with real value.

The power of the community comes from the people here, and that can't be bought, but the infrastructure isn't free. When we had to move to the new server, it cost me over $1000 USD to get the new server set up, run both servers in parallel for a month, etc. Advertising pays for some of that, but I've been banking on the success of subscriber services for 6+ months - everything I've been working towards with this site hinges on the success of subscriber services, because the advertising market is, for the most part, not very big in the Pocket PC world.

Please try to understand where I'm coming from by walking in my shoes for a few days.

[Jason Dunn]

I do, as a matter of fact. Better communities and webmasters have been 'bought' before. Look at PDABuzz - a community with 30,000+ members. Wes was seduced by HHMG with the alure of being able to get paid for working on the site - but HHMG would own it. Later on, HHMG yanks Wes' stinger and takes over the site putting known PPC-haters (RickB, DaveJ) in charge of it. So yes, I believe that you can be bought for the right price. :?

Wow. That's an incredibly insulting statement about Wes Salmon, and I think you should apologize immediately. 8O

HHMG bought the SITE but they didn't buy Wes himself. There's a difference - I'm sure that if HHMG went to Wes and said "Ok, so we're going to sell off the email addresses from your forum members, and you're going to help us do it", Wes would have walked away in an instant. That's not what happened, and you know it - Wes wasn't given a choice by HHMG. Yes, he chose to sell it, but at the time it was the .com boom and everyone was buying up everything. Hell, the lure of full editorial control, a regular paycheck, but no headaches over infrastructure or advertising, is a very powerful one. If I was still allowed to run the site my way, I just might sell this site too...but that's probably not going to happen, so I won't worry about it. :wink:

What you're talking about is money buying the integrity of an individual, and that individual doing something for the money. You're saying that if someone offered me $20,000 I'd sell the 12,000 email addresses. I wouldn't. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but it's an offensive one. :?

[Jason Dunn]

Yes, I know it's quite expensive. So what if Toshiba or another manufacturer offers to at first shoulder the web server costs? Do you think Dunn would refuse? Then what if they decidesto harvest the site and spam those who badmouthed Toshiba here or owned another PPC?

I'd be very, very leery of having a relationship with an OEM like that. Our hosting costs are less than $500 US a month, so yes, I'd refuse. It would have to be a much bigger carrot. :wink: In terms of harvesting email and going after people who bad mouthed Toshiba, I'd sooner torpedo the site than let that happen.

Look, you seem to have a lot of "what if's" floating around in your head, and you also seem to have a lot of doubts about my personal integrity. What brought this on? Have you seen me act in a manner that suggests I'm in this for the money and nothing else? I won't pretend that it's extremely thrilling to be able to make a part-time living running a site like this, but trust me, there are far less stressful things I could be doing to earn a living. I'm in this for the love

Anyways, Goldkey, this is an example where staff and subscribers jump on non-subscribers because they share different views about things. :cry:

Heh heh. :lol: That's a funny statement. It's not that you're not a subscriber, it's that you're insulting my integrity and the integrity of this site. If a subscriber did that, I'd be saying exactly the same thing. Why look beyond the obvious? You're attacking me, I'm defending myself. Do you really think $2 a month would allow someone to bad-mouth this site in the forums while my team sat around and watched? :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

Well the "first" issue wasn't really about subscriber services to me... just my dismay at how you have to pay for everything nowadays.

Really? You have to pay to visit the site? You have to pay to read the reviews? You have to pay to post in the forums? Wow!

Please tell me who you're paying, because it's not me, so you're cheque is getting lost in the mail somehow. :roll: :lol:

[maximus]

Anyways, Goldkey, this is an example where staff and subscribers jump on non-subscribers because they share different views about things. :cry:

Let me share my personal experience. I was not a subscriber until two weeks ago ... No one ever jumped me back then. I found that the people on this site has an explicit agreement to value others' opinion. That is the reason I subscribed.

I noticed that there have been a lot of 'interesting' individuals in this board (people with hardcore love for a specific company, people with lack of respect of others' opinion/feeling, etc.) .. and I found that the best way to deal with these folks is to stay clear from their path.

If you want to secure your information, do not share any of your personal information. I for one, do not want any information about you :wink:

[maximus]

MY main concern is exactly that; ThirdParty. You can never trust them with their viruses, and other crap they load onto your pc and now, wait untill they do it to your ppc.
-Justin.

Now, with regards to trusting a third party. When you have your lunch at McDonalds .. how do you ensure that the Big Mac (tm) that you are eating is not poisoned by them ? How do you ensure that the meat in the Big Mac is not made from mouse ?

Sometime, in order to have a full life, it is necessary to take risk. :D

[JustinGTP]

ewwwww.... mcdonalds! how dare you! :idontthinkso: :pukeface2: :2gunfire: :bangin: :pukeface:

[dean_shan]

We gave Rirath a LOT of chances to stop being an idiot before we banned him.

So that's what happened to him. I wondered where he went.

[Pat Logsdon]

...my real point is is that when you divide a community as such there is no way for equality to exist. Obviously the subscribers are now the preferred members, so that leaves non-subscribers with the position of deferred members.
I think you're getting a little carried away here. It's a badge that says you paid $20 or more for some discounts or extra goodies, not a freakin' Star of David or something.

Holy cow! I think I just did a reverse application of Godwin's Law (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)! 8O

Now, I'm not saying that I can specifically point out an instance in which I have been treated badly, but if you do see someone without the badge you subconsciously place them at a lower level than yourself (if you are a subscriber). In words, sure, you're civil, but we all know what you think. :?
You, sir, are insulting me. YOU are attacking me (a subscriber) because of what I am. You are painting the subscribers with a broad brush, just as you accuse subscribers of doing to you. You also point out that you can't come up with any instances of subscribers treating you badly. Good job!

Now that I'm attacking the very foundation on which you gain your elevated status (subscriber services) you feel, by nature, to defend them. But there is no defense over what you have no control over - your subconscious thoughts.
Elevated status? So I paid $36 bucks to get a Vaja coupon and access to mobile forums, and that put me in some kind of elite club?!? Where's the caviar and little sandwiches? :wink:

Perhaps you'd make more of an impact in your crusade for equal rights if you stand in front of Costco with a protest sign about banning membership grocery stores.

...the opinion of a subscriber, subconsciously, gets more merit than a comment of a non-subscriber.
Sez you. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass if someone is a subscriber or not, I treat everyone the same, and respond to everyone the same. YOU seem to the be the one with the equality issues.

[jimski]

HP iPAQ 5450 - $649
Spare Batteries/Sleeves/SD Memory/Cases - $800
More than 30 current "third party" applications - $620
Knowing that I can log on to PPCT anytime to find answers - :mrgreen: "Priceless" :mrgreen:

My company bills me out at $125 per hour, and that means so far my four calls to HP and ATT (2 for each) customer care :twisted: have cost me (or more specifically my company) about $166.67 (at an average of 20 minutes per call - 15 minutes waiting, 4 minutes explaining and 1 minute to be told to "reset my device" (or some other lame advice).

Aside from all of the other subscription services, I have derived more accurate information regarding PPC's, Software, WiFi, etc. from this site than from any other forum or medium.

My subscription to this site helps to ensure that it continues to grow and never needs subsidies from manufacturers or other influential parties and that's all I need to understand. Hell, I pay more for my morning newspaper.

Hey Jason, I think I am going to charge my PPCT Subscription to my T&E account. After all, I am saving my company big dollars.

[maximus]

Hey Jason, I think I am going to charge my PPCT Subscription to my T&E account.

That is a very bright idea ! :D
If you work at my company, you will get a warning letter :mrgreen:

[GoldKey]

Obviously the subscribers are now the preferred members, so that leaves non-subscribers with the position of deferred members.

Sorry, but that is not obvious. Where is the connection that a subscriber is a preferred member?

Now, I'm not saying that I can specifically point out an instance in which I have been treated badly, but if you do see someone without the badge you subconsciously place them at a lower level than yourself (if you are a subscriber). In words, sure, you're civil, but we all know what you think. :? Now that I'm attacking the very foundation on which you gain your elevated status (subscriber services) you feel, by nature, to defend them. But there is no defense over what you have no control over - your subconscious thoughts. I'm no psychologist, but when you communicate with someone on a forum where everyone is exactly equal (everyone is a member) then you look at what they say and judge their helpfulness by their post, but now that the playing field is not level, the opinion of a subscriber, subconsciously, gets more merit than a comment of a non-subscriber. I think I forgot where I was going with this.... :roll: :lol:

Gross generalisations. First you are making definitive statements about what goes on in my subconscious mind and then are projecting those same statements on everyone who is a subscriber. :roll: To paraphrase the borg queen from ST: First Contact, "You percieve an inequality where none exists." The only difference between subscribers and non-subscribers is the discounts they get and the different ways of accessing the site. All the information is free. Frankly, there are non-subscribers that I have a very high opinion of and subscribers that I don't. I judge people solely on their opinions. So, don't write me off as some elitist. Having a higher opinion of someone because they subscribe would be stupid because anyone can buy that right, respect is not bought, it is earned.

I am done, clearly there is no changing either of our minds.

[PetiteFlower]

I, and I suspect most of the regular users of this site, have a lot of respect for intelligence. I judge people on this board SOLELY on the quality of their posts--Are they knowledgable, intelligent, clear, well-spoken, logical, respectful of other posters? Did they make an attempt to search for the answer themselves before asking a question? Do they try to start trouble by posting inflamatory statements? The answers to these questions have NOTHING to do with whether someone is a subscriber or not. The only thing that subscribing changes is how the site LOOKS.....all of the content is still free, it just allows you to customize the layout and view the reformatted mobile version. The badge is there I think because Jason wants to show his appreciation for those that help him keep his site going.

And trust me, if someone needed to be banned, even if they paid, the moderators would ban them. I wouldn't expect they'd get a refund either, not if they violated the rules!

You seem to be exceedingly paranoid, easylife, you haven't even given the community here a chance and already you are ASSUMING we are all judgemental jerks who see non-subscribers as second class citizens. That's insulting, and illogical. If you sat back and LISTENED (or read) for a while before opening your mouth, you could see that's not true.

[Steven Cedrone]

Well, I really think this thread has run it's useless...Errr, I mean useful course...

Thread locked...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator