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View Full Version : A Pill To Cure Compulsive Shopping


Janak Parekh
08-30-2003, 01:30 AM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2003/07/28/shoppingpill_030728' target='_blank'>http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/200...pingpill_030728</a><br /><br /></div>Are you guilty of buying too many PDAs? Or... PDA cases, styli, cradles, memory cards, what have you? Well, compulsive shopping might be a curable disorder. 8O<br /><br />"Anti-depressants can help people stop their compulsive shopping, according to new research. An American team has discovered that citalopram, sold as Cipramil, reduces compulsive shopping tendencies in people who 'binge shop.' Citalopram belongs to a class of anti-depressants called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). The medication works to raise the serotonin levels in the brain. It's thought that reduced transmission of serotonin plays a role in causing depression."<br /><br />Wait a second... does this mean our PDA obsession is stemming from depression? :lol:

Brad Adrian
08-30-2003, 01:34 AM
Geez. They make it sound like compulsive shopping is a BAD thing...!

Mitch D
08-30-2003, 01:36 AM
As much as I hate to admit this is true, three years ago I was diagnosed with clinical depression and I know I used to go shopping constantly for "toys" without thought to the things I was buying or the money I was spending. It caused more than it's share of problems at home.

Once I started taking medication for the depression this habit all but stopped. I think now before I spend, doesn't mean I don't buy toys I am just more selective in what I buy. I remember the shrink saying something about spending money on yourself made you feel better by relaesing some chemical in the brain.

Well that's my two cents worth.

dean_shan
08-30-2003, 02:00 AM
I need some of that for my Grandma.

yodacai
08-30-2003, 02:09 AM
Compulsive Shopping is classified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) as an Impulse Control Disorder. It is in the same broad category as say Pathological Gambling (technically, 312.30 Impulse-Control Disorders NOS). Essentially, in this classification of disorders, the individual feels an increased sense of tension or arousal before committing the act (shopping, gambling, etc.) and then experiences pleasure, gratification, or relief at the time of the committed act. Quite a bit of the current research suggests that these Impulse-Control Disorders may be organic in nature and thus the meds have a positive effect on the individual. SSRI's (i.e. Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil) are also used to treat Obsessive-Compulsive disorder. Seems seritonin plays an important role within the brain. Other therapy has been successful in treatment of impulse control, but I won't go into that here (a tad bit off topic).

Well, there you go boys and girls, your boring mental health education for the day. :D

PS-
Any other mental health professionals that would like to add or correct my statements, please step in and do so. I am definately not the ultimate authority in this field. I have even been known to be wrong once or twice... just ask my wife! :lol:

Thinkingmandavid
08-30-2003, 02:34 AM
I have only owned two pda's so far in my life. I see a lot I would like to buy, but when it comes time to buy them it is hard for me because I find it hard to justify the funds right now. When I can afford the funds more comfortably then I will do so. I have been looking at a 2215 and a 1940.
I can get a 1940 for 200, still thinking about it.

Barak
08-30-2003, 02:50 AM
As someone who provides counseling for children and adults with depression and anxiety, medications AND counseling is the best approach.

I actually treated a man who had OCD and his ritual included cleaning the screen of his PDA at least 25 times a day. He eventually would ruin the PDA and have to buy another one - leading to more depression because of the cost factor.

That's the problem with Anxiety Disorders such as OCD, as most people will also have depression with it because disorders such as OCD really inhibit normal functioning. People's lives get turned upside down and inside out.

Just my .02

bazza
08-30-2003, 02:54 AM
Interesting! I guess if someone made the perfect PDA then we would only buy it once! :D

So do you wait for ever and do nothing or do you take the trip and spend money? I think it relates more to being frustrated by the chasm between what we want and what technology can deliver!!

For me I'll take every little step forwards as long as my bank account will allow me!!

Depressed - only because technology won't deliver the perfect PDA - imagine:

Active Sync works
There is no lag time opening applications
It is not out of date when you buy it
Connectivity is universal
Memory is infinite
Multiple applications can be running at the same time
Software actually works the first time and does what you want :bad-words:

- we can still dream and in the meantime spend lots of money and become depressed - not spending money because we are depressed!!!

" Always proceed along tunnels behind or alongside the Dalek. This will reduce your chances of accidental extermination considerably" - Dalek survival guide.

yodacai
08-30-2003, 03:05 AM
As someone who provides counseling for children and adults with depression and anxiety, medications AND counseling is the best approach.

I actually treated a man who had OCD and his ritual included cleaning the screen of his PDA at least 25 times a day. He eventually would ruin the PDA and have to buy another one - leading to more depression because of the cost factor.

That's the problem with Anxiety Disorders such as OCD, as most people will also have depression with it because disorders such as OCD really inhibit normal functioning. People's lives get turned upside down and inside out.

Just my .02

It is interesting how those suffering from impulsive and/or anxiety disorders both respond to SSRIs as they are two different "beasts" on the opposite ends of the spectrum (one does a behavior for the "high" they get afterwards and the other does the behavior to reduce anxiety). More and more research is suggesting that many mental disorders may be organic in nature. Kind of fuels that age old argument of "nature vs. nurture."

lurch
08-30-2003, 04:12 AM
Yet another mis-diagnosis of the symptoms. And an incorrect solution at that!!

"I have a problem with buying too many PDAs compulsively!"

"Well, let's just prescribe some meds and train you not to do that!"

Totally missing the real problem and trying to solve it by modifying external behavior!!! Get to the heart, that's the root of it!

Analogy
Problem: my lawn is brown in patches
External Solution: let's spray paint it green
Real solution: let's kill the grubs under the grass making it turn brown, then in time it will turn green again

Sheesh!

Things just keep getting crazier and crazier, especially when things like bigorexia (http://www.anred.com/musdys.html) are classified as "diseases".

felixdd
08-30-2003, 05:53 AM
Yet another mis-diagnosis of the symptoms. And an incorrect solution at that!!

"I have a problem with buying too many PDAs compulsively!"

"Well, let's just prescribe some meds and train you not to do that!"

Totally missing the real problem and trying to solve it by modifying external behavior!!! Get to the heart, that's the root of it!

Analogy
Problem: my lawn is brown in patches
External Solution: let's spray paint it green
Real solution: let's kill the grubs under the grass making it turn brown, then in time it will turn green again

Sheesh!

Things just keep getting crazier and crazier, especially when things like bigorexia (http://www.anred.com/musdys.html) are classified as "diseases".

Lurch: are you implying that external behavior is on a level deeper than (that is, it causes) biological phenomenon? Your opinion seems sort of strong.

For many affective disorders like depression, schizophrenia, OCD, and even things like phobias and anxiety disorders, there have been many physiological traits that come with these disorders. Now whether these are the cause or the effect is still in question, but much research has also shown that creating these physiological features also cause the behavioral parallels in mice and other animals -- which strongly suggests that the behavioral manifestations of the depression has a physiological cause. Besides, the presence of a genetic correlate with depression, schizophrenia, etc. (studies of identical twins help to untangle between nature and nurture since identical twins have the same genetic makeup but may have slightly varied growing environments) suggest an organic cause to many affective disorders.

Of course this doesn't mean that drugs alone can cure these crippling illnesses. Mental support and psychological aid is instrumental to a healthy recovery. Combined in the right way, a therapy with both "talk" and "drugs" can bring about a swift and complete recovery.

What's interesting is that there has also been studies showing that SSRI's depression-alleviating effects isn't completely caused by a simple rise in serotonin level. Mainly, it takes 2-3 weeks of an SSRI regiment before behavioral alterations are seen, all the while serotonin levels have been at a prolonged, elevated level. As well, some SSRI's seem to elevate serotonin but have minimal to no effect on the depression (or its parallels in animal testing). Even stranger is the fact that there are drugs that alter the levels of other chemicals like dopamine or norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and have antidepressant effects -- they are used to treat depressant. Of course, you also have cocaine and amphetamine, which inhibits the reuptake of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine -- but are downright horrible as antidepressants (well they are addictive and all...).

So bottom line: the "serotonin" hypothesis of depression isn't the be-all end-all. Neither is the "dopamine" hypothesis. Neuroscientists and psychologists are wracking their brains ( :roll: ) at the real cause, but the answer is still elusive.


It is interesting how those suffering from impulsive and/or anxiety disorders both respond to SSRIs as they are two different "beasts" on the opposite ends of the spectrum (one does a behavior for the "high" they get afterwards and the other does the behavior to reduce anxiety).

It's even stranger when they prescribe Ritalin (stimulant) to a kid with ADHD (attention deficit hyperactive disorder). Supposedly the internal, physiological stimulation creates a sort of "behavioral quieting" because it takes the body to an optimal stimulation level. Before the drug is taken, then, the body is understimulated, so the person seeks out sources of stimulation -- seen through a short attention span, hyperactive behavior, etc. (by the way, this is an example of behavior-driven changes in physiological status -- achieveing an optimal internal state through behavior. So it goes both ways ;) )

lurch
08-30-2003, 06:58 AM
Lurch: are you implying that external behavior is on a level deeper than (that is, it causes) biological phenomenon? Your opinion seems sort of strong.
Well yes and no. There's no question that many "negative" external behaviors are due to a messed up inside, so-to-speak. That is, they're directly related to chemical imbalances, etc. But then again, some other behaviors aren't. Some are driven by an intense feeling of need, or want, or seemingly uncontrollable urges.
BUT, what I feel strongly about is not those things, but even deeper than that. What causes that chemical imbalance? What causes those deep needs/desires that people try to fulfill no matter what? And can't seem to quench? Most of the time the treatment seems to be meds (which may or may not be required), and behavior adjustment. But that doesn't solve the problem, it just dulls it, or makes it less in intensity, or allows a person to ignore it, etc. The problem still exists, those solutions are just "trappings" to make it look better.
Psychologists and whatnot give names to these problems like "bigorexia" or "paranoid schizophrenia" or whatever else, but all those names mean are "it's not your fault, you are not responsible for what's happening, it's because your chemicals are off, so you're cleared from responsibility".
It's late, I'm tired, my mind isn't working right (maybe I have a chemical imbalance? :) ) but here's my point, here is the answer:
Jesus Christ.
He can fix chemical imbalances. He is the round peg that fits in the round hole in everyone's heart that they keep trying to stuff square pegs and triangular pegs into (compulsiveness, etc.).

Take it as you will, but that's what I'm getting at.. no beating around the bush! :D

Now I'm off to bed :zzz:

hollis_f
08-30-2003, 08:00 AM
Ah! Suddenly it all becomes clear. Obviously the PDA companies have known about this research for many years and utilised it to their own benefit by setting up a positive feedback loop -

Depressed user buys new PPC believing the advertising.
User experiences dust/Activesync/stupid bluetooth implementation/insert your fave PPC niggle here.
User becomes more depressed leading to an increase in their impulse control disorder.
User buys new PPC, believing the advertising.
etc

sfjlittel
08-30-2003, 10:29 AM
[
It's late, I'm tired, my mind isn't working right (maybe I have a chemical imbalance? :) ) but here's my point, here is the answer:
Jesus Christ.
He can fix chemical imbalances. He is the round peg that fits in the round hole in everyone's heart that they keep trying to stuff square pegs and triangular pegs into (compulsiveness, etc.).

Take it as you will, but that's what I'm getting at.. no beating around the bush! :D

Now I'm off to bed :zzz:

I was with you untill you brought this up. But having seen your avatar it did not really surprice me...
But believe what you want to believe, there is no right or wrong.

yodacai
08-30-2003, 11:09 AM
Lurch said:

It's late, I'm tired, my mind isn't working right (maybe I have a chemical imbalance? :) ) but here's my point, here is the answer:
Jesus Christ.
He can fix chemical imbalances. He is the round peg that fits in the round hole in everyone's heart that they keep trying to stuff square pegs and triangular pegs into (compulsiveness, etc.).
Take it as you will, but that's what I'm getting at.. no beating around the bush! :D
Now I'm off to bed :zzz:

*Sorry about the "quote," I somehow messed it up when typing my message*

Lurch, I understand what you are trying to say. I am a Pentacostal Christian as well as a clinical mental health therapist. There are times that the Lord heals spontaneously, while there are other times that he uses people as tools to do his healing (i.e. physicians, psychologists, MFTs, etc.). Unfortunately, I believe that the day Adam and Eve sinned, our body's began to die... physically and mentally.

Unfortunately, as much as we would like to deny it, the fields of psychology and psychiatry are still in there infancy... maybe even more arts rather than sciences. One thing is for sure, we are making scientific headway in the battle against mental disorders everyday. Currently, empirical evidence has shown that the most effective form of treatment for most disorders are both pharmaco and traditional psychotherapy combined.

You are correct in saying that the meds do not cure the problems. In fact, they manage the symptoms so as the individual can work on the resolution of the problem. Sadly, there are currently no known "cures" for many forms of psychopathology (i.e. schizophrenia, bipolar, dementia, etc.).

That is not to say that all disorders or problems require meds. Many issues can be overcome with good old fashion psycho or behavioral therapy. I also think that there is an over prescribing of meds. Yes, I do think that most of this is done by family physicians or APRNs rather than specialist like psychiatrist, or now in some states, psychologists.

Anyhow, I respect your opinion. The problem is that there is a severe negative stigma of mental health in our society. The mental health of a person is as important, if not more so, than one's physical health. After all, it is the mind/brain that controls the rest of the body! :D

Sorry for taking up all the bandwidth... I enjoy technology but do not get to comment on it much since much of the information is above my skill level. But, when something comes along in my field, I have to take advantage of it. :D

GoldKey
08-30-2003, 12:00 PM
[
It's late, I'm tired, my mind isn't working right (maybe I have a chemical imbalance? :) ) but here's my point, here is the answer:
Jesus Christ.
He can fix chemical imbalances. He is the round peg that fits in the round hole in everyone's heart that they keep trying to stuff square pegs and triangular pegs into (compulsiveness, etc.).

Take it as you will, but that's what I'm getting at.. no beating around the bush! :D

Now I'm off to bed :zzz:


While he can do anything, what it seems like you are saying is that we shouldn't fix things that are in our power to fix. Are you saying that since a chemical imbalance CAN be cured by Jesus, then we should not use the medications that have been developed for the same probelm? I understand there are a miniority of religious groups that actually believe this, and no disrespect intended, but I have always believed God helps those who help themselves. IE, if I were dying of a disease, I could have faith that God will save me, but that sure does not mean I am not going to be treated by a doctor also, that doctor may be the hands that he works through. A better analogy is - your roof is leaking, do you just leave it to God and faith, or do you call a roofer?

sfjlittel
08-30-2003, 12:56 PM
While he can do anything, what it seems like you are saying is that we shouldn't fix things that are in our power to fix. Are you saying that since a chemical imbalance CAN be cured by Jesus, then we should not use the medications that have been developed for the same probelm? I understand there are a miniority of religious groups that actually believe this, and no disrespect intended, but I have always believed God helps those who help themselves. IE, if I were dying of a disease, I could have faith that God will save me, but that sure does not mean I am not going to be treated by a doctor also, that doctor may be the hands that he works through. A better analogy is - your roof is leaking, do you just leave it to God and faith, or do you call a roofer?

the problem with the example is that you (or another human being) are the creator (god) of the house. what matters is that it is not god that created the house but a human being...

Timothy Rapson
08-30-2003, 01:06 PM
Unfortunately, as much as we would like to deny it, the fields of psychology and psychiatry are still in there infancy... maybe even more arts rather than sciences. :D

Zounds! An honest mental health worker who gets it! I am awed by your frankness.




RE: the subject at hand.

As one guy once said. "I know money can't buy happiness, but it's not happiness I want-it's MONEY."

It is not really mental health I want, I want an excuse to buy a PDA. And I want that PDA to be and do what I want it to be and do. We have control over so little in our modern lives.

My serotonins jump and do back flips all the time anyway. My son says I am the happiest man on earth. But, I still NEED a 512 MB PPC with VGA, fold out full sized keyboard, and 4 megapixel video/still camera built-in, that is smaller than my current PDA.

butch
08-30-2003, 01:59 PM
Where can I buy those pills? I need them right now, I don't care how much they cost! LOL :lol: Sorry.

surur
08-30-2003, 02:16 PM
RE: the subject at hand.

As one guy once said. "I know money can't buy happiness, but it's not happiness I want-it's MONEY."

People often think that about money and happiness, but I was quite disenchanted with money when I admitted an international banker worth millions, who could just not see the point of going on with life. Sometimes I think what we really live for is the struggle to get what we want, not the object itself.

Could it be possible we would all be less happy if we finally did get the perfect pocketpc? Thats a kind of scary thought, isn't it. Think how much more happiness clean running water brings in africa, as apposed to the UK, where it might contribute to my health, but doesn't even feature on the things that makes me happy.

That has been the nice thing about computers, there has always been progress, and things getting shinier and better (hopefully), but when this cycle finally breaks down there is going to be a huge amount of very unhappy geeks.

Surur

GoldKey
08-30-2003, 03:16 PM
the problem with the example is that you (or another human being) are the creator (god) of the house. what matters is that it is not god that created the house but a human being...

OK, your lawn is dying, do you spray pestisiced/fertilizer or whatever else is needed or just have faith that it will get better if it is God's will.

GoldKey
08-30-2003, 03:18 PM
RE: the subject at hand.

As one guy once said. "I know money can't buy happiness, but it's not happiness I want-it's MONEY."


No, money can't buy happiness, but it can get rid of unhappyiness. Say you are highly in debt and that has you down, but otherwise you are very happy with your life, family, etc. Money could get rid of the unhappiness thus making you happy.

griph
08-30-2003, 03:36 PM
For one who is actually taking Cipramil I have been following this thread with some interest - and I have to say the opinions of some are rather extreme! There is a wide range of depressive illnesses and a range of severity. I cannot accept that to develop a belief in something I do not believe in could have helped me at all. I will (if you dont mind) leave the belief in a superior being to others.

However, in my case, the underlying issues have been mainly due to coming to terms with family illness whilst becoming the sole bread winner. This has been an issue for a number of years and is insidious in that it creeps up you unawares.

Compulsive eating, compulsive buying (PDA's gadgets, accessories), workaholism and other such habits have all been resolved with little or no side effects from the drug, and for the first time in years I am feeling very much better, with a comensursate improvement to my own self image.

I dont believe that I need conselling too - had my problem been more serious then perhaps ... But hey! I like the fact that I don't automatically buy up anymore, have nails and am able to loose weight consistently for the first time in years is a big boon to one's self esteem.

But - lets keep this discussion in proportion.

surur
08-30-2003, 04:03 PM
No, money can't buy happiness, but it can get rid of unhappyiness. Say you are highly in debt and that has you down, but otherwise you are very happy with your life, family, etc. Money could get rid of the unhappiness thus making you happy.

Just to correctly attribute that quote, Tmothy Rapson said RE: the subject at hand.

As one guy once said. "I know money can't buy happiness, but it's not happiness I want-it's MONEY.".

The quote implies that its better to have money than happiness, but of course all we want is freedom from hardships. However I wonder if even that is ideal, as even that, in a few years, wont make us happy anymore.

Regarding the use of anti-depressants, some "thinking therapies" last much longer in maintaining improvement in mood than tablets, and are really underused and under available.

I do however subscribe to the view of the brain as a very complex machine, with intermeshed hardware and software, and Im sure one day in the future we will be able to directly manipulate the mind, and make psychiatry a science, not an art.

Surur

lurch
08-30-2003, 04:57 PM
While he can do anything, what it seems like you are saying is that we shouldn't fix things that are in our power to fix. Are you saying that since a chemical imbalance CAN be cured by Jesus, then we should not use the medications that have been developed for the same probelm?
No, that's not what I was saying, sorry if it read that way! We are living in a sin-cursed world (as evidenced by things like compulsive shopping among TONS of other stuff) and we do have messed up bodies. We have chemical imbalances and lots of other stuff that goes wrong! And medicine is there to help with that, and if it's prescribed by a doctor, then by all means, it can be very helpful in mitigating some of the problems, so take the meds!!! If I'm sick, I'm a-goin' to the doc! :)
BUT, most of the time the medicine doesn't cure the problem (if it does, great!) it just helps make it less apparent. The real problem still exists. SIN. But this is mostly disregarded by people because they fail to see the connection between the physical, mental, and spiritual.

Janak Parekh
08-30-2003, 05:45 PM
The real problem still exists. SIN.
I'm going to tread very lightly here and say that we're in danger of veering sharply off-topic into something that's been debated on and off for millennia, and ask everyone not to. Please stick to the topic on hand. Thanks.

--janak

PetiteFlower
08-30-2003, 06:27 PM
Gee I thought this was a PPC site, not a religious debate forum, can we cool it with the preaching PLEASE?

Not everyone who buys things they don't need has a disorder and is in need of medication or other treatments. There are a lot of other factors that go into diagnosing a disorder, and determining the necessary treatment.

Prozac doesn't stop you from shopping, it helps keep you from being depressed. IF you are buying because you're depressed, then treating the depression will probably stop the compulsive buying. But if you're shopping for another reason, it's not going to do anything.

yodacai
08-30-2003, 08:40 PM
Not everyone who buys things they don't need has a disorder and is in need of medication or other treatments. There are a lot of other factors that go into diagnosing a disorder, and determining the necessary treatment.

Prozac doesn't stop you from shopping, it helps keep you from being depressed. IF you are buying because you're depressed, then treating the depression will probably stop the compulsive buying. But if you're shopping for another reason, it's not going to do anything.

You are absolutely correct in the fact that there are strict guidelines that need to be observed in the diagnosis of mental disorders. In the U.S., the defacto guide is the DSM-IVTR. I encourage those who are interested to go to the library or a book store and just thumb through it. It lists every classified disorder and the criteria for diagnosis (although, it is continually being revised).

As for Prozac, impulse-control disorders are different than depression. You are correct in that depression may lead people to do things in excess to make them feel better, but when it comes to compulsive shopping/over eating/gambling, these are done by people to get a "high." Basically, the motivation for the behavior is what id different. Why depression, anxiety, and impulse-control disorders are all affected by SSRIs, I am not technically sure as I am not a physician. So, any physicians out there want to chime in!?
:)

hollis_f
08-30-2003, 09:12 PM
As for Prozac, impulse-control disorders are different than depression. You are correct in that depression may lead people to do things in excess to make them feel better, but when it comes to compulsive shopping/over eating/gambling, these are done by people to get a "high." Basically, the motivation for the behavior is what id different. Why depression, anxiety, and impulse-control disorders are all affected by SSRIs, I am not technically sure as I am not a physician. So, any physicians out there want to chime in!?
:) Not a physician, but I do know a bit about the topic.

It's because humans have evolved, and evolution can be quite inefficient as it can only work with what it's already got. That means that a lot of biological processes and structures get 'kidnapped' for other uses. The small bones in your ear, for example, were originally parts of the jawbone.

So when the human brain started getting more and more complex it had to use the existing systems for multiple applications. And serotonin (or 5-HT) had to be used for a lot of different systems. There are many types of receptors for 5-HT. Some of them seem to be involved with depression, others with sexual function, yet others are involved with the digestive tract.

The ideal is to find a drug that only affects the type of receptor you're aiming for. But this isn't easy - so you end up with various side-effects. Normally these are totally unwanted, but sometimes they can turn out to have unexpected benefits - as when it was found that a side-effect of SSRIs was to help with OCD.

Ed Hansberry
08-30-2003, 09:50 PM
It's because humans have evolved, and evolution can be quite inefficient as it can only work with what it's already got. That means that a lot of biological processes and structures get 'kidnapped' for other uses.
No, evolution claims that it can generate more advanced structures and organisms out of simpler ones. It can also evolve new things from nothing. Things don't get kidnapped either. Evolutionary theory claims that it is random chance that allows it to work over billions and billions of years and that dictates that not only is it highly improbable that anything evolves, it is almost 100% unlikely that similar or identical structures would evolve in separate species.

Billions and billions of years... hmmmm, I wonder if they realize the universe is only 13.7B years old, ±130,000 years, and the Earth is around 3.5B years old. :roll:

jtod
08-30-2003, 10:05 PM
I thought I should chime in here since I am a clinical psychologist and a PDA enthusiast. Individuals who engage in "compulsive" behaviors are significantly disabled by the behavior. Usually, the compulsion results in social and/or occupational disturbance. Buying one too many PDAs is not a compulsion. If you were to spend every penny you own on PDAs to the detriment of yourself and your family, then that would constitute a compulsion.

These individuals need treatment, since they can cause harm to themselves and to the one's they love. Treatment is usually a combination of behavior therapy and medication. In my opinion, the medication is useful to get these individuals to focus and have enough energy to engage in a demanding behavioral treatment. Certainly, taking medications alone can be effective in some cases.

I support spirituality and its ability to help people in times of crisis. My perspective is do what works best for you and be honest with yourself. Only then can real change be achieved.

John

surur
08-30-2003, 10:08 PM
It's because humans have evolved, and evolution can be quite inefficient as it can only work with what it's already got. That means that a lot of biological processes and structures get 'kidnapped' for other uses.
No, evolution claims that it can generate more advanced structures and organisms out of simpler ones. It can also evolve new things from nothing. Things don't get kidnapped either. Evolutionary theory claims that it is random chance that allows it to work over billions and billions of years and that dictates that not only is it highly improbable that anything evolves, it is almost 100% unlikely that similar or identical structures would evolve in separate species.

Billions and billions of years... hmmmm, I wonder if they realize the universe is only 13.7B years old, ±130,000 years, and the Earth is around 3.5B years old. :roll:

A creationist in our mids! who would have thought. So the hand, the foot and the hoof are not related in some way? And all advanced multicellular creatures do not develop from an egg? And we dont have similar genes doing diffrent things in bacteria. Evolution is a much studied and verified theory, with plenty of evidence to back it up. The very mess our biological systems are tells us that there was no guiding hand behind our design. Did God not intend us to read then, since the whole population is getting shortsighted because of this?

I could go on, but I guess there might not be much point.

Surur

yodacai
08-30-2003, 11:28 PM
I thought I should chime in here since I am a clinical psychologist and a PDA enthusiast. Individuals who engage in "compulsive" behaviors are significantly disabled by the behavior. Usually, the compulsion results in social and/or occupational disturbance. Buying one too many PDAs is not a compulsion. If you were to spend every penny you own on PDAs to the detriment of yourself and your family, then that would constitute a compulsion.

These individuals need treatment, since they can cause harm to themselves and to the one's they love. Treatment is usually a combination of behavior therapy and medication. In my opinion, the medication is useful to get these individuals to focus and have enough energy to engage in a demanding behavioral treatment. Certainly, taking medications alone can be effective in some cases.

I support spirituality and its ability to help people in times of crisis. My perspective is do what works best for you and be honest with yourself. Only then can real change be achieved.

John

I whole heardedly agree. I was just flipping through my DSM and quite a few of the disorders have the unifying factor of "significant" impairment to everyday life. A broad, determing factor for me is if the issue is causing significant distress to the point of impairing everyday functioning, then the problem needs to have prefessional intervention. Obviously, this is not the say all determing factor, but more of a "heads up" that there may be a possible disorder.

Even though I myself am a Christian, I believe that if a belief, religion, or spirituality provides a positive impact in the client's life, I would encourage it (even though I may not necessarily agree with it). This thought has empirical basis. There have been numerous studies that confirm those who are spiritial or religious, regardless of the belief, tend to be healthier mentally. Is this the good old fashion "placebo effect" at work? Who knows. I myself believe that it is the good Lord. Others may believe it is Allah or some other deity. The point is people tend to feel better about themselves and able to cope more effectively with everyday problems/stressor when they are active participants in a religion or spirituality.

felixdd
08-31-2003, 02:11 AM
It's because humans have evolved, and evolution can be quite inefficient as it can only work with what it's already got. That means that a lot of biological processes and structures get 'kidnapped' for other uses. The small bones in your ear, for example, were originally parts of the jawbone.

So when the human brain started getting more and more complex it had to use the existing systems for multiple applications. And serotonin (or 5-HT) had to be used for a lot of different systems. There are many types of receptors for 5-HT. Some of them seem to be involved with depression, others with sexual function, yet others are involved with the digestive tract.

The ideal is to find a drug that only affects the type of receptor you're aiming for. But this isn't easy - so you end up with various side-effects. Normally these are totally unwanted, but sometimes they can turn out to have unexpected benefits - as when it was found that a side-effect of SSRIs was to help with OCD.

I had already talked about that in my previous post -- 5-HT is implicated in mood states, consciousness, etc. etc. But the simple claim that lot 5-HT level contributes to a depressed mood state is full of holes and flaws. SSRI's act to prevent reuptake of 5-HT (and on some cases, NE and DA), but the patterns of their effects suggests that their reuptake action might not be contributing much to mood elevation/stabilization.


No, evolution claims that it can generate more advanced structures and organisms out of simpler ones. It can also evolve new things from nothing. Things don't get kidnapped either. Evolutionary theory claims that it is random chance that allows it to work over billions and billions of years and that dictates that not only is it highly improbable that anything evolves, it is almost 100% unlikely that similar or identical structures would evolve in separate species.


Not quite. Evolution is the process by which organisms become more appropriately equipped to be successful in the environment in which they live. The mechanism that accomplishes this feat is Darwin's natural selection -- a phenomenon by which the animal with the genes most advantageous in its current environment is able to pass on these genes to the next generation. This may mean that the trait is something that increases the survivability (viability) of the animal, or a trait that simply allows it to reproduce more (fertility).

Evolutionary theories do not claim that it takes billions of years for these changes to come about (at least, the lectures that I've attended did not claim that) -- in fact, studies of bird populations segregated from each other on tropical islands for as brief as 40 years have shown divergent evolution: they were beginning to exhibit different traits (though I couldn't remember if they can still combine and produce viable offspring, which is a sign of the appearance of a new species). Evolution isn't an on and off thing -- it's dynamic and occurs continuously. It's even occuring right now.

Similar structures do occur between species -- this is called "convergent evolution". Evolution is a blind force and has no direction -- it doesn't make things "better" for the long run. It just makes it so the animal better equipped in today's environment can pass on the "better" traits to tomorrow's animals -- but it can also be possible that by tomorrow these traits are obselete or even a disadvantage (though it's unlikely that environments can change so drastically and quickly). Here's a link that outlines examples of real-life convergent evolution (I just googled it up) in "antifreeze genes" in fish, the wings of hummingbirds, pterodactyls and bats, and the anteater's curious appearance.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/4/l_014_01.html.

Timothy Rapson
08-31-2003, 02:14 AM
Let's see, drugs, mental health, general psychology, sin, God, evolution, PPCs. this thread is made for a site called PocketPCthoughts.

How about plain old letting our relationship with our PDAs take on an anthropomorphic life of it's own.

Personally, I have not named any of my PDAs, but I really want to have it with me all the time. If I get two blocks from the house and realize I don't have all my info, books, pictures, my LIFE, I turn myself around and go get them. I know that if I am ever trapped (as I was at the at the driver's license office this week for over 2 hours!) I have an entertaining, informative, useful "friend" right in my pocket. It is a real psychological enhancement to have it with me. Even if I spent 5 times the $300 or so per year I spend on it, it would be worth it.


OK, I gotta say this on the evolution deal. You don't have to be a special creationist to believe there are problems with the basic theory of evolution as it is currently taught, and the proponents can be as chauvanistic, as emotional, as "religious" as the detractors.


And so this thread goes down in history as one of the most bizarre I have EVER participated in.

felixdd
08-31-2003, 02:16 AM
Hey it ain't my fault people started talking about my two favorite topics (and what I'm studying at school): biology and neuroscience ;)

Crystal Eitle
08-31-2003, 02:27 AM
As someone who has struggled with depression since I was 14 (and possibly even before that), I have to put in my 2 cents here.

The depression I've been dealing with for half my life definitely has a physical component. I am constantly striving to improve and learn more about myself, and I have been through self-help books, therapy and religion to try and get out of being depressed. (Spirituality helps, but I have trouble going to church because of problems I invariably encounter with churches [which are, after all, a human institution].)

ANYWAY, I'd always resisted going on medication. I thought doing so would be a sign of weakness, or (as Aaron suggested), going after the symptom instead of the root of the problem. But after years of attacking the roots and seeing no improvement, things got to such an awful point that I was in danger of killing myself. I was terrified, I thought I was going to die, and I finally made an appointment to see my doctor about going on medication.

I've been on antidepressants now for six months, and the change they've made in my life is incredible. I'm still the same person, and I still feel the full range of emotions. I still feel sad once in a while - sometimes terribly sad (I'm a very emotional person). But the difference is, I'm better able to think rationally about my problems, and talk myself out of being upset. I bounce back much more easily from setbacks, whereas before, the least problem would get me to thinking about all my problems, and I would just want to lay down and die. Since being on medication, I'm able to feel happiness when I ought to. Previously, I would recognize when I should be happy, but I was unable to actually feel it.

Physically, my depression took the form of extreme fatigue and an inability to think clearly. I wanted to sleep constantly, and slept 12-14 hours a day, if I could.

The first changes I noticed after going on antidepressants were physical. I had much more energy, slept more deeply at night, and went from needing 12 hours of sleep to only needing 7 or 8. After about two or three weeks of being on medication, the emotional benefits started to kick in.

I still have issues and problems I need to work on, just like everyone does. But now the work I do actually has an effect. I expect to accomplish much more in all facets of my life.

There have been a couple negative side effects. Most notably, my memory's not what it used to be, especially my short-term memory.

(Incidentally, I'm also much less prone to make impulse purchases).

In short, I would recommend to anyone who is depressed that they at least consider medication. I consider some forms of depression to be a physical condition like diabetes or heart disease. There is no shame in taking medication to treat a physical illness (which I am convinced had a large part to play in my depression).

GoldKey
08-31-2003, 02:36 AM
it is almost 100% unlikely that similar or identical structures would evolve in separate species.


Actually the basic idea of flight in animals and basic wing structure has evolved repeatedly and seperately. (Birds, Insects, and Bats)

Ed Hansberry
08-31-2003, 04:34 AM
it is almost 100% unlikely that similar or identical structures would evolve in separate species.


Actually the basic idea of flight in animals and basic wing structure has evolved repeatedly and seperately. (Birds, Insects, and Bats)
No. It exists repeatedly. People forget the theory of evolution is not the law of evolution. It is a unique theory though. It is the only one that is assumed to be true and no matter what the evidence, it is the evidence that is shaped to the theory and not the theory shaped to the evidence.

Janak Parekh
08-31-2003, 04:44 AM
Geez, guys... we had some fantastic insightful discussion here about OCD, shopping, depression, and whatnot, and we have to devolve into the evolution vs. creationism debate, another one that goes for millennia?

Timothy, you hit the nail on the head: this is indeed the most bizarre thread ever. I'm locking it. :(

--janak