Ken & Andy Jump on Toshiba: Part 2

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.kenradio.com/audio/jul15.asx' target='_blank'>http://www.kenradio.com/audio/jul15.asx</a><br /><br /></div>Jason Clark writes in:<br /><br />"Hey, not to beat a dead horse, but Ken and Andy picked up on the story again at the beginning of the show. Basically, they slammed any Pocket PC hardware maker for orphaning units, and recommend that PDA buyers ask for a written guarantee that their unit will be upgradeable before purchasing. They also mention that Toshiba has unequivocally stated that they will not be upgrading the e330. <br /> <br />Ken and Andy further postulate that this may be incentive for Microsoft to go into the hardware manufacturing business once and for all, so that they are not left holding the bag when their "partners" decide to orphan units in a short period of time. This reflects extremely bad on Microsoft, to the point where Microsoft's public relations person has been avoiding talking to them about it. Interesting stuff, that any Pocket PC owner should be mindful of."<br /><br />This whole thing just makes me sick. :twak:

[Brad Adrian]

Isn't that kind of like telling people to complain to Microsoft when their Gateway hardware support isn't what they expected?

[Bob Anderson]

While I'm very frustrated that we've got MSFT partners out there that will "orphan" devices, I can't agree with Ken and Andy that the way to solve the problem is to "recommend that PDA buyers get a guarantee in writing about upgradability"....

I can just see it now... a PDA geek arguing with their Best Buy salesman that before they commit to buying it they need this upgrade policy "in writing". Yeah, right.

The better way to approach this is to do two things:

1) Quit buying any PDA with Toshiba written on it.
2) E-Mail and complain to MSFT that they need to change the license agreements to OEM's to provide some type of consumer upgrade policy.

With a little help from MSFT and a lot of buyers skipping Toshiba, we can make a difference. In the meantime I'm going to stick to HP/Compaq, who, in the short history of PDAs do have a fairly good track record.

[wrightca]

1) Quit buying any PDA with Toshiba written on it.
...

In the meantime I'm going to stick to HP/Compaq, who, in the short history of PDAs do have a fairly good track record.

No kiddin! My 3650 is still alive and well in my wife's hands. I never had all the problems people were complaining about (dust, etc). It's still a rock solid PDA today, and I was one of the first owners. My Tosh isn't near as old, and I've already had to send it back and deal with far more problems than the iPaq.

I'm with you Bob, I'm hoping back on the HP turnip truck I fell off of before I bought the e740.

[Brad Adrian]

2) E-Mail and complain to MSFT that they need to change the license agreements to OEM's to provide some type of consumer upgrade policy.
I'm not sure that is as important as sending an e-mail to complain to TOSHIBA, urging them to provide some form of upgrade policy.

I understand the idea of placing pressure on a vendor by working through their supply chain partners, but I think it adds a layer of complexity and often "punishes" the wrong groups. In this case, it's not Microsoft that decided not to offer upgrades, it's Toshiba. Sure, Microsoft is the "800-pound gorilla" in the equation, but it's Toshiba who's monkeying around (sorry).

Here's an analogy: Let's suppose the kid you pay to mow your lawn feels he deserves a raise. Would you expect him to contact your employer and ask him to negotiate a more "wise" use of your paycheck?

[ledowning]

Toshiba should get a lot of flack for their stance. I think that HP should get some flack as well. I have a Jornada 568 that is only a couple of years old and still has a lot of life in it. While not as fast as the new units on the market now, I originally purchased the unit with the understanding that it could be upgraded. The Jornada has 64 MB of RAM and 32 MB of ROM. The new OS would fit and probably run OK! All that I have read so far, indicates that HP has no plans to offer upgrades to Jornada owners.

[Duncan]

I have a Jornada 568 that is only a couple of years old and still has a lot of life in it. While not as fast as the new units on the market now, I originally purchased the unit with the understanding that it could be upgraded.

Big difference. You can buy a PC that is able to be upgraded to a future version of Windows - there is no guarantee that it will be though - even two years down the line (as I learnt with my PC when it came to WinXP). Products have support cycles - the 568 is now 4 generations out of date.

The e330 and e740, however, are not.[/quote]

[Pony99CA]

I can just see it now... a PDA geek arguing with their Best Buy salesman that before they commit to buying it they need this upgrade policy "in writing". Yeah, right.
That would be stupid, but I assume the suggestion is more to get people to request an upgrade policy from the manufacturer in writing. Now would be a good time to start campaigning for this, as we've just had one release of the OS and have heard about the next one.

I had some thoughts on what a reasonable upgrade policy should be, and have posted them on my Web site (http://www.svpocketpc.com/#THOUGHT_OS_UPGRADE_POLICY). If manufacturers would agree to the policy I suggest, I think everyone would be happy. Check it out and let me know what you think.

Steve

[kiwi]

I have a Jornada 568 that is only a couple of years old and still has a lot of life in it. While not as fast as the new units on the market now, I originally purchased the unit with the understanding that it could be upgraded.

Big difference. You can buy a PC that is able to be upgraded to a future version of Windows - there is no guarantee that it will be though - even two years down the line (as I learnt with my PC when it came to WinXP). Products have support cycles - the 568 is now 4 generations out of date.

The e330 and e740, however, are not.[/quote]


Ah, but you still can run Windows XP on a older machine.. thought not very well. I too _had_ a HP 568 and just ditched it recently. (2210 arrives tomorrow!) I would have probably kept it if it supported WM 2003. I would have paid upto $US30 for it as well... but if it was too slow.. then ?

Who knows.. I dont think there are any updates of WM2003 for the older 206mhz machines?

[Wojo]

Who knows.. I dont think there are any updates of WM2003 for the older 206mhz machines?

Of course there will be 206 machines running WM2003... All the XDA device that were sold by T-Mobile and O2....

Acutally I'm running PPCPE 2003 on my XDA and it's running great. There is no excuse, other than $$$$$$$$$$$$, for the OEM's not to provide upgrades to these devices.... I also own an HP 565 and would love to upgrade it to WM2003... Maybe with a nice ROM hack from xda-developers.com...

It's all about $$$$$ guys... We all know that anything with 32meg RAM and an ARM based processor will be able to run WM2003...

[feo]

I was under the misconception that by having something that is 'flashable', it meant they would come up with upgrades.
Little did I know it HAS to ACTUALLY say it.
But then I was also under the misconception that Toshiba was a reputable company.
Since this I have been working with my I.S. department to not buy Toshiba hardware again. Their notebooks are good, we buy about 3 to 5 every quarter, but what can assure us that they won't do the same to one (or some) them?
I am almost there, I am currently evaluating HP (Compaq) hardware.

[Jafar]

I wonder how tough it would be for microsoft to offer the upgrade themselves. Just like windows XP installs specific drivers for specific hardware, why not have windows mobile do the same? Maybe they want to avoid doing all the "support". Oh well.

Jafar

[Pony99CA]

Who knows.. I dont think there are any updates of WM2003 for the older 206mhz machines?
Of course there will be 206 machines running WM2003... All the XDA device that were sold by T-Mobile and O2....
It's not available yet, but HP has announced an upgrade for the 3800 iPAQs. So there are other Strong ARM machines that will get upgrades.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I was under the misconception that by having something that is 'flashable', it meant they would come up with upgrades.
Little did I know it HAS to ACTUALLY say it.
Actually, Flash ROM is good for more than upgrades. For example, bug fixes can be distributed without having to take up RAM. So even if no upgrades are offered, Flash ROM may still be useful to you.

Steve

[gorkon280]

What I have not seen some say is possible now that all Pocket PC's have Flashroms is that Microsoft now has the ability to upgrade these WITHOUT regard for the vendor. All Micrsoft has to start doing is start selling the OS on disk. Sure, there maybe warantee issues as it would stand now, but Pocket PC enthusiasts like us are really getting tired of WAITING to get new OS releases and being dependant on the vendor getting the damn thing right!

[Pony99CA]

What I have not seen some say is possible now that all Pocket PC's have Flashroms is that Microsoft now has the ability to upgrade these WITHOUT regard for the vendor. All Micrsoft has to start doing is start selling the OS on disk. Sure, there maybe warantee issues as it would stand now, but Pocket PC enthusiasts like us are really getting tired of WAITING to get new OS releases and being dependant on the vendor getting the damn thing right!
That has been said before (see Jafar's post three before yours, for example), but isn't practical currently. Many OEMs include applications and customizations in the ROM. Even if Microsoft could update only the OS in ROM, that might break these existing applications or customizations.

Microsoft would also need to test the upgrades on those devices, a job best suited to the OEM.

Steve

[azhiker]

While some of you advanced PPC owners demand your upgrades, some of us "novices" simply want a PPC that works (calendaring, etc.) As long as a device operates as it was meant to at purchase time, and a warranty will keep it working that way, then having an upgrade may not be as "necessary" as some of you think it has to be.

I have to believe that the vast majority of people using PPC have little interest in keeping their devices as current as possible. What they want is for their devices to work properly and to function as they bought it. (E310 owner that is very satisfied with this still in warranty device)

[Perry Reed]

I have a Jornada 568 that is only a couple of years old and still has a lot of life in it. While not as fast as the new units on the market now, I originally purchased the unit with the understanding that it could be upgraded.

Big difference. You can buy a PC that is able to be upgraded to a future version of Windows - there is no guarantee that it will be though - even two years down the line (as I learnt with my PC when it came to WinXP). Products have support cycles - the 568 is now 4 generations out of date.

The e330 and e740, however, are not.[/quote]

I disagree here. The Jornadas are not very out of date at all. They were discontinued; ditched when HP bought Compaq. I'd bet real money that if that deal had never happened, HP would still be actively supporting the Jornadas, including the 568, and an upgrade would be available.

The simple truth is that HP left us Jornada owners high and dry.

[daS]

There is no excuse, other than $$$$$$$$$$$$, for the OEM's not to provide upgrades to these devices....
There might not be an excuse, but there is also no obligation on their part.

Of course it's all about money! These companies are in business to make money for their stock holders, not to spend money on projects that won't give them a return. I know that sounds harsh, but for them to do otherwise would be a violation of their duties to their stockholders.

Some of the Pocket PCs may not have sold enough units to justify the cost to support an upgrade program. Also, there might be handware issues that need to be addressed. Don't forget, each Pocket PC has different hardware for which low-level drivers need to be written.

I don't think it's a matter of these companies assuming that by not offering an upgrade they will force the consumer to spend more money buying a new device. After all, the loss of good will would mean that they are just as likely to push the customer to a compeditor.

Instead, there might be sound business reasons that we don't know about. For example, HP may have discovered that the typical buyer of the 1910 only uses it as a Palm replacement and there would be far less interest in an upgrade than the typical 3900 or 5450 customer (I don't know this to be the case, I'm simply using it to make a point.) That would mean that the number of 1910 users that want an upgrade would be too small to justify it - although they may certainly be a vocal group.

Of course, there are certainly times when it makes good business sense to spend money on something that is not directly profitable, such as community charity or for the purpose of "customer good will". This may very well be a case of that.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it's reasonable to let companies like Toshiba know that you are not a happy customer and that you will not buy or recommend future Toshiba products of any kind. I also think it's reasonable for media sources like this site, or Pocket PC Magazine, to inform potential customers about the companies that supported their customers and those that didn't. After all, if the company sees that they will lose more money by not offering the update than they will by spending the money to support it, then it will happen.

But it's unreasonable to expect a company to do something that's not in their interest. That would just be bad business.

[Jason Dunn]

Of course it's all about money! These companies are in business to make money for their stock holders, not to spend money on projects that won't give them a return. I know that sounds harsh, but for them to do otherwise would be a violation of their duties to their stockholders.

Ah, but David, you're ignoring that fact that sometimes a company will lose money on a move if the ancillary effect is beneficial in the long run. Let's say for example that Toshiba were to lose $1 million dollars on releasing this upgrade - let's say that their projections showed that not enough people would buy the upgrade, and the $1 million was the difference between their development & distribution costs and the profit they make when "x" users did buy the upgrade.

Now let's look at the costs:

• Negative press in the mainstream media, hurting both Toshiba Pocket PC sales and other Toshiba products.

• Negative press from enthusiast sites like this one, hurting both Toshiba Pocket PC sales and other Toshiba products. I will personally never buy another Toshiba Pocket PC for a long time to come, nor will I recommend them to anyone else. I even tried to avoid buying a Toshiba laptop for my church lately, but ultimately I couldn't find anything else at that feature/price point.

• Negative impact from individual users. I've read many comments in these forums from people who work in the IT field, and have purchasing power in their enterprises, who have said that they will not purchase ANY Toshiba products any more, and are looking at alternative suppliers.

I firmly believe that the Toshiba brand and sales will take more punishment from this move than the money it would have taken them to release the upgrade.

It's short-sighted of Toshiba, and smacks of a lack of understanding of the North American market. From what I understand, in Japan it's very common to own a device for under a year, then sell it and get something new. The turnover rate is much higher over there, so I have a feeling Toshiba doesn't grasp the North American trait of using something until it stops working. :wink:

Hmm. This would make a good front-page rant. :twisted:

[daS]

Of course it's all about money! These companies are in business to make money for their stock holders, not to spend money on projects that won't give them a return. I know that sounds harsh, but for them to do otherwise would be a violation of their duties to their stockholders.

Ah, but David, you're ignoring that fact that sometimes a company will lose money on a move if the ancillary effect is beneficial in the long run.

Jason, I did point that out, although perhaps it was buried too far in my long message: :?

Of course, there are certainly times when it makes good business sense to spend money on something that is not directly profitable, such as community charity or for the purpose of "customer good will". This may very well be a case of that.

The negative impacts you listed are all part of the cost of lossed good will. It might be useful to point these things out to them in real numbers. That's why petitions with real customers listed, as well as threads like this one are useful.

My only point was that any attempt to get a company like Toshiba (or HP) to change such a policy needs to point out to them why it's in their interest to do so. Ranting about how they are only in it for the money is useless because it's the truth - even if they won't admit it. If it's not, then they will be out of business anyway.

[Bandito]

I'd like to add my $0.02...

There appears to be a difference in mentality between "traditional" electronics manufacturers and "modern" computer manufacturers.

The traditional electronics manufacturers generally focus on consumer electronics. Historically, consumer electronics do not require upgrades, nor do they require patches, fixes or any other kind of support beyond hardware break/fix. Their devices are based around hardware, and have only recently begun to host complex software. They build appliances.

Computer manufacturers, on the other hand, have an industry based in both hardware and software. The majority of their revenue comes from software, and they know that bug fixes, security patches and upgrades are a fact of life (and a stream of revenue).

Toshiba obviously falls into the first category. HP falls into the latter. Dell, a pure computer manufacturer, was the first to offer the upgrade. They obviously know their market. This is not to say that Toshiba does not know theirs. I personally have always had these views about Toshiba (and Sony), and though I will still buy their consumer electronics, I will not buy their computing devices because I want upgrades. Maybe they assume that their market does not include people like us, so they feel no need to focus on their software.

To sum it up (in case you felt like jumping to the end instead of reading my rant), do not buy computers from consumer electronics manufacturers. You will be left in the cold.

[ctmagnus]

To sum it up (in case you felt like jumping to the end instead of reading my rant), do not buy computers from consumer electronics manufacturers. You will be left in the cold.

Ever heard of the Daiwoo PC? :pukeface:

[Pony99CA]

There appears to be a difference in mentality between "traditional" electronics manufacturers and "modern" computer manufacturers.

The traditional electronics manufacturers generally focus on consumer electronics. Historically, consumer electronics do not require upgrades, nor do they require patches, fixes or any other kind of support beyond hardware break/fix. Their devices are based around hardware, and have only recently begun to host complex software. They build appliances.

Computer manufacturers, on the other hand, have an industry based in both hardware and software. The majority of their revenue comes from software, and they know that bug fixes, security patches and upgrades are a fact of life (and a stream of revenue).

Toshiba obviously falls into the first category. HP falls into the latter.
I find your description of HP being a "modern" electronics manufacturer, while calling Toshiba a "traditional" electronics manufacturer, a bit amusing. HP was been around since 1939 (http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/), before most electronic devices. Also, Toshiba has been around since 1875 (http://www.toshiba.com/taistsd/pages/news_factsheet.html), well before any electronics devices, while Toshiba America has only been around since 1964.

I'll agree that HP wasn't a consumer electronics company for most of their history, being better known for industrial electronics. However, Toshiba also has many non-consumer divisions (remember them selling milling equipment to make submarine propellers to the Russians); consumer electronics may not even be their largest division.

Maybe instead of "tradtional" and "modern", a better distinction would be "computer companies" and "consumer electronics companies".

Steve

[Bandito]

I find your description of HP being a "modern" electronics manufacturer, while calling Toshiba a "traditional" electronics manufacturer, a bit amusing.

Ya, that's why I used the quotes. Was having trouble finding the right words.

I'll agree that HP wasn't a consumer electronics company for most of their history, being better known for industrial electronics. However, Toshiba also has many non-consumer divisions (remember them selling milling equipment to make submarine propellers to the Russians); consumer electronics may not even be their largest division.

Though Consumer Electronics may not be Toshiba's largest division, their PDAs and computing devices fall into this category (at a high level). Since HP doesn't really have such a category, their PDAs and computing devices fall into their hardware and software lines as applicable. This is where the true distinction between the companies comes into play. You also must consider that HP is now made up of HP and Compaq, and Compaq is as computer-centric as they get.

[Pony99CA]

Though Consumer Electronics may not be Toshiba's largest division, their PDAs and computing devices fall into this category (at a high level). Since HP doesn't really have such a category, their PDAs and computing devices fall into their hardware and software lines as applicable.
HP also makes digital cameras, which I would classify as consumer electronics. Toshiba also makes laptop computers (and generally pretty good ones). No, HP doesn't make TVs or DVD players, but the distinction isn't as great as one might believe.

Steve

[Bandito]

HP also makes digital cameras, which I would classify as consumer electronics. Toshiba also makes laptop computers (and generally pretty good ones). No, HP doesn't make TVs or DVD players, but the distinction isn't as great as one might believe.

I agree that the distinction is blurry, but I'm really talking about their focus markets. Toshiba is a consumer electronics manufacturer first and a computer manufacturer second. HP's consumer electronics line is more of an afterthought, though I'm not bashing it or anything. Just saying that it's not their focus.

[Pony99CA]

I agree that the distinction is blurry, but I'm really talking about their focus markets. Toshiba is a consumer electronics manufacturer first and a computer manufacturer second. HP's consumer electronics line is more of an afterthought, though I'm not bashing it or anything. Just saying that it's not their focus.
I realize that you're not bashing either company. However, I'm curious why you say Toshiba is a consumer electronics company first?

If that's by revenue, you'd have to look at Toshiba's other divisions, too. They make semiconductors, machinery, consumer electronics, computer equpiment, etc. Have you actually looked at their revenues and/or profits by division? If not, check out Toshiba's Shareholder Message (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/ir/eir_01.htm). I don't know where PDAs fit in there, but their Digital Media division seems to encompass both computers and consumer electronics. It seems to have the most revenue of any division, but does not account for a majority of Toshiba's revenue (less than 28%, if I did the math correctly).

If you're going chronologically, because they introduced consumer electronics before computers, then what about the stuff they made before there was an electronics industry? I have no idea what Toshiba did back in 1875, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't consumer electronics. :-D

Steve