Is Your 2215 Sluggish When You Turn It On?

[Ed Hansberry]

When I got my 2215, it was incredibly fast but as always, things seemed to slow down just a bit as I loaded applications on it. One area in particular that was frustrating was powering on. It would often take 2-3 seconds for the device to be usable. Once on, it was fast, but that "resume" time was getting to be a real frustration.<br /><br />I mentioned this to another Mobile MVP, Jared Miniman and he said his 2215 didn't exhibit this behavior but he recalled an experience he had with a Toshiba e700 series. He suggested I remove my CF card and see if that helped. Boy, did it ever! Now the device powers up just as fast as the day I bought it. Apparently there is something either in the Windows CE OS or some implementations of CF drivers that when resuming can take some extra time. Leaving my SD card in has caused no such problems. My Jornada 565 doesn't exhibit this behavior, nor did any previous iPAQs with the CF sleeve in place, but this may be unique to dual slot devices. I'll need to do some testing with my Axim. Fortunately for me, my biggest card is the SD card and I only use my CF memory card for music, so leaving it out is no big deal.

[Jimmy Dodd]

Mine takes slightly less than a second to power up without my 128 MB CF card, a little more than a second with it. It's really too close to notice unless you time it, and then it's still too close to be sure there's a difference. Definately not 2-3 seconds like you are seeing. How big is your CF card?

[pez]

Mine takes 2 secs with a CF card in it..

My axim took like 5 seconds.. IMPROVEMENT FOR ME IM HAPPY! :lol:

[JonnoB]

I wonder if there is a difference between CF peripherals vs CF storage cards. If there is no difference, that would indicate a CF problem in general, but if storage only cards affect performance, it could be a case of the OS looking into the CF card for files, such as applications, My Document folder, etc.

[Ed Hansberry]

Mine takes slightly less than a second to power up without my 128 MB CF card, a little more than a second with it. It's really too close to notice unless you time it, and then it's still too close to be sure there's a difference. Definately not 2-3 seconds like you are seeing. How big is your CF card?
256MB Kingston. I need to test this some more. I have a few 128MBs lying around at home. My SD is 512MB. Still, this 256MB didn't have any effect on my 3970 with the CF sleeve in place.

[sponge]

3900, a 32MB SD card, a 512MB CF card, and another 256MB CF card (or WiFi) when I turn it on, and the speed is fine.

[Ed Hansberry]

I wonder if there is a difference between CF peripherals vs CF storage cards. If there is no difference, that would indicate a CF problem in general, but if storage only cards affect performance, it could be a case of the OS looking into the CF card for files, such as applications, My Document folder, etc.
Good point. It is snappy as always when my CF Socket WiFi card is in and powering on. However, right now my CF only has 55 files and 15 folders.

[Wes Salmon]

One thing I've noticed is that if you power up and right away tap on the connection icon in the title bar (to direct dial GPRS via Bluetooth for instance), it stalls for about 5 seconds then the bubble pops up and says something about needing to setup a new connection.

If you click "Hide" and tap the icon again right away, it gives you your standard connection option, in my case it lets me dial GPRS via Bluetooth.

Since often times the first thing I do is connect to GPRS when I power up the device, this pause is even worse than sluggish performance for a few seconds. :(

[Programmer]

Good point. It is snappy as always when my CF Socket WiFi card is in and powering on. However, right now my CF only has 55 files and 15 folders.

I don't have a CF slot (I currently have a 1910 - 2210 here on Monday :) ) so I dont have this problem. But I am wondering....is it possible that the driver or OS is scanning the drive for files? What about a MP3 player, MS READER or a photo program that is scanning your card at start up looking for files?

[Ed Hansberry]

I don't have a CF slot (I currently have a 1910 - 2210 here on Monday :) ) so I dont have this problem. But I am wondering....is it possible that the driver or OS is scanning the drive for files? What about a MP3 player, MS READER or a photo program that is scanning your card at start up looking for files?
No, I can easily replicate after doing a soft reset, letting it turn off then turning it back on.

Wes - you are just a mobile stud. The rest of us are content to wait for radio stacks to come online. :wink:

[John Cody]

I don't know if the newer PPC 200x's do this, but with my older Casio E-125, it seems that it will revalidate all of the shortcuts when powered on. Meaning, if I removed my CF card while the unit is on, none of my shortcuts turn into the generic white window icon. But, if I Power-off, then back on, the program shortcuts that were pointing to apps on my storage card will turn invalid (generic white window icon), and the only way to get the icons back is to put back the CF card, and cycle the power.

So, I would think that the more icons you have, the longer it will take to validate them on power-up.

[Janak Parekh]

No, I can easily replicate after doing a soft reset, letting it turn off then turning it back on.
Yes, but do you have any plugins/startup items looking for files, perhaps? Two things to try, presumably, would be a format of the CF card and a hard reset. I know you use PB+, so the latter would be very easy to test. ;)

John -- the revalidation seems to happen only when you visit the respective Program folder, at least in Pocket PC 2002. I don't have any slowdowns despite the fact I have stuff on my SD card.

--janak

[tylosaurus]

I have an Audiovox Maestro, with a 256 MB CF card. I never noticed it before, but it takes 2 sec to start with the card in, and 1 sec with the card out.

[JonnoB]

I think that there is a good chance the SD card would have the same slow-down affect as CF. The difference is the type of files that are stored on the storage card and the amound. Both should have a My Documents folder, a number of files in it and perhaps an application or two. Make them the same content and most likely, an SD would do the same thing.

[Chris Spera]

It makes sense that this happens with storage cards. Having worked with Jared for many years at WindowsCE Lair and pocketnow.com, I seem to remember bumping into this problem myself.

I think it has something to do with the fact that CF storage cards are inventoried upon startup. The reason why it takes so long for the device to be usable is because the device is reading the file allocation table on the card. (no card in at start up, no time required to read the card's FAT). The larger the card, the longer it takes...

If I also remember correctly, when MMC/ SD was introduced as a memory card standard, this was one of the problems that they specifically set out to resolve. It doesn't surprise me that you don't have this problem with your SD Card.

I hope this helps...

Kind Regards,


Christopher Spera

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I think that there is a good chance the SD card would have the same slow-down affect as CF. The difference is the type of files that are stored on the storage card and the amound. Both should have a My Documents folder, a number of files in it and perhaps an application or two. Make them the same content and most likely, an SD would do the same thing.
Hmm... my SD card has 1200+ files spread out over 120 folders. My CF card has just 3 files (including the ignore_my_docs one) and 0 folders and I definitely see a difference in leaving out my CF card where I don't see a difference in leaving out my SD card.

[Wes Salmon]

Wes - you are just a mobile stud. The rest of us are content to wait for radio stacks to come online. :wink:

Bah! Who has time to wait!? I'll have plenty of time to wait for radio stacks when I'm dead! ;)

[Ed Hansberry]

I think that there is a good chance the SD card would have the same slow-down affect as CF. The difference is the type of files that are stored on the storage card and the amound. Both should have a My Documents folder, a number of files in it and perhaps an application or two. Make them the same content and most likely, an SD would do the same thing.
The CF card has 15 folders and 55 files. Mostly .zip and WMA files. The SD card has 36 folders and 409 files, including zip, wma, xls, doc and tons of apps. No apps in stalled on the CF, and both have My Documents and not that infernal ignore_my_docs file. By all measures, my CF file structure and content is infintely less complex than the SD.

[Ed Hansberry]

If I also remember correctly, when MMC/ SD was introduced as a memory card standard, this was one of the problems that they specifically set out to resolve. It doesn't surprise me that you don't have this problem with your SD Card.
Thanks Chris. This makes tons of sense and meshes with what I am seeing, except for the no-lag I see on a 3000 series iPAQ with the CF sleeve in place. Perhaps the CF sleeve is a superior form of technology. :wink:

[AZMark]

Could be the exact problem the Dells are having. Some are reporting problems, some are not. Seems like a bad driver for the CF card in 2003. I remember putting 100's of files into my "My Documents" folder just about killed my Axim 2002. Now the driver has gotten so bad even a few files slow it down?

Anyhow, sounds like a MS problem not just a Dell or HP problem.

AZMark

[David Prahl]

My Axim used to take 2-5 seconds to respond after a power-on. Now it does not for some reason.... :?:

[AZMark]

The A02 or the A03 rompack from Dell fixed the slow powerup. But now it appears that MS is "intoducing" it back into the os.

[claud9999]

I wonder if there is a difference between CF peripherals vs CF storage cards. If there is no difference, that would indicate a CF problem in general, but if storage only cards affect performance, it could be a case of the OS looking into the CF card for files, such as applications, My Document folder, etc.

Definitely, my CF GPS makes my ppc take a couple seconds to be responsive. I highly suspect it's a driver loading/device initialization process. It is annoying, but beats waiting for Win32 to load. ;^o (Just kinda wish there was some indicator, so I don't sit there trying to open menus while it's doing this.)

[Chris Spera]

Thanks Chris. This makes tons of sense and meshes with what I am seeing, except for the no-lag I see on a 3000 series iPAQ with the CF sleeve in place. Perhaps the CF sleeve is a superior form of technology. :wink:

No big shakes...

However as far as the CF Sleeve is concerned, you have to remember that for an iPAQ 3000 series device to read a CF Card, the device has to initialize DM_K (or equivalent) first in order to be able to run the sleeve. As a result, the CF still isn't "there" during start up. You'll notice that the Sleeve Initialization dialog and sound pop up after the device starts... :)

So in this sense, it might be perceived as superior, but only because it doesn't slow the device down as much as the CF inventory does.


Kind Regards,


Christopher Spera

[AZMark]

if I recall the startup sound didn't sound for a sleeve on power up, just on a soft reset.

i believe that many of the slow start ups being reported by the Dell and HP folks are just a normal power up.

AZMark

[droppedd]

yeah it's not affecting me with an SD card in my 2210; it's about 1 second to start up either way. I have a 256 MB SanDisk card with over 200 files, including at least a dozen programs installed to the card with shortcuts in my programs directory. So that kills the "validating shortcuts" theory, i'd imagine. It's good this is being pointed out - gives me another reason to put off getting a CF card. (ooh but I want a gig of space for music sooo bad (and for movies, but i'll have to wait for PocketMVP to update for WM2003 for that... :grumble:))

[Scott R]

Well, this doesn't sound good. So now there's bootup time involved in owning some PPCs? I've been trying to look past the faults of the 2215 and the PPC OS in general, since there's much to like about this new device, but when I turn on my PDA to check my schedule (or whatever), I don't want to have to wait. I suppose it probably wouldn't affect me too much, though, since I anticipate that I'd use the CF slot more for a Wi-Fi card or just a huge memory card aimed at a specific limited-duration purpose, rather than for general app storage.

Scott

[JonnoB]

So, what I take away from this thread and others in the past is that CF cards are generally faster transferring files, less expensive, and in higher capacities than SD... but are also larger, cause a slow-down on startup, and possibly will go to end of life sooner than SD? When discussing CF vs SD in the future - these differences will have to be discussed as part of the PRO/CON.

[Scott R]

So, what I take away from this thread and others in the past is that CF cards are generally faster transferring files, less expensive, and in higher capacities than SD... but are also larger, cause a slow-down on startup, and possibly will go to end of life sooner than SD? When discussing CF vs SD in the future - these differences will have to be discussed as part of the PRO/CON.Well, it sounds like the slowdown is device specific (or perhaps now PPC 2003 specific), as several have stated that CF devices have caused no slow down for other devices.

Scott

[Lday]

My Toshiba E740 starts right up with my 1GB Microdrive and 256MB SD. Maybe it's PPC2003 specific? It does take a few secs for me to power off with the CF slot filled, but I can live with it as it only happens if I power up them immediately try to power off..

[Mexico]

I got a new one for you all: my 2215 sometimes shuts itself off right after I turn it on. Sometimes it takes less than a second, sometimes up to 5. I've noticed this more when the device hasn't been used for a while (maybe 1/2 hr, maybe an hour). If I turn it back on after a couple of minutes of being off, it won't act up on me. I got a 128 MB CF and a 256 MB SD on it. Any ideas on what could be causing this? An application maybe? I haven't thoroughly tried to narrow the problem down, but I'm curious to know if anybody else has come across it. Thanks for the help!

M

[Xanadu]

I got a new one for you all: my 2215 sometimes shuts itself off right after I turn it on. Sometimes it takes less than a second, sometimes up to 5. I've noticed this more when the device hasn't been used for a while (maybe 1/2 hr, maybe an hour). If I turn it back on after a couple of minutes of being off, it won't act up on me. I got a 128 MB CF and a 256 MB SD on it. Any ideas on what could be causing this? An application maybe? I haven't thoroughly tried to narrow the problem down, but I'm curious to know if anybody else has come across it. Thanks for the help!

M

I've noticed the same thing with my 2215, except that both of my expansion slots are empty.

-Xan

[Christian]

I have been using my 2210 with a 1 GB Microdrive (which I've owned for a while anyway due to my digital camera) and the device consistently powers on in under a second. I have had some stability issues but these are probably due to the fact that I've installed a dozen or so older programs... now if only my keyboard had drivers, I'd be happy as a clam :D

[Chris Spera]

yeah it's not affecting me with an SD card in my 2210

It won't guys, that's the point. This is a Compact Flash storage card driver issue in the OS. Nothing more. It shouldn't effect CF devices, just CF storage cards. SD Cards are uneffected by this problem.

Christopher Spera

[tgigear]

If you have a today plugin that shows you the CF card memory, most of them cause the device to be even more sluggish when you turn them on. It seems to be because the today app gets stuck waiting for the CF card to respond with available memory information, which can take a while because of the driver issues you've already noted. This even seems to effect bringing up the start menu.

I wrote a today plugin that gets the CF card memory and is multithreaded so it doesn't have to wait for the CF card to respond (It just displays the most recent data it has until it does get a responce). I've noticed that when I switched to it, most of the sluggishness went away.

Its freeware and can be found at http://www.geocities.com/tomgigear77/Software.html

[kevdawg2003]

i read this and was intrigued... so i tested my dell axim out. for a long time i have been wondering why my ppc became unresponsive after turning it on. (occasionally i like to use it as my watch so i just turn it on to find the time then attempt to turn it back off). sure enough when i took the CF card out of the dell it turned on and off instantly... one of the things i hate most about ppcs is the all around sluggishness. i wish there was a fix for this!!

[njb42]

I wrote a today plugin that gets the CF card memory and is multithreaded so it doesn't have to wait for the CF card to respond

Hey Tom, this is a fantastic app! Thanks for writing it ... and for making it freeware.

[Kantana]

This has been experienced on the Toshiba e755 as well. The workaround was to use the largest possible cluster size permitted, 32K generally speeds it up. Those with the newer high speed cards, Ritek, PQI etc don't suffer as much.

[beq]

^ Larger clusters also sped up writing to my old SanDisk SD card on my digicam, FWIW (though I don't like the space trade-off when I store my Favorites folder of almost 2000 URL files, for example).

BTW, what exactly does "ignore_my_docs" file do (just what the name implies)? Without that file, does the PPC search/look in that whole drive?

It's weird, I noticed apps on my new PPC2003 (I think it was Reader, or Word, or both) seemed to search through all files and folders on my SD card and iPAQ File Store (not just under \My Documents). Ditto for Network (which invariably drags everything down)! I always forget when initially installing Resco Explorer and choose to show Network under My Device. Later I have to go back and change to show it as the separate root My Network...

[subBlue]

I had the same thing with my Axim (got a 512 CF card and a 256 SD card full of WMA's) - however, i have found that turning off the battery pack 2003 storage monitor on my today page really helps and now my axim is ready instantly when i switch on.

I guess in my case the battery pack 2003 was calculating the free space in the extra cards, and freezing the pda until it was done (3-4 seconds)

[Len Egan]

I noticed less than a 1 second difference with the CF card in or the CF card out. Let's face it, with or without it is lightening fast!

[Ed Hansberry]

BTW, what exactly does "ignore_my_docs" file do (just what the name implies)? Without that file, does the PPC search/look in that whole drive?
Yes, pretty much. See http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2863 for a discussion on this.

[beq]

^ Ohh, OK thanks.

I wonder if this holds true for network mapped drives also. Because I don't think I see that ignore file on my desktop HDD (which Resco Explorer has mapped on the PPC). But as I'd mentioned, some apps -- actually now I think I remember it was just iPAQ Backup -- would seem to hang and I'd see the Socket CF WiFi card's activity light going busy. This was only when Resco had put Network under "My Device" root (it doesn't happen if it's displayed as "My Network" separate root)...

[Xanadu]

Would defragmenting the CF card reduce the FAT processing time on bootup? Theoretically, fewer file fragments would mean fewer FAT table entries for the iPAQ to read.

-Xan

[Cypher]

I hadn't actually noted the slow-down until you all mentioned it but, sure enough, with my 2215 and a 512MB SD and 512MB CF, my wakeup time is 2 seconds. Without the CF card it's less than 1 second. Note that the time lapse doesn't differ when I have a "My Documents" folder or when I don't.

There seems to be some confusion about "ignore_my_docs." Here's the behavior I've been able to catalogue: The standard File Open routine sees files located in "My Documents" or in a sub-folder (only one level deep) in "My Documents." The "My Documents folder can be located on any storage media, including the File Store. A file named "ignore_my_docs" in the root folder of any media prevents the File Open routine from seeing the "My Documents" folder at all.

The reasoning behind the first part seems to go back to when Windows CE OS was operating with rather sluggish processors so as not to have to make you wait eons just to see your file list. The system wouldn't look through the folders containing programs or other related data, just in your "My Documents" folder. I suspect the "ignore_my_docs" was invented intially just so the system wouldn't be scanning the File Store for documents. Whatever the reason, I can't find anywhere, other than on PPC sites, where "ignore_my_docs" is documented. It's a somewhat useful feature if you know about it, but Microsoft seems content to leave it in the "obscure lore" category.

Now, here's another interesting thing to note. The 2215 wakes itself up when you insert a card into either slot. None of the other iPAQs I'm aware of do that, however the Jornada did that. I guess it's an HP thing.

[Ed Hansberry]

The reasoning behind the first part seems to go back to when Windows CE OS was operating with rather sluggish processors so as not to have to make you wait eons just to see your file list.
It was created with the PPC 2002 OS and was so people could put files anywhere on the storage card. There were some peopel that would create a folder called "Work Files" off of the root and Excel couldn't see it. This prevents people from being forced to use My Documents\Work Files on a card. FWIW, if My Documents doesn't exist, ignore_my_docs will be instantly created when you insert a storage card.