No Demo? No Way! [Archive] - Thoughts Media Forums

Brad Adrian

07-10-2003, 09:00 AM

Okay, this is just a simple little pet peeve of mine that keeps nagging at me. I was poking around the Handango! site, looking for any interesting, new software to try out. I quickly found a couple of neat-looking applications, but they had no demo version. As a result, I did not try them.<br /><br />In fact, I will NEVER buy any Pocket PC software that does not allow me to try out a demo version first (unless it's VERY highly recommended by my hero, Ed!). Even if the price is very low, I just have a real problem buying software I can't take for a spin first.<br /><br />I know that sounds pretty silly, but as easy as it is to create demos, I can't be the only person who feels this way, can I?

JonnoB

07-10-2003, 09:08 AM

I will buy software when there is no demo, but it has to come highly recommended by people I trust (a good reason to frequent this site) but a demo version that really works and shows off the product can convince me to buy when there is no review.

Newsboy

07-10-2003, 09:14 AM

I agree 100%. In fact, I'm torn on downloading Pocket Tablet for my Casio EM-500. I want to do something useful with it since I don't carry it around anymore, but I've read reviews of there being no demo version, and the site only lists a 5-minute demo time before the program shuts down. It's only $10, but the lack of a decent demo pre-purchase annoys me so greatly I might just skip it altogether.

stitics

07-10-2003, 09:30 AM

I don't like to admit this, but I have used Kazaa as a "shareware generator". That is to say...I believe that people who create something have the right to the benefits of cash and fame that come from them. However, I believe that I have the right to determine whether or not their efforts suck prior to giving them my money. Therefore, if there is no demo, and I can get it for free via a "less-than-legal" method, I have been known to "test-drive" software prior to deciding whether or not to buy.

For the record, if I like it I DO buy it.

ricksfiona

07-10-2003, 09:39 AM

Yes, I will only buy software I haven't demo'd if many people I know have recommended it. That rarely happens and I won't buy the software. You gotta have a demo...

Vincent M Ferrari

07-10-2003, 12:47 PM

I just recently had this happen to me: Downloaded what I thought was a demo of Doom from pocketgear, put it on my PPC, and saw it was a freaking slideshow!

DUH! What the hell kind of demo is that? :bad-words:

Needless to say, I didn't buy it. I've bought stuff without demoing it before, but it's a rare case where I did so out of fear of getting burned. It's one thing to spend money, it's another to do so blindly.

bjornkeizers

07-10-2003, 12:52 PM

Therefore, if there is no demo, and I can get it for free via a "less-than-legal" method, I have been known to "test-drive" software prior to deciding whether or not to buy.

For the record, if I like it I DO buy it.

I do that too, though I know a better way to get a "full featured, unlimited time demo" *wink, wink*

Timothy Rapson

07-10-2003, 12:55 PM

Gotta have demo.

I have bought a lot more software for my PDA than I ever thought I would and have gotten burned. 90% of it is good. I have just a couple of clinkers. But, I don't buy without a trial period, and usually a 1 month one with full features.

I have one program that only does one thing, one time. It sweeps your whole system to see if there are bugs and memory problems. Once you use it, it is worthless. That is about the only type of software I could see being sold without a demo.

The fact that almost all PDA software is downloadable, and has demo versions is one of the big plusses of using a PDA over a Laptop.

Crystal Eitle

07-10-2003, 01:01 PM

I got burned once by buying software with no demo. I just wasn't happy with it, and then I was out $8.95. Never again.

rfischer

07-10-2003, 01:12 PM

Same here! I've bought software without a demo before. Although 8-10 bucks is not a huge sum of money, it still sucks when the program is of no use or is not what it is touted to be. I really appreciate all of you folks out there that provide all the detailed reviews (with or without being biased). The folks selling the software are usually not going to tell you about a program's pitfalls. :D

madbart

07-10-2003, 01:37 PM

I have also been burnt with buying software that looks great but is a total pig in operation! Never again :(

Jerry Raia

07-10-2003, 01:44 PM

I think a demo also shows the the sellers confidence in thier product. When there is no demo it makes me wonder if the people who wrote it are affraid if I see it in action I might not want to pay for it.

isilver

07-10-2003, 02:14 PM

I agree with all of you that if there is no demo then there is no way I am going to buy it. I have purchased to many programs and found that there was a incompatability or I didn't have enought memory or something crazy that a demo would have pointed out.

dangerwit

07-10-2003, 02:18 PM

<soapbox>
I whole-heartedly agree with this topic. Because of the industry pigs, I absolutely 100% refuse to buy before I try. I have been scorched by crappy software on ALL platforms too many times. Since i can't return it, I'm stuck with junk.

For recommendations, I even don't really trust reviews from people I know. I bought Wolverine on XBox based on a friend's recommendation, and was not "blown away" as was suggested by my friend. :)

If there is no demo, or I break the demo, I will use alternative means to try the software. Case in point: I live in the Central timezone in USA. I traveled to the Eastern timezone, wherein I installed the Agenda Fusion 5.0 demo. When I came home and changed the timezone, my 30-day trial suddenly expired after < 24 hours. Now what? (I borrowed a serial number off the net, and then deleted the app because I didn't like it at all).

So yes, I need a demo. If you like it, you buy it -- as a software developer by trade, this is important to me. But no demo, no try. Vincenzosi, if I thought I was getting an app but got a slideshow instead, I'd flip out. :) Seriously, what a ripoff.

Developers, post a USABLE demo of your app. Look at BatteryPack -- if it's good software at a reasonable price for people, they WILL buy it.
</soapbox>
*Phil

Evee Ev

07-10-2003, 02:23 PM

i gotta have a demo. and a full-functioning one at that. what's the point of having the software and not having all the features to play with? i like the fact that pocket informant gives you 45 days to demo their software.

Jason Dunn

07-10-2003, 02:36 PM

I guess it's a good thing we have a free two week trial to our subscription services then eh? :lol:

mmidgley

07-10-2003, 03:00 PM

I generally follow the "no demo, no purchase" strategy.

The one recent expensive exception to this rule was finding a good replacement for MSMoney--something that could do all that I could do with PocketQuicken on my old Apple Newton. Well, Cash Organizer is expensive and doesn't have a demo, so I demo'd every other financial program (this was before PocketQuicken for PPC was released, but I'm not impressed by what I've read about it since) and decided they all had big problems. Based on that elimination and reviews/comments, I bought Cash Organizer blind, and haven't regretted it for one moment. Actually, I"m sad that Inesoft didn't drop the price back when I was buying (its $10 less now I think), and they have a syncing option now too.

Bottom line: Its obviously safer to have a demo to try, but not all non-demo-available software sucks.

m.

Raphael Salgado

07-10-2003, 03:19 PM

I hate ranting on someone, and I don't want to mention Parys Technologies' name or anything, but a company has a program called PT??? which is a VNC client designed for the PocketPC. I saw it on PocketGear, but they don't offer a demo. For $6.95, I thought it was worth the description they gave on it - it allows right mouse button support and uses a game graphics engine to display the remote desktop quite quickly.

Let me offer this as an unofficial review for those who were contemplating it:

First of all, there is no dialog box to enter the IP or DNS name of the server you wish to log into. An IP address (no names to be resolved) must be entered in a specific textfile in the same folder as the program, followed by your password. Plain text - nice security. :roll: If you have a dynamic IP address, you'll have to edit the text file with Pocket Word or each time before launching the application. Remember, Pocket Word can only access files under the My Documents folder, so you have to move the stupid text file in and out of the folder, unless you have Pocket Notepad or another quick editor. Also, if you have a DynDNS name, forget it - you can't use it - the server must be reachable via numerical IP address only.

Second of all, the text file that's included with the installer that you have to buy states that the current issues with the program are basically that 1. it intermittently will not connect, and 2. upon trying to connect to the VNC server, it will intermittently crash the VNC server on the PC you're trying to connect to. Oh, I really like #2 - you keep trying when #1 happens to you on your PocketPC, and you won't know #2 happened until you get back home and find that the VNC server is no longer running.

I emailed the developer of the program, who stated that it's still an issue and will try to have it fixed in the next release. No ETA, no workarounds, no nothing since their initial release.

For the record, this incident proved to be the last program I bought without a demo.

Also for the record, I recommend the freeware VNCviewer that allows right-mouse clicking and sending Ctrl-Alt-Del and other keys from this developer's site:

http://www.allware.com.mx/Windowsce/

bcaray

07-10-2003, 03:48 PM

Just for the record, if you go to the inesoft site and download CashOrganizer 2003 it is a 25 day demo. They just do not implicitly state this anywhere.

quidproquo

07-10-2003, 04:18 PM

A simple analogy...... you wouldn't buy a car with out test driving it.... or a tennis racquet with out trying out the demo model.

Software should be the same..... Now if we can get boxed software in the retailers to somehow do the same....wouldn't that be great!! :D

yawanag

07-10-2003, 04:24 PM

I agree with all that's been said. Although, I have bought software with no demo, the price has to be right and highly recommended.

I have seen low-priced software($1.99 or so) with a demo and something for $34.95 with none. Something I could never understand. It's highly unlikely that I'd spend $34.95 on any software (my tops is $19.95) but that much without trying it out first? Get real!

I look back now at some of the apps I thought I'd never be able to live without and impulsively purchased it. Now I've deleted it and in many instances found a FREE version that I like even more. Case, in point, Calories Counter It was only $7 but it had no demo so I waited then came Calorie Tracker FREE and I love it. (www.wcater.com)

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

07-10-2003, 04:40 PM

I wonder if resellers like Handango do anything to encourage these software companies to provide a demo?

Obviously, Handango will allow anyone to sell their stuff (granted if it's a legitimate product), but I would think it would be in their best interest to educate each developer on how buyers are less-willing to purchase software with no demo.

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

07-10-2003, 04:43 PM

I guess it's a good thing we have a free two week trial to our subscription services then eh? :lol:
No way. I'm actually disappointed that I have to wait two weeks to get my microlight and Vaja coupon!! :wink:

sgyee

07-10-2003, 04:43 PM

I was wondering when this was going to become a hot topic.

Here's my view - In the computer industry, software is one of the rare, big ticket (or small ticket, in the case of Pocket PC software) items in which you cannot try it out before you purchase it.

Look at cars - I can test drive anything from a Yugo to a Ferrari Enzo...well, mabye not the Enzo, but you get the point. If I'm going to spend anywhere from $500 to $500,000 for a car, I have the ability to test drive it before I purchase it, so that I know what I'm getting.

In the computer world, I can test drive almost any piece of hardware if I travel to the right stores. Software - nope, just haul out your wallet and pray that you don't grab your ankles while paying for the software.

Here's another great case in point - There's a cretin out of Israel who was hawking fake Windows Mobile 2003 upgrades at Handango. Before Handango shut him down, he sold a bunch of copies of this software. If there was a way of testing it before buying it, you'd know if you got scammed or not, and it also keeps the programmers honest as well.

I am in favor of time delayed trials. 7 to 14 days are more than sufficient to determine whether or not it's a good piece of code to put on your machine.

Jacob

07-10-2003, 04:53 PM

Fully functioning demos are preferred of course.

I understand when some companies provide crippled demos, but sometimes when they cripple the ONE primary feature you're looking for :really mad:

PPCRules

07-10-2003, 05:13 PM

Kiyoshi

07-10-2003, 05:58 PM

Has anyone tried using a demo before they bought their software, and when they bought it, they couldn't find all the extra features? I'm not a power app user with PPC's (oops, excuse me, Windows Mobile), but I had demos for Snails and Atomic Cannon and I liked both the demos so I bought the game to get Snail's "Mission Mode" and Atomic Cannon's "Secret Weapons".

The Mission Mode pissed me off and I haven't found any secrets in Atomic Cannon yet!!! Oh well, they're great games anyways, cuz I have Atomic Cannon on my PC too cuz it came bundled! Yay!

CUShane

07-10-2003, 08:19 PM

A couple people have commented on the quality of demos. But I'm sure I can't be only one that has had this happen:

You download and install a calander-time-limited demo the day you see it mentioned on PocketPC Thoughts (or somewhere else), then 31 days later you finally get a chance to check it out, only to be greeted with a registration screen with only 'OK' and 'Exit' buttons. Now _that_ approach is going to sell a lot of software.

I'd advocate a usage-time-limited or limited-number-of-executions approach, but these are, of course, harder to code in a ways that is not easily circumvented. (A lot of writers seem more concerned about preventing a few unpaying users than securing possibly many more paying customers. But enough of that; I don't want to derail the discussion.)

As a software developer, I am going to take on some of your assertions and a lot of the other assertions made in this thread. I don't offer a demo of any sorts but I do offer a refund if you're not satisfied. The reason for this is that the vast majority of downloaders cheat the demo system. It is impossible to make a time/execution limited demo that is not hackable in a relatively easy fashion, and so most users will just continue to hack the demo as opposed to pay the $4.99 to register it. If you look at the stats on Handango or any other shareware site, you will find that the purchase rate for demos is roughly 1 per 100 downloads. This fits almost uniformly over all ranges of quality and price. If most users were just "evaluating" the software to make sure it worked, the purchase rate would be higher. How many test drives does the average car go on before it is bought? The ratio of test drives to purchaces is much, much lower.

I would be perfectly happy to offer a demo if people were honest and treated it as such, however, when it comes to software, people seem to forget the time and effort that goes into developing good software and want everything for free. I must admit that I've become much more skeptical on this issue since I have actually gone to the effort of programming and releasing my own software, but the fact remains that the vast majority of people never purchase a title they "demo."

kfluet

07-10-2003, 09:26 PM

I have a no demo, no purchase policy.

There is a LOT of junk software out there written for PDAs. I use (and purchase) maybe 1 in 30 programs I try. Often the software is so bad that, even if there are two or three programs that supposedly do what I need, I end up with none of them because they are all so poorly executed.

If I run across a product I want to try that has no demo, I will almost always write the author and explain this. In a couple of instances, the author has explained that they haven't had time to finish the demo version yet and have given me the full version to try on the promise that I will purchase it if I use it. Being an honest guy, this works with me. I dunno if this would work in general.

To the author above who is complaining about piracy: I'm sorry, but you have to put support of your customers ahead of the security of your product, and that starts with pre-sales support (a demo). I understand that the PDA software biz is really lean and that piracy is a real and frustrating problem, but I'm sure that not providing a demo is cutting into your income much more than piracy is. The fact that 1 in 100 demo downloads lead to a sale doesn't necessarily mean that the other 99 are pirating the software. They are much more likely just browsing (install, try for 5 min, delete).

bjornkeizers

07-10-2003, 09:57 PM

CUShane

07-10-2003, 10:55 PM

To the author above who is complaining about piracy: I'm sorry, but you have to put support of your customers ahead of the security of your product, and that starts with pre-sales support (a demo).

Exactly. Why do they have to make honest customers jump through hoops and cripple demos so severely? People who want to warez it, will. People who are genuinely interested in your software, will buy it if they want it. You won't stop the warez scene... and the benefits of a demo far outweigh the potential losses to warez'ing of your software

I will disagree with you on the benefits of a demo outweighing the problem of warez. The argument of pre-sales support is ludicrous until the price of software gets to a certain level. Most people refuse to pay real amounts of money for a Pocket PC program. I've found that most people won't pay more than $5 for a simple game, but to put that in perspective, I would need over 1,000,000 downloads/year to equal what I make in my day job and that's not even counting the 30% commission that Handango takes off the top.

I've had enough first hand experience with piracy that a demo's not worth the effort for $5. I'm working on a baseball scorekeeping application right now and that project will come with a demo simply because a program with that level of complexity and features needs to be tried out in a real world scenario. The baseball application will also cost significantly more due to the amount of time involved. Expectations need to be in line with the value being delivered. Developers cannot afford to put in full time support without the expectation of a full-time value.

It's not at all about making legitimate customers jump through hoops to say you have to plunk down $5 to try a product. If you're truly dissatisfied, then get your money back or dispute the charge on your credit card. You're right about the amount of "crappy" software available on handhelds, but until people realize that a small device does not equal a small price for software so that a developer can afford to work on Pocket PC software full-time, hobby quality software will be the majority of what you get.

Kati Compton

07-10-2003, 11:12 PM

ctmagnus

07-11-2003, 03:18 AM

No demo from them, no money from me. I've been burned too many times. There are only a few companies I will purchase from without experiencing the item firsthand beforehand, HP being one of them with their high-end iPaq line.

bjornkeizers

07-11-2003, 08:58 AM

I've had enough first hand experience with piracy that a demo's not worth the effort for $5.

We're not talking about a $4,99 tic-tac-toe clone, programmed by my little brother during lunch.. you really don't need a demo for that. We're talking about the big name, very pricy software where you simply *need* a demo.. or stuff like that server connection thing that was brought up earlier.. you might not be paying a huge amount, but if it simply doesnt work or works very badly.. You need a demo to find that out; and since you really can't get a refund easily, I can understand why nobody feels like shelling out money for software without a demo.. I wouldn't.

davidspalding

07-11-2003, 01:46 PM

A demo is like a calling card. It's like a presentation. It's like a free sample at Costco. It allows the user to confirm that the program is what it was said it was, works on his/her machine, and is desireable. Trial periods and limited functionality are sufficient to ensure users don't just "use" the software indefinitely without purchase.

I for one miss the old days of shareware when you got the program, and paid for it if you wanted support, a printed manual, free updates, etc. I have spoken out that I dislike timed demos which leave secret nuggets in my Registry or elsewhere to ensure I don't reinstall the demo and keep using it. It's fair to protect against that, but I still dislike demos that pollute my computer. My solution: I don't demo often, only when necessary.

I understand that Handango discourages -- or censors -- negative reviews. Bad policy, all around. Users of sites like Download.com and Amazon.com can base their decisions on the gist of the reviews, but if the reviews are skewed to better separate us from our cash, trust evaporates. So ... I don't even visit Handango. They can go pound sand.

I agree that this discussion is moot for $4.99 games ... hell, just buy it for the fun, even if limited, that's less than lunch at Arby's. But a $50 program,or $75 program, who's going to really buy it without a valid proof of concept and execution when getting a refund is so hard? Case in point, the idiot who made (apparently) thou$ands from his bogus programs to overclock your PDA, update to Pocket PC 2003, etc. He was finally booted due to user complaints, but the fact that he made so much money from vaporware indicates that users can't just blindly trust developers on Handango.

Brad Adrian

07-11-2003, 02:04 PM

7 to 14 days are more than sufficient to determine whether or not it's a good piece of code to put on your machine.
I'd say that's plenty of time. Sometimes I'll install a demo knowing that I might not be able to put it through its paces for a few days, but with most Pocket PC software, I can usually tell within a few minutes whether or not it does what I need it to do.

Brad Adrian

07-11-2003, 02:07 PM

I don't offer a demo of any sorts but I do offer a refund if you're not satisfied.
I hadn't really thought about it from that angle. So, you're obviously saying that you feel that relatively few people will try to scam you by claiming they want a refund?

rhmorrison

07-11-2003, 02:10 PM

I've found that most people won't pay more than $5 for a simple game, but to put that in perspective, I would need over 1,000,000 downloads/year to equal what I make in my day job and that's not even counting the 30% commission that Handango takes off the top.
You make over $ 5 MILLION / year. :jawdrop:
Boy I want your job!!

Brad Adrian

07-11-2003, 02:12 PM

I've found that most people won't pay more than $5 for a simple game, but to put that in perspective, I would need over 1,000,000 downloads/year to equal what I make in my day job...
Wow! You earn $5 million a year and you still develop Pocket PC apps in your free time?!?!

Or are you factoring in the 1:100 factor mentioned earlier?

CUShane

07-11-2003, 04:27 PM

PPCRules

07-11-2003, 08:14 PM

If you look at the stats on Handango or any other shareware site, you will find that the purchase rate for demos is roughly 1 per 100 downloads.
Some of that might be "I don't really need this, but if it's cool I might get it" or something like that. I know I've demoed software that worked fine, but I just wasn't interested enough to justify the price so I deleted it.
The majority of the demos I've downloaded don't even get installed. So that would cut the effective ratio to 1 purchase per less than 50 downloads. Then apply what Kati says here. Then consider that for many needs there are multiple apps to try out.

Bottom line, it's not piracy that's driving that ratio.

I guess I did open a can of worms. But, let's face it: the person breaking a demo isn't likely to become a paying customer anyway. Why sabotage your legitimate customer base out of fear of that person?