One Reason Why I Like GSM (GPRS) over CDMA (1XRTT)

[Jason Dunn]

You can't truly understand the beauty of being able to move a GSM SIM card into a new device, and have it work, until you try to do something similar with a CDMA device. You can't.<br /><br />Samsung was generous enough to send an i700, their awesome 1XRTT device with a built in camera, to review. They sent it to me a little over a month ago, and I figured "Well, Telus is the local CDMA carrier here in Calgary, so I'm sure I can connect with their PR people, get a demo account, activate the phone, and write the review." The first part went well - I got in touch with a nice lady from Telus, she said they could give me a demo account to use for the review. Then came activation time.<br /><br />:soapbox:<br /><br />The activation process was painful - we were looking for the ESN number, and couldn't find it on the device, so there was a flurry of emails back and forth between Telus, Samsung and myself as we tried to figure this out. By the end of the nearly month-long process, I was informed that Telus only let devices onto their network that they had been tested. Since they hadn't yet tested the i700 (and won't unless they decide to sell it), I might be able to get the i700 activated by, oh, 2004. :roll: I'll have the same problem if I can get my hands on their i600 Smartphone - which basically makes any CDMA useless to be as long as Telus has their current activation policies in place. &lt;sigh><br /><br />Contrast that with the GSM world - I'm currently using the <a href="http://www.fido.ca">Fido network</a>, and I had a SIM in my XDA until I broke it. Then I moved that SIM into my T68i and used it as a data modem over Bluetooth with my Dell X5 and a Socket Bluetooth card. When I received my SPV Smartphone, I put the SIM in that, and have been using it since. Zero problems: I just put in the SIM, and it worked. <br /><br />Isn't that the way technology is supposed to be? Magical? You just plug it in and it works, the first time, and every time. The importance of being able to do that can't be overstated: while most people don't have as many devices as I do, the ease of being able to get a new phone or Pocket PC, pop in a card, and just use it, really can't be underestimated.<br /><br />The CDMA people could really learn a few things from the GSM camp...

[Jeff Rutledge]

I'm with you 100% Jason. I have a T68 on the Rogers network. I've been able to use my SIM to test out a Sierra Wireless Aircard 750 and, more recently, a Siemens SX-56 (same as the XDA). In the case of the Siemens, Rogers even sent a sample SIM, but I didn't bother with it. Why mess around when I can just slap in my SIM and my phone #, essential contact #'s and my data plan goes with it?

Simplicity at its finest.

The CDMA folks need a :twak:

[fgarcia10]

I remember the very long proccess to activate my 2032sp"thera" from Sprint. Better yet I don't want to remember :cry: It was when the devise was new to them and everything went wrong. The phone part worked the first day but the data part took a few days...

[`helios]

behind you all the way... I would never go with anything other than GSM, just for the sheer simplicity...T/CDMA phone broken? Getting a loaner? hope you have all your contacts written down somewhere... SIMs make switching phones, for whatever reason, easy as pie. I've never been worried about switching my SIM between phones... it's also one of the few global standards... I like it especially if I'm gonna do any travelling. If I go to Europe, I can switch SIMs whenever I need to, and not worry about if my phone will be supported or not.

I say death to T/CDMA 0X

[Janak Parekh]

BTW, this isn't the protocol's fault per se -- Korea has CDMA with SIMs -- it's just the half-assed implementation here. :(

As for getting rid of CDMA, that's not happening soon. The whole world is going to a CDMA-style technology in the next 5-10 years. Presumably, GSM's wCDMA/UMTS will still have SIMs, though.

--janak

[Jeff Rutledge]

BTW, this isn't the protocol's fault per se -- Korea has CDMA with SIMs -- it's just the half-assed implementation here. :(

--janak

Thanks for pointing that out. At least it's possible. It's too bad it wasn't adopted here. Is it because it's a difficult thing to implement/support?

I guess I should have said:
The CDMA folks need a :twak: (except those in Korea). :lol:

[ntractv]

My personal op. CDMA in the USA :D . I've tried both and CDMA phones have better coverage areas IMO. My girlfried has AT&T (which uses GSM networks) and curses the thing at least 5 times a week. I use Verizon (CDMA) and never at a loss for a signal.

Just my 2 cents

[fulltilt]

The networks here in Australia, all have policies in place that *say* you aren't supposed to use a device on the network until it's been certified, including the GSM network.

But of course, try stop me when I buy my phones out of the UK before they are released here.

[Janak Parekh]

My personal op. CDMA in the USA :D . I've tried both and CDMA phones have better coverage areas IMO.
This is the most frustrating part. :evil:

Verizon has a better network. 1xRTT is noticeably faster than GPRS. But I can't use any Bluetooth phone, let alone pop a SIM into an unlocked third-party phone. Why is life so hard? :bad-words:

--janak

[zipgenius]

Yes, finally I can confirm this!
My girlfriend just bought a T68i to me and she had chance to pay it only €194 (in Italy) because Vodafone made a promotional rebate in june (-€25 on every branded phone 8O ). I always heard about this phone and I must say that it really rocks. I connected to GPRS (for my first time in life) with my Cassiopeia in just a couple of minutes: it was really simple.

[cybrwulf]

Yeah, it sucks that we have no SIM cards on verizon, but the cool thing is that I can now activate my ESN online under my VZW account, so switching phones and activation is a breeze for me!

[Howard2k]

What? The world is moving to CDMA? Where did you hear that??


I moved to Canada from England not too long ago and using CDMA is like going back in time. Phones here have STILL not properly caught up with what the rest of the world has had for a few years.


When you fly into North America set from Europe set the time on your phone back 5 hours and 5 years.

[sullivanpt]

cybrwulf, please tell us more. Does this mean you can switch between Verizon phones at will on the same account? Can you activate a Sprint phone on your Verizon account? Do you pay a service charge each time you switch?

I'm a big fan of SIM cards because it allows quick equipment swaps (In fact, the ONLY thing I like about US GSM service). Using a self-service web page to swap equipment would be just as good for my pruposes.

[trachy]

Yeah, it sucks that we have no SIM cards on verizon, but the cool thing is that I can now activate my ESN online under my VZW account, so switching phones and activation is a breeze for me!

Hey, that's pretty cool. With my provider, Alltel, I have to go into one of their retail outlets and have one of their 'service technicians' enter it into their system for a mere USD $35. My contract expires in November, and &lt;crossing fingers> hopefully I'll be able to carry my number with me elsewhere &lt;/crossing fingers>.

[dh]

Just like when Kyocera launched their 7135 Smartphone a while ago.

It's a CDMA phone and a lot of Sprint users were looking forward to it. No such luck, it's possible to activate a phone on Verizon but with Sprint you have to actually buy the phone from them. You can't activate any other phone, stupid.

I don't care if CDMA data service is supposed to be better. At least you have some flexibility with GPRS.

[rbrome]

BTW, this isn't the protocol's fault per se -- Korea has CDMA with SIMs -- it's just the half-assed implementation here.

Actually, I think it's China you're thinking of. Korean CDMA phones are very much like the ones here in the U.S. In fact, it's even possible to activate certain Korean CDMA phones on Verizon (although I don't recommend it).

In China, CDMA is very new, and when they got the government's permission to deploy it, the government mandated something like SIM cards. So R-UIM was developed - that's the CDMA equivalent of SIM. R-UIMs are very new.

As for getting rid of CDMA, that's not happening soon. The whole world is going to a CDMA-style technology in the next 5-10 years. Presumably, GSM's wCDMA/UMTS will still have SIMs, though.

Yes. In fact for the user, WCDMA/UMTS will work much more like GSM - European 3G (WCDMA/UMTS) phones are already on the market, and they do have SIM cards.

[Jacob]

My contract expires in November, and &lt;crossing fingers> hopefully I'll be able to carry my number with me elsewhere &lt;/crossing fingers>.

I dunno, I heard there is legislation in the works that would force the wireless phone companies to allow you to keep your phone number, but it's not there yet.

The wireless companies are fighting it, here's hoping they lose.

[rbrome]

Just like when Kyocera launched their 7135 Smartphone a while ago.

It's a CDMA phone and a lot of Sprint users were looking forward to it. No such luck, it's possible to activate a phone on Verizon but with Sprint you have to actually buy the phone from them. You can't activate any other phone, stupid.

Right, and just like Jason's experience with Telus, the issue is Sprint's policies more than the technology.

[szamot]

* TELUS - you suck
* Yeah, Tel(l)-us about it.

What do you expect from a corporation that to this day very much resemble a government run institution.

[rbrome]

I dunno, I heard there is legislation in the works that would force the wireless phone companies to allow you to keep your phone number, but it's not there yet.

The wireless companies are fighting it, here's hoping they lose.

It's not "in the works" - it's a done deal. And the wireless companies have finally thrown in the towel. Verizon was the biggest opponent, but they recently did an about-face and are now openly embracing it.

Come November 24th, you WILL be able to take your number with you.

[ntractv]

My personal op. CDMA in the USA :D . I've tried both and CDMA phones have better coverage areas IMO.
This is the most frustrating part. :evil:

Verizon has a better network. 1xRTT is noticeably faster than GPRS. But I can't use any Bluetooth phone, let alone pop a SIM into an unlocked third-party phone. Why is life so hard? :bad-words:

--janak

I agree. Verizon seems to be a stand out on BT phones. I remember the salesman telling me that BT was so unreliable that it was a waste of time for VZ to explore, but, that slowly seems to be changing. From what I have gathered is that VZ is more interested in giving people unparralled coverage than all the bells and whistles some other OEM's are offering. It may be, again slowly, that they are re-thinking their position (I've heard, if not already out, that they would be releasing a BT phone, but, I can't keep up with all the trade stuff). For me, I must have the coverage area. I would like the bells and whistles, but, in the end, I need to make call when I need to make call. One good thing about VZ in the Washington, DC area, ist that, back when they were Bell Atlantic, the approached and got the contract to install cell modules in the underground of our subway. So, why others are waiting to come out from under the tunnels into the blue sky, I can make and receive calls. (All to the dismay of other mobile users)

[Daimaou]

What? The world is moving to CDMA? Where did you hear that??


I moved to Canada from England not too long ago and using CDMA is like going back in time. Phones here have STILL not properly caught up with what the rest of the world has had for a few years.


When you fly into North America set from Europe set the time on your phone back 5 hours and 5 years.

All 3 G Mobile phone are using a CDMA tech

2 of them exactly,

CDMA 1x, and CDMA 1xEV-DO (for CDMA users)
W-CDMA for GSM users

[Howard2k]

What? The world is moving to CDMA? Where did you hear that??


I moved to Canada from England not too long ago and using CDMA is like going back in time. Phones here have STILL not properly caught up with what the rest of the world has had for a few years.


When you fly into North America set from Europe set the time on your phone back 5 hours and 5 years.

All 3 G Mobile phone are using a CDMA tech

2 of them exactly,

CDMA 1x, and CDMA 1xEV-DO (for CDMA users)
W-CDMA for GSM users


What?? When did UMTS become part of CDMA??

[dma1965]

GSM is the way to go if you travel for the mere widespread acceptance of it, as well as the simplicity. I went to Italy last year with my Cingular T68i (unlocked), walked into a store that sold SIM cards (they are EVERYWHERE in Italy), paid the drop dead gorgeous Italian woman behind the counter 30 euros, filled out a short form, popped the SIM in my T68i, and within 5 minutes I was making phone calls. 15 euros was the initial cost of the card, with 15 euros of talk time. I was there for a month and recharged it once for an additional 10 euros, by walking into a tobacco store in a city of only 1000 people, and when I left for home I still had not used it all up. What is even more amazing is that I used the phone several times a day, everyday, since I have a lot of relatives in Italy who all called me all of the time (everyone I saw in Italy above the age of 10 has at least one cell phone, and they use them constantly). Once I got back to the states, I simply removed the SIM and popped in my Cingular SIM, and I was back on again. No phone calls, no activation wait, no hassles whatsoever. When my T68i died a while back, and I had to send it in for repairs, I simply grabbed one of the Nokia GSM phones in our office, popped in my SIM, and I was up and running again. Try that with a Verizon, or Sprint, or Nextel phone. You will be cursing up a storm in no time. Simplicity is the key to acceptance for anyone, not just Joe user, but Geeks as well. :mrgreen:

[Howard2k]

ok, missed the W in W-CDMA. Sorry.

[ntractv]

P.S. Not knocking the convenience of SIM cards, with my Verizon CDMA phone all I have to do is (yes it is an extra) connect my phone to my PC through USB and all my contacts are downloaded to my phone and I can also pick and choose those to download.

And yes, I am ticked that I have the T720c with VZ and the 720i with AT&T can be attached to a camera module and not mine

[jimr18]

I have a Siemans S46 cellphone that has BOTH GSM and TDMA built in. I have used it in Europe without a problem. In the U.S. it works on the AT&T network, automatically switching between GSM and TDMA depending upon which AT&T towers are in the area. The software gives preference to GSM, but you can manually set the phone to GSM only or TDMA only, if you so wish. AT&T has been expanding its GSM coverage while currently maintaining TDMA as well, so this phone gives you both networks...a great advantage. :D

[freitasm]

The networks here in Australia, all have policies in place that *say* you aren't supposed to use a device on the network until it's been certified, including the GSM network.

But of course, try stop me when I buy my phones out of the UK before they are released here.

Same in New Zealand. Telecom New Zealand (CDMA) inforces this via a Telepermit, thing from the times a devices was plugged to a network using cables - that could hurt the exchanges. They still have this in place for their CDMA wireless network - stupid.

The rule applies to Vodafone New Zealand (GSM), but they don't mind. Any GSM phone will do :mrgreen:

[rbrome]

What? The world is moving to CDMA? Where did you hear that??

It's true, but you have to be careful about the terminology. When you just say "CDMA", you could mean one of two things...

A. First, there's the specific "CDMA" technology that Sprint PCS, Telus, and Verizon have deployed. The technical terms for this technology are IS-95 and cdma2000 1xRTT. "CDMA" is just the common name for these.

B. Then there's "CDMA" as in "Code Division Multiple Access", which encompasses a broad range of digital wireless technologies that encode data in the radio waves a certain way.

...and CDMA (A) is based on CDMA (B) technology. ("A" and "B" aren't technically meaningful - I chose them arbitrarily just for this explanation.)

For a quick analogy: you know how Microsoft's SPOT works over FM radio? Compared to that scenario, CDMA (A) is like the SPOT protocol, while CDMA (B) is like FM...

So then there's the "3G" technology that everyone has been talking about in Europe and Asia. This is a technology called WCDMA (also called UMTS) which is also based on CDMA (B), but other than that, has very little in common with CDMA (A).

WCDMA/UMTS has SIM cards and all the other cool features of GSM, so to the end user, it will work more like GSM, and not CDMA (A).

So is the world moving to CDMA? Yes, but CDMA (B), not CDMA (A).

[Howard2k]

Agreed, it's using CDMA technology but is in no way compatible with the current CDMA 1x os CDMA2000 that is in use today.

[rbrome]

Yeah, it sucks that we have no SIM cards on verizon, but the cool thing is that I can now activate my ESN online under my VZW account, so switching phones and activation is a breeze for me!

Sprint's had that for years... although of course you can only switch between two Sprint-branded phones, but it is almost as easy as switching SIMs. Not quite, but close.

[freitasm]

What? The world is moving to CDMA? Where did you hear that??

It's true, but you have to be careful about the terminology. When you just say "CDMA", you could mean one of two things...

A. First, there's the specific "CDMA" technology that Sprint PCS, Telus, and Verizon have deployed. The technical terms for this technology are IS-95 and cdma2000 1xRTT. "CDMA" is just the common name for these.

B. Then there's "CDMA" as in "Code Division Multiple Access", which encompasses a broad range of digital wireless technologies that encode data in the radio waves a certain way.


0X Probably one of the best "Dummy Guides to wireless terminology" (yet to be written) chapters I've read :mrgreen:

[kwerner]

What we need is a phone that can do everything :-)

I agree the phones here are behind the times, but its not really do to a particular protocol like CDMA vs GSM. I'm surprised they are pushing camera phones so much, I don't see the big use for them.

Why don't they push text/SMS messaging more? I love it, but nobody I know uses it so it's kind of pointless. I do get all my weather updates, sports scores from mobile.yahoo.com though. To me pushing SMS and making it free would be a good way to lighten the load on the networks. If that S46 were smaller and had bluetooth, I'd probably get it.

ATT TDMA coverage is pretty good in the sticks around Indiana. GSM just isn't worth the tradeoffs yet. If I can't make a phonecall unless I'm in a big city or a couple miles from a major road, that eliminates one major advantage for having the mobile in the first place: car trouble / emergency when on the road.

Other phone features I'd like to see pushed:
-internal antennas, my Nokia 8260 fits great in the pocket. Anything with an antenna always gets stuck. The T68 is nice.
-bluetooth-there are only a few phones available with bt. Surprised Sprint hasn't started adding it since they have all these feature packed phones. Actually I heard a lot of there phones had bt hardware but it was disabled in software, anyone know more about this?
-sms "message slots" - I'd like to see "message slots" like some of the alpha pagers have for storing news/weather/sports clips. Basically so I don't have to delete news messages, they would just be replaced by the latest broadcast message. I think something like this would help ush SMS here too. I typically access the net every hour or two just to see the headlines, weather and scores. If it was broadcast to all phones, it would save a lot of sms messages I'd think.

[kiwi]

The CDMA people could really learn a few things from the GSM camp...


yep.. been using GSM since 1998 when I went to the Uk.. worked sweet for me there, and when I toured Europe (though I did make an expensive phone call from a ship enroute to Italy where I picked a GSM signal ) , went back to NZ and GSM is big now with the text messaging and all. When I arrived in Canada early last year I was shocked to see Fido was the only GSM carrier (here in Ontario) but then Rogers soon came on the sceen. Now, they have to get the marketing right and consumer's are getting smarter etc.

I recently went to the UK, Switzerland and NZ where in all 3 countries I just popped in pay as you go SIM cards and was able to call my mates..

pretty cool..

B.

[Kiyoshi]

Ahhh this is my first time posting in this thread and too much reading!!!

I like SIM cards because I've had about 4 replacement phones from T-Mobile cuz of dustbunnies getting under my T720's screen. I have been able to keep all my contacts. Only problem was the first switch cuz I didn't know how to copy contacts over and I lost all my neato ringtones from my cell phone website! (I would give the URL but I deleted the actual tones off my webspace so I gotta fix that up....)

BUT the reception for GSM sucks!!! I've got a friend with a Nextel phone (it's really old though and enormous) but if I'm with him in the basement of a house, he's still got reception!!! It's crazy!!!

[Janak Parekh]

Actually, I think it's China you're thinking of. Korean CDMA phones are very much like the ones here in the U.S. In fact, it's even possible to activate certain Korean CDMA phones on Verizon (although I don't recommend it).
Hmm, I could have sworn that they were deploying R-UIMs in Korea, but I know you watch the news more closely than I do...

Thanks for the other comments, Rich.

Kiyoshi: reception is not GSM's fault, per se. We've got much less mature GSM networks in the US, and moreover, GSM mostly runs in 1900MHz here, which has less in-building penetration. This will be changing.

--janak

[Scott R]

So the gist of this topic is that GSM rules for people who review products for a living? I think I got that right. Well that's all well and good for the &lt;1% of the population that this applies to.

In the US, CDMA is got superior coverage. The 2.5G networks used by the CDMA providers are also faster. GSM offers cooler phones, by and large. That pretty much sums it up for me.

Scott

[JonnoB]

I just want to see a SmartPhone or PPCPE on the iDen network with PTT technology!

[Jason Dunn]

So the gist of this topic is that GSM rules for people who review products for a living?

Do you even bother to read the other comments in this thread before you post your comments? :roll: Dear God man - go read the reasons that other people are listing. It's not just about my comments.

CDMA technology is superior in many ways (1XRTT speeds blow GPRS out of the water), but on THIS issue, the GSM method is vastly superior to the CDMA method.

Take a giant step back and try to grasp what this is really about as it's core: with GSM, your phone is really the SIM card - the phone itself is just a shell. With CDMA, the phone IS your phone. This is a fundamental difference.

[kwerner]

Be aware... if you buy a GSM phone in the US it may be "locked" so that you can't use SIM cards freely as advertised here. My friends T68 from ATT is locked, a TMobile SIM won't work in it. His ATT SIM carf in an unlocked TMobile Nokia BT 6XXX worked fine though. www.expansys.com sells "ulocked" GSM phones but you have to pay more since you don't buy a service contract when you buy from them (I think anyway).

[adamz]

What we need is a phone that can do everything :-)


Yeah, I'm waiting for a Pocket PC Phone Edition with WiFi, Bluetooth, and GSM/GPRS built in. Then there needs to be software and services that'll let me switch from sending/recieving calls over GSM to VoIP when connected to my WiFi or otherwise IP based networks.
Oh, also there should be a GPS reciever in there so that I can run voice activated proximity searches without having to enter an address or zip code of my current location.

[dh]

I think Scott is saying that, yes GSM does offer some great features, but fact of life, CDMA does have much better coverage here in the US specially since you can roam on AMPS. (sad but true)

That is slowly changing, I use the dual band Siemens ATTWS phone and I seem to spend less time on TDMA and more on GSM which is good. SIM cards are also good, my son visits from the UK and I can put my SIM card in his P800 and play with that and his other goodies.

I guess technology wise, we are all going to end up in the Qualcomm camp in the end since the newest versions of GSM are CDMA anyway.

What is the biggest pain in the arse is that we have all these dumb competing systems in North America instead of a real network like every other continent.

With my last job I had a T68i with T-Mobile. Worked great in the cities, sucked anywhere else. At least with boring old VZ you can make a call most places.

If there was a BT CDMA phone I'd get one tomorrow. As it is I wondering if it's worth paying $300.00 for an unlocked 3650 on e-bay.

Dammit! (sums up my feelings on the whole issue)

[Jeff Rutledge]

What we need is a phone that can do everything :-)


Yeah, I'm waiting for a Pocket PC Phone Edition with WiFi, Bluetooth, and GSM/GPRS built in. Then there needs to be software and services that'll let me switch from sending/recieving calls over GSM to VoIP when connected to my WiFi or otherwise IP based networks.
Oh, also there should be a GPS reciever in there so that I can run voice activated proximity searches without having to enter an address or zip code of my current location.

I'll take one of those, as long it has the RIM application so that I can get my corporate email in real time.

[kwerner]

Take a giant step back and try to grasp what this is really about as it's core: with GSM, your phone is really the SIM card - the phone itself is just a shell. With CDMA, the phone IS your phone. This is a fundamental difference.

I don't think that's totally true either, it's not the fact that it is a CDMA phone. I've heard that SIM cards are coming to CDMA phones too (as one post mentioned Korean CDMA phones already have SIM cards).

I think the bigger issue is that most US consumers aren't demanding these cool features. They would rather make a phone call / leave a voice mail than send an email or an SMS message. I see people with old (even some analog) phones all the time. Why they don't upgrade to smaller, feature packed, nearly free phones boggles my mind. The only valid excuse I've heard has to do with service contracts. Like mine now with ATT, my evening minutes start at 8:00 which is important to me. When I get a new phone/contract it will most likely be 9:00 evening minutes.

How are mobiles /service priced in Europe compared to the US $? Do you have to pay extra for each SMS message?

With my ATT contract for $30 I have 200 or so any time minutes, 1000+ evening/weekend minutes, unlimited free inbound SMS, and $0.10 outbound SMS. Unfortunately my phone is always connected to a non-ATT tower in my town and it won't send/receive SMS unless connected to ATT tower.

[Scott R]

Do you even bother to read the other comments in this thread before you post your comments? :roll: Dear God man - go read the reasons that other people are listing. It's not just about my comments.Yes, but Jason, here I was trying to refrain from my usual habits of getting carried along with the flow of tangential discussions and reply specifically to the point of your post. :)

Take a giant step back and try to grasp what this is really about as it's core: with GSM, your phone is really the SIM card - the phone itself is just a shell. With CDMA, the phone IS your phone. This is a fundamental difference.That's an interesting point. Two things:
1) I don't want to think of my phone as the SIM card. To me, the SIM card is the most boring part. The phones themselves are what's interesting. While there are more interesting phones (from a geek's perspective) for the GSM networks, that's changing a bit. CDMA has the Kyocera Palm phone with MP3 player, the G1000 lifeboat, and a couple of other CDMA-exclusives.
2) As someone else mentioned, GSM isn't as universal as it once was now that the US GMS carriers are starting to lock some of their phones (or are they locking the SIM cards?) down as well.
3) It's easy to see the US carriers as the "bad guys." There's a few different competing standards, none of them want to let you move a phone you purchase through them to a competing carrier, and they all want to get you to commit to a 1 year (or more) commitment. Nevertheless, correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to get us to commit to these contracts and "lock in" with a phone that can't be used on another carrier, aren't we getting better deals on the phones than most of the world thanks to these "new customer" 1-year commitment rebates? And, let's face it, from a geek's perspective, after a year the phone is "old" and we want one of the latest and greatest models.

Scott

[Rob Alexander]

I moved to Canada from England not too long ago and using CDMA is like going back in time. Phones here have STILL not properly caught up with what the rest of the world has had for a few years.

When you fly into North America set from Europe set the time on your phone back 5 hours and 5 years.


I couldn't agree more! I just arrived back in the US after ten years in New Zealand, and it was like going through a time warp into the past. I couldn't believe the poor selection of phones, the lack of data features, the ignorance of the staff when I tried to ask about things like high speed data access, blue tooth, etc. I mean, these are just phones that you pick up and talk with.... period. And even for that, they're larger and bulkier than my old Nokia and I hate going back to an antenna.

With my NZ Vodaphone (GSM) my wife and I could swap SIM cards, I could get off the plane in almost any country (except the US) and the phone would just work. If I wanted to use it a lot, I could rent or buy a new SIM for that country. That was a great system. This hodge-podge of carriers, systems, etc. is really hard to get used to. The only positive thing to be said is that it's quite a bit cheaper but I'd pay more to have a modern system.

There are many great things about being back in the US, but cellular technology isn't one of them.

[Janak Parekh]

1) I don't want to think of my phone as the SIM card. To me, the SIM card is the most boring part. The phones themselves are what's interesting. While there are more interesting phones (from a geek's perspective) for the GSM networks, that's changing a bit. CDMA has the Kyocera Palm phone with MP3 player, the G1000 lifeboat, and a couple of other CDMA-exclusives.
But you don't have to think of your phone as the SIM card. You just have the flexibility if you choose to use it. If not, more power to you that way too. ;) SIM cards are amazingly tiny -- they don't affect the phone's size at all.

2) As someone else mentioned, GSM isn't as universal as it once was now that the US GMS carriers are starting to lock some of their phones (or are they locking the SIM cards?) down as well.
They're locking just the phones down. While this sucks, T-Mobile makes it very easy to unlock your phone, so no biggie there. AT&T doesn't, but even then, you can buy an unlocked phone on the web or in cities and plug your SIM card into it. No GSM manufacturer prevents the SIM card from being swapped, although you obviously can't call customer service and complain about "other phone use". This, BTW, is probably one of the big reasons cdma2000 vendors aren't high on SIM cards -- it's a support hassle. But it still sucks not to have them.

Nevertheless, correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to get us to commit to these contracts and "lock in" with a phone that can't be used on another carrier, aren't we getting better deals on the phones than most of the world thanks to these "new customer" 1-year commitment rebates? And, let's face it, from a geek's perspective, after a year the phone is "old" and we want one of the latest and greatest models.
You're getting the logic slightly wrong, though. To be more precise, they're giving you a subsidy on the phone as part of your commitment. Great. But if you want to switch phones, you can always buy an unlocked phone and put the SIM card in it. You won't get the subsidy, but you do have the option. Mind you -- you can do this for Verizon too -- it's just not nearly as easy to type in your codes for subscriber information. (Interestingly, you cannot activate a non-Sprint phone on Sprint.)

In other words, the carrier subsidy has nothing to do with the making-it-hard-to-switch-phones thing.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I just want to see a SmartPhone or PPCPE on the iDen network with PTT technology!
No, you want PTT without iDEN. iDEN is a sucky, outdated technology. Sprint and Verizon will both have PTT by the end of this year... hopefully by fall. :)

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

So the gist of this topic is that GSM rules for people who review products for a living? I think I got that right. Well that's all well and good for the &lt;1% of the population that this applies to.
Uhh... how about Europe? Or the rest of the world? :)

In the US, CDMA is got superior coverage. The 2.5G networks used by the CDMA providers are also faster. GSM offers cooler phones, by and large. That pretty much sums it up for me.
For now. Two years down the road, there'll be three GSM providers, and two cdma2000 providers. Coverage will be a lot more equivalent, especially when AT&T starts converting towers to GSM 850 -- they have the towers already, so they can expand their GSM network faster than most anyone else. Hopefully Verizon and Sprint wake up by then and start giving us better selection.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

There are many great things about being back in the US, but cellular technology isn't one of them.
As of this moment, absolutely. However, we do have great promise -- we may hit true 3G faster than most of Europe -- 1xEV-DV CDMA is starting to undergo trial rollouts this year. Our 3G migration path is quite a bit easier. On the other hand, our cellular companies aren't all that smart, so let's see what happens.

--janak

[umichboy]

Do you own an Apple Macintosh? I find my PowerBook tends to fit this description ;)

Before you all get on my case, I do use a Windows machine as well. I built my desktop box, but Apple's laptops are pretty slick. Large screens, loads of features, lightweight. If only they were speed competitive...


Isn't that the way technology is supposed to be? Magical? You just plug it in and it works, the first time, and every time. The importance of being able to do that can't be overstated.

[umichboy]

Let's face it though, GSM coverages is pretty poor in the USA. Quite frankly, if Verizon supported a phone with the t68i feature set, I'd switch in a heartbeat. When I travel to Europe and Asia, my t68i rarely drops below 3 bars of signal. When I'm in Michigan, I put the phone in my pocket and I risk losing a signal.

And on SIM cards, they have some advantages like being able to take your phone book with you. I think the phones are too sophisticated now though. How does a t68 store the multiple numbers per contact on a SIM? I've been storing my contacts in phone memory.

GSM phones are easy to steal and use. Pop out the SIM, stick a different one in and you're set. With Sprint/Verizon, I doubt they'd reactivate a stolen phone since you have to give them the identification number of the phone.

[Casio Collector]

Hi,

Well, I've now had a mobile phones in the UK for about 3.5 years, All of which ran on GSM (T-Mobile (formerly One2One.) When I first got my Nokia 7110 the coverage was average - I only dropped reception infrequently, and only missed a couple of calls. When it was time to upgrade a year later to a Nokia 6210, the coverage had vastly improved. In fact, in the UK, I have yet to drop below 3 bars in any city. Out in the country is a different matter, but even so, I rarely loose signal. Now with a Nokia 3650 I have not lost signal for over 3 months.

Last year on a trip to the States, I bought a Motorola Timeport t250 from Expansys (In the UK) for the trip, as none of my phones were tri-band (the UK uses 900/1800, whereas the States uses 1900.) Anyway, I decided to by a cheap pay as you go simcard as the calls would be about £2 a minute on my original sim. I went and bought a cheap simcard from t-mobile and just popped it in my phone and ti worked straight away.

Although I have not had experience with CDMA, from all the reports, GSM has better facilities - especially as now 3G has arrived in the UK (allowing video calling and conferencing), and this would not be possible without GSM.

Timothy Monger-Godfrey

[clinte]

Writer ponders all-you-can-eat CDMA 1x instead of spotty Wi-Fi hot spots: David Berlind wonders whether devoting his money and equipment to CDMA's 1xRTT flavors, which can provide 70-80 Kbps for $80/month unlimited usage (over Verizon Wireless or Sprint PCS) would be better than coping with isolated, non-roaming-agreement-linked Wi-Fi networks for overall use and availability.

This is the most balanced and fair comparison of 1x and Wi-Fi that's appeared to date. Berlind takes the tack that if he could have bandwidth everywhere at a single predictable price, isn't 70 Kbps or a little higher enough? It's a good question, and will be harder to answer when and if 1xEvDO rolls out in San Diego and Washington, DC -- a lot depends on its real-world deployment and use among early adopters, and the pricing model. Verizon Wireless tipped its hand to Berlind with a trial balloon suggesting that $80 might be the price for unlimited EvDO at several hundred kilobits per second.
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2914208,00.html

Sprint Release The SonyEricsson T608 Phone: Petition to Sprint PCS; Over 900 Signatures
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?sellt608&1

[JonnoB]

No, you want PTT without iDEN. iDEN is a sucky, outdated technology. Sprint and Verizon will both have PTT by the end of this year... hopefully by fall. :)


Not if Nextel's legal approach has anything to do with it. They have moved forward with legal action to prevent PTT.

Overall, I see Japan as the most agressive on mobile technology. They have had working high-speed mobile access (PHS) for years and now NTT expects to have full 3G rollout sooner than anybody.

[sweetpete]

Overall, I see Japan as the most agressive on mobile technology. They have had working high-speed mobile access (PHS) for years and now NTT expects to have full 3G rollout sooner than anybody.
Actually, Korea was/is the most advanced country when it comes to 3G. They have had over 100 Kbps data for over a year now and many handsets readily available on the market. This was well in advance of NTT and DoCoMo doing their delayed 3G rollouts.

[MonkeyGrass]

For now. Two years down the road, there'll be three GSM providers, and two cdma2000 providers. Coverage will be a lot more equivalent, especially when AT&T starts converting towers to GSM 850 -- they have the towers already, so they can expand their GSM network faster than most anyone else. Hopefully Verizon and Sprint wake up by then and start giving us better selection.

--janak

So, what happens to the current crop of GSM 1900 phones? I just got a T68i (lovin it!) and I was planning on keeping it for about 2 years (avg cell phone life for me) Are the current GSM phones going to be useable on the new GSM 850 networks? My gut tells me no way, jose...

[mgd]

GSM phones are easy to steal and use. Pop out the SIM, stick a different one in and you're set. With Sprint/Verizon, I doubt they'd reactivate a stolen phone since you have to give them the identification number of the phone.

GSM phone can also be blocked. I had two phones (SE T68 and Nokia 6210) snatched from my hands in the space of a month. Within 30 minutes of being stolen, and before I could alert my carrier, the thieves had made over $150 of calls to 4 different countries on one of the phones. As of this month, it is now possible to order the carrier to not only block the SIM card (they always did this) but also the phone. The carrier is now required to by law. Hopefully, this will discourage theft, unless the 30 minutes of free phone calls they got was reason enough to steal the phone. I am almost certain that this was an EU-wide directive because phone theft has become the number one cause for muggings in most major European cities. With this directive, a blocked stolen phone cannot be used in any of the EU countries--in theory.

Believe it or not, it was not in the interest of the carrier to block phones. My phones were locked to the Spanish carrier Telefónica. So, the thief or purchaser of my phone would have unlock my phones from my carrier, or use my carrier's SIMs which is a good deal for the carrier. Telefónica will no longer be able to benefit from the use of phones reported as stolen on their network. And, neither will any other carrier within the EU.

[Daimaou]

Overall, I see Japan as the most agressive on mobile technology. They have had working high-speed mobile access (PHS) for years and now NTT expects to have full 3G rollout sooner than anybody.
Actually, Korea was/is the most advanced country when it comes to 3G. They have had over 100 Kbps data for over a year now and many handsets readily available on the market. This was well in advance of NTT and DoCoMo doing their delayed 3G rollouts.

Japan and Korea are not exactly the same country in terms of seize, so it is why

BUT Why Korea is now a bit ahead of Japan, is simply due to their customers... who are the customers in Japan who want new mobile phone...

Women, and the don't care about 3G, they anly care about taking pictures, and video, and the worst of all, it is not for sending them to someone else via mail, no they will print it on their Printer by using IRDA ou Calbe and for the Video the Same since these Mobiles Phone also got SD card slot...
Men In Japan are honsetly reluctant to Hitech.... you cannot imagine that most of the Working Guys (30~50) are still using very old mobile phone... And few of them are using PDA and Computers... only at the Office.
They Buy it just because it is Hip or Nice or in order to not look too stupid.
There are some guys crazy about Hitech but everybody look at them like some Hentai Otaku (Strange crazy guys)
So Japan Mobile phones are for the FUN, taking picture/Video, and sending Email. (I can bet you that MS will have a hard time to sell Smartphone in Japan since Japanese needs are not made for this Kind Of products)

In Korea it is more to Show off, like I am a Great Business man, I am dealing with Million US per day so I need the best very quick and everywhere connected to my PDA ou PC (China the Same)

China and Korea are Moeny Driven People it is in their culture "Lai See" For exemple (The Red Pocket Money) when Japan is more concentrated on Virtue...

Please don't take it like a hard racism point of view, I was Living in China Before and I am married to a Korean/Japanese Lady and now we are living Back to her country Japan

[Daimaou]

In order to stress my point please read this.

http://www.wirelesswatchjapan.com/nl/0304.shtml

I am the Gonzague-Alexandre GAY of this article

"++ Viewpoint: Korea, Japan, Pastel-Hued PDAs, and Has Cannes Come to Tokyo?

The last News Item in today's newsletter (see "Wireless Surprise: In Japan and Korea, Mobile Content is Making Money" below) is an interesting story and well worth reading in its entirety (see additional commentary after the extract). There's a growing amount of interaction and seeding between the Japanese and Korean wireless space, and it's going to become more difficult if not impossible for me to brag that Japan - and, by extension, Tokyo - is the center of the mobile universe.

On February 21, KDDI (finally) launched Qualcomm's BREW (binary runtime for wireless) environment on a new Toshiba handset, the A5304T. We've got a great interview coming up in the March 12 edition of the WWJ Video newsmagazine with Qualcomm's BREW project manager, Ted Nozaki, but the interesting point here is that among the 21 BREW applications available for download via EZweb, several come from Korean providers. That has to be a first!

WWJ sr. contributing editor Michael Thuresson dropped me a note late last week commenting on the growing Korea-Japan ties. He mentions that the Korean government has set up the "iPark Tokyo" IT-related venture support complex housing several Korean wireless application developers aiming to do business on Japan's wireless webs. He adds that, "iPark Silicon Valley is interested in utilizing this relationship to bring both Japanese and Korean content into the US market." Mike cited one good example of this: Web Eng Korea, a developer/aggregator. "They opened a North American office for distribution in the US market, and have named themselves 'Tsunami.' They're apparently actively looking for Japanese content to import as well."

I also received feedback on my editor's comments accompanying last week's WWJ Video Newsmagazine ("Smartphones Stir Up Japan's Mobile Market" - a look at Nokia's Communicator now available in Japan) from Gonzague-Alexandre Gay, a self-described former consultant for the International Telecommunication Union.

He agreed that the PDA is not a "Japanese" device, and supplied some reasons why that may be. "If you look around," he wrote, "you will see that the keitai [business] in Japan is more a 'woman' business than in Europe or the US. Young women (15-35 years old) upgrade their phone almost every time that a new one is released; mobile phones with built-in cameras were bought first by women and it is these clients that Japanese carriers are targeting." I agreed that he was largely correct.

Gonzague-Alexandre went on to state that, in Japan, the mobile business is the business of 'fun' and that the phone is not necessarily a productivity tool - in contrast to how European and US device makers approach the problem. He agrees that in those markets, this may be changing as younger male professionals increasingly adopt mobile devices that are as 'fun' as they are useful - e.g. the P800 Ericsson or Nokia 7650. But he asserts that, in Japan, businessmen don't travel much, mostly stay at the office, and so don't really need smartphones. "His Keitai and maybe his laptop are good enough."

He finished with the observation that, "In Japan, women don't care if they can have Outlook, Word, or Excel in their keitai." He says that most of the smartphones in Europe are still "too big and business oriented," like the Nokia Communicator, et al. "So, until a smartphone brings 'fun' and pleasure in a small form factor designed for Japanese women, we won't see such devices in Japan much at all."

I think he's made a couple of good points - and I certainly agree that the keitai biz in Japan to date has been a consumer-targeted business with female subscribers often leading the way. Maybe Nokia, Sony, Casio, Sharp, et al would be wise to create a fashionably-colored Communicator-like PDA with several applications tailored for the young, female demographic?

Finally, the past couple of weeks saw two lavish events at trendy Tokyo venues hosted by carriers NTT DoCoMo and J-Phone to fete their content provider communities (so, yes, there was a lot of overlap in the guest lists). One attendee at the J-Phone event, held at Zepp in Odaiba, reported that it was a sweaty, raucous evening with content community punters packed in six deep. "There was a lengthy line-up of folks waiting to exchange meishi business cards," she said, adding that a good time was had, evidently, by all.

NTT DoCoMo's event - held to mark the 4th anniversary of i-mode's February, 1999, launch - was a little less raucous and more high-brow. You can read a report on Joichi Ito's blog (link below); he mentions that there were about 2,000 people present, all content providers, and adds: "Most are making money. That's impressive. There were jugglers, guys on stilts playing huge saxophones, lots and lots of food, plasma displays all over the place, art, etc. Schmooze was in the air. The NTT DoCoMo exec team has special business cards printed for the event with special assistants following them around with a box of name cards as they went around and greeted their guests. Reminds you of the good old days."

-- Daniel Scuka

i-mode 4th anniversary party/panel
"

[trog]

I wanted to add some thoughts to this discussion...
I agree the ease of use with a SIM chip is better than any other option, however many of the responses deal with what seems to me is poor customer service. most of these companies have data call centers and data engineers that can work through these problems with your connected devices like Thera etc. You can get your device switched out and running in minutes if you get the right person. the process does need to be improved. In regards to CDMA, most of the cell phone companies are going to a CDMA overlay because it allows more voice/ data calls per channel than GSm or TDMA. This means you need lees towers for capacity and can build more site for coverage. Hence Verizon's better all around network. I would love a BT enabled PTT CDMA phone with a SIM chip. Preferably in the form factor of the Samsung I600. The PTT holdup is actually because Verizon is suing Nextel, not the other way around. I believe the Wall Street journal reported it as for corporate espionage. I have demo'd their PTT and it works well.

[daS]

Be aware... if you buy a GSM phone in the US it may be "locked" so that you can't use SIM cards freely as advertised here.
While it's true that almost any phone you buy from a carrier in the USA is SIM locked to only that carrier, I have never had a problem getting the phone unlocked.

You may have to play a little dumb with them (but just a little :wink: )

I have called the carrier(s) (both for myself and others) and explained that I was going to need to use the phone with another card, such as going to Europe and getting a pre-paid card, and I discovered that the phone didn't work with another SIM. I further explain that I was told that I need "some sort of unlock code" from the carrier to make it work. They usually just give you the code at that point. However, if they don't I ask for a supervisor to whom I explain that I was not informed that they disabled functionality of the phone when I bought it. I tell them that I selected their service specifically because of the SIM card capability. At that point they either give out the code, or they say "but we gave a discount on the phone based on a contract obligation."

At that point, I have them: "Yes, and I can't get out of my contract unless I pay a penalty, so your cost of subsidizing the phone is covered by that. Since I must continue to pay you each month until the end of the contract, regardless of usage, you have no reason to 'disable' an advertized feature of this phone."

While I've only had to explain that point to a "customer service" :roll: supervisor once and it worked, I can't imagine them not giving the unlock code at that point.

They know that the carriers have no case regarding locking the phones. They do it because the technology allows it. But unless they tell you in the fine print when you buy the phone that it is different from other phones with the same brand and model, they have no legal basis for locking it.

[tulrich]

I guess my question, after reading this whole thing, is who decided that CDMA phones generally shouldn't have SIM cards? Was this a carrier- or manufacturer-based decision? Like others who posted on this thread, I use CDMA (Verizon), and would love to see SIM-based (and Bluetooth-enabled!) CDMA phones because I tend to switch phones whenever my contract comes up for renewal.

Believe me, I find GSM very tempting, both for the availability of Bluetooth phones and the use of SIM cards, but its implementation in the US strikes me as being such a mess (who had the bright idea of taking a global standard and using a non-global frequency band? :?) that I wouldn't make the jump unless I traveled overseas a lot or never left the city.

[daS]

The carrier is now required to by law. Hopefully, this will discourage theft, unless the 30 minutes of free phone calls they got was reason enough to steal the phone.
In the USA, the 30 minutes (or perhaps a few more) is all that the thief wants: They go to areas where they find imigrants and sell them calls to their home countries for low rates on the stolen cell phones - a portable payphone. As soon as the carrier blocks the phone, they throw it away and grab another one.

Telefónica will no longer be able to benefit from the use of phones reported as stolen on their network. And, neither will any other carrier within the EU.
With the usage above, the carrier doesn't benefit from the use of the stolen phones at all since they end up crediting the account.

[daS]

I guess my question, after reading this whole thing, is who decided that CDMA phones generally shouldn't have SIM cards? Was this a carrier- or manufacturer-based decision?
It is the carriers - and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Sprint and Verizon control everything about their networks. They will say it is to provide better quality of service, but the real reason is power and control. They get huge kickbacks from the phone manufactures, plus they can dictate all aspects of phone design. If there were SIM cards that allowed the customer to use any CDMA phone on any CDMA network, then the manufacturers would be free to develop phones without carrier input. Why allow that?

Believe me, I find GSM very tempting, both for the availability of Bluetooth phones and the use of SIM cards, but its implementation in the US strikes me as being such a mess (who had the bright idea of taking a global standard and using a non-global frequency band? :?) that I wouldn't make the jump unless I traveled overseas a lot or never left the city.
The frequency band problems are not easy: In the USA the bands used by GSM in Europe were alocated to other things long ago. The same is true for other technologies: FM radio, TV, etc. all use different frequencies in different parts of the world. This won't be fixed any time soon because it would require replacement of every radio-based device. However, as more devices offer multi-band radios, and more of the old analog systems become digital, we may see a global standard develop. But it will be a long time in coming.

[kiwi]

So, what happens to the current crop of GSM 1900 phones? I just got a T68i (lovin it!) and I was planning on keeping it for about 2 years (avg cell phone life for me) Are the current GSM phones going to be useable on the new GSM 850 networks? My gut tells me no way, jose...[/quote]

The t68i from memory, like my T39 is triband... In anycase anyphone I have I estimate a 2 year MAX lifetime. I am a cellphone junkie as well as a PPC addict :) you guys should check out www.howardchui.com and www.howardforums.com on probably the best site for discussion Nth American cell phone topics.

cheers

B

[JMountford]

Finally! I just finished reading and reading and reading all of the statments listed here.

Here are my sentiments on the matter of CDMA vs. GSM.

Remeber that my views are that of an AMerican user w/no experience with cells in other countries. I am under the impression that in other countries GSM is not only the dominant standard, but the better one. Unfortunately that is NOT the case here in America.

CDMA frequencies provide a better signal, have generally more feature rich service, offer faster responce times, and clearer calls than GSM.

The number of services that are offered through data with either Sprint PCS or Verizon are many, varried, and gerally useful.

That all being said CDMA phones suck!!! Here the phones and features are mandated, controlled, and micromanaged to the chip by the carriers, NOT the ODMs. If an ODM is not able to meet the requirements of a carrier the ODM's device is simply not picked up by the carrier.

I know for a fact that Sprint PCS for instance has had Smasung disable certain features of their phones in the past for downloadin or uploading things do a handset directly through a wired connetion to a pc. Sprint Mandated that up/down loads must be performed only over the air.

These types of practices are why CDMA users are limited to the types of phones we can get.

Yes I stick with Sprint PCS because the service kicks butt. There is almost no where that I can't go in America and still have a signal.

Though for a world travel American CDMA carriers would not be a valid option.

Sony Ericsson recently decided not to make CDMA phones, but ONLY for the American Market... Hmm seems odd to me. I know that Verizon was not happy with the new SE T606. And I have heard runors that Sprint was yanking SE around on the T608.

I beleive that a SIM card would be great and I love that GSM phones are so much more feture rich and Universal than CDMA but for me the Benefits of CDMA outweigh those of GSM. Unfortunately for many of us it has to be more about the service than the equipment. And I have to side with Scott here when I say the only benifits I see of GSM are equipment based and nothing else, which I think is the point he was trying to make.

[Janak Parekh]

Not if Nextel's legal approach has anything to do with it. They have moved forward with legal action to prevent PTT.
Oh, don't worry, Verizon's suing them back. It's all one big mess. It'll have to sort itself out, though -- AFAIK Verizon's sitting on a lot more cash than Nextel... ;)

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

So, what happens to the current crop of GSM 1900 phones? I just got a T68i (lovin it!) and I was planning on keeping it for about 2 years (avg cell phone life for me) Are the current GSM phones going to be useable on the new GSM 850 networks? My gut tells me no way, jose...
Fabulous question. Here's the answers I know:

1. T-Mobile will stay all-1900MHz, and has no plans to change.

2. Cingular and AT&T will start deploying 800MHz GSM ("GSM 850") more aggressively (they already have in a few areas). They already have some multiband phones. Presumably, they'll have to eventually set up a handset transition program. Phone manufacturers are already on the move. For example, the successor to the T68, the T610 (http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?id=274), has a US version (the T616 (http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?id=275)) that supports 800/1800/1900 GSM, the first and last of which are for the US.

--janak

[JMountford]

JonnoB wrote:
Not if Nextel's legal approach has anything to do with it. They have moved forward with legal action to prevent PTT.

Janak wrote: Oh, don't worry, Verizon's suing them back. It's all one big mess. It'll have to sort itself out, though -- AFAIK Verizon's sitting on a lot more cash than Nextel...


Sprint PCS is ready to roll out PPT talk as well as Verizon I do not doubt that they will be entering the fray.

[Janak Parekh]

While it's true that almost any phone you buy from a carrier in the USA is SIM locked to only that carrier, I have never had a problem getting the phone unlocked.
True for T-Mobile, but AT&T will not unlock the phone in any circumstances, period (unless you happen to have a friend working in the company). However, there are third parties that will do it.

While I've only had to explain that point to a "customer service" :roll: supervisor once and it worked, I can't imagine them not giving the unlock code at that point.
People in the newsgroups have tried this with AT&T, and the ultimate result was something along the lines of "sorry, you're screwed".

they have no legal basis for locking it.
Do you think someone could file a suit against AT&T for their policies? I doubt it'll succeed (I'd like to see it, but I'm just being pragmatic).

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

The frequency band problems are not easy: In the USA the bands used by GSM in Europe were alocated to other things long ago.
Right: in particular, the military owns the 900MHz and 1800MHz bands here, and did before GSM was deployed. It was a point of contention amongst the GSM association, but the protests of the interested US parties were not taken into account (at least, that's what I've heard).

--janak

[Khufu1]

This is what I have learned from digging around on the web/forums for the last couple of years. It may not be correct but I am sharing what I have found so far. Please correct me if I am in error.


Couple of points about the CDMA v GSM debate:
It can be likened to Mac vs. PC or Palm V. PPC.
CDMA:
It is engineered wholely by Qualcomm. This is good and bad. There is no outside input or consensus but at the same time they can ram changes out much faster. Every device that runs on CDMA has a Qualcomm chipset or code inside of it. The cellphone manufacturers are really limited in terms of innovation. They have to stick pretty close to the Qualcomm reference. The handoff and frequency segmentation and allocation schemes are way more sophisticated than anything running on a TDMA/GSM network. In an ideal world, this would lead to a very flexible network that is resilient to load changes. The problem is it also makes the network engineering much more complex. The capacity of the network in terms of number of towers and overlapping coverage is really up to the whims of the network engineer's corporate culture. In Verizon, they try pretty hard to stick to providing excellent coverage and maintain an ideal network plan. SprintPCS, on the other hand, uses this "subjective" design methodology to drastically overload their network. This leads to dropped calls, spotty coverage, etc. CDMA is smart enough to re allocate a call to another adjacent tower which has more bandwidth open when things start to get flakey. The problem is, the adjacent one is probably just as overloaded as the one looking for help on Sprint's network. Basically, Verizon does it right, SprintPCS does it wrong (bullseye for flaming -- be nice). Yes, 1XRTT(?) is faster than GPRS right now. That is why Sprint and Verizon don't want bluetooth phones. They are afraid a huge jump in data usage would happen and kill their network.

GSM/TDMA:
The logic behind the routing and tower allocation is much simpler than CDMA which makes it not as resilient to a dynamic load. At the same time, designing a network is much simpler. To a point, it is either right or it isn't. Also, all the cellphone companies get together and design the standards for GSM. While this does slow things down it leads to a consensus. It also allows them to innovate a bit more than Qualcomm lets them. It is also a world standard while TDMA is a weird US/Canada thing. Someday, we will get 3G on GSM but we still will be limited for a long time because they networks can't handle the capacity right away. Considering the relatively dismal reaction to wireless data so far (partially the providers' own faults) they won't be jumping to spend more capital on network upgrades for something that is already sucking money away from their balance sheets. The speed limitation today of GPRS is the reason why they are so willing to allow it's use on their networks.

Just what I have learned so far:
Khufu01

[JonnoB]

This is what I have learned from digging around on the web/forums for the last couple of years.


A very good review of the pros/cons of each network - thanks.

[Janak Parekh]

This is what I have learned from digging around on the web/forums for the last couple of years. It may not be correct but I am sharing what I have found so far. Please correct me if I am in error.
Interesting analysis. Some simple points:

1. You're referring to CDMA's "breathing". Sprint doesn't do it "wrong" because they want to -- it's because they're still in the process of expanding their network and patching their holes.

2. You need to separate CDMA as a conceptual air interface from the Qualcomm CDMA standards (IS-95 and cdma2000). GSM will be using the former in a different version (wCDMA), i.e., the whole world will be using CDMA-based technology.

--janak

[jimr18]

So we still have the Siemans S46 that has both TDMA and GSM in the same phone with either auto shift (GSM the priority) or you can set the S46 to GSM only, or TDMA only..with a simple and immediate menu choice built right into the phone. Only AT&T has the Siemans S46

[daS]

Sorry for the late reply. I had some email server problems and didn't get the notice.

Do you think someone could file a suit against AT&T for their policies? I doubt it'll succeed (I'd like to see it, but I'm just being pragmatic).
I have to admit that I don't use AT&T so I don't know what they claim when they sell you the phone. However, if they don't clearly state that they are removing a function of a product that they sell which is available on the same model from other sources then, yes I believe that they are open to a class action suit.

Having said that, I absolutely hate lawyers that jump on these cases. :evil: They charge huge fees and get rich while the people that are harmed get squat. These law suits are a cancer but unfortunately the scumbag lawyers give enough of their ill gotten bootie to the political hacks in Washington and the state capitals so that this can't be changed any time soon.

[Janak Parekh]

I have to admit that I don't use AT&T so I don't know what they claim when they sell you the phone. However, if they don't clearly state that they are removing a function of a product that they sell which is available on the same model from other sources then, yes I believe that they are open to a class action suit.
They say up-front you can't use the phone with other companies, period. The phone is basically the same model, though.

Having said that, I absolutely hate lawyers that jump on these cases.
Agreed. I wasn't talking about the legal process, I was just talking about what's the likelihood that AT&T could be found to have done something wrong. I don't think it's very high, and I don't think we'll see a policy change about unlocking phones from AT&T very soon.

--janak