AARGH!

[ctmagnus]

DO NOT buy the new Delerium CD!

Those rat b@st@rds at EMI (Nettwerk's parent label) put copy control on it.

It plays in most CD players but not in WMP, WinAmp... and it is rather difficult to rip all the tracks off of (at least in my experience.)

For those that do not own a CD player (a surprisingly large number, it seems), they'll be stuck with a shiny, new coaster that is completely unusable for the most part. Disc two rips fine, however.

[Janak Parekh]

We're noticing that an increasing number of CDs issued in Canada are copy-controlled, including the new Blur and Radiohead albums (discovered so because there's a site, mymusic.com (www.mymusic.com), that'll let you buy the cheaper Canadian versions and ship them to the US). The US versions aren't, however.

Damned DRM :evil:

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Did you try returning it? I'd never accept anything unless it would play in my computer. I'd be tempted to buy 100 of them open them all, then return them to the store... :twisted:

[ctmagnus]

Did you try returning it? I'd never accept anything unless it would play in my computer. I'd be tempted to buy 100 of them open them all, then return them to the store... :twisted:

Unfortunately I bought it at HMV Market Mall on Sunday and didn't find out I couldn't rip it (I read about other people ripping copy-controlled CDs, why wouldn't this one work?) until I got home on Wednesday. I phoned them and they said they wouldn't accept it if it was opened. I'd try to return it anyway except I won't be back in Calgary until July 23 at the earliest which is four days beyond the three week limit.

I might just try it anyways, except the first 11 tracks (of 13) do appear to be rippable after some tweaking. Whether they actually function I'm currently finding out. But that's still two of them that I can't get into digital format. :evil:

I wonder if the artists have any say in whether this crud (non-audio "audio" CDs, not the ripping) goes on?

[Jason Dunn]

I phoned them and they said they wouldn't accept it if it was opened.

Ouch - that sucks! No more buying CDs from HMV for me then - the record stores need to be aware that things like this will happen, and they should be on the side of the customer. Better buy at Wallmart next time. ;-)

[ctmagnus]

Ouch - that sucks! No more buying CDs from HMV for me then

Just as well for me - they discontinued their CD Club Card program on the 1st anyways. :wink:

[Dave Beauvais]

This is a bummer. I was ready to go buy this CD tomorrow after hearing the song "After All" which was downloadable in Windows Media format from Winamp.com (http://www.winamp.com). (I had to download a stupid license to play the thing, though. :evil:) I don't listen to music except on my PC and Pocket PC, so the inability to rip the CDs is a show-stopper for me. This really sucks. It's gotten to the point that I have to check online to see if a CD I want to buy is copy-protected before I buy.

--Dave

[Janak Parekh]

This is a bummer. I was ready to go buy this CD tomorrow after hearing the song "After All" which was downloadable in Windows Media format from Winamp.com (http://www.winamp.com).
Chances are it's not copy protected if you buy it in the US, though. It seems the music industry has decided to hold off on copy control in the US, but is aggressively deploying it in every other market.

--janak

[Dave Beauvais]

ctmagnus, is there any external indication on the jewel case inserts that the disc is copy-protected? Even something like "this disc may not play in computer CD-ROM drives?"

Thanks!

BTW, Janak... I like the small tweak you made to your avatar. :)

--Dave

[Janak Parekh]

ctmagnus, is there any external indication on the jewel case inserts that the disc is copy-protected? Even something like "this disc may not play in computer CD-ROM drives?"
If it's at all the same as the Canadian versions of the latest Blur and Radiohead albums, there are two noticeable changes:

1. There is a Copy Controlled box on the back explaining what you can and cannot do with the CD;

2. There is no "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo (http://www.gnscd.com/cdlogo.htm), which can only be shown on official Red Book (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid5_gci503642,00.html&e=912) CDs. (Much more subtle, of course, but we looked all over the CD... including that logo would have been problematic for the label, as they are violating the standard through their copy control mechanisms.)

BTW, Janak... I like the small tweak you made to your avatar. :)
Thanks... I needed to take a break midday today, and "inspiration" struck me. ;)

--janak

[TopDog]

Here in Norway, Most EMI-records have this cop-protection. I have a LG DVD-player and the CD's from EMI will not play on it. In a discussion with EMI, they admitted that most DVD-players that also play Mp3, will have trouble playing copy-protected CD's. You are all warned!

Personally I stear away from records from EMI and Capitol Records (owned by EMI and has the same copy protection)...

[GoldKey]

I don't know about in other parts of the world, but I have not really seen many stand alone CD players other than portables for sale lately. After all given how cheap DVD players are, why would most people buy just a CD player. If this is true everywhere, aren't the record companies getting themselves into a situation where most people will not have the equipment to play their media since these copy protected CD's don't work in a DVD player.

[Crystal Eitle]

This is further proof of how clueless the music industry is. If they're trying to alienate customers and drive them into the arms of online file-swapping, this is a fine way to go about it.

[dh]

This is further proof of how clueless the music industry is. If they're trying to alienate customers and drive them into the arms of online file-swapping, this is a fine way to go about it.

I'm with you on that one Crystal.

I've not personally downloaded any file swap music for over a year, but I really think this industry deserves all they get. I would not think twice about getting music for free if I wanted something. What with their dumb copy protection and overpriced albums with only 2 or 3 half decent tracks I have no sympathy for them at all.

The music business must be run by complete idiots, all they seem to want to do is piss off their best customers.

[ctmagnus]

Here in Norway, Most EMI-records have this cop-protection. I have a LG DVD-player and the CD's from EMI will not play on it. In a discussion with EMI, they admitted that most DVD-players that also play Mp3, will have trouble playing copy-protected CD's. You are all warned!

Delerium's label, Nettwerk is a subset of EMI. :pukeface2:

Unfortunately, I found that out after I bought the discs.

[ctmagnus]

2. There is no "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo (http://www.gnscd.com/cdlogo.htm), which can only be shown on official Red Book (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid5_gci503642,00.html&e=912) CDs. (Much more subtle, of course, but we looked all over the CD... including that logo would have been problematic for the label, as they are violating the standard through their copy control mechanisms.)

--janak

Actually, there's no logo on the outside but both discs have the logo regardless of whether they're red book, orange book, yellow book, fuschia book or what-have-you. This is very misleading.

[ctmagnus]

1. There is a Copy Controlled box on the back explaining what you can and cannot do with the CD;

--janak

Contents of the box:

COPY-CONTROLLED. This disc contains Copy Control technology.
It is designed to be compatible with CD Audio players, DVD
Players and PC - MS Windows 95, Pentium 2, 233MHz, 64 MB RAM or
higher; Mac OS 8.6-9.* with the Carbon=nLIb extension and Mac OS X.

However, the Copy Controlled See reverse for details sticker on the front was in a white font on a clear background and the CD booklet is a rather light colour to begin with, making the sticker not particularly noticeable.

[ctmagnus]

Pics:

Front (a wee bit dark):

http://www.magnusson.ca/Images/Chimera_Front.jpg

That Copy Controlled label isn't too obvious. is it?

Back:

http://www.magnusson.ca/Images/Chimera_Back.jpg

[Janak Parekh]

Actually, there's no logo on the outside but both discs have the logo regardless of whether they're red book, orange book, yellow book, fuschia book or what-have-you. This is very misleading.
That sucks, and it's wrong. :evil:

I didn't mean to say, btw, that the copy control logos are easy to see, just that it's there.

--janak

[dean_shan]

This is further proof of how clueless the music industry is. If they're trying to alienate customers and drive them into the arms of online file-swapping, this is a fine way to go about it.

You couldn't have said it any better.

[ctmagnus]

This is further proof of how clueless the music industry is. If they're trying to alienate customers and drive them into the arms of online file-swapping, this is a fine way to go about it.

You couldn't have said it any better.

The last two tracks on disc one are (afaik) unrippable so guess how I'll be getting those? Still backfired in their face.

[karen]

Just makes me sick. I'm probably the last person I know (besides y'all :roll: ) who has never subscribed to a sharing service, never loaned out my CDs to others, ALWAYS buys the d*mn CD everytime I want to rip music, buys much more expensive US CDs since I just just can't wait until I'm back in Canada to pick them up there....

BUT...

The very first time I buy a CD at full price and find out that I can't make a back up (for playing in my rental car - I'm always forgetting to take the CD out of the player on the way to the airport), make a copy for my PPC, or add it to my Media players to mix and match and make all kinds of playlists I WILL STOP BEING A GOOD MUSIC CUSTOMER.

I will share tunes everywhere, swap files with co-workers, e-mail cool songs to my mom, publish lyrics to my website, find the latest copy protection cracking mechanisms, etc....UNLESS, they charge me less than one third of the current price for the CD. THEN, MAYBE, I'll be willing to buy a crippled CD. But only if it still allows me to rip to at least my laptop and my PPC...and maybe a couple of other of my personal devices.

Until ripping got very, very easy (say, in Windows Media Player 8 or so), I almost never bought a CD. In the last 4 months or so, we've purchase more than $1000 in CDs because we can use them personally everywhere on every device we own. If the music machine wants to change that, they'll have to live with zero revenues from me.

The ball's in their court. As soon as they want me to pay more for less, they've lost me.

[ctmagnus]

I will share tunes everywhere, swap files with co-workers, e-mail cool songs to my mom, publish lyrics to my website, find the latest copy protection cracking mechanisms, etc....

Soulseek (http://www.slsk.org) :mrgreen:

[ctmagnus]

Ok. I had a seriously :duh: moment last night. Hooked the line-out on the CD player to the line-in on my SB Live and I grabbed the last two tracks, piece of cake.

And they sound much better than the versions I found on the net.

[Hyperluminal]

Yeah, and that's the real problem with copy protection. No matter how hard they make it to play on a PC, all you have to do is put it in a CD player and use line-out. :roll:

You'd think eventually they'd realize that (especially for music) copy protection is a dead end and actually give people value for their money.

I do think piracy is wrong, and I do have sympathy for the software and (to an extent) movie companies who have their products pirated. But frankly I have no sympathy for the music companies who get their products pirated (of course I don't mean all music artists, for example Aimee Mann doesn't use copy protection and tries to give people value for their money- I just mean mainly the big record companies). Piracy is probably the best thing for them, it's the only thing that could perhaps convince them to improve... :roll:

[Kati Compton]

Piracy is probably the best thing for them, it's the only thing that could perhaps convince them to improve... :roll:
Hmmm... well, so far it has only convinced them that they need the copy protection. And when piracy continues, I think that won't make them drop the copy protection, but instead find ways to make it even stronger. From their point of view, if people are stealing their music, why would they want to make it easier to do so by reducing/removing copy protection? I know there are other issues involved, but I doubt they would see it that way.

"Revenge" is only good if the target knows that's what it is. ;)

[Janak Parekh]

Yeah, and that's the real problem with copy protection. No matter how hard they make it to play on a PC, all you have to do is put it in a CD player and use line-out. :roll:
As Kati points out, all they're doing as a result is to find stronger copy protection. Have you heard of the movement towards encrypting the signal between a computer and digital speakers? The RIAA is hoping for end-to-end control -- that is, copy-protect the CD, use controlled CD player, use controlled audio out, and the speakers have to be keyed to your whole setup. Then you won't be able to easily pirate it, unless you're a cracker who bypasses the security measures. Which you're not supposed to do thanks to the DMCA.

That is, either you'll listen to the music the way they want you to listen to it, or you'll be a criminal. It's a scary vision. 8O

--janak

[Hyperluminal]

Kati, you're right that piracy, in the short run, will just convince them to add more copy protection. And in the long run, it still may not help, but it seems like it has the best chance of anything else, except maybe for becoming an executive in the RIAA and changing them from within. :twisted:
Really, writing letters or emails won't help. And a general boycot of RIAA music, to the point of becoming effective (as in, lots of people), would be very difficult to get off the ground. Piracy is already relatively widespread, and it "hurts" more than just not buying their music. If, after all of their efforts, people are still pirating their music en masse, that may convince them to change their ways. Of course, it also may not, but I think it's one of the more effective ways of bringing that about.

And, I want to say that I absolutely do not support piracy, I'm not a pirate, and don't intend to be one. I think piracy is wrong, and would prefer people to just start a boycot of the RIAA, but I just don't think it would be as easy to do, or effective (unless it became a large movement). I just thought I should say that... :)

Janak, that idea of end-to-end encryption is scary. I don't think it could take place though, unless they figured out a way to make media only play on those speakers, player, etc.. (Which I guess is the idea.) Although I think if they did try that, a lot of people wouldn't buy that music. That's because it's easy to just accept having DRM and such, especially if you use a CD player, where you'd never even notice copy protection. But when you force people to go out and buy new hardware, just to limit peoples' ability to play the music, then many if not most people probably wouldn't buy it, in my opinion.

[Janak Parekh]

Janak, that idea of end-to-end encryption is scary. I don't think it could take place though, unless they figured out a way to make media only play on those speakers, player, etc.. (Which I guess is the idea.)
They have figured out ways. It's not too difficult to do from a theoretical standpoint, and might even evolve around Palladium. The way to get listeners suckered into it is to build in the functionality one step at a time, and then pull the trigger. Already, we have DRM on the file level -- and the notion of "signed" drivers. At one point, it wouldn't be too difficult to require signed drivers, and said signed drivers wouldn't play copyrighted material except over speakers that are keyed to that computer (just transmit the digital bits and have the speakers decode them).

Scary? Yes. Is it going to happen? Who knows. Will the technology be there to support it? Probably.

--janak

[Hyperluminal]

Scary? Yes. Is it going to happen? Who knows. Will the technology be there to support it? Probably.
That is scary, and I certainly don't doubt the RIAA would love to do something like that. I guess the alternative at that point would be to just buy from smaller, independent artists. Actually, right now most independent artists are small, but they'd probably see their sales skyrocket if this happened (considering if they're small, they don't have relatively many sales, and even if most people didn't care and bought RIAA CDs, enough probably would look to indie artists where those artists would see many more sales). That may even convince larger artists, seeing sales dwindle, to abandon copy portection or even get independent labels. If that did happen enough, it could possibly, maybe, spell the end of the RIAA...