1 GB CF as internal memory ?

[maximus]

A friend of mine mentioned an interesting question yesterday : "Why dont they (PPC maker) just stick a 1GB CF inside their PPCs, and address it as internal memory" ? I dont know about PPC hardware as much as I know about desktop PCs/servers ... so anyone care to share the knowledge ? I think it must be the lack of memory heap/address size in xscale processors, but I could be wrong.

Any idea ?

[Enderet]

Heh if that ever happened... Id be the first in line :D

[jkabaseball]

1 gb memory, 400 mhz, all we need is a video card and we can run 98?

[maximus]

1 GB internal memory, 800 mhz AMD superSCALE processor, geforce TI4200 to-go-go ...

[Stephen Beesley]

1 gb memory, 400 mhz, all we need is a video card and we can run 98?

Which begs the question:

Why would anybody want to run windows 98....?

Goldtee

[Enderet]

To be able to run half life on it. 0X

[rberry88]

MMmmmm....Half-Life <drool>

rberry88 :mrgreen:

[Jacob]

Why would you prefer a CF card in an internal slot that you couldn't upgrade over an external CF card that you could?

Why not just provide a deal where you buy the PPC and you get a free 1 Gb CF card with it?

That way if/when 1Gb becomes too little for you...i.e. when you want to install WinME :mrgreen: :lol:

[Kati Compton]

I think the question is more "if they can make 1GB CF cards, why do even the newest PPCs have no more than 128MB RAM"

I don't know the specs, but I'll bet that CF memory is slower than the regular RAM in the device. Plus, manufacturers want to sell devices that, while they meet certain functionality minimums, are also cheap enough that consumers will purchase them. My guess is that for an awful lot of the users out there, 128MB is just fine. In that case, the manufacturers don't gain anything by adding more memory and charging more, potentially scaring off some customers who didn't need that extra memory anyway.

[maximus]

Why would you prefer a CF card in an internal slot that you couldn't upgrade over an external CF card that you could?

Because some people needs the CF slot for other stuffs (GPRS card, wifi card, cameras, etc.) :)

Another reason will be that the internal storage will always be internal, which means you will never forgot to carry it with you. It is ultra annoying when you launched pocketMVP, just to find out that your 1 GB CF is left at home.

[maximus]

I don't know the specs, but I'll bet that CF memory is slower than the regular RAM in the device. Plus, manufacturers want to sell devices that, while they meet certain functionality minimums, are also cheap enough that consumers will purchase them. My guess is that for an awful lot of the users out there, 128MB is just fine. In that case, the manufacturers don't gain anything by adding more memory and charging more, potentially scaring off some customers who didn't need that extra memory anyway.

Ok, the regular CF 256 MB cost around $50 these days. Lets not go too far with the 1 GB.

I think some of us would certainly love to have a 384 MB PPC (128 + 256) even if we have to pay $50 more. I would.

[Kati Compton]

I think some of us would certainly love to have a 384 MB PPC (128 + 256) even if we have to pay $50 more. I would.
Yes - again, *some*. But remember that the majority of the people that buy these aren't the type to visit places like PPCT, and may be less likely to need that much $. And so most people might prefer less memory but cheaper.

[maximus]

Exactly my point. there should be a high-end model to cater the techie folks. and they can price it higher.

[Kati Compton]

Exactly my point. there should be a high-end model to cater the techie folks. and they can price it higher.
Higher-end than the 5550?

[Janak Parekh]

I think the question is more "if they can make 1GB CF cards, why do even the newest PPCs have no more than 128MB RAM"
Sort of:

I don't know the specs, but I'll bet that CF memory is slower than the regular RAM in the device.
Correct. Regular RAM is special low-power non-volatile SDRAM. As such it's quite expensive.

Plus, manufacturers want to sell devices that, while they meet certain functionality minimums, are also cheap enough that consumers will purchase them.
I think this hits the head on the nail. Adding $150 or so to the cost is less attractive. Plus, flash memory does have a limited life (around 1,000 writes or so).

--janak

[maximus]

That brings the next question. Once a flash card has been written about 1000 times, will it go completely dead, or it lose some of the clusters (like in harddrive ?)

[Enderet]

8O This is all starting to get interesting...

[Kati Compton]

I thought it was 10s or 100s of thousands.

[dh]

Exactly my point. there should be a high-end model to cater the techie folks. and they can price it higher.
Higher-end than the 5550?

What about an H5550 with built in CF slot? That would be high end!

Runs before Steve the Ponycar driver arrives!!

[Janak Parekh]

I thought it was 10s or 100s of thousands.
Hmm, you might be right. Oh, well, so much for that part of the theory. :oops:

As to what happens, I would imagine bit errors creep in, although I'm not sure how the CF/PC card specification deals with those. Since CF devices are abstracted as hard drives in desktops, I could very well see "read errors" forming. But as Kati's post implies, this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

--janak

[Enderet]

mmm Im starting to get a little scared... dont want my SD cards or CF cards going bad on me any time soon. By the way.... whats the warranty on these things? 0X

[Kati Compton]

My guess is that you won't need the card anymore by the time it runs out.

From what I understand, some of them also are careful to not write and rewrite the same area repeatedly, but instead spread it around to different areas of the card. So the first 2 megs isn't being constantly hammered.

[maximus]

What about an H5550 with built in CF slot? That would be high end!

Runs before Steve the Ponycar driver arrives!!


Ha ha ha. That was funny. The image of Pony shoved you into a microwave.

Anyway, 100 thousands writes is OK with me. By the time I wrote something that many times to an SD card, I believe the 20 GB models are out, and is priced $100. :D

[Ratel10mm]

Since the speed of CF memory is too slow, why not use a microdrive? Probably need a larger battery, I suppose.
One device that does go this route (knid of) is the OQO. It's roughly similar in size to my E-11, has a 20G hard drive, and runs Windows XP. In full. Comes with a screen (4", I think), and will basically blow a PDA out of the water.
Unfortunately, at the moment it looks like vapourware. Apparently there are working prototypes, but no manufacturers.

[Janak Parekh]

Since the speed of CF memory is too slow, why not use a microdrive? Probably need a larger battery, I suppose.
And prone to failure.

Unfortunately, at the moment it looks like vapourware. Apparently there are working prototypes, but no manufacturers.
Yup -- they'd better move fast, because smaller Tablet PCs are coming.

--janak

[Kati Compton]

Yup -- they'd better move fast, because smaller Tablet PCs are coming.
You know something Mr. CeBIT?

[Gremmie]

There is a version of a Genio PDA in Japan which has a built in 1 GB Microdrive, I will try to find the link.

[Janak Parekh]

Yup -- they'd better move fast, because smaller Tablet PCs are coming.
You know something Mr. CeBIT?
I know everything. 0X

Seriously, I've read about it somewhere.

--janak

[Gremmie]

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2001_07/pr1601.htm

Its an older device, but it has a built in 1GB Microdrive, so I guess it's been done.

[gwinter]

I think the Toshiba unit just bundles in a Microdrive as storage. Let me try to answer why this won't work. At least as far as the knowledge that I have.

The Windows CE memory architecture is divided into slots. The lowest one, Slot 0, is where program runs. So the kernel, the shell, your program everything is loaded into Slot 1 and above. When something needs to run, parts of it will need to be copied into Slot 0. Let's say the switch happens every one second and that the flash memory last 100,000 write cycle. At that rate the memory that got written to will go bad in (100,000/3600) about 27 to 28 hours of continuous operation.

Kati is right in that the controller in CF card will try to balance write over the entire range. Ok, so maybe 1 GB card is big, but consider there are so many writes to memory that can occur and probably in a shorter time frame. You cannot guarantee that the lifetime of a significant portion of the memory will last a long time. (Want to explain to customer why the device memory is failing after.. hmm I don't know, 6 months of operation?)


So, what happens when flash memory turns bad? I'm just guessing here.. but I think what bad here means that charge leakage of that cell is high (the charge tells whether bit '0' or '1' is stored there), in other words the cell no longer holds data, a bit got corrupted. The controller probably include error correction, so in the beginning only when a few bits a corrupted, the error is still correctable, everything still appear fine. But as more and more cell go bad, you will notice data corruption - the CF card is no longer reliable.

[Janak Parekh]

gwinter, it might still be worth considering having two "internal" slots, however -- both SDRAM and flash, and having all the heavy memory work done in SDRAM. Besides, SDRAM is much faster than flash, so you wouldn't want to do all the heavy work in flash anyway.

--janak

[Gremmie]

I think the Toshiba unit just bundles in a Microdrive as storage.


No, it's integrated.
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2001_07/e1601/doc02.htm

And I'm going to say this, I was reading through several web sites to make sure that I was correct about the integrated Microdrive and I realized how crappy some of the writing is. Most sites just took heavy excerpts from the Toshiba press release. Most tend to say "Toshiba added a 1GB MicroDrive" or "Toshiba includes...". They need to realize the heavy nature of words between integrated and includes.

[gwinter]

I remember I was checking out forums to find out if they really integrated the Microdrive, but didn't get much information. In the end, I, like some others, assumed that it was just a bundle.

Checking the specification on the Japanese site (http://genio-e.com/pda/products/550.htm) (I think they released this variant in Japan only? :confused totally: ), it doesn't mention that the Microdrive is integrated. What's more important, however, is note 1:

※1 マイクロドライブTM使用時はCFカードスロットは使用出来ません。

It says that while using the Microdrive, the CF slot cannot be used. Meaning, the exposed CF slot and Microdrive is using the same interface. But it is still possible that they really did integrate the drive, just that one cannot use both at the same time (does this make any sense at all?? :roll: ). Anyone knows for sure?

[Janak Parekh]

But it is still possible that they really did integrate the drive, just that one cannot use both at the same time (does this make any sense at all?? :roll: ). Anyone knows for sure?
I have a vague memory of the possibility of too much power drain being the reason why you can't use both at the same time.

--janak

[Gremmie]

It has it in the aforementioned link, it says the e550MD has an intergrated Microdrive, but I, like you, searched through old forums and most of it was hazy.