I take my leave...

[Vincent M Ferrari]

It's sad, really. I wanted to like the Pocket PC. I gave up Palm for 6 months. I thought the PPC was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Problem is, I can't overlook the annoying little issues any more.

Sure I can deal with resetting once a day, everday. I don't really care.

Sure I can deal with the system telling me it's out of memory because the OS has no idea how to manage it.

Hell, I can even deal with the fact that PPC's are generally (generally, not always) bigger.

But data is important, and Activesuck is the worst thing that ever happened to handhelds.

I sync with my desktop at work and at home. Guess what? Sometimes they end up syncing, sometimes they don't. Sometimes I don't get my contacts on my handheld, sometimes I do. Sometimes I'll schedule an appointment on my desktop at work, and never see it again until I go back to my desktop at work. It doesn't end up on my PPC. It doesn't sync to my home desktop.

I check off tasks and they don't get marked as done in the handheld. Ever. Yet they get marked off on the desktop, and then when I mark it done on my home ppc as well, I have to resolve a conflict (!).

I loved my Axim, but what the hell good is it if I can't rely on the data that's in it? I suppose if I had one PPC and one desktop it wouldn't be a big deal. One sync and done. It would seem that multiple partnerships trips this baby up big time.

So I'm back to using my Tungsten T. Sure it doesn't have all the wowee kazowee features of the PPC, but at least I know the data will be there when I need it.

That to me, is more important than all the neato skeato features in the world. Data security and availability is a primary feature for me, and as long as Activesuck doesn't improve, I'm steering clear of the PPC. Too many quirks for what should be something I can depend on.

[Fishie]

So how much you want for yer Axim and accesories then?

[shawnc]

vincenzosa,

unfortunately I may be right there with you but for different reasons. I love (well, at least like a lot) my Axim but I've been frustrated beyond description by the "round-tripping" formatting loss of my word documents. Without being able to maintain formatting in my school papers, my PPC has SIGNIFICANTLY less value to me. Add to that, two days ago a co-worker showed me a Zire 91/71/something like that. It was AMAZINGLY quick and had an integrated camera and MP3 player. Form factor was fantastic.

Without the ability to sync my word documents with formatting, I pretty much use my axim for mp3 and avantgo. I can get that with a faster, lighter, better form factor, Palm.

Hate to say it, but I've already started selling my accessories.

[bigkingfun]

I'm not at the point of switching back to Palm yet, but man do I hate this useless Activesync software. :bad-words:

I can't believe how much time and effort is wasted trying to make this whole process work the way it should. This is the one part of the whole PPC experience that would make me switch back.

[PlayAgain?]

I can't understand the problems people have with Activesync. I've never had trouble with it, ever (I have owned two Microsoft based PDAs and currently have an SPV). Not even a little bit. With other platforms I've used, I've never had trouble either.

If ever problems have arisen, I've looked beyond the sync software (whether ActiveSync or PCSuite or whatever) and looked at the drivers of the hardware connected (whether serial or USB) - and I'm no hardware whizz.

As for the the rest, I have noticed that the SPV has (compared to the Nokia 7650 Symbian smartphone) lots of wonderful whizz-bang features, nice screen and lovely sound, but is missing little things that makes the 7650 so easy to use. It's almost as if Symbian goes out of its way to help the user while Microsft movile software expects too much of the user. (I've never had to wait more than 1 second for a menu to appear on my 7650, I often have to wait more than 5 on my SPV).

Don't get me wrong, the SPV is nice, and I am getting along with it Ok, but it's not a patch on the 7650.

For me, it's these issues that Microsoft need to sort out if people are to stay with the platform because these are what make the devices frustrating to use.

Though I don't pretend to know where the line between pretty GUI and performance should be drawn, but with Series60 applications like sLauncher coming out, I know who the current leader is (at least in the smartphone arena).

[Venturello]

Shame you have to go, but I guess its what you need to do so good luck. I do recommend Palms to many people, mostly those who have very little or no tech skills and want a PDA. Being so simple and reliable is good - precisly the reasons why you are leaving and the biggest disadvantages of the pocketpc platform.

Give some hope to ppc os 2003. I would be VERY dissapointed if Microsoft does not solve the memory management problems in this version. The sync problems... not so sure. But it is a different OS underneath, based on the powerfull CE 4.0, and they are going to optimize it so it really takes advantage of the new processors. I would guess memory management, being such a long outstanding and public issue, will be solved on this version.

I was going to update my original ipaq (from loooong ago) this month, now waiting to see what devices 2003 brings out. As a programmer, CE 4 does have a lot of advantages (.net) and we will see many cool and complex application out for it because of this.

Cheers, and enjoy!!

pd. I would have gotten one of those sleek Clie's instead.....

[Zensbikeshop]

I left Pocket PC for Palm at the beginning of the year. I realised that I never took my iPAQ 3970 with me because of it's size; so I bought a Tungsten T.

I have used the Tungsten since then but am about to go back to a PPC now that some smaller devices are about to be released as I've realised I prefer PPC.

I particular I like the ability to multitask - I hate that when I move between apps on the Palm (which isn't straightforward) I end up back at the main screen of each.

The Zire 71's screen is nice but the 1910 and hopefully 2200's is even better which is the other thing I like about PPC - rectangular screen aspect ratio - a squre screen feels unatural to me somehow. I know the Sony's have rectangular screens but they make the iPAQ look small!

I agree that compared to Hot Sync ActiveSync can be troublesome on occassion.

I think that the great thing is we have two different approaches to PDA OS and design which gives us the users a choice - choose the PDA/OS that suits your needs.

I have just had a play with a Sony Ericsson P800; not sure I want a Smartphone yet but that throws in a whole new approach to consider.

[Marc Zimmermann]

The system instability requiring daily resets and out-of-memory problems are mostly due to poorly written third party software. I also run quite a selection of software on my Pocket PCs and have to reset once every other week or so.

This is not unlike a desktop PC where a poorly written third-party driver can crash or lock-up the whole system.

I also generally don't have ActiveSync issues, but that is possibly due to a pretty stable set of quality software on the PC as well as robust PC hardware in general.

[Techtoys]

I know just what you mean. Activestink is a terrible, slow peice of software. On my work machine I keep a guest partnership and replaced all the activesync functions with XtndConnect - mainly because I use Lotus Notes at work. At home I have activesync and outlook, and I get the usual range of problems including unresolved items et al. I guess I oculd use XtndConnect there too, but I am worried it will upset a fragile balance if I do.

I bought my wife a palm and use hotsync for that. It works in seconds and has never had a problem. That is pretty cool. THe bad news is that my wife didn't like the palm, so it doesn't get used a whole lot.

I have thought about using a palm, but I love my iPaq 5450, especially the bluetooth link to my T68 and listening to music on my SD card. I guess I will reconsider again when I next upgrade in another 2 years.

[derosnec]

Oh my secret shame. Forgive me all for I have sinned - one month ago I bought a tungsten C. Believe it or not, it's not that I found anything seriously wrong with PPC but rather, at the time, it seemed like a good time for a change.
I am also not abandoning the PPC platform.. herck I'm still reading PPCT :-) But I will give my Tungsten its year or so worth of use, and then evaluate my requirements and the platforms when it is time to change PDAs again.

There are definately things that I cannot do on palm (video playing still sucks because of the conversions, but it does work). But for the most part, I can still do almost everything that I was doing on my PPC (heck I even have a today screen :-) ). The integraed thumboard on the tungsten compensates for some of the limitations.

So in conclusion, I didn't change because one platform was better / worse then the other, but rather because the C took my fancy. May sound strange, but I understand the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms, and can live with either.

[Rob Alexander]

You know, after all the novelty of these things wears off, the thing that really matters is how it works for you in handling the information that you deem important.

I'm too committed to the PPC platform to consider switching to Palm, but I sure understand your frustrations. Those who say they've never had a problem with ActiveSync probably haven't tried to use it to sync with two different computers. I kept that up for a couple of years, but finally I just got too tired of having it screw up on one or the other system or making me start over with a new partnership. And I'll never understand why they don't give an option for replacing computer data with PPC data when everything gets messed up. That one little simple thing would make the two-computer scenario workable.

So now I just sync it with my work computer. I have a partnership with my home computer, but I don't have any services active except Quicken sync. Ever since I gave up the second set of tasks, appointments and contacts, synchronization has gone flawlessly... but then I don't get to use that information on my home computer so they've cost me part of the value in the system.

And don't get me started on that thing about it not marking tasks as complete if you click it complete on your desktop. I first complained about that problem with my Jornada 430 palm-sized PC. I was sure they'd have fixed that with PPC2K, but they didn't. And of course I knew they'd fix it in PPC2K2, but they didn't. I'm beyond even getting my hopes up that they'll fix it this time. I've simply adapted to the MS way of doing things and I never mark a task complete on the desktop. I guess, like closing apps, there's some deep metaphysical reason, understood only by MS, why we shouldn't do such a thing.

In a recent thread, lots of people were moaning about the new PPC 2003 not having resolution independent displays, native landscape modes, etc., but all I could think was that I'd be happy if they'd just give me a stable PPC and a stable sync utility. Based on past experience, I'm skeptical. On the positive side, I've learned enough about how to work around the PPC problems that <knocking_on_wood> I don't ever lose data any more. </knocking_on_wood> If I did, I'd have to give it up too because data is everything. It's the very reason for the existence of these things.

So if you can't depend on it to have the information you need, then you have to find another solution. And who knows... technically speaking, Palm is catching up fast. If MS continues at their current pace of innovation and customer responsiveness, perhaps we'll be joining you one day after all. Best of luck!!!

[Ramin]

ActiveSync is a big disappointment, and there's still no support from Microsoft for the Apple Mac platform... :( Unless Pocket PC 2003 turns out to be a huge improvement, I'll be getting myself one of those cool new Sony CLIEs with the 1MPixel DigiCam running Palm OS 5.2. 8)

What would stop me? Hmmm... An XDA-like device (running Pocket PC 2003 Phone Edition) with greatly improved battery life, SDIO/CF slot, integrated Bluetooth & GPS, sporting an XScale PXA255. 8) Basically that would be the TI WANDA prototype, right? :roll:

Due to the lack of innovating devices in the Pocket PC camp, PalmOS devices have caught up... I hope the Pocket PC OEMs are paying attention. :|

[flipdoubt]

You guys sure have a lot of PDAs, switching from Axim to Zire to Tungsten and back again. I tell people that I can afford all my cool toys because because we don't have kids, but you guys have many more toys than I do.

[Mr. Anonymous]

I haven't switched back to Palm (yet), but I'm really close to doing so. The biggest problems I have with the Pocket PC Platform are:

-ActiveSync. It's terrible, period. It either works flawlessly or is a complete disaster, and seems to switch at random between those two states. Take a look at the syncing options and you'll find there is no rule to let the handheld win in a conflict situation. That tells me the basic design concept behind ActiveSync was to trust the desktop, and that's a flawed assumption for me.

-Hardware. Sure, a couple years ago when the Palm III roamed the Earth and the iPaq 3600 came out a color screen and CF expansion was pretty cool. A couple of years have gone by and Palm devices have gotten bigger screen resolutions, built in keyboards, built in cameras, and physical transformations (the Clies and Tungsten T). On the Pocket PC side we've got....better color screen and SD expansion slot. I understand OEMs have to include a base set of features to be a Pocket PC in Microsoft's eyes, but the fact that most of the PPCs are STILL the joypad in the center with 2 buttons to each side form factor of the original iPaq is boring.

-W? BIC! I don't watch movies on my PPC anymore I don't listen to MP3s on my PPC anymore. I've done all the wizbang stuff over the last couple of years and now I just want a handheld that works, doesn't loose my data, and doesn't require me to constantly babysit it. That's what my Windows XP PC is for ;) For the PIM functions I mostly use my PPC for, I could switch to the Palm without any problems at all. The only thing keeping me on the PPC platform for now is my beloved XDA. Once you go for a phone/PDA combo it's hard to consider going back to 'just' a PDA. But that's another rant...

[Howard2k]

What I find strange is that on release of the Axim I moved from my trusty PPC2000 EM-500 to the PPC2002 Axim.

The maor difference between the two is that Activesync is considerably less stable. In fact so is the OS.

The PPC2002 interface has improvements, the Axim has much more memory, scalability and better performance but the standout thing is that Activesync is way more unreliable.

I haven't had the back luck that some people have (I don't think it's really luck) and a lot of the time it's ok. But neither Activesync nor PPC2002 are as rock solid as my previous PPC2000 and AS 3.5 combo.

Not enough to make me move back to the Casio or move to another platform, but dissapointing all the same.

[Vincent M Ferrari]

As disappointing as it is to move, it's interesting to see that so many people are having the same problems that have forced me to move... 8O

[TopDog]

What would stop me? Hmmm... An XDA-like device (running Pocket PC 2003 Phone Edition) with greatly improved battery life, SDIO/CF slot, integrated Bluetooth & GPS, sporting an XScale PXA255. 8)
I've had many PPC's the last three years, and the one I have now (Axim) is very stable! I take maybe 10 reset each week (some day none, some days several), mainly due to third party apps...

I haven't had to many issues with ActiveSync either, not since I got WinXP/2000 and ActiveSync 3.5, anyway.

But I'm considering swapping device. Why? Because I want ONE device, and the only PPCPE available costs a hell of a lot more than a Tungsten W or Treo. I'm at the point of sacrefysing (wrong spelling I know...) all the cool stuff I do with my Axim for not having to carry two devices...

[Hobo]

Like Mr A above, I can not think of going backwards to a PDA and a cell phone I love my XDA! I started this journey with a compaq clamshell c1030. When the Palm sized PC came out, I switched to an HP, then to a 548. Now I have the XDA.

Sure I have to reset it sometimes, I think that is a really minor problem. Luckily, I have not had any major activestink problems but, I imagine it would be hell to go through.

I will not be switching to Palm any time soon. It is all personal choice. What right for me, my not by right for you.

Hobo

[Venturello]

Note, I use my ipaq some 2-3 hours a day, mostly PocketInformant, Starbucks to read ebooks and Wisbar. I almost never, ever have to reset. I do have many other apps installed but run them on ocasional basis. I also dont multitask a lot, and close apps by hand when I dont need them any longer.

I guess this depends on usage then, but in my case, pocket pc is as stable as I need it to be. Memory management do suck, I give you that.

[bridgecrosser]

Six weeks agao I had a problem with my iPAQ 5450 battery that required me sending it in for a replacement battery. This was after nearly six months of dealing with HP Canada to resolve a hardware issue. To their credit, HP finally did an awesome job with customer service and made it right. After the new battery issue arose, I had had enought. I sent the iPAQ back, went out and bought a Tungston C and decided to make the switch. I couldn't take the hassle of never knowing if the iPAQ was going to fail on me.

Observation--hated not being able to multitask. Hated the smaller screen. Likes? Great screen! Keyboard not bad! And it just worked! :D I could concentrate on the work on my handheld and not the handheld itself!

The Palm developed a screen buzz and I took it back to Staples. My iPAQ is back from the shop and is my daily device for now. I'm waiting to see what MS and Palm will do with their next major OS upgrade. I like the PPC, but I must be certain my information is secure, my syncing is sound, and my data is secure. We'll see!

[egads]

I've thought about dumping my Axim for a Sony Clie. I've played with some and they seem much faster for every day type stuff. I use Pocket Informant and it amazes how long it takes to draw the darn calander and contacts list. The latest version is MUCH faster but its still craws compaired to a Palm. Microsoft does not know how to do small and fast and I don't think they ever will.

At this point I would not switch to Plam, I would ditch PDA's all together. I've found having a PDA just makes my life harder, i.e. where's my PDA ?, is that a PDA in your pocket or you just happy to see me, low battery, cracked screen,... I think a Palm would suit my needs better because I don't watch movies, listen to MP3's, read email, or surf with my Axim. There is nothing I do on my Axim that I could not do on a Palm.

The PPC OS just seems to be going in a different direction that what I need. I had such great hopes for PPC2003, but it looks as if all that was added was BlueTooth and networking stuff I will NEVER use. I was hoping for a cleaner interface, smaller faster OS. But like I said above, MS does not know how to do clean, small, fast...

I really like my Axim, but its really nothing more than a gadget that I play around with. If I lost it or broke it my life would not end.

[bigkingfun]

In spite of my distaste for Activesync, there are still a lot of things I like better about the PPC over Palm. The biggest one for me is the multitasking capabilities. If Palm includes this in a future OS, it would be a tough decision which way to upgrade.

I played with a Tungsten C recently, and I was amazed at the speed of the wireless browsing. This is likely more of a problem with the PIE browser than the wifi performance, but it was noticeably faster. I was actually tempted to make the switch until I realized that switching to another task then back to the browser took me back to the home page, not the last page I was on. There may be a way to change this, but I couldn't find it.

[acronym]

I've actually been thinking about this since I got my powerbook Ti last year. not being able to sync to the apple is a big minus - you should see isync work with a palm !

anyway - I'm seriously considering the tungsten, especially since I've just upgraded my tmobile plan to unlimited gprs.

anyone use the tungsten w in conjunction with tmobile?

[shawnc]

Just a few final thoughts....I haven't posted for a while and was pleasantly surprised with how civil this thread went. No flames. Nice job everyone.

I have had very few problems with active-sync, and recently I have begun to sync with both my desktop and laptop. I've been pleasantly surprised with how well this has gone.

I think egads summed up my thoughts about the PPC simply going in a different direction than I would like to see. Clearly the PPC does more than the competition, but most of those things simply have no interest to me. My main reason for a PPC was to replace a laptop. Just let me update word and excel files while on the road. Anything on top of that is a bonus. Heck, I never even HEARD of MP3's prior to owning a PPC and I'm never going to watch a movie on my PPC. Just let me work on my spreadsheets and documents. And I'm not talking about macros and pivot tables. Just basic stuff and not have to settle for the total lost of basic formatting. I think the thing that really did it for me was MS behavior regarding ebooks. It just smacked of arrogance and started me to thinking that I may need to consider other alternatives.

Now that I have the MP3 bug, I can't do without it. MP3, SDIO, basic PIM, ability to sync with word & excel, and small form factor. Those seem to be available with Palm for less money and a higher degree of effeciency.

If I leave, it will be with a heavy heart as I USED to be such a huge Microsoft fan. Oh well, I'm off to CompUSA to view the Tungsten.

[Palmguy]

I actually thought that I would try to switch back to Palm. So I bought a Zire 71. It's a neat little Palm, pretty screen, fast, built-in camera, etc., but I can't change the fact that I like how PPC does things better than Palm.

You people can say that Microsoft isn't innovative all you want, yet you say Palm is better??? Do you realize that it is the very nearly identical user interface that I had on my PalmPilot Personal back in 1997?

Things on PPCs may be more complicated, but I like it. Connection Manager is a pain in the butt, but at least it is there on the PPC. Palms may have another 25k some-odd pixels over my iPAQ, but I can't stand the square screen. It isn't natural. Sure I want say 320x480 on the iPAQ, but not enough to go to the crazy Clie.

I do understand your pain though. Some things about PPC drive me nuts. AS is one of them. I guess I just don't hate it that much yet.

I've never had reliability issues with my iPAQ. I know some do, but the occasional soft reset (which is good maintenance anyways...) and I'm good to go. I have had one hard reset and that was due to installing the non-XScale version of JSLandscape. Thank God for iPAQ Backup on that one!

I returned that Zire last week. Need the money for my new iPAQ.

[paulbiba]

I went from a being a long-time Palm to an Ipaq 3955, which I purchased soon after it was released. I finally got so frustrated with ActiveSync that last month I went back to the Palm by buying a Tungsten C. It is a real pleasure to have a reliable unit once more. The C is as fast as my Ipaq and really does everything the Ipaq did (except MP3), and some things much better (Word, Excel and web browsing). I still use my Ipaq for GPS, but Palm has, I think, raised the bar. I will be very reluctant to go back to using a PPC when I need it for "mission critical" reliability.

[egads]

Now that I have the MP3 bug, I can't do without it. MP3, SDIO, basic PIM, ability to sync with word & excel, and small form factor. Those seem to be available with Palm for less money and a higher degree of effeciency.


I like to listen to MP3's, but I like to listen to MP3's while I run. I would never in a million years carry my Axim with me on a run. Even the smallest cheapest Palm would not be a option. A $100 MP3 player that straps to my arm is the best way to go. I've found the more devices converge the less convienent they are...

[Cypher]

I must admit that the Tungsten C was pretty tempting. The easy WiFi setup alone gave me a major pause, but, as others have commented, the ability to truly multi-task made me pass up the change.

ActiveSync has (oddly) always worked for us. That's with my wife and I both synching to the same computer at home and her also synching to her desktop at work. It may well be that it's because I put together our home system and I know very well what's going on inside both WinXP and WinCE.

[ux4484]

I haven't posted for a while and was pleasantly surprised with how civil this thread went. No flames. Nice job everyone.

I too am QUITE surprised by this. If it were me starting this thread, all the heavy hitters (strangely absent) here would have pounded me as they have in the past for daring to speak as such.

Both the Activesync (http://www.pdaavenue.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1925url) and POS use (http://www.pdaavenue.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2026url) have come to roost for me of late. While I'm not ready to sell my Axim+goodies yet.....PPC ownership has been a much more bumpy road than Palm was/is for me.

I was tinkering with a Zire 71 yesterday at Office Depot. Really, it was quite nice and VERY quick (camera was very cool and FAST). If not for the smaller screen space, I could be convinced to put the Dell+Goodies up for sale. But even better things are coming......so I'll tinker on with fixing AS until MS fixes their problems.....if they don't.....I'll fix it for myself, sell the lot, and change back.

[roberto_torres]

I am also considering leaving the platform but for very different reasons. I am a Power user and MS is not delivering. Palm OS on the other hand is making their handhelds more powerfull.

Please don't take this as bashing, this is just constructive comment for MS from a frustrated PPC user that sees the evolution in the "other" platform and wants to see more from MS. MS has always had a technological advantage over Palm but now they are loosing the edge. Darn it just watch a full screen video on a clie and you will se what I mean.

Here are the reasons

Palm OS, has higher resolutions (it supports 320x320 and 320x480 as part of the os not just Sonys), also it now has video (including Divx) audio and there are new 3d games comming Sega even choosed it as its handheld of choice. Also there is a new gamming handheld commingwith palm os that has and ATI video accelerator. Lastly there is full office compatibility Documents to go wich is included out of the box does not removes formatting from documents. Also Quick ofice has native support for .doc, .xsl, .ppt files without any conversion and also does not removes formatting.


Pocket PC (assuming what I have heard of PPC 2003 is true) on the other hand is stuck with 320x240 screens, there is not much innovation exept for more "clones". Office functionality plainly sucks, not because Pocket Office does not has enough features but beacause pocket office removes formatting from the original document on the desktop. Lastly there is active sync wich itself is a problem.

Micro soft is putting too much emphasis on Smartphone and leaving the PPC behind. I hope they don't do as handspring did. (they let their handheld division die to support phones)

[Simon64]

Been reading this thread with interest. I wanted to talk about it from another perspective partly in response to comments made by others about 3rd party applications.

Firstly, let me say I develop applications for PPC, Palm and Symbian devices. I have the fortune to play with a range of devices on a day to day basis and as such can see pros and cons of all them. I am largely OS agnostic and find that were one OS or platform is better in one feature area than the others OSs, the opposite is often the case for feature area.

For me, without doubt the weakest area of Pocket PC or other Windows CE platforms is ActiveSync. Given its volatility, it's no surprise to me that users have come up with alternative names for it such as "ActiveStink". So why is it so troublesome? Well, I can remember attending a presentation on ActiveSync plugins at the Windows CE developers conference in Denver way back in 1999. The presentation was made by a member of the original MS ActiveSync development team and detailed how 3rd party developers could write plugins that would enable for example the ability to synchronise PIM data between the device and Lotus Organiser. My impression at that time (and still is) was that the ActiveSync architecture is too complicated and dare I say it may not be designed as well as it should. To be fair, device to PC synchronisation is not a simple subject and developers need to cope with issues such as coping with a sudden loss at any time in the ActiveSync connection. Still, if you look at Palm OSs HotSync architecture (based on conduits) you see a far simpler approach. OK, I admit maybe not so powerful.

So what's the answer? Well, I know MS has actively been asking users and developers for their views on ActiveSync and how to improve it. They obviously know that it's not well thought of and I hope ultimately it improve substantially. If it requires a rewrite, then they should bite the bullet and just do it.

Another thing, I just wanted to quickly comment on statements that others have made regarding 3rd party applications and how they feel that they can make the device unstable. Undoutably, in some cases this is true. It's very easy for example to write a piece of software on a mobile device that eats up memory (technical term is 'leak') or battery power. Yet the problems do not reside purely at the hand of the 3rd party developer. For example, much of the MS API documentation contains inaccurate or misleading documentation. This makes it a lot harder than it should be for a developer to produce that game that you've just used or whatever. If something is poorly documented or not at all (as is often the case) the developer is forced to make assumptions. Unfortunately, assumptions some times come back to bite you!
:(

[Johan]

Yeah, there's no denying that Activesync sucks! How hard can it be to get it work properly?

I think M$ should make it no 1 priority to fix or completely rewrite it. It wouldn't be a bad idea to give a new name to the software, Activesync has to much "bad karma" :-)

[thatblokekev]

The topic has been very informative to me as I had been thinking about replacing my Palm M515 with a PPC. Having read what people have to say, there is no doubt that for the key tasks of a PDA Palm is still ahead. I always used to think that HotSync was a quirky little program until you read what people like about HotSync. I've never had problems with it. This is through three Palm's I've owned, between syncing between work and home and not even syncing between the same PIM software, at home I use Palm Desktop, at work, Outlook. Being able to synchronise, reliably, is a profound concept with a PDA. It should just work, everytime.

Blaming third party apps for bad memory management on the PPC will just not do; this is the usual line of enquiry Microsoft spits out when it doesn't have an answer. I've never, ever had memory problems on a Palm. Not once. You can't even reboot a Palm in the conventional sense of the word, no soft resets, none of that rubbish. The funny thing is that Palm's beat Microsoft hands down when it comes to office software too, the miserable excuses for Word and Excel are far removed from Palm's Docs to Go. Pocket Word even embarrasses the funcationality of WordPad by comparison.

This isn't an anti-Microsoft rant; but when you look at what the Palm Tungsten C and T provide and how reliably they do it, I don't think there can be much doubt that Palm still lead the field. Microsoft are leverging their know-how from PCs which seems so out of place on a tiny PDA; you don't need to work with the file system on a PDA, you don't need to be able to get at the system software. It's arguable whether you even need Multitasking because of the resource limitations of PDAs. It's as if when Microsoft were designing the PPC they started to lose sight of what it was meant to do and because they concentrated on adding so many features they forgot about the basic stuff like syncing and having a good date-book on the PDA. One of the most common criticisms I've seen of the PPC is how weak the version of Outlook that is provided on the machine.

[jmarkevich]

Just an angle on "power user" on the Palm. If you get a chance to try out LapTopHack and pedit, you'll taste some power that the PPC really desperately needs.

Cross-device macro scripting, full keyboard acess to *everything*, editor integration into any text field, you name it. He tends to update them every 4 or 5 days (sometimes significantly) so I'm about 10,000 man-years out of the development loop :)

If I could get a Palm emulator running on my device, I'd use pedit on it over any kind of editor PPC has natively.

[mcsouth]

Well, I started out as a Palm user several years ago, and migrated through a IIIe to an M505. I loved that sturdy 505 - even the screen was acceptable. Then there came the day when I won an Ipaq 3600 unit - I have been a PPC user ever since, with a Jornada 567 being my current unit.

I would agree that multitasking is probably the biggest thing I like over the Palm, along with the additional fields available in Contacts. What don't I like? Well, for some reason, setting appointments that fall off the half hours just seems more difficult than it was on the Palm, and I sure miss ShadowPlan - as great as ListPro is, it doesn't quite match ShadowPlan in my estimation. And Pocket Word? Pocket Notepad may be more appropriate - I no longer do any serious documents on my PDA, like I used to with my M505 and Docs to Go - MS is SERIOUSLY missing the boat on this item, especially concerning their objectives with enterprise.

I too have looked at the Zire 71 and Tungsten C with adoration, but they both have square screens, and the Tungsten C has mono?!?!?!? Okay, maybe it is aimed at enterprise, but mono sound?!?!?!?! Give me a break!

Bottom line, both platforms have their advantages, neither is perfect (for me at least), and my Jornada is currently my fav over any other units out there (although the Ipaq 1900 series looks great, especially now that SDIO is coming!). I am waiting to see if PPC2003 offers any solutions to some of my concerns, and if the Ipaq 2200 series has what it takes to replace my Jornada, but for now, I'm sitting tight - my PDA future still undecided........

[shawnc]

I like to listen to MP3's, but I like to listen to MP3's while I run. I would never in a million years carry my Axim with me on a run. Even the smallest cheapest Palm would not be a option. A $100 MP3 player that straps to my arm is the best way to go. I've found the more devices converge the less convienent they are...

I run two to three times a week between 4 and 6 miles a clip. I would never go on a run without my Axim. I would be bored beyond tears. So far, not a single problem. Knock on wood. The way I see it, the thing is built like a brick. If it can't stand being carried on a run, then what good is it. Heck, I'm doing the work. It's just along for the ride :D . Thought about a MP3 player but most of my files have been converted to WMA. Also, that would be another reason for me NOT to use my Axim since MP3 is one of the few remaining functions that I actually use the Axim for.

The funny thing is that Palm's beat Microsoft hands down when it comes to office software too, the miserable excuses for Word and Excel are far removed from Palm's Docs to Go. Pocket Word even embarrasses the funcationality of WordPad by comparison.


Every time I read something like this I just want to S-C-R-E-A-M! I will never, ever, understand this.

[egads]

I like to listen to MP3's, but I like to listen to MP3's while I run. I would never in a million years carry my Axim with me on a run. Even the smallest cheapest Palm would not be a option. A $100 MP3 player that straps to my arm is the best way to go. I've found the more devices converge the less convienent they are...

I run two to three times a week between 4 and 6 miles a clip. I would never go on a run without my Axim. I would be bored beyond tears. So far, not a single problem. Knock on wood. The way I see it, the thing is built like a brick. If it can't stand being carried on a run, then what good is it. Heck, I'm doing the work. It's just along for the ride :D . Thought about a MP3 player but most of my files have been converted to WMA. Also, that would be another reason for me NOT to use my Axim since MP3 is one of the few remaining functions that I actually use the Axim for.


How do you carry it :?:
If I carried it in my hand I would flood the thing with sweat on the 90 degree 90% humidity days. I also would not want the thing floping around on my waist for 6 miles either. If I carried it at least I could throw it at the red winged black birds that attack me this time of year :D

[handheldplanet]

Although I've haven't left the Pocket PC entirely, I recently picked up an Intermec 6651, and I've noticed that I carry it with me every day while my Pocket PCs spend most of their time on my desk at home.

I once heard that technology doesn't merge - it multiplies because we tend to prefer specialized tools for individual tasks. This has definitely been my experience with the Pocket PC devices I own.

Obviously, my desktop sits at my desk all day, and while I'm out working, I carry my Intermec (Handheld PC). When my Intermec is too big for me to carry - like when I take my family to watch a ball game, or when I go to a barbeque, I carry my Pocket PC. When my Pocket PC is too much to carry - like when I'm mowing my lawn or doing physical labor, I just carry my T68i.

My Pocket PC now is mostly being used for my Marathon Training (MP3 player), weight lifting, and as a PIM tool when my Handheld PC is too big to lug around. Shortly, I'll also be using my Pocket PC as a GPS tool for my hikes, and for surveying fence lines at my ranch. I'll also use it to track big game populations around my area.

So, although I've pretty much abandoned my Pocket PC for everyday work use, it has found its niche in many of the other activities that fill my life!

[dh]

The funny thing is that Palm's beat Microsoft hands down when it comes to office software too, the miserable excuses for Word and Excel are far removed from Palm's Docs to Go. Pocket Word even embarrasses the funcationality of WordPad by comparison.

Docs to Go is not a Palm product, it is a third party program. The Office integration is poor on both Palm and PPC if you stick with the built-in apps. Palm at least recognises this and bundles Docs 2 Go with some models. Add Textmaker and a decent spreadsheet to PPC and Office integration is fine.

Having made a little defense of PPC, I must say that I would switch right now if I believed something else was better.

Having an Axim with SD, CF and WiFi cards means I have a great device for laptop replacement and for entertainment. I like the Sony NX series but don't want Memory Stick.

Now if there was a version of Pocket Informant for POS I would take a closer look.

[handheldplanet]

egads,

When I run I chose to carry my iPAQ 1910 (plus 256MB SD card of course) on my arm. I use an Asics brand neoprene arm-band case that was designed for cell phones. The case easily stretches to hold my iPAQ nice and tight. On my other arm I wear the GPS reciever for my Timex Speed + Distance watch. I find the two units balance each other very well. Although I've never tried it with my Axim, I can imagine that it wouldn't be too cumbersome to carry it this way.

Right now I'm running 31 miles a week (6,3,6,3,13) and I add 1 mile every week until I have to taper off for the race. As a novice runner, if I can handle having a Pocket PC strapped to my arm, any serious runner could too I'm sure.

Sorry that was way off topic!

[pocketpc_pastor]

I switched to the PocketPC in December of 2002 after a long history with Palm. I did so for several reasons: 1) I use Outlook to the fullest for work and my PocketPC handles all the data fields in any of the major PIM applications (Calendar, Contacts, Tasks) far better than a Palm with a myriad of third party conduits to achieve similar functionality. 2) The continuous synchronization offered by Activesync allows me to grab my iPAQ out of the cradle and run to a meeting knowing that it is up to date. Palm hotsync is manual. Press button, wait, then go to meeting. 3) The color screens on PocketPCs (especially the iPAQ) are generally brighter and easier to read than anything Palm or Sony have produced. I reached this conclusion after months of comparison shopping. While the Palms may have higher resolutions they are still dimmer than an iPAQ. 4) I wanted to leave my laptop behind when I travel or am out of the office. This meant having a platform that could handle all my demanding productivity, multimedia and entertainment needs. I want to have access to as much of my data and media as I can - all the time and in a small form factor. The PocketPC has enough horsepower and wide range of third party apps to achieve this.

This is not to say that there are not issues with PocketPC. Pocket Wordpad (I mean Pocket Word) is downright anemic as is Pocket Excel. :evil: Although, I have not had any problems to date, Activesync is a difficult animal to tame. Soft resets are more frequent with a PocketPC than with a Palm. Memory management is a pain in the ____. :evil: That said, I have found solutions to all of these with help from PPCT (Textmaker, RepliGo, WisBar, etc.). :)

In the end, my iPAQ and the excellent third party applications available for the PocketPC go farther in meeting my demanding mobile computing needs than a Palm. For someone else, the opposite may be true. The advice I give people who ask me about handheld computing is to have a clear conception of your mobile computing needs and play with all the options out there until you find what is best for you. (Of course, that means spending a lot of time in CompUSA, Staples, etc. and visiting a lot of web sites but there are worse ways to spend one's time.) Right now, for me, the best solution is a PocketPC. [/quote]

[Jonathan1]

I haven’t hit my tolerance wall yet to force me back to Palm but I’m getting there. I bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch about the Pocket PC but I still wouldn’t give it up for a Palm for 3 reasons.
-First and most importantly the Pocket PC has a true file system.
-Second is multitasking. This should be mandatory for ANY OS, IMHO.
-Last screen size. Yes Palm has higher resolution but at the cost of screen real-estate. I tried a Clie. I consider it a royal PITA to try and enter info on such a small screen. Increase the screen size to a 19xx and make the appropriate changes to the ratio on the screen.

If Palm and Sony could do this, and there is no reason they couldn’t, I would jump in a hot second. I have the dubious honor of syncing 2 PPC’s on my home computer. One is for personal use and one is setup for business work. From time to time I get some serious funkage when it comes to syncing my work PPC with my home and work computer. Activestink, Activesuck (Pick your slander) has given me nothing but problems since day one back in 2000. Oh syncing has stabilized but the data doesn’t always make the round trip from the device to the ‘puter. I was expecting a massive overhaul to ActiveSync with PPC2003 and what occurs? .1 upgrade. Tell me again why I should give Microsoft my business? If you pulled the fact that I’m more then a little jaded by the Pocket PC from this half-rant then I got my message across. As I’ve said before the Pocket PC to date is the rough equivalent to Windows 9x. It runs, it does the job adequately, but its no Windows 2000, IMHO again.

In the mean time Palm and co are playing catchup in a BIG way. However they are still lacking in some critical areas, again IMHO, but its now gone from a tortoise and the hare thing to a neck and neck wind sprint. I really believe 2004 is going to be the year where Microsoft gets some real competition from Palm. (This is assuming that OS 6 isn’t all hype.)
As for my future PDA purchase. It’s not going to be Palm…..juuuuust yet. Its either going to be the iPaq 1945, iPaq 22xx, or Axim X3. I’ll look at Palm when OS 6 devices show up at my local best buy.

Oh and did I forget to mention IMHO ;)

[thatblokekev]

I switched to the PocketPC in December of 2002 after a long history with Palm. I did so for several reasons: 1) I use Outlook to the fullest for work and my PocketPC handles all the data fields in any of the major PIM applications (Calendar, Contacts, Tasks) far better than a Palm with a myriad of third party conduits to achieve similar functionality.

Palm's tend to condense some of the Outlook fields. The problem is that Outlook contacts has an absolute excess of fields most of which will never get used -- things like "Contacts Spouse" and "NetMeeting Server" which seem to collect data simply because they can, rather than serve a useful purpose. Personally I think Outlook is a very sucky piece of software but at work I've got no choice to use it.

2) The continuous synchronization offered by Activesync allows me to grab my iPAQ out of the cradle and run to a meeting knowing that it is up to date.

That is a neat feature but not a show stopper to me, but I appreciate its importance to some.

I travel or am out of the office. This meant having a platform that could handle all my demanding productivity, multimedia and entertainment needs. I want to have access to as much of my data and media as I can - all the time and in a small form factor.

This is the major problem I have with the PPC; it's gilding the lilly and is about as far removed from business use as it's possible to get. I just can't see myself ever trying to get a Palm to crossover with a MP3 player or video player. I just don't see the need to take convenience that far.


That said, I have found solutions to all of these with help from PPCT (Textmaker, RepliGo, WisBar, etc.). :)

But my point was the PPC should come fit for purpose and not need so many expensive add-ons for basic features.

In the end, my iPAQ and the excellent third party applications available for the PocketPC go farther in meeting my demanding mobile computing needs than a Palm. For someone else, the opposite may be true.

The problem to me is to be wary in coming to the point that a PDA and a laptop are starting to crossover. The basic idea of the PDA was as a remote terminal to your PC that kept small amounts of useful data, addressbooks, diary, notes, etc. Anything beyond that is, at the minute, trying to take handhelds further than they can realistically go. I've seen Terminal Services on a PPC and it beggars belief how that ever could be useful, for example. The most abstract you make a PDA the closer you getting to the very small Notebook PCs -- it just isn't possible to do demanding computing on a PDA, for one thing the technology doesn't exist to do it but also it's clashing with the what the basic concept of what a PDA is and where it's history is. There are still fundamental problems with PDAs, poor battery life, low processing power, terrible human interfaces. It will take a quantum leap in many areas of technology for PPCs to reach where it's trying to go. At the minute all PDAs are hopeless compromises to varying degrees...

[Crimguy]

I'm also a new PPC user. I've used palms for about 5 years, first a Palm III, then a Palm V which stopped syncing about a year ago. I was originally about to get either a Clie NX60 ($290 at Fry's at the time!), a Tungston C or a Zire 71. Then I started looking at the Axim, but finally did an eBay impulse bid on an iPaq 3970. The super-bright screen really got me.

Observations: I am happy with my purchase, but IMHO MS really needs a kick in the pants to overhaul not only Activesync, but also the underlying OS (I'm not particularly hopeful that PPC2003 will be the answer to the latter). Things get real slow real fast on the ppc, bringing the 400mhz machine down to the palm v's speed (33mhz dragonball). When available program memory hits 5mb, the ipaq becomes a molassas machine.

After having a host of issues with Activesync, things have settled down. AvantGo didn't work reliably so I turned it off.

I think the built-in PIM apps are much better than on the palm. The calendar on the palm was way too basic for me, and outlook, while also a bit basic, has more of the features I use. On the 3rd party front, I have been using Pocket Informant, and find it to be terrific except for a few nagging UI issues (e.g. when highlighting a day in the month view, when I hit "New" my appointment should be set for that day . . .). I used ActionNames on the palm which was also a neat little app.

Pocket Word and Excel stink. Period. I couldn't believe how useless they were. The load times on Word are enough for me to never use it again. Excel is better, but still is stripped down to the point of uselessness for me.

I always laugh when I read ppc users who proudly say they only do a soft-reset 3-4 times a week. That is inexcuseable. I would have to do a reset on the palm so infrequently that I cannot with any accuracy state how many times I did so. And in all cases I could trace the problem to a specific plugin (usually a hackmaster hack). In contrast, I use linux and windows 2000 at home and office, and have come to expect stability in an OS. While looking for a pda, I found a guy who had a zaurus who was complaining that he had to do a reset after a month. He didn't have a clue how bad it could be. But if MS cared, I think they should take a hard look at the palm and linux pda platforms. For 90% of the people I know, I would recommend they get a clie or zire 71.

I have to soft-reset every 1-2 days. It's a minor nag since there is no data loss, but there is also no reason why this should be the case.

I'm convinced we're all beta testers for Activesync in what must be the longest open-beta period ever.

On the flip side, I have BT working reliably. Activesync is doing very well since I eased up on "tweaking" it. I find the form factor to be very good. The aforementioned screen is drop-dead gorgeous, and makes working on it a pleasure. I like the input options - block recognizer is probably the most reliable, but I'm getting better with transcriber. I like the games, even though I really shouldn't for work's sake ;-D I like the build quality of the ipaq - it feels more solid than any pda I've ever held. I also like the myriad of options available, most (all?) of which are admittedly available on the palm as well. The multitasking of the OS is a big plus.

Working with the palm was easier, no matter what anyone might say. It felt like its own little world. Everything was fast and smooth. Working with ppc is like working with Windows 95 - you are thrust into windows, like it or not, and things aren't always smooth. I'm having a great time with it, and have no plans to go back anytime soon - I plunked down $400 for the da*n thing. But when it shows its age, I'm going to be giving the palm a much more thorough look.

[shawnc]

How do you carry it :?:
If I carried it in my hand I would flood the thing with sweat on the 90 degree 90% humidity days. I also would not want the thing floping around on my waist for 6 miles either. If I carried it at least I could throw it at the red winged black birds that attack me this time of year :D

I see your point. Fortunately I don't sweat that much for it to be an issue. I do find myself switching it from hand to hand during my run, but I've gotten so used to that that it has become second nature. Don't even realize I'm doing it half the time.

[ux4484]

I'm convinced we're all beta testers for Activesync in what must be the longest open-beta period ever.


LOL :lol:

Exactly what I used to say about every version of Windows before Win 3.11

[bdeli]

I am to using two devices - an iPAQ and a Palm. By far my Tungsten|T is the most stable of both. I do not need to reset my device, close Activestink in Task Manager to sync and deal with loads of Sync Errors. I have been using WinCE/PPC OS from ver 2 - heck I still have my Philips Nino in the cradle on my desk and wonder of wonders it does not need to have a reset everytime I try to ActiveStink.

The more I read about the upcoming PPC2003 and new models, the more I am getting disappointed. I am actually considering getting the new Tungsten | C since I use wifi a lot. Battery life is of utmost importance to me. I can live with a mono jack - if I want an mp3 player I will get an iPOD and I can live with the boxy screen as long as it offers higher resolution.

I have a lot of friends who ask me their recommendation when they want to get a PDA. I normally ask them one question - What do you want from a pda - stability/usability or wow factor? For stability and usability I tell them to get a POS, for the wow factor than get a PPC device.

In the meantime - will continue using my iPAQ and my Tungsten....

[wm5051]

I have been a handheld user since 1998. I liked the devices so much I took a job at a handheld software company in 2000 and have never looked back. The advantage of my job allows me to spend time with just about every device (Palm, PPC, Symbian, RIM) out there. I don't claim to be an expert, just an over active user.

That being said, my personal preference for my day to day needs is the Palm. My reasons are not new - size, battery, no resets, no data loss when the battery goes dead (for a longer time than a PPC). But when it comes down to it, those are the things that matter most to me, as a personal user.

Due to my job, you will find me carrying at least 3-4 devices at any time (right now an iPaq 3870, Toshiba e740, Tungston C, Nokia 3650, RIM Blackberry). But on the weekends an M515 or Tungston T is what I slide in my pocket.

Oh and by the way, managing ActiveSync, HotSync, Pylon (for Lotus Notes access) Intellisyc (for RIM) and Nokia's sync software all connected to one laptop is one of my biggest pains in life

[roberto_torres]

The funny thing is that Palm's beat Microsoft hands down when it comes to office software too, the miserable excuses for Word and Excel are far removed from Palm's Docs to Go. Pocket Word even embarrasses the funcationality of WordPad by comparison.

Docs to Go is not a Palm product, it is a third party program. The Office integration is poor on both Palm and PPC if you stick with the built-in apps. Palm at least recognises this and bundles Docs 2 Go with some models. Add Textmaker and a decent spreadsheet to PPC and Office integration is fine.

Having made a little defense of PPC, I must say that I would switch right now if I believed something else was better.

Having an Axim with SD, CF and WiFi cards means I have a great device for laptop replacement and for entertainment. I like the Sony NX series but don't want Memory Stick.

Now if there was a version of Pocket Informant for POS I would take a closer look.

There are similar programs; DateBK5 and Iambic Agendus. I consider DateBK5 exactly as good as PI, check them out:

www.pimlicosoftware.com
www.iambic.com

[Stealthboy]

And don't get me started on that thing about it not marking tasks as complete if you click it complete on your desktop. I first complained about that problem with my Jornada 430 palm-sized PC. I was sure they'd have fixed that with PPC2K, but they didn't. And of course I knew they'd fix it in PPC2K2, but they didn't. I'm beyond even getting my hopes up that they'll fix it this time. I've simply adapted to the MS way of doing things and I never mark a task complete on the desktop. I guess, like closing apps, there's some deep metaphysical reason, understood only by MS, why we shouldn't do such a thing.


Quick comment and solution on tasks synchronization... If the Sync Options for Task in Activesync is set to "Synchronize only incomplete tasks" (the default setting), the behavior Rob mentions is true. If a task is marked complete on the desktop, it will still be incomplete on the PocketPC because Activesync will ignore completed tasks on the desktop when syncing. I don't even understand my MS made this an option! To solve the problem, make sure to choose "Synchronize all tasks".

My biggest problem with tasks is that task reminders are not fully supported on PocketPC. In Outlook on the desktop you can create a task with a reminder at a specific date time. The reminder date for a task is copied by Activesync to the PocketPC, but the time for the reminder is lost. On the pocketpc, the reminder for tasks is displayed at the beginning of that day, but not at the specificed time. What's the point?

I've enjoyed reading about the merits and pitfalls of both platforms in this thread. I've accepted the PocketPC and Activesync quirks, but hope that PPC2003 will go further to solving them than the current PPC2003 rumors seem to indicate. Either way, I'm staying with PocketPC today so that I can play hundreds of games via various emulators, use VPN to remotely access my company's WAN(to check email and use TSClient), browse internet (via Netfront), read Bible, listen to music, and watch videos. The PIM and document viewer/editor functions, though far from perfect, still do a decent job. I know that the new Palms have caught up and even surpassed PPCs in some of these functions, but the repurchase of new software for the same functionally on a different platform would keep me from switching now.

[bdeli]

I know that the new Palms have caught up and even surpassed PPCs in some of these functions, but the repurchase of new software for the same functionally on a different platform would keep me from switching now.

Palm happens to bundle it's units with a cd with the best software selection imho. Excluding the low range Zire, the Tungsten | C is bundled with loads of software including: Docs to Go Pro, VersaMail, WorldMate, Printboy, PalmSource Web Browser, PPTP VPN etc.

If you purchase all the bundled software seperately you would end up with a nice $$$ bill - which might cost you more than the unit itself.

[sprawlgeek]

I can sooo relate to this thread. but I just can't break down and go back. I've been a dedicated ce user since Windows CE 1.0.

It seems as thought the problem is getting worse over time. I dont' recall having this many problems with data syncing until this last year. I've been round long enough to know that it is not the issue of being a newbie and missing something.

Active Sync is flawed. period end of story.

To stay in my love of pocketpcs, I am now using intellisync for syncing tasks, calendar etc between my two pcs, and using tsync for syncing my files between pcs and my home network.

The active sync has continually broken down more and more as time went on...first i could no longer sync tasks, getting the "combine" error, then calendar, then in box....
then files.

enough.

I will not install outlook or windows XP again for the Xth time. but i will not give up the strengths of an otherwise fantastic PDA.


sprawlgeek

[sprawlgeek]

after upgrading to my IPAQ 3975, I took my 3760 and flashed it over to the Familiar Linux port. I loved the idea of having the "open source" best efforts movement believing that maybe all of us are smarter than one of us thing.

2 thoughts.

1-Linux on the PDA is in the long term a better option than the Palm OS. Multi-tasking, multi-threaded OS, with a strong kernel. Much much better potential.

2. Its not, 3.1 yet. it is by no means bulletproof. (In fact, after having to flash the OS 3 seperate times, still not knowing exactly what I did wrong, I flashed it back to windowsce.) Having 18 month old twin boys, I don't have the time to research the OS better. But I am also holding my breath that maybe someday. we will have a competitive OS that will challenge the present status. I hope that the Zaurus will continue to florish and I may someday consider taking that route instead.....

sprawlgeek

[DaleReeck]

It's beyond me how ActiveSync sees two sets of identical settings and yet decides that there is a conflict. I had to turn off Favorites and Files and copy them manually because even though both the Favorites and Files on the PocketPC and the ones on the desktop were identical in file name, date and time, AS decided that there was a conflict and had to delete half of them randomly. Huh?

Also, AS only tells you what is the number of changed items, not what those changed items actually are. So, you basically have to trust AS if it is doing the right thing. Yeah, right.

The concept of AS is OK, but the programming is just plain poorly done.

[gliscameria]

I can't relate to the problems people seem to be having with Activesink. I had some problems getting it to sync over the network, but that's been resolved (crappy university network). I bought a Tos-e740 and before that I had a Clie peg-s300.

IMHO it seems that they have just over-complicated the PPC, or at least the 3rd party apps have gummed up the platform. I use my PPC for apointments, mail, music, temporary storage, checkbook and rarely entertainment, but I still have to use my PALM for Easycalc and, most important, an alarm clock. I usually equate a PPC to a handheld version of Outlook, with some bells and whistles.

Heh, I really want to sell one of them so I don't have to carry both around, but there's functions of both that I use on a daily basis.

[admdvs]

I am so sick of my PPC. Every night at midnight it turns on for a bit to set reminders for the next day... The problem i have is, that if i have a memory card in it, (i have a few, so its not a bad card).....

about one in 15 times i turn on my unit, it freezes.. so about once every 2 weeks, my unit will power up at midnight, freeze, and drain the battery and completely die by the time i wake up to find a PPC that has just HARD=RESET !!

I came **VERY** close to tossing it out the window of my car the last time it happened..

..adam

[Shaun Stuart]

I purchased a Sony Ericcson P800 (Symbian OS Smartphone) around 3 months ago after being a Pocket PC owner for the last 3 years. I like gadgets and needed a new phone but did not expect for it to fully replace my Ipaq.

I began by carrying both the P800 and my Ipaq 3870 around on most days but slowly started to leave the ipaq at home. At first the P800 seemed a little inferior but this was mainly due to the limited memory available at the time. Once the 128mb memory stick duo format was released the phone gave me just about everything I needed and I have not picked up my Ipaq for about 4 weeks (I actually felt guilty about this).

I am still interested in the new Pocket PCs (the mitac 558 looks the best to me) but will wait before I make my next purchase.

If you want more information on the P800 try this link

http://www.sonyericsson.com/uk/spg.jsp?page=start

One more thing - before purchasing the P800 I tried the Orange SPV MS Smartphone - not a bad smartphone for the price but it doesn't compete with the P800.

[mhoepfin]

Gave up my Ipaq last October for a Danger Sidekick. Hands down best device I have ever owned. You give up a little on the PIM side, but is does over the wire synch to a web based PIM.

Still use the Ipaq for MP3 and GPS in the car though. It actually does very well at both of these....

Mike

[Canuck]

I too have looked at the Zire 71 and Tungsten C with adoration, but they both have square screens, and the Tungsten C has mono?!?!?!? Okay, maybe it is aimed at enterprise, but mono sound?!?!?!?! Give me a break!


Bravo!! I'm glad you brought this up. This is part of the "What the heck were they thinking?" club that Microsoft belongs to. The other Palm foible is releasing the Tungsten C and W so close together with such drastically different hardware and OS standards. If the W came out with the C hardware and 'stereo' sound (combined with the fact that in Canada you can't get PPC phone edition) I would drop my ppc in a nanosecond.

[dma1965]

Frankly ActiveStink will probably be the one reason, if any, that I decide to switch back, and I would have already done so by now if all I needed was a PIM device. Unfortunately, there are applications on my Pocket PC that will not work elsewhere, and I absolutely need the multitasking capabilities for my job. About 1 in every 5 times I cradle my Pocket PC it performs a proper sync. What I usually get is a synchronization error, or the message that it could not properly check for out of date appointments, or unresolved items with ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE what the items are, or the Pocket PC wiping out my Pocket IE favorites, or the Pocket PC insisting it is a guest, or absolutely nothing at all (no sync whatsoever). All of these can be fixed within 1 minute to 1 day of hassling. I only sync with my laptop and no other machine, and have noticed the problem with every version of ActiveSync I have used and every iPaq I have had since the 3670. The mere fact that Microsoft has absolutely no method in place (that I know of) for checking what the error is caused by is dumbfounding, since they insist that Pocket PC is an enterprise targeted device, and enterprise users are bound to be a little more savvy. For an IT guy like myself, a simple log of errors, like HotSync provides, would at least get me in the right direction. Why Microsoft has decided to leave us in the dark is beyond me. This is like being a mechanic and putting troubleshooting equipment on a car computer and getting a message something like "Car is not working properly", and no further explanation. This is not only useless, it is annoying. :evil:

[eappell]

I've owned three PocketPC devices (early Casio/WindowsCE, iPaq 3650, Toshiba e740). I love the capacity, display, and features of the PPC platform, but my recent experience with the e740 has left me considering a move to Palm. I recently had it stolen, so I am currently waiting to see what HP comes out with and will decide then.

But I have to tell you that the constant disconnects, loss of data, hard resets, etc. have really soured me on the platform. I think it's a combination of new chipset technology and bad Microsoft coding, but I can't afford to buy another device that I spend more time troubleshooting than using.

My fiance has a Palm and it's SO nice to Sync it up in about a minute. It's so clean, works flawlessly and provides her with the features she needs.

I haven't left PPC yet, but since you asked... I am seriously considering it. Hopefully HP will come out with some new devices (eyeing the 2200 series...) that will make me change my mind. I just wish spending $400-$600 wasn't such a leap of faith.

Eddie

[Jonathan1]

For an IT guy like myself, a simple log of errors, like HotSync provides, would at least get me in the right direction. Why Microsoft has decided to leave us in the dark is beyond me. This is like being a mechanic and putting troubleshooting equipment on a car computer and getting a message something like "Car is not working properly", and no further explanation. This is not only useless, it is annoying. :evil:


Actually there is a log on the PC side. Alas I'm redoing my computer and have yet to reinstall activestink. Do a search under C:\Documents and Settings\*CE*.log Its there somewhere. I think it might even be in your temp directory. I would like to see a log file on the PPC side as well. :\

[thatblokekev]

after upgrading to my IPAQ 3975, I took my 3760 and flashed it over to the Familiar Linux port. I loved the idea of having the "open source" best efforts movement believing that maybe all of us are smarter than one of us thing.


I have to admit this is the most exciting of the options for the iPaq; even HP thinks so as they've got a link on their site: http://h21007.www2.hp.com/dspp/dev/products/topic/1,,10116,00.html

It could address a lot of the major failings of the PPC. It seems to me the problem with the PPC is the operating system, not the hardware.

1-Linux on the PDA is in the long term a better option than the Palm OS. Multi-tasking, multi-threaded OS, with a strong kernel. Much much better potential.

Over the long term Linux could be better because its much more scalable. It's weakness ironically though is all the Unix baggage that comes with it, Unix's arcane file structure, the command prompt, etc. Tidy those bits up and you have a winner. For a PDA to win it has to be many steps removed from being a nerd toy, it has to be a productivity device or it'll die in the enterprise. Although it hasn't as many third-party apps as Palm or PPC, it does have some extremely high quality apps like those from thekompany.com. It also gets to leverage all the expertise put into mainstream Linux on the desktop and server level. Over time the synergy between all these platforms requiring only one development effort will become irresistable.

I hope that the Zaurus will continue to florish and I may someday consider taking that route instead...

The Zaurus is a very sexy machine and lets face it, better equipped than any PPC or Palm out there on a dollar-for-dollar comparison. It comes with a suite of some serious cool applications, an adventurous design and some great sync software. Very, open, they inculde IntelliSync so you can sync with almost any PIM you want. It really only falls down in two places: Sharp charge _way_ too much for things like extra cradles. The installation of applications is also a bit basic. Other than that, it's a very fine machine.

[chris234]

I've switched several months ago from a first-generation iPaq back to a Palm 515. The major issue for me has been network connectivity, email clients for the PPC have been lacking (although @mail may fix that to a degree). I need IMAP support with SSL, and I haven't seen that on the PPC yet, while a few clients on the Palm have it. Frankly, there are some features I'd really like to see in those clients as well, such as copying from local mailboxes back to an IMAP box, but at least I can get my mail.

For what it's worth, my personal award for worst PDA mail client goes to the bundled one on the Sharp Zaurus.

I also prefer how Avantgo works on the Palm to the PPC behavoir, being able to refresh single pages when connected to the net.

I do still use PPCs in limited contexts, mainly in wireless LAN debugging.

[MikeUnwired]

Someone at the beginning of this thread mentioned that the Palm interface is about tha same as it was on the original devices. Well, is that a bad thing? It's nice to have a familiar system to interact with.

I picked-up a Dell Axim X5 Basic to use to provide tech support and I'm pleasantly surprised with the speed and functionality -- even at 300 MHz. But, I also have a Palm Tungsten T -- which I really like -- and just got a Sony T-G50 -- again, for support.

The Sony -- my first Sony PDA after many other brands -- is both a breath of fresh air and a learning experience. The interface is different BTW -- a little different. The thinness is great -- I can slip it in a standard portfolio pocket. Integrated hard cover -- again, great, except I have to open it when I'm Hotsyncing to see what's up. It's a little more complicated to figure out how to use that the typical Palm product, but no more so the the typical Pocket PC product.

The jury seems likt it's always out for me as new stuff comes out and tempts me. I'm just happy I have the choices and the ability to act on them on occasion.

[dma1965]

I do still use PPCs in limited contexts, mainly in wireless LAN debugging.

802.11 is one thing on the PPC platform that works remarkebly well with good hardware and software, such as the Socket WiFi card and software (VERY well thought out in my opinion). Frankly, the Achilles heal is really just ActiveSync. While Palm flourishes in this area, it too has its weaknesses. I have a friend who does not ever sync his Pocket PC, opting to use it as a day to day phonebook and calendar, and he just despises outlook. He never complains about his device, and loves it to death. I keep 5 backups of my synced file folder, money file, and outlook.pst, and also copy the documents directory on my defice to the filestore every few days just to be sure I do not lose the data, having lost it twice during a bad sync. For mission critical data, this is just not an accdeptable solution. My anal backup regimen keeps me going, but I have to be vigilant, and there is no way Joe Average User would be willing to accept this. If Microsoft does not fix these issues, the platform is doomed to be the red headed stepchild of the UberGeeks that frequent these forums. :!:

[dma1965]

Sorry about all the misspellings in my last post. I was trying to multitask, and my brain is on PalmOS mode today. :mrgreen:

[rubberdemon]

I've been a Pocket PC person for a couple of years now, coming from a Visor, which in its turn replaced a Philips Nino, so I've seen both worlds, like many on this thread.

When I moved from the Nino to the Visor, I was delighted at Palm's ease of use and speed, and seriously thought I'd not go back to MS, but then I started missing multitasking, digital music, and colour, and especially the lack of a real filesystem.

And now, though I like my XDA well enough, I'm seriously thinking about just getting a good cellphone and a tablet PC sometime this year. Why? Well, I just can't use a PPC as a desktop replacement - my needs are too specific to software like Dreamweaver, Photoshop, and a GOOD word processor. All I really use it for these days is listening to music, checking email, doing light websurfing and having all my contacts and appointments from Outlook with me. If a phone can give me those in a small form factor, then I might just forget the PDA entirely... and have a small/light tablet pc for serious work and portability.

[Jonathan1]

Someone at the beginning of this thread mentioned that the Palm interface is about tha same as it was on the original devices. Well, is that a bad thing? It's nice to have a familiar system to interact with.


Please don't take this as a flame but that's like saying just because Windows 3.11 had a familiar interface there was no reason to use the start menu or the better file browser.
Heck I love using DOS. Its an interface I know and like but imagine if the entire world used the DOS prompt instead of a GUI.

Whether you love or hate the Pocket PC most have to admit one thing. It got Palm off its lazy butt and started innovating. Yes the GUI is almost identical but Sony and third party apps have done much to clean this problem up. A friend of mine has a Clie and with some 3rd party apps you can barely tell its a Palm OS. Heck if this pict is real
http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/possible_palm_os6_ss_l.jpg
then OS 6 could be a major step up for Palm

[thatblokekev]

... and especially the lack of a real filesystem.


The question though is "what is a real file system"? We constantly refer to a very basic paradigm of files on a storage medium. Manipulating these objects should be irrelevent to what they contain -- we end up defining data by how we physically arrange it which I'd say, coming froma database background, is completely wrong. On my Palm M515 I have no idea what the date book or contacts database physically looks like. I don't have to; Oracle realised this years ago and went to great lengths to separate data from the underlying files. We still end up wrestling with a hopeless outdated way of looking at data. There is no reason why all your data on a PPC or Palm couldn't be contained within a single binary file of which you have no means of directly managing.

The way Microsoft has went means we're still battling with the legacy of MS-DOS, a very imperfect of managing data if there ever was one. The connection of data to the file system should be at the very lowest level and away from the interfering fingers of users. PPC has no metadata, no object orientation, no heterogeneous way of managing and searching through all the data on the object. We need solid-state file systems, not a generic ability to list files based on a DOS concept more than 20 years out of date.

[Perry Reed]

I haven't "left" the Pocket PC, but I find myself using my Jornada less often lately. Why? Because I have a laptop now.

Most of my time is spent doing email or web browsing, and despite my of third-party tools, like @Mail and Skweezer, the Pocket PC is still sadly deficient in those two areas.

However, there are times when carrying my laptop is too inconvenient and it's those times when I still use my PPC. But if I ever get a nice small Tablet PC, I'll be hard-pressed to justify continued use of the PPC. Although if I ever find a nice phone edition that works on Sprint Vision PCS, that could change.

[Dr. Grabow]

I use a Tungsten C, and have a Toshiba 755 I'm *trying* to like. Regarding a "real" filesystem, I'm glad Palm doesn't have one. Twice I've lost data on HanDbase for PPC because of the device crashing and requiring a reset; that has never happened on the Palm. Unlike for PPC, there is no "save file" command on the Palm because you don't need to. On PPC, your data is at risk, at least with HanDbase, because of the PC-like filesystem.

The speed of the Tungsten is just so much greater that it makes using it a pleasure. But, I loathe the tiny screen and Grafitti 2 just plain stinks.

Why can't anyone make the perfect PDA? The screen of the Toshiba, the stability and speed of the Palm OS, and the removable battery of the Toshiba, with the battery life of the Palm, with the built-in microphone/voice recorder of the Toshiba, and so on, and so on ...

[Janak Parekh]

There is no reason why all your data on a PPC or Palm couldn't be contained within a single binary file of which you have no means of directly managing.
Yes, and no. I see what side of the filesystem debate you're on. ;) I have to say I'm on the other side, largely because I haven't been convinced that the current abstraction solutions really work. The file metaphor does work, perhaps imperfectly, for a large variety of data, and I do need to directly manipulate things. Like it or not, a PDA is a desktop companion, and until we come up with a grand unified vision of how to manipulate objects at a higher-level, this abstraction hurts functionality.

The way Microsoft has went means we're still battling with the legacy of MS-DOS, a very imperfect of managing data if there ever was one.
You can't blame Microsoft for this. If you will, why not CP/M, UNIX, or even Multics? This is how computers have evolved. If anything, MS is building a SQL backing store in Longhorn, and will be the first truly mainstream OS to do so. Apple has had metadata for a long time, but they seem to be moving towards file extension-based semantics in Jaguar. Go figure. :)

--janak

[jffcurt]

Ever since getting my Nokia 3650 (Symbian Series 60 OS), I've been astounded at how easy it is to use. It does 90% of what my Ipaq 5450 does without the confusion. The PCSuite software which you can only use with IR or Bluetooth has always performed the way it's suppose to. The only thing I can't use it for is syncing with my Outlook software at work and that's only because my work computer doesn't have bluetooth.

I'm going to change my mind and say it does 95% of what my ipaq does. I forgot that I can send email anywhere and everywhere, wherever I am.

Jeff

[Perry Reed]

Regarding a "real" filesystem, I'm glad Palm doesn't have one. Twice I've lost data on HanDbase for PPC because of the device crashing and requiring a reset; that has never happened on the Palm. Unlike for PPC, there is no "save file" command on the Palm because you don't need to. On PPC, your data is at risk, at least with HanDbase, because of the PC-like filesystem.

I think it's interesting that most of us would consider the PPC's "real" filesystem an advantage over the Palm, and yet Microsoft is replacing the Windows filesystem with a SQL-Server-based database file system in Longhorn, which seems to me to be something closer to Palm, albeit far more powerful.

[Jason Lee]

I have always been a Win CE user... since 1.0. I don't ever see my self switching to palm. I am a tech guy for a university and "power" use my PPC way too much to ever be able to live with a palm. I admin servers all the time, have a access database setup for my "work to do" which automatically syncs with my web server to display and asp page so people can see where they are in the list. I use wireless and trouble shoot wired jacks with my PPC. I even write 20+ page papers for classes on my PPC (with external keyboard of course) then sync them over when I am done and format them in desktop word before turning them in. I quit using my laptop when I got my first Win CE device. I have a Toshiba E740 now and don't really see anything better out there for me at the moment.

Yes activesync is worthless.. For some reason I cannot sync favorites on my work computer now... It works just fine at home but when activesync is running down the list of sync items when you drop it in the cradle the window just dissapears when it gets to favorites.... :? If I uncheck favorites everything works fine... I dunno.. :roll:

The one thing that really bumbs me out this all the cool hardware inovation comming from the other OSs. Mainly the cool Sony palms. I couldn't use one for what I need but, man, I would love to have one to play with.. :lol:
The best is the new Zarus with the landscape screen and the little keyboard. You rotate the screen and lay it flat and you have a ppc portrait style interface. Just like the fancy Sonys rotate and cover the keyboard but this one goes from landscape to protrait.

If I ever switch it will be to a linux pda. But as it is the software availability/compatability isn't quite there yet, but getting reallllyyy close last time I looked. This is also the same reason I don't run linux at home yet.

I am also irritated that I cannot get a good pda/mobile phone combo in my area. There are almost 10 diferent palm/symbian os phones availble in my area but only one PPCPE. T-mobile and AT&T have the XDA but that isn't a very good PPC and there is almost no GMS coverage here.

So, in conclution, my next device will be the Samsung i700 through Sprint... if it ever comes out. :cry: No verizon in my area either..

I suppose by the time it does come out there will be some very cool CDMA PPCPE from HP or some one just ahead so I will have to wait again...

Just make it stop.... :cry:

[mobileMike]

Hi,

My background: Palm IIIx, iPAQ 3850 (PPC), iPAQ 3850 (Linux), Nokia 3650

I find the problem with any of my devices is me. I just can't leave them alone. It was "Hacks" on the Palm, task managers on the PPC, and everything on Linux.

I loved the size of my Palm with hard cover until I cracked the screen. I love the power of my iPAQ. I do most of my data entry at work where I use a laptop. On my PDA I was basically reading (contacts, calendar, books, web), playing games, listening to music.

Now I have the 3650 which allows me to do all the reading I was doing with my PDA (books, contacts, calendar, web), I can play games, I could listen to music (I don't, it is horrible mono). The size is better than my old Palm and it has a camera. For those times I need to write something (SMS, Email, Note, PIM) the predictive text entry is OK.

I never carry my PDA anymore but I play with it all the time. The best part of the Linux PDA (Familiar) is that you can chat with the developers about any idea you have. They will help and encourage you to develop the feature yourself, but if that is not possible they also listen and explain why or why not your idea will be implemented. I have been extremely impressed with the community surrounding the Opie and GPE UIs developed on-top of Familiar Linux.

This community is great too, but I don't think any of you are developers of Microsoft PocketPC.

That said, my next PDA will be a Sharp PDA which can be used like a mini-laptop or PDA with it's swivel screen.

[rubberdemon]

Though I understand the file concerns above, the whole filesystem debate becomes much more pressing when you have to deal with email attachments and any sort of website / server maintenance from your PPC, then you need to be able to put html, txt, whatever files in a directory, and upload them etc... I wanted to do this with my old Palm, but realized it just wasn't going to be easy, if even possible. I don't know if this has changed at all.

[MikeUnwired]

Someone at the beginning of this thread mentioned that the Palm interface is about tha same as it was on the original devices. Well, is that a bad thing? It's nice to have a familiar system to interact with.


Please don't take this as a flame but that's like saying just because Windows 3.11 had a familiar interface there was no reason to use the start menu or the better file browser.
Heck I love using DOS. Its an interface I know and like but imagine if the entire world used the DOS prompt instead of a GUI.

Whether you love or hate the Pocket PC most have to admit one thing. It got Palm off its lazy butt and started innovating. Yes the GUI is almost identical but Sony and third party apps have done much to clean this problem up. A friend of mine has a Clie and with some 3rd party apps you can barely tell its a Palm OS. Heck if this pict is real
http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/possible_palm_os6_ss_l.jpg
then OS 6 could be a major step up for Palm

I understand the point about the interface -- with the START menu and such, but the Palm GUI isn't so bad the way it is. The OS 6 graphic adds the file folder type navigation at the top of the screen, but retains a significant part of the look and feel that Palm has had over the years.

I content that the simplicity of the Palm screen layout is part of it's attraction. On a PPC, I have to navigate menus for PROGRAMS and SETTINGS to locate the function of choice. With the Palm, I select an icon on the screen. I cna isolate functions into categories if I want (ie: ALL, BUSINESS, SYSTEM, GAMES, etc...) Where this GUI fails is in switching between apps for multi tasking. You have to go back to the desktop rather than having access to a dropdown menu. Third part apps solve that problem -- much like third party apps actually close apps on the PPC when you click the "X" to exit from them.

My START menu on my desktop literally fills the 800x600 screen that I choose to use (I like 800x600 even though my monitor is capable of more :D .) No matter how nice a menu structure you can design, the screen on the PDA has to be readable to the user. A robust pop-up menu structure on PDA would be nice until it forces choices outside the limits of the physical screen.

This being said, the Sony T-G50 I just picked-up has actually rocked my PDA world. The menu structure takes a bit of getting used to. Without the Jog Dial it wouldn't be possible. I think everyone should take a look at it when they are thinking of where the PPC should go.

[jizmo]

I've had my problems with Activesync as well, but nothing I couldn't live with. I actually started a thread like this last fall, being a little upset that the developement on PPC was standing still.

You know, most of us are gadget freaks, we need to have new things and new implementations to keep us keen and interested. I can understand why so many people would switch to Palm, althought PPC still beats it in many areas. It's because of the feeling you're on a train that is just standing still. 'No progress here, move on..'.

PPC came three years ago and was miles ahead of Palm devices. There's no excuse why it couldn't be done again today, if they had the will and efford to do so. PPCs aren't exactly a high priority issue to MS any more.

I won't be changing over to Palm. Not because I think they are worse than PPCs, but because I find myself leaving my PDA more often to home, instead of taking it with me. Now that laptops have become ultra thin and small, I guess I'll get interested in PDA-sized devices again when they are actual PCs. I'll still do my doodling and occasional gaming with PPC, but actual work, I find myself doing it much faster on the laptop.

/jizmo

[Rob Alexander]

And don't get me started on that thing about it not marking tasks as complete if you click it complete on your desktop.

Quick comment and solution on tasks synchronization... If the Sync Options for Task in Activesync is set to "Synchronize only incomplete tasks" (the default setting), the behavior Rob mentions is true. If a task is marked complete on the desktop, it will still be incomplete on the PocketPC because Activesync will ignore completed tasks on the desktop when syncing. I don't even understand my MS made this an option! To solve the problem, make sure to choose "Synchronize all tasks".

8O Wow, it works!!! Of course, now I'm ticked off that I've complained about this for years and that no one ever knew the answer before....

:werenotworthy: ...but to you, I'm eternally grateful!

Cheers, mate! :beer: I owe you one...

[hshortt]

I've owned a myriad of portable computing devices over the years. In the life-time of each device they served their purpose to me. I currently own an iPAQ 5455, she and I are getting along fine with the new rom, but prior to that we nearly broke up as I was starting to fancy Palm again.

Things I like about the devices I've used in the past 4 years are.
Psion - Excellent devices, great keyboards (Psion5MX).
Palm - Size (PalmVx), stability, battery life.
Compaq - Colour, instant familiarity with the OS, sound,

But that was four years ago. Now-a-days, Psion have metamorphed into Symbian, but no longer make hardware - shame.

Both Palm and Compaq/HP/Microsoft et al, offer devices that appeal to me at different times. Right now, the iPAQ suits my needs, and I'm happy with it. But I do find devices like the Tungsten and the C, desireable for different reasons.

This time next year.... this could all change.

Cheerio

[thatblokekev]

You know, most of us are gadget freaks, we need to have new things and new implementations to keep us keen and interested. I can understand why so many people would switch to Palm, althought PPC still beats it in many areas. It's because of the feeling you're on a train that is just standing still. 'No progress here, move on..'.


Personally I think when you clearly define what a PDA is, there aren't many instances in which PPC is technically ahead of Palm. Palm's do an awful lot with very little, tiny 33MHz processors for instance. I've never had a Palm with a memory problem for example. The way you have to close apps down on the PPC is frankly ludicrous.

Over the long term I'd have to question the viability of the PPC. Microsoft's interest in it has severely waned, in terms of sales Palm has clearly thumped Microsoft. The choice of Microsoft-based PPCs is too limited, they don't have a range spanning the cheap-and-cheerful Zire to the Tungsten ranger. Every PPC isn't much more than a variation on a theme. Palm has been able to attract the consumer and the enterprise alike. In trying to add so much nonsense to PPC, from GPS to biometrics, the PPC has started to lose sight of what it was originally trying to do.

It seems likely to me that the PDA is too great a cultural change at Microsoft for them to really produce good products. The make no hardware so they're absolutely dependent on the ability of OEMs to deliver, when the hardware platform is more of an unknown you're building in limitations to the software. Another change Microsoft seems to have struggled with is containing the bloat; you buy a PPC and its clear that they've spent more time developing Solitaire than they have Pocket Word. That kind of thinking has to change. Too many times to they think it's acceptable to have people manage the _device_ and not the _data_. Software has to be smarter than that; the end user should only have to manage the function and not the form it arrives in.

Added to this is the Tablet PC. Microsoft seems to know that license revenue from PDAs is always going to be fairly limited. But the Tablet PC being a cut down laptop allows for much greater profitablity. Personally I think Tablet PCs are a nerd toy that should never have escaped out the labs. They have all the management problems of PCs and I don't see them as being anymore portable or refined than laptops. Most Enterprise customers are going to need a lot of convincing to buy these as they seem a very expensive way to make notes and look at diaries. But given they have been so aggressively marketed (as device looking for a purpose it seems to me) this is where Microsoft might see the future of mobile computing. One thing is for sure, the Enterprise won't be buying both PDAs and Tablet PCs; one of them has to lose out as there's too much duplication of functionality.

[disconnected]

Actually, I think it's Palm that added GPS, and if either has lost sight of what it was originally trying to do, it's Palm -- not that that's necessarily a bad thing for them; they currently seem to be evolving faster than PPC.

Palm was supposed to be the simple, Zen thing, and Microsoft was supposed to be the high-tech, do-everything, thing. I guess I've gotten spoiled. I want each generation of PPC to be a giant leap forward.

[Gadget Guy]

First of all, let me say that it is nice to see such a discussion occur without it degrading into a flame-war.

I have been a longtime user of Palm, and have recently been thinking about switching to PPC (specifically the 2200 series), but have been concerned about the ability to sync the device with Lotus Notes. I have been able to accomplish this on my Palm (recent versions of Notes and EasySync have caused some problems, but it is managible).

From what I am reading here though, it appears that I may encounter a number of issues with syncing this device. Does anyone here have any experience syncing with Notes, and can they offer any recommendations? Or am I better to stay on the Palm side (for now)?

GG

[Jason Dunn]

FFrom what I am reading here though, it appears that I may encounter a number of issues with syncing this device. Does anyone here have any experience syncing with Notes, and can they offer any recommendations? Or am I better to stay on the Palm side (for now)?

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a thread specifically created to attract unhappy Pocket PC users, so what you're reading here should not be seen as typical of the whole Pocket PC experience. For that most part, I'm thrilled with the Pocket PC and what it can do. :D

[sci]

Wow!! I must say I am really suprised as many people have been thinking the same thing I have been. I just recently gave up using my HP 568 as a primary pda and switched to the Kyocera 7135, the palm flip phone. The 568 is now going to serve primarily as a navigation tool once I get my GPS cf card.

I had some reservations, most of which have been addressed in enough detail. I thought I would have a hard time switching especially because of the small screen on the 7135. I've been pleasantly suprised by how well I've adapted to it. Like people have mentioned before once you have a smart phone you'll never go back. I can now surf the web, check my work email ( does it automatically, I don't even have to take it off my hip), play mp3's, reliably and quickly check my schedule and data ( is it just me or does the PPC know when your in a hurry to read a contact or write a new appointment and of course then it CCRRAAWWLLSS!!!! ). I usually kept upwards of 25megs free for running apps, even so using Agenda Fusion (excellent PIM) was still slower than I'd like it to be. The palm is much quicker ( now using Agendus for PIM ) much smaller, gives better battery life ( even though it is used as a phone ), and all around I'm just extremely happy with it. Obviously it's a personal choice, I just got sick of babysitting the Jornada. I've had to get use to the palm OS again, the memory card use was new to me.

The only thing I can say I miss is multitasking, and maybe screen size when I'm trying to view a map, thus I'm keeping the 568.

Great thread, its just a little scarry seeing all you great PPCers thinking of jumping ship.

[Jonathan1]

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a thread specifically created to attract unhappy Pocket PC users, so what you're reading here should not be seen as typical of the whole Pocket PC experience. For that most part, I'm thrilled with the Pocket PC and what it can do. :D

Or the way I've always compared a forum is to a hospital. You don't walk into a hospital and expect to see everyone peachy keeny. On the same level most who are on PDA forums are usually looking for news, advice, or help on a problem.

I'm of the opinion that a forum doesn't give a good cross-section of how well a device functions. I don’t care who the maker of the device is there IS going to be a certain percentage of devices that have problems. The big problem is that these devices are so intertwined between the hardware and the software that a small problem with say your memory chip could affect the rest of the system and make it look like your device is a crashing pile of crap when in actuality it isn’t.

[Kevin Daly]

It's interesting that so many people have problems with ActiveSync, I'm one of those lucky ones who've never had any problems.
When it comes to the issues about frequent resets and so on, I think a lot of it is down to the OEMs and the integration of the various extra features.
My Jornada 568 *never* needs resetting, whereas the iPAQ 3870 that I have from work does tend to need to be reset at least once a day (especially if I've used Bluetooth...although to be fair, this machine has never had any patches or firmware upgrades applied, since that is supposed to be done by our network outsourcers and the bureaucrats I work for would get a very upset if I did it myself).
The HP iPAQ 5450 of course, apparently has these sort of issues with WiFi.
Sigh.
To the extent that there are responsiveness, ease of use and reliability problems that can be dealt with by improving the OS (and there certainly are) I think Microsoft are doing the right thing by making PPC 2003 a solid set of fixes and incremental improvements, rather than adding a lot of bells and whistles which, without first cleaning up the existing mess, would only provide new areas for instability and flakiness.
So I look forward to Pocket PC 2003 and look forward to being hopefully impressed by Magneto. 0X

[Jonathon Watkins]

I haven't posted for a while and was pleasantly surprised with how civil this thread went. No flames. Nice job everyone.

I too am QUITE surprised by this. If it were me starting this thread, all the heavy hitters (strangely absent) here would have pounded me as they have in the past for daring to speak as such.

That's a little unfair guys. The folks here aren't blind fanatic rabid MS fans! There is a little good natured Palm bashing occasionally, but most posts are pretty thoughtful and considerate on this board. I’ve been on plenty of other boards and I prefer the more mature tone here to some others I won’t mention.

Personally I use the PPC platform because it suits my needs better than the alternatives. I have owned and used Palm and Symbian devices and ‘*I* prefer to use a PPC now.

Although if MS does not innovate and offer us a 640x480 screen (preferably on a device with a built in keyboard) soon I may be strongly tempted elsewhere….. ActiveSync is indeed a giant pain and do hope that is an area that MS has FIXED with PPC 2003. We shall see….

[Jonathon Watkins]

And don't get me started on that thing about it not marking tasks as complete if you click it complete on your desktop.

Quick comment and solution on tasks synchronization... If the Sync Options for Task in Activesync is set to "Synchronize only incomplete tasks" (the default setting), the behavior Rob mentions is true. If a task is marked complete on the desktop, it will still be incomplete on the PocketPC because Activesync will ignore completed tasks on the desktop when syncing. I don't even understand my MS made this an option! To solve the problem, make sure to choose "Synchronize all tasks".

8O Wow, it works!!! Of course, now I'm ticked off that I've complained about this for years and that no one ever knew the answer before....

:werenotworthy: ...but to you, I'm eternally grateful!

Cheers, mate! :beer: I owe you one...

8O So THAT's how you do it! Thanks for that. :way to go: The hospital analogy obviously does work as my patient just got healed from a minor but irritating illness. :mrgreen:

[shawnc]

I haven't posted for a while and was pleasantly surprised with how civil this thread went. No flames. Nice job everyone.

I too am QUITE surprised by this. If it were me starting this thread, all the heavy hitters (strangely absent) here would have pounded me as they have in the past for daring to speak as such.

That's a little unfair guys. The folks here aren't blind fanatic rabid MS fans! There is a little good natured Palm bashing occasionally, but most posts are pretty thoughtful and considerate on this board. I’ve been on plenty of other boards and I prefer the more mature tone here to some others I won’t mention.

Relax...it was intended to be a compliment.

[bucho]

What version of ActiveSync are you running? ActiveSync 3.7 works just fine for me... I had load of problems with 3.6 and before, but none whatsoever since I put 3.7.

[bsoft]

For me, I'm leaving Pocket PC for the Danger Web Services Platform. In other words, the T-Mobile Sidekick. I still own a Pocket PC, and I use it for MP3s, a photo album, and games, but the Sidekick is my primary device. For me, it was a good Java API, a good thumb keyboard (sorry, none of the input options on the PPC can match up to the Sidekick's thumbkeyboard, with the exception of the stowaway), a good microbrowser, OTA sync, and the nice data plan too.

Three words: complete internet convergence.

It was $100, and it does it's job perfectly.

[thatblokekev]

I've been shopping for a new PDA to replace my Palm M515 for something with the new Palm OS -- along the way I considered a PPC hence my contribution to this topic. Yesterday I had a hands on demo of the Sony Clié PEG-NX70V (http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000087H97.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) and I think I had my first look at how Palm's seem to be involving ahead of PPC.

I originally considered PPC until I saw how analgous they were to PCs in general; every PPC looks the same, has the same features (more or less) and there seems to be little flair for design. The Sony NX-70V has a remarkable folding clamshell design and a keyboard that actually does the business. Okay, the camera is a bit gimmicky but you can always ignore it. I know it hasn't got wireless or bluetooth too, but again they're features I can live without. There's certainly plenty of Palm devices with both if that's what you need.

The point at which I roll my eyes and realise that Microsoft will never overtake Palm is in the replies I see here to many questions; all the compromises, fixes and workarounds people do to get their PPC to sync properly. Palm's have been no brainer's for years, they just work. Microsoft just aren't trying hard enough to aim for a standard high-enough to kill Palm, something as fundamental as syncing, the idea that kicked off the whole idea of PDAs in the first place, should just _work_.

[Palmguy]

Someone at the beginning of this thread mentioned that the Palm interface is about tha same as it was on the original devices. Well, is that a bad thing? It's nice to have a familiar system to interact with.

I picked-up a Dell Axim X5 Basic to use to provide tech support and I'm pleasantly surprised with the speed and functionality -- even at 300 MHz. But, I also have a Palm Tungsten T -- which I really like -- and just got a Sony T-G50 -- again, for support.

The Sony -- my first Sony PDA after many other brands -- is both a breath of fresh air and a learning experience. The interface is different BTW -- a little different. The thinness is great -- I can slip it in a standard portfolio pocket. Integrated hard cover -- again, great, except I have to open it when I'm Hotsyncing to see what's up. It's a little more complicated to figure out how to use that the typical Palm product, but no more so the the typical Pocket PC product.

The jury seems likt it's always out for me as new stuff comes out and tempts me. I'm just happy I have the choices and the ability to act on them on occasion.

You are referring to my comment, and yes, I think that it is a bad thing. I've never liked the built-in Palm launcher, I've always replaced it with Launcher III or something. That's been what, 7 years that it has remained virtually identical? It doesn't even have tabs yet!

I know for some people it works just fine, but your logic of it works fine, so why change it kind of precludes innovation doesn't it?

I do realize that Sony has a slightly different interface, which is a good thing IMO.

[mcsouth]

A couple of folks have brought up the file issue again, and I agree that I like the logical file system and easy access that PPC provides. Sure you can view the files on the Palm, but it can be a real struggle to figure out what the files actually are, and whether or not you could safely delete them. Over time, it was easy for a Palm to start loading up with useless files left behind after you deleted apps (gotta try out all those thousands of free apps!); mostly the databases of content from the apps.......

However.........why, when I have access to my file structure, don't I have more control over where I put things? I have a 512MB CF card in my Jornada, and the "My Documents" folder is HUGE beyond belief, simply because if I don't put my files in there (no sub-folders, please), most of the PPC's built-in apps can't find them! I just checked, and I have 118 files in there - try finding one quickly in that mess! Okay, maybe I should find a media player that likes to look in other directories, but then I'm using RAM to duplicate something already in ROM that should behave better!

It seems that there is a lot of this sort of thing - hey, let's give the user access to a true file structure!!! - but then the usefulness of such an approach is ignored when WMP or Reader is coded.

That being said, I simply love how the CF card works on my Jornada compared to my previous SD card in my M505. At this point, I don't even know which apps are installed to the card or to internal RAM - they all just open and run seamlessly from the icons on my Today screen. Now my M505......navigate to the "Card" menu, and then select the icon - wait forever for app to load......I don't for a minute miss the pathetic way that Palm integrated the SD card in the prior OS4 - hopefully they have fixed that in OS5......

[thatblokekev]

A couple of folks have brought up the file issue again, and I agree that I like the logical file system and easy access that PPC provides. Sure you can view the files on the Palm, but it can be a real struggle to figure out what the files actually are, and whether or not you could safely delete them.

But isn't the question _why_ do you need to know where they are? For a start Microsoft's implementation of a file system has never been very logical and it certainly has never been very effective or efficient. It's ironic that in your second statement you list why this kind of file structure is no good; you're trying to manage data at it's lowest level, not the contents of the files but how those objects are accumulated on disk. Software can manage files much better than humans can, we try to recreate everything based on the physical world hence nonsense like "files" and "directories" in the first place.

I would argue that Palm's design to have apps on SD cards in their own memory is more logical; why should assume that card will always be in the system? What point is there in having "shortcuts" to objects that aren't available? Microsoft doesn't have an object orientated file system so the PPC won't be smart enough to realise if that data is not available. It also seems to me that SD is a much more sophisiticated technology than clunky CF cards which are power hungry, slow and physically large

The thing is a Palm full of bloat is easily cured: a hard reset followed by housekeeping in the Palm Desktop will restore your Palm to the way you want it. Frankly I've never had to do this in the three years I've used a Palm, anyone constantly adding and removing and deleting applications is just asking for trouble. Just ask any Windows desktop user ;-)

[Palmguy]

A couple of folks have brought up the file issue again, and I agree that I like the logical file system and easy access that PPC provides. Sure you can view the files on the Palm, but it can be a real struggle to figure out what the files actually are, and whether or not you could safely delete them.

But isn't the question _why_ do you need to know where they are? For a start Microsoft's implementation of a file system has never been very logical and it certainly has never been very effective or efficient. It's ironic that in your second statement you list why this kind of file structure is no good; you're trying to manage data at it's lowest level, not the contents of the files but how those objects are accumulated on disk. Software can manage files much better than humans can, we try to recreate everything based on the physical world hence nonsense like "files" and "directories" in the first place.

I would argue that Palm's design to have apps on SD cards in their own memory is more logical; why should assume that card will always be in the system? What point is there in having "shortcuts" to objects that aren't available? Microsoft doesn't have an object orientated file system so the PPC won't be smart enough to realise if that data is not available. It also seems to me that SD is a much more sophisiticated technology than clunky CF cards which are power hungry, slow and physically large

The thing is a Palm full of bloat is easily cured: a hard reset followed by housekeeping in the Palm Desktop will restore your Palm to the way you want it. Frankly I've never had to do this in the three years I've used a Palm, anyone constantly adding and removing and deleting applications is just asking for trouble. Just ask any Windows desktop user ;-)


Why do you need to know where they are? You're kidding, right? He gave one very good reason why you need to, when you try to delete something, it is generally good policy to remove the whole program and everything associated with it.

You call a hard reset an easy cure? Good lord!

As far as software organizing things better than humans, until my PocketPC can read my mind and understand how I like things set up, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Some people like having things organized in their own unique (and even quirky) way that the software wouldn't know.

As far as Palm's system being more logical, the choice should be yours. You should be able to decide where to install anything. That is the point.

[thatblokekev]

Why do you need to know where they are? You're kidding, right? He gave one very good reason why you need to, when you try to delete something, it is generally good policy to remove the whole program and everything associated with it.

Coming from a DBA background I'd have to say you don't understand where I'm coming from. Imagine I've got 500 users on my Oracle database. They can all find their data easily, the can search/manipulate/delete do whatever they want yet have no clue as to what the underlying file structure looks like. Why should they? The file system is an irrelevence something even MS admit to in the design of Blackcomb. Even Active Directory has no relation to the underlying file system yet it does its job extremely well. When you've only got two data types, files and directories, you're unbelievably limited in terms of what you can do. You see when you have a database or object orientated file system your gambit of "...to remove the whole program and everything associated with it" just doesn't exist. There's a relationship to these objects, something that Palm OS does.

You call a hard reset an easy cure? Good lord!

Again you're coming from the MS world where there is no intelligence to system restores. With a Palm when it syncs it checks what should or shouldn't be there and restores files accordingly. It is seemless to the user appearing no more than a HotSync that takes a bit longer than usual. With ActiveSync you're wrestling with an obviously broken piece of software. You never, ever hear so many people in the Palm world complaining about HotSync problems. ActiveSync is still struggling with the idea of authorative and non-authorative restores. Once any PDA looses power for a length of time it will loose data, Palm understood this when designing HotSync.

As far as software organizing things better than humans, until my PocketPC can read my mind and understand how I like things set up, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Some people like having things organized in their own unique (and even quirky) way that the software wouldn't know.

Really? Your PPC has got a neural network?! PPC organises things around the same concept MS has been hawking for years, a mire of data and binary programs all jumbled up together.

As far as Palm's system being more logical, the choice should be yours. You should be able to decide where to install anything. That is the point.

Why do you need to decide where to install software other than which media it's installed on? Once you have to expose the internals of the file system to the user you need to write an interface to it which for a device as tiny as a PPC seems wholly pointless. I've seen the results of leaving it up to users to decide these things on PCs and it isn't pretty. The more choice people have the more chance you have of them compromising the stability of the system --- something the designers of Unix understood more than 30 years ago. When the PDA evolves beyond being a nerd toy, when its deployed in the enterprise, users just don't need that level of interaction. They shouldn't need to know or care where things go or why. When you start arguing over the location of what's stored where, you're really just talking about the symbolic representation of storage which can have nothing to do with its real location. Sheesh, I thought we'd grown up to get past our love affair with files and directories...

[Unreal32]

Interesting that I should see this thread today... after giving PPC the benefit of the doubt for the last 2 years, I made the switch last week to go to the new Tungsten C. With my CompUSA return policy in effect, I was able to switch from my iPaq 3955 to the Tungsten C without it costing me anything out of pocket except for car charger and USB charging cable.

The single biggest reason why I dropped the PPC platform -- despite the many things I loved about it -- was that I had two hard-resets within a week of each other and lost much of my data when I was traveling to a remote area... *without* my laptop, since I had come to rely on my PPC so much. It was just one too many hard resets. I woke up one morning, went to flip on my iPaq, and found I had no data left and the battery had drained completely. It made me very upset, and being in a remote area the closest thing they had to a CompUSA or other computer store was a little teeny OfficeMax. Well, as luck would have it, I went into the store just to browse a bit, and happened upon their Palm display area. They had a live Tungsten C up and running, along with a Zire 71. I played with the keyboard for over an hour, and finally made the first steps in a decision to drop the PPC platform entirely and move to Palm.

(By the way, I used an HP95lx as my first PDA, and then moved to the US Robotics Palm Pilot, and then upgraded it as I went, all the way to the m505. Then I made the jump to the iPaq series, and now I am back to Palm.)

All my concerns about the Palm Tungsten C were immediately defused: The thumbboard, for those who like such things, works almost identically to the RIM Blackberry... in other words, it has wonderful keyboard feedback, natural and intuitive positioning of the keys, and a "sticky" key feature whereby you can press Fn or Shift, and the next keystroke is affected without holding down the Fn or Shift buttons... essential IMHO for a thumbboard. And surprising how few companies realize this. (Palm obviously did, as did RIM, and the people who made the Snap 'n' Type. Microsoft, Targus, and the others did not.) Plus, having the thumbboard built in and always with you is a HUGE plus. I hated carrying my external keyboard for my iPaq or the snap on thumbboards. Even the HP 568's thumbboard sucks by comparison (I had that too).

Anyway, after a day or two initial pangs of buyer's remorse (God, what was I doing? Giving up my beloved PPC, just when a lot of reps in my company were moving to the Axim or iPaq!) I have discovered myself falling in love with this little powerhouse. It connects fast to my WiFi, and turns itself off on WiFi to conserve power when I don't need it. I was concerned about multitasking (or lack thereof) but should not have been... the speed of the unit more than adequately compensates. The amount of *free* software available is still lots more than the PPC platform, regardless of what you may hear. The sync is seamless and easy, and I can charge my unit without manually having to disable ActiveSync. It holds a charge longer, and syncs with my Outlook and Exchange just fine. Even without Hackmaster, I can tweak my system just how I want it too. And it really is simpler to use. I am what I would consider an above-average user when it comes to technology, but I truly do find the Palm easier to master for the most part, and nearly as flexible in settings and the like.

Reasons I switched:
1. Stability and ease of installing/reinstalling software
2. Consistency of data when syncing
3. Integrated thumbboard - assuming it worked as I hoped
4. Battery life
5. Overall reliability... lets me get my work done without constantly tweaking, fixing, or being frustrated by ActiveSync, etc.

Reasons I am staying:
1. Thumbboard even better than anticipated
2. WiFi is fast, easy, and better than expected
3. Charging is fast
4. I can get all my Avantgo (8 megs) in about 5 minutes, as opposed to 15-30 with ActiveSync and PPC.
5. DOC and XLS files look like they should look
6. I can review PPT's on the Palm without incurring extra cost
7. My alarms really go off when expected. Really!

So... while I hate to go, and I will miss the interaction here and the terrific discussions (I don't feel Palm has a site that is as good as this one), I'm switching camps. Going to the dark side. Jumping the fence. Flip-flopping. Whatever you want to call it. My reasons aren't your reasons, if you go or if you stay... but for me, it's a decision I felt was right. After all, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what platform you use, if it helps you with life, work, organization, and you can have some fun while you're at it... right?

[Janak Parekh]

Coming from a DBA background I'd have to say you don't understand where I'm coming from. Imagine I've got 500 users on my Oracle database. They can all find their data easily, the can search/manipulate/delete do whatever they want yet have no clue as to what the underlying file structure looks like. Why should they? The file system is an irrelevence something even MS admit to in the design of Blackcomb.
While that might be true for a full-powered SQL database, it is not for Palm databases. I've programmed the PalmOS database API, and it's extremely clumsy -- it's far closer to a flat-file system than a real database.

Again you're coming from the MS world where there is no intelligence to system restores. With a Palm when it syncs it checks what should or shouldn't be there and restores files accordingly.
I disagree -- why is BackupBuddy so popular on the PalmOS? HotSync is definitely better than ActiveSync in terms of reliability, no doubt about that; but it's far from perfect.

Why do you need to decide where to install software other than which media it's installed on?
What if you want multiple versions of a program, for instance? I guess your argument is "you shouldn't have to on a PDA". That, in a nutshell, sums up our difference of opinion. I perceive a good PDA as a general handheld computation device; you want an organizer. Whatever works best for you. :)

Sheesh, I thought we'd grown up to get past our love affair with files and directories...
Try, as someone else said, manipulating email attachments on the PalmOS, between different applications. It's not fun. Filesystems are far from ideal, but they allow a necessary form of flexibility that, as of this moment, isn't offered by abstraction layers like the PalmOS database mechanisms.

--janak

[CAJarrow]

Strongly considering making the jump back to Palm after many years on PPC. Currently, using a Jornada 568. Been a great device, but I too am questioning if it GETS the job done...or is just fun to play with.

As I was getting ready to type this msg, I activesync just popped up with 26 unresolved tasks!?! I had to go through all of them and decide PC or PPC.

The Tungsten C is looking mighty attractive. If it had bluetooth as well as wi-fi, I would be in now.

I was playing with a Tungsten T the other day and was blown away with how well it did the Bluetooth thing...right out of the box.

The ONE MAJOR thing that would keep me from jumping is a PPC with built-in keyboard.

Anyone know of ANY PPC, (besides the one XDA with phone, camera, etc.) that will have an integrated keyboard???

Don't suppose I could get a great surprise next week when the new devices are announced? :?:

Thanks,

CAJ

:mrgreen:

[Steveb123]

i recently converted to ppc and am quite happy with it. i was an original palm user and thought that that platform could get the job done. the problem was just that. the palm os just got the job done for me. i wanted more. i wanted more memory, faster processor, wifi, better games, better apps, terminal services, and such. and this is what i got on my ppc and all is good. the problem is just that something is there with this ppc os. i just don't feel as comfortable on it as i do with palm. while i can manage, i think there something more.

[Palmguy]

Why do you need to know where they are? You're kidding, right? He gave one very good reason why you need to, when you try to delete something, it is generally good policy to remove the whole program and everything associated with it.

Coming from a DBA background I'd have to say you don't understand where I'm coming from. Imagine I've got 500 users on my Oracle database. They can all find their data easily, the can search/manipulate/delete do whatever they want yet have no clue as to what the underlying file structure looks like. Why should they? The file system is an irrelevence something even MS admit to in the design of Blackcomb. Even Active Directory has no relation to the underlying file system yet it does its job extremely well. When you've only got two data types, files and directories, you're unbelievably limited in terms of what you can do. You see when you have a database or object orientated file system your gambit of "...to remove the whole program and everything associated with it" just doesn't exist. There's a relationship to these objects, something that Palm OS does.

You call a hard reset an easy cure? Good lord!

Again you're coming from the MS world where there is no intelligence to system restores. With a Palm when it syncs it checks what should or shouldn't be there and restores files accordingly. It is seemless to the user appearing no more than a HotSync that takes a bit longer than usual. With ActiveSync you're wrestling with an obviously broken piece of software. You never, ever hear so many people in the Palm world complaining about HotSync problems. ActiveSync is still struggling with the idea of authorative and non-authorative restores. Once any PDA looses power for a length of time it will loose data, Palm understood this when designing HotSync.

As far as software organizing things better than humans, until my PocketPC can read my mind and understand how I like things set up, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Some people like having things organized in their own unique (and even quirky) way that the software wouldn't know.

Really? Your PPC has got a neural network?! PPC organises things around the same concept MS has been hawking for years, a mire of data and binary programs all jumbled up together.

As far as Palm's system being more logical, the choice should be yours. You should be able to decide where to install anything. That is the point.

Why do you need to decide where to install software other than which media it's installed on? Once you have to expose the internals of the file system to the user you need to write an interface to it which for a device as tiny as a PPC seems wholly pointless. I've seen the results of leaving it up to users to decide these things on PCs and it isn't pretty. The more choice people have the more chance you have of them compromising the stability of the system --- something the designers of Unix understood more than 30 years ago. When the PDA evolves beyond being a nerd toy, when its deployed in the enterprise, users just don't need that level of interaction. They shouldn't need to know or care where things go or why. When you start arguing over the location of what's stored where, you're really just talking about the symbolic representation of storage which can have nothing to do with its real location. Sheesh, I thought we'd grown up to get past our love affair with files and directories...

Maybe I don't understand where you are coming from, but let me answer a few points.

First, I am not coming from a MS background as you said, assuming you mean specifically PPC, as that is what we are talking about. I've been a PPC user for 2 years, and a Palm user for 4 before that. If you are talking about desktop software then you are correct.

I've been through my fair shares of hard resets on Palms, and let me say that the one time that I had to do a reset on my iPAQ, just clicking the restore button in iPAQ Backup was much easier. A hard reset is never fun. There are much easier ways than ActiveSync though.

Did I say that my iPAQ had a neural network? :roll:

I was specifically addressing actual media of storage, as I believe Palm can be a little difficult in this field. Maybe not, but I thought that it was. Although now that I think about it, I am also talking about location within the file structure. I am strictly comparing Palm and PocketPC here, you need to understand that. I much prefer doing things on PocketPC than on Palm, that's what it really boils down to. A personal preference. As such, neither of us will convince the other of our point. So we might as well both end this :mrgreen:

[TopDog]

Buy yourself a new acessorie, and you get that lovin' feelin' back again :-)

Sat in a meeting with my Axim and my brand new Pocketop keyboard just now punching down notes on it, and it was awesome! I know you can do this on a palm too, just wanted to say it...

Actually I haven't had any problems with my PPC lately, works like a charm, syncronizing both home and at work, doing my little Agenda Fusion thing. Sure, I get some unresolved items once in a while that I have to choose, but thats mainly because I've not closed the document or been fidling with it at two places on the same time...

I use my PPC 50% for fun and 50% for business, and it does the job for me in both cases!

[papasmurf]

I'm not at the point of switching back to Palm yet, but man do I hate this useless Activesync software. :bad-words:

I can't believe how much time and effort is wasted trying to make this whole process work the way it should. This is the one part of the whole PPC experience that would make me switch back.
I'm not quite ready to switch back yet, but I agree with your comments about active sync. I have had so much trouble syncing avantgo that I just gave up and only download avantgo when I carry my sony. I really like the axim but palm is just so dang simple. I am not new to either platform. I have had a palm lllxe, a palmvx, a sony t615c, a maestro, a toshiba e335, and I now own an axim and a sony sj30

[Unreal32]

You call a hard reset an easy cure? Good lord!

Fact is, I did a hard-reset on my Palm just yesterday, when trying to install and run a very old legacy palm program... the system froze, so I did a reset, followed by a hard reset just to see what it would do. I figured I was early enough into this that I could afford an "elective" hard reset to try it out.

When it reset and I re-synched, everything came back just the way I'd intended to.... my email synched back up properly, my avantgo settings (all 8 megs of them) were still there, and even my web favorites for the WiFi browser came back intact. In fact, I did not have to reinstall ANY applications or data by hand after my hard reset and a subsequent Synch. Which is SO far afield from PPC's hard resets. So yes, it's an EASY cure.

[Prevost]

I've been frustrated beyond description by the "round-tripping" formatting loss of my word documents. Without being able to maintain formatting in my school papers, my PPC has SIGNIFICANTLY less value to me. Add to that, two days ago a co-worker showed me a Zire 91/71/something like that. It was AMAZINGLY quick and had an integrated camera and MP3 player. Form factor was fantastic.

Without the ability to sync my word documents with formatting, I pretty much use my axim for mp3 and avantgo. I can get that with a faster, lighter, better form factor, Palm.


I got this from another forum:

http://www.softmaker.de/tmp_en.htm

It is a Word Processor that is supposed to do all that Pocket Word can't and even what WinWord does in the desktop.
Looks very impressive. As I am on Palm, I cant say I've tested it but you can!

[shawnc]

I got this from another forum:

http://www.softmaker.de/tmp_en.htm

It is a Word Processor that is supposed to do all that Pocket Word can't and even what WinWord does in the desktop.
Looks very impressive. As I am on Palm, I cant say I've tested it but you can!

Prevost - thanx for the link. I've heard of Textmaker and strongly considered purchasing it. At the end of the day it was (1) too pricey for my blood, and (2) I didn't feel right paying for functionality that I am CONVINCED should already be included in my base package.

Thanx again for the link.

[LaserProUSA]

I picked up this gem to enable swapping out amongst all the cards on the market particularly allowing access to memory sticks on my Clie and iPAQ. Unfortunately it does not support Memory Stick Pro. Oh well at least my desktop VAIO has native MSPro support and this 4in CF adapter can handle all the other (plus regular MS sumultaneously with the built in MS reader)