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netBEUI
05-04-2003, 09:09 AM
I searched the forums but couldn't find a clear answer. From what I gather there is no noticeable speed improvement comparing a 400mhz X-Scale machine to a 206mhz Strong Arm machine unless you run software that has been optimized for X-Scale processors. Is this true?

If this is true, would this translate to an overall performance boost if the device is running the new Microsoft Pocket PC 2002 Premium Edition which includes the .NET Compact Framework? The new ViewSonic V37 is going to be bundled with this OS and I'm wondering if the new OS will take advantage of the processor.

Finally my last question; if all the above is true would it be correct to say that running an "old" application (ie - anything *not* specifically written to take advantage of X-Scale) on the above device would be identicle to running the app on a 206mhz Strong Arm machine? In other words, since the old app wasn't written for X-Scale it doesn't matter that the OS it's running on was....

Any advice or thoughts are appreciated.

Sslixtis
05-04-2003, 11:03 AM
First off it is true that there in no speed improvement unless the software is optimized for Xscale. In fact some software actually performs better on the 206Mhz StrongArm (ARM V4) vs. the 400Mhz Xscale (ARM V5).

And the Pocket PC 2002 Premium Edition is NOT optimized for Xscale. And unless MS optimizes Pocket PC 2003 for ARM V5, which I seriously doubt, the only real benefit you'll see with the V37 is that the Xscale will be the newer PXA255 with a 200Mhz bus allowing somewhat faster speeds than the Older Xscale PXA250 CPUs with a 100Mhz bus.

As for your last question I would assume that it would perform slower than an optimized application even if the OS was optimized the same as standard PC software. But unless MS surpirses alot of people and includes ARM V5 optimization in the Pocket PC 2003 OS, who knows.

jaja_75
05-04-2003, 11:13 AM
How about the 32 bit memory bus with PXA255 ? :roll:

Ed Hansberry
05-04-2003, 02:17 PM
That is largely true for the first generation of Pocket PCs with the X-Scale. Intel has redone the X-Scale chip though and included a faster bus which was a HUGE bottleneck on the first X-Scales. Devices with those chips are just now coming to market. I think the Axim now has it. The original X-Scales came with a 100MHz bus. The new ones have a 200MHz bus.

That said, the real benefits don't come until the software itself is X-Scale optimized, regardless of whether or not the OS is.

Pony99CA
05-04-2003, 03:22 PM
That is largely true for the first generation of Pocket PCs with the X-Scale. Intel has redone the X-Scale chip though and included a faster bus which was a HUGE bottleneck on the first X-Scales. Devices with those chips are just now coming to market. I think the Axim now has it. The original X-Scales came with a 100MHz bus. The new ones have a 200MHz bus.

That said, the real benefits don't come until the software itself is X-Scale optimized, regardless of whether or not the OS is.
That depends on whether the OS is optimized for XScale and how much time the program spends making OS calls vs. running its own code. If the OS is optimized for XScale and a program spends most of its time using OS services, then I'd expect to see a performance boost. Conversely, if the OS isn't optimized, or if the program spends most of its time running its own code, then you probably won't see any improvement.

Similarly, if the OS isn't optimized and the program spends most of its time using OS services, optimizing the program for XScale will be mostly a waste of time.

In other words, it depends. :lol:

Steve

netBEUI
05-04-2003, 06:11 PM
And the Pocket PC 2002 Premium Edition is NOT optimized for Xscale.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Intel has redone the X-Scale chip though and included a faster bus which was a HUGE bottleneck on the first X-Scales. Devices with those chips are just now coming to market.

Does anyone know if the V37 comes with the 200mhz bus?

Finally, can someone explain what they mean when they say the device comes with "Microsoft Pocket PC 2002 Premium Edition which includes the .NET Compact Framework"? Specifically, the ".NET Compact Framework" part. Is that a good thing?

And if I decide later that I don't like this "Microsoft Pocket PC 2002 Premium Edition which includes the .NET Compact Framework" is it possible to remove it and somehow install plain old PPC 2002?

Thanks again

Ed Hansberry
05-04-2003, 08:24 PM
That depends on whether the OS is optimized for XScale and how much time the program spends making OS calls vs. running its own code. If the OS is optimized for XScale and a program spends most of its time using OS services, then I'd expect to see a performance boost. Conversely, if the OS isn't optimized, or if the program spends most of its time running its own code, then you probably won't see any improvement.
That is kind of a given. But given most apps spend most of their time doing their own thing instead of just repackaging a bunch of OS calls, it is really more dependant on the app and not the OS.

Ed Hansberry
05-04-2003, 08:28 PM
Does anyone know if the V37 comes with the 200mhz bus?
I haven't really seen specs on it or know much about it other than it exists.

Finally, can someone explain what they mean when they say the device comes with "Microsoft Pocket PC 2002 Premium Edition which includes the .NET Compact Framework"? Specifically, the ".NET Compact Framework" part. Is that a good thing?
No. It is just a thing, not good or bad. the .NET CF is a set of APIs for applications to use. Sort of like a Java Virtual Machine but using C++ and C#. If you have apps that need it, then you will need to install it. If you don't, the don't worry about it. Certainly don't install it for grins. The only thing it will do for you is take up RAM. In the future, I hope it is built into the ROM so RAM isn't taken up.

FWIW, you can get the .NET CF now from MS's site. You can also get the full .NET framework for your Windows XP and Win2K box - all 20+MB of it. 8O

Pony99CA
05-04-2003, 11:41 PM
Finally, can someone explain what they mean when they say the device comes with "Microsoft Pocket PC 2002 Premium Edition which includes the .NET Compact Framework"? Specifically, the ".NET Compact Framework" part. Is that a good thing?
No. It is just a thing, not good or bad. the .NET CF is a set of APIs for applications to use. Sort of like a Java Virtual Machine but using C++ and C#. If you have apps that need it, then you will need to install it. If you don't, the don't worry about it. Certainly don't install it for grins. The only thing it will do for you is take up RAM. In the future, I hope it is built into the ROM so RAM isn't taken up.
I thought it was a given that Pocket PC 2003 would have the .NET Compact Framework included. If it's built on Windows CE .NET, it would pretty much have to.

Steve

Ed Hansberry
05-05-2003, 01:33 AM
I thought it was a given that Pocket PC 2003 would have the .NET Compact Framework included. If it's built on Windows CE .NET, it would pretty much have to.
Why? CE.NET 4.0 didn't have any .NET in it. :) That didn't come until 4.1.

The .NET framework has little to do with the OS itself, and if devices like the 1910 that have 16MB ROMs are going to be upgradable to the next OS, things like the .NET framework will have to be in RAM. I don't know how that would impact other devices.

Pony99CA
05-05-2003, 05:04 PM
The .NET framework has little to do with the OS itself, and if devices like the 1910 that have 16MB ROMs are going to be upgradable to the next OS, things like the .NET framework will have to be in RAM. I don't know how that would impact other devices.
That's a good point. Microsoft could do Professional and Premium versions of Pocket PC 2003, like they did for Pocket PC 2002.

And, while the .NET framework isn't really an OS item, it still makes sense to include it (if possible) so that developers have a common base to build on. That's why Windows CE now includes the MFC library (Windows CE 2.0 didn't, if I recall correctly).

Steve

netBEUI
05-05-2003, 05:16 PM
Does anyone know if an X-Scale SDK is available? If possible, I'd like to compile my app to take advantage.