Pocket PC or Palm... Come on and help me!!

[JohnnyFlash]

Alright, I've got a Cassiopeia EM-500 and I think it's time to upgrade, since I'm a complete tech-head and love some of the new features.

I never thought I would look at Palms, but I am. I'm also looking at Pocket PCs though. Here's my rundown:

-Multimedia is important:
--> I want decent video playback, good enough to watch a complete movie and not be discouraged from the horrible picture quality or framerate. For practicality, the video has to be less than 256MB so it would be good if the unit can push a 2MB/min video.
--> Good quality audio out of the headphone jack. Speaker isn't so important, but this will most likely be replacing my minidisc player, so audio quality is very important as well. Headphone remote would be a big plus, as well as being able to turn the screen off.

-Form Factor:
--> I really don't want it to be much bigger than my EM-500. I've gotten used to its size, but it's also 3 years old. However, if the unit comes with it's own sort of protection meaning that I won't necessarily need an extra case, the size can be comparable to the EM-500.
--> I don't care how small the unit is, if it's extremely lacking in features. Meaning, more features it has, the more I'm willing for it to be big.
--> If it's just downright ugly in my opinion, it would need to be a great price and full of features to make up for that.

-Wireless:
--> Bluetooth: This would be great if built in, since in Canada there aren't many public places wi-fi is available, not to mention BT is cheaper keep in mind I'm a student.
--> Wi-fi built in is a great addition however, because all I would need to buy is a wireless adapter for my computer. If wi-fi is not built-in, that's not very appealing to me beacuse of the extra $$ needed.
--> If no built in options are available, that's a big disadvantage to me.
==> I would love to be able to sync and surf wirelessly. That's a big plus in my mind, BT is ideal as long as range is decent. However, I will not turn away from wi-fi. Balance of wireless and price is key!

-Software:
--> The more software available, the better. The cheaper (free) the better. Games are a great plus, but since most cost money it's not a huge factor. Otherwise, PPCs would win hands down. But as much as I love games, I won't be playing them very often.

-Internet:
--> Must have a decent web browser, (built in or extra) don't care what it does or how it does it as long as it can provide a good web browsing experience wirelessly. (java/frames/secure/just like desktop browser)

Extra features:
--> The sonys have built in keyboards, which I find appealing for large amounts of text input. Also remote control abilities and hi res screen, nice form factor. However the multimedia is lacking compared to PPCs ability to play nearly any video format available. PPC screens are larger, but lower res. TG50 has built in screen cover, NX60 has very very nice screen, keyboard, headphone remote but no wireless built-in and is big. Both Sony models have great audio playback. Some PPCs don't have as good audio quality. (I've heard the e740 audio is lacking)

I'm totally lost in which way to go. I'm at a stalemate and can't seem to move far in either direction. Help would be really appreciated!

Thanks,

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PS: Don't assume that with what I've said I've already made up my mind (ie: sony) because the Sonys are just as lacking in certain features that are important to me as the PPCs, so I'm honestly not sure which way to go.

PPS: Interested in buying my EM-500? CLICK HERE (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11244)

[Cracknell]

-iPAQ h2200 (coming out June/july, expected $399 for basic model, there is also version with BT)
-Toshiba E750 (no built in BT, but WiFi & dual slots, best choice right now ~$550)

The only unit with built in WiFi+BT is the h5450, otherwise the other models come with optional CF/SD card via peripheral slots.

otherwise, a discounted $740 is still the best choice given the requirement.

[Pony99CA]

PPS: Interested in buying my EM-500? CLICK HERE (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11245)
That link takes you to another thread on Pocket PC Thoughts with no description of the device. Instead, in that post, you give a link to another thread (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=101870#101870) on Pocket PC Thoughts. From there, to see a picture, you have to click on yet another link! :|

I guess you don't want to make it easy for people to buy your Casio. :-D

You should have just linked directly to the thread with the description, and in that posting used the IMG tags to include a picture. My reply there tells you how to do that.

Steve

[JohnnyFlash]

I changed the link.

I appreciate your help. It's late, and I just decided to do all this on a whim.

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[Don't Panic!]

Buy a PALM, My stocks are way, way down. Help a guy out won't you? :worried:

Don't Panic!
Bobby

[ucfgrad93]

From the Palm camp I'd recommend the Sony TG50 or the NX series.

From the PPC camp I'd recommend the Toshiba e750, Compaq 5450 or 3970.

[dh]

I looked seriously at the Sony NX60 before buying deciding to go with PPC. I'd been a Palm user since 3Com days, so I really expected to stay with POS.

Anyway, the reasons I didn't go with Sony (despite some very nice features) were:

Like you, I wanted to use my PDA for movies and music. Sony's memory stick (at the time) was limited to 128MB. Can't bit many full length movies on one of those. With PPC you can get a 1GB CF card for around $200.00.

The Sony keyboard is a good idea but too small for serious use.

I use my device for business everyday. I tried out a friends Ipaq with Pocket Informant and @mail and was really impressed. Between them these programs do more than Outlook on my desktop.

Palm OS5 is really just a fill-in until OS6 is finished. Sony have not got a good record in providing upgrades.

To use a device for serious work as well as entertainment, a lot of storage is needed. I now have a 256MB SD card for work stuff and use my 1GB CF card for music, video and books.

The claim that POS has much more software available is nonsense. Sure there are lots of freebies, many of which are really not of interest and not very good. PPC has fantastic software available, both free and commercial.

Anyway, I bought a Dell Axim and a 802.11b CF card. Couldn't be happier.

(By the way, if you do decide to go Sony, it seems they have dropped the price of the NX70 to be the same as the NX60. Looks like you get the camera for free).

[spursdude]

Ok, so if you want lots of multimedia, I really suggest going with a Pocket PC. Like you mentioned, it will play nearly any video file you throw at it - .avi, .mpeg, .wmv, even encoded in DivX. There are also a lot of good freeware MP3 players out for the Pocket PC, and most PPCs provide good sound quality.

Also, at the moment, the storage limit for Sony handhelds is at 128MB. I know MS Pro is planned, but at this point you can only have 128MB, which I can can assure you, is inadequate. :D

For form factor, any PPC will suit you. I'm pretty sure that nearly all PPCs out there are around the same size or smaller than your EM500. However, the Sony NZ or NX series may be too big for you... you need to head to a store and see how it feels. The TG seems like it has a great design, though.

For wireless, a PPC will probably suit you best. The Toshiba e750 has built-in wireless. The iPaq 5450 has built in BT and wifi. The Sonys have bluetooth, but you'll have to pay around $100 to get wifi. You will pay around $50-75 for a CF WiFi card for the Pocket PC. If you want to sync and surf wirelessly, Istrongly suggest WiFi.

I love freeware just like you, and the PPC provides plenty. Palm may have more software in terms of cold number, but PPC can beat most Palm apps in terms of quality.

But if you love the extra Sony features over the PPC advantages, get those if you'll be happier. But it sounds like PPC suits your needs well.

Oh - my PPC suggestions. Dell Axim - very inexpensive at around $300 or $350, slightly larger, but has CF and SD slots and a good transflective screen. Toshiba e750 - great form factor, built-in wireless, transflective screen, and CF and SD slots. (this one sounds like your best bet). Or the iPaq 5450 - very high price at around $650 or more, with only SD built in, but built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, and even a finger-print scanner.

[JohnnyFlash]

The sony advantages are definately appealing, like the nice 320 x 480 screen, remote control features, and remote control for the headphones. With a built in keyboard I could chat on MSN/ICQ wirelessly, but with handwritting I would get cramped.

BUT!!! Everything you say about the PPCs and multimedia is totally true.

HOWEVER!!! With the new PXA255 replacing the current PXA250 procs in current PDA (I'm assuming Sony included) I'm sure the video playback would be no problem on either the Sony or PPC - albeit it'll be a lot more work to get the Sony to work.

The NX series will have CF drivers soon to use the CD slot for storage, meaning the problem with MS storage won't be a problem - but I've got a feeling it will be replaced soon.

So, I'm gonna wait and see what the Palm and PPC fronts have to offer over the next two months (h2200, and other new models) and make my decision based on those models.

I have pretty much decided that wi-fi is the way for me to go too. I don't have a BT cellphone and even if I were to get one, the data plans are such a massive rip off there's no way I'm paying that much!

I've really decided that the current generation of PDAs are just not for me right now - the next generation will probably have better wireless implementation for less, and use the better PXA255.

I'm going to have to hold the debate off for a while, because I can smell the new PDAs coming...

Thanks,

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[spursdude]

HOWEVER!!! With the new PXA255 replacing the current PXA250 procs in current PDA (I'm assuming Sony included) I'm sure the video playback would be no problem on either the Sony or PPC - albeit it'll be a lot more work to get the Sony to work.
Well, I'm fairly confident that the PXA255 is only going into PPCs. Basically PXA255 is Intel's chip. Palm OS devices don't use Intel chips - they have the same ARM architecture, but not necessarily the same brand. Even so, video playback on the PPC is just fine as it is. :)

The NX series will have CF drivers soon to use the CD slot for storage, meaning the problem with MS storage won't be a problem - but I've got a feeling it will be replaced soon.
I'm not so sure about this. Where did you hear it? I remember the susbtantiated rumor that Sony held a "contest" to have people develop CF drivers, but that nobody ever took it up. I would be fairly surprised if Sony shied away from its MS standard.

So, I'm gonna wait and see what the Palm and PPC fronts have to offer over the next two months (h2200, and other new models) and make my decision based on those models.
That's a pretty good idea. With the PPC, it seems like the best is yet to come.

[Fishie]

HOWEVER!!! With the new PXA255 replacing the current PXA250 procs in current PDA (I'm assuming Sony included) I'm sure the video playback would be no problem on either the Sony or PPC - albeit it'll be a lot more work to get the Sony to work.
Well, I'm fairly confident that the PXA255 is only going into PPCs. Basically PXA255 is Intel's chip. Palm OS devices don't use Intel chips - they have the same ARM architecture, but not necessarily the same brand. Even so, video playback on the PPC is just fine as it is. :)

The NX series will have CF drivers soon to use the CD slot for storage, meaning the problem with MS storage won't be a problem - but I've got a feeling it will be replaced soon.
I'm not so sure about this. Where did you hear it? I remember the susbtantiated rumor that Sony held a "contest" to have people develop CF drivers, but that nobody ever took it up. I would be fairly surprised if Sony shied away from its MS standard.

So, I'm gonna wait and see what the Palm and PPC fronts have to offer over the next two months (h2200, and other new models) and make my decision based on those models.
That's a pretty good idea. With the PPC, it seems like the best is yet to come.

Sony does use the Intel chips, its Palm that uses OMAP.
As for the CF drivers, Sony deliberatly locked it out, the driver competition was run by an enthusiast website and Sony is doing everything they can to stop CF drivers from becoming public in order to force people to use MS only.

[Janak Parekh]

Also, at the moment, the storage limit for Sony handhelds is at 128MB. I know MS Pro is planned, but at this point you can only have 128MB, which I can can assure you, is inadequate. :D
Not that I endorse Memory Sticks :pukeface:, but 1GB Memory Stick Pros are now on Sony's SonyStyle website. Can't use them with anything but the NZ90 and the TG50 right now (support is coming for the NX60/70v), but they're no longer a complete myth.

FWIW, I just saw the NZ90 this week. It is too large, and this is coming from a man who used to pocket an iPaq with a CF sleeve every day. Sony's proprietary behavior towards their sound APIs and the CF slot doesn't help either. However, I hope to see the two platforms continue to compete with each other; that's best for consumers.

--janak

[spursdude]

Also, at the moment, the storage limit for Sony handhelds is at 128MB. I know MS Pro is planned, but at this point you can only have 128MB, which I can can assure you, is inadequate. :D
Not that I endorse Memory Sticks :pukeface:, but 1GB Memory Stick Pros are now on Sony's SonyStyle website. Can't use them with anything but the NZ90 right now, but they're no longer a complete myth.


Oh wow... cool (I guess...). Also a "wow" to the price... $639.99. I know it's a new format, and new formats are always expensive, but I'll take a cheaper CF card anyday. I could get 6 512MB CF and a 256MB CF card for that much... 3.25GB for the same price.

But it's good to see storage standards increasing, no matter how much I dislike Memory Sticks.

[dh]

Actually, check out cliesource.com.
A guy there claims to have a working driver for the CF that allows reading and writing to the card. I think there are still some issues, but they are getting there.
In fact, if the NX60 was using PPC and had CF and an SD slot, it would be a fantastic device, IMO.
That said, the Axim is the tech bargain of the century (so far!). Does everything I need and more.
Oh, my 1GB CF card was $210.00 at Dell. Beat that Sony!

[Pony99CA]

The sony advantages are definately appealing, like the nice 320 x 480 screen, remote control features [...]
You're aware that the iPAQ 5450 (and the 3900 series, too) has Consumer IR and Nevo remote control software built-in, right?

Steve

[CTSLICK]

I have an EM-500 and pondered the same questions as you. Does Palm have what I need now? What PocketPC would I move to? Well, last night (after literally months of debate) I decided. A Dell X5 Advanced is ordered and will be on its way soon. I can hardly wait. SD for memory, CF for connectivity options, 64MB of RAM, 400 Mhz and a screen I can easily see when I am outside. I can't even imagine what this will be like. Wheeee!

[mc_03]

Yep I should be getting my Axim soon too. "In Production!" :) Although it looks big, apparently it is pretty much the same size as the EM500.

Plus the new axims have PXA255s, so they are up to date. And they are so inexpensive, even in Canadian dollars the price is actually bearable! :lol:

[Sheynk]

e750...period

[JohnnyFlash]

Yeah, it's a big debate. The new iPaq definately looks great, it's a bit big too though, but has built in wi-fi and BT, plus the remote as someone said. But it's over $1000 CAD, and so new that a better deal on eBay would be hard to find. Not to mention it's only got 1 expansion slot. But SD is pretty cheap. Either way, the 5450 (I believe) is a winner, and looks sooo much better than the gawdy toshiba line :?

If Sony comes out with a new handheld with the CF slot, and the drivers are out to use it with any CF device, and it's using the new PXA255 proc at 200 MHz or more, with its beautiful screen and built in keyboard, than I'll be sold, unless PPC comes out with a comparable device for less. With a built in keyboard, new doors would open. Buying one of those fold up keyboards, although allowing faster input, would also require a flat surface, extra money, and extra space to carry it around.:roll:

I do enjoy the PPCs, but the bigger screen doesn't seem as appealing as it used to because of the low res compared to Sony - but I hate how Sony is so proprietary, it almost makes me want to ignore the sony camp altogether. But alas, I cannot.

So, as I said, I have to wait and see what the new offerings are. If they aren't that much better than current devices, than I'll get one of the current ones and save some money - if they're much better, than I'll find a way to make up the extra cash to buy my dream machine - either way I should be happy... But the price of that happiness is patience...

...

Patience costs too much! :|

...

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[spursdude]

gawdy toshiba line :?
I'm gonna pretend you didn't say that... :) Care to explain? I really like the Toshiba e750 design, and also the e3xx design.

Also, you say you really like the Sony, but don't you find it too big? If you consider the iPaqs a bit large, I would think that you'd find the NX and NZ to be monsters.

Oh, and nobody has mentioned it, but there is a PPC Phone Edition model with a built-in keyboard, by Hitachi, which would satisfy your desire for a built-in keyboard and also wireless connectivity.

[Pony99CA]

gawdy toshiba line :?
I'm gonna pretend you didn't say that... :) Care to explain? I really like the Toshiba e750 design, and also the e3xx design.
I agree; I don't find the Toshibas to be gaudy (the correct spelling :lol:). They look decent, not "ostentatiously or tastelessly ornamented".

If I had to pick an ugly Pocket PC, it would probably be the Dell, although it certainly is the best bang for the buck.

Steve

[JohnnyFlash]

Hey, I'm entitled to my opinion, and that is that I find the Toshiba line unattractive, as do many others. I'm sure you can see that it's not the sexiest PDA to date, the Sonys I believe are sexy, with their brushed metal looks and curves. Also, it seems the Toshibas have decided to let their "simple" design overtake ergonomics, because when I hold any of them in my hand, they don't feel at all comfortable, and the buttons are not in good spots either IMHO, which is good enough reason for me to not spend hundreds of dollars on one.

I used the word "gaudy" (This isn't a legal matter either, so misspelling doesn't void my case) because it does seem to me like it was "tastelessly ornamented", with no centrality to it's design. Just a box, with buttons put on the front, and sides, in places that didn't seem to be totally well thought out (ergonomically or esthetically) - for me anyway. It reminds me of the "plum-pudding model". But if the design is perfect for you, than I'm glad - and more power to ya!

The new iPaq is large compared to some other PPCs available, and true the Sony is ever larger, but it has a huge beautiful screen, built in keyboard, and a great design - like I said, if it's got more features, than I'm cool with it being bigger. I'm sure though when you get down to it, the size difference isn't all that much, not enough to make me turn the other cheek. The iPaq has that antenna, which doesn't bother me so much because the Sony would have part of the CF card sticking out more than that antenna sticks out anyway. I'll try and get to a Sony Store soon to get a real idea for how big the device is.

I'm gonna have to say that HP's offerings are probably the most appealing in the PPC camp right now, and it's a tough decision. I love the swivel design of the NX series, but that alone isn't enough to make me go with Sony. I'd love to just get the 5450, but it's also much more expensive and I refuse to get a PDA without the newer XScale now that I know it's there, and much better for the same price.

I've never liked Dell, and I don't find the Axim line much more appealing than the Toshiba line (I've also heard of many problems with the Dells, and I believe them since I have a friend who did tech support for Dell) - but we'll see what the X7 has to offer.

Anyway, this is a good debate. And of course, at any point in time one could step in and say: "The best thing to do would be wait to see what comes out next" But with Palms picking up, and wireless being more and more adopted, and Intel releasing a better processor, and there being rumors of new devices coming from many manufacturers soon, this is a time when PDAs are really starting to evolve and I hope that the next gen of PDAs are as groundbreaking as the original iPaq. And I hope my next PDA purchase will last me many years, be compatible with current and upcoming technologies and be powerful enough to handle any applications I need it to.

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[Pony99CA]

Hey, I'm entitled to my opinion, and that is that I find the Toshiba line unattractive, as do many others. I'm sure you can see that it's not the sexiest PDA to date, the Sonys I believe are sexy, with their brushed metal looks and curves. Also, it seems the Toshibas have decided to let their "simple" design overtake ergonomics, because when I hold any of them in my hand, they don't feel at all comfortable, and the buttons are not in good spots either IMHO, which is good enough reason for me to not spend hundreds of dollars on one.
Nobody said you weren't entitled to your opinion. However, we're just as entitled to our opinions, and are sharing them with you. :-)

You can certainly say you don't like the ergonomics, and, like looks, that's a personal decision. However, I would have to disagree on the ornamentation. I've always found most Pocket PCs, including the Toshibas, to be fairly Spartan (the exception being the Casio E-200 (http://www.casio.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.detail&catalog=Personal%20PCs&section=Pocket%20PCs&product=E%2D200), with it's two-tone look and interesting directional pad).

Steve

[JohnnyFlash]

Exactly. I too have found the design of most PPCs to be a bit "austere" (as long as were using cultured words), and although the E-200 was a bit out there, it was out there in the wrong direction. I like the look and feel of the Sonys, even the Tungsten T feels nice in ones hand. The NX60 isn't as ergonomic as the TG50, but definately more than the Toshibas, and ergonomics are important because I will be using it a lot, and want to feel comfortable. If I'm going to watch a full lenght movie in the train, I'm going to have to hold that thing for a long time. Not to mention the hold feature on the Sonys would mean that accidental button pushing would never be an issue (something which proves annoying, and drains batteries accidentally). That's another Sony only feature that is a big plus that isn't found in any PPC.

In all honesty, I think the EM-500 was one of the nicest looking PDAs, and it was colourful and felt good to hold and use, as do the iPaqs and Sonys.

And of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but spursdude asked me to explain why I thought that, and after you defined the word "gaudy" I figured I would both explain to him why I thought that as well as defend why I chose that word.

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[Cracknell]

You do realize the TG 50 is almost as thick as Dell Axim right? At least the Dell has side rubber grip.

if TG50 is ergonomic, all iPAQ and toshiba are ergonomic, since they all have roughly the same physical dimension and surface finish.

hell even the E200 is ergonomic if TG50 is ergonomic.

[JohnnyFlash]

It's ergonomic in the way that it's button placement is perfect for me. The jog dial is in a good spot, so is the back button, and it is very thin, which makes it comfortable to hold. The thicker it is, the more your hand has to deform to hold it, but with something this thin you aren't forced to have to curl your hand in an uncomfortable way. That's why thick devices are rounded at the sides (obviously), so your hand can more easily wrap around it - but being so thin, I don't have to wrap my hands around it at all.

The memory stick slot is right where my index finger is, and everything is easily accessible and not in a place it could be accidentally pushed. The speaker is behind, so I never have to worry about covering it, and the stylus holder is away from all the other buttons.

The Dells do have the rubber grip, as do the EM-500s (my current PDA) and I think it's great, but I'm also a sucker for the brushed metal look and since it's brushed (slightly rough and not smooth) it sticks sufficiently to my hand.

I agree that most PPCs are somewhat ergonomic in their casings; it's the button placement that can make or break it for me. If your hand can hold the unit comfortably, and all your fingers are where they belong, that means you don't have to strain to hold it OR use it!! If your fingers natural positions aren't in ideal spots, that increases the amount of strain on your hands to use the device. Holding the Sony, all my fingers were where they belonged, resulting in a better overall PDA experience.

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[dh]

I refuse to get a PDA without the newer XScale now that I know it's there, and much better for the same price.
|||synthtax|||

If this is essential to you, you really have a choice on one, the Tosh e750. The Dell's that have the new processor are using it as a drop-in replacement for the older one so not really taking advantage of the new features.

I thought for a while about the 5450 before setting on the Axim. The price is just too high and the single expansion slot design is a negative. The low price of CF memory makes a CF slot essential for me.

Let's face it, all the PPCs have a few horror stories. I would have been tempted to wait for an e750 were it not for all the problems I've read about with the e740. Having said that, there are a lot of e740 users here that have had great success with them. It seems to be a matter of luck, whichever you choose.

One last thing, on the size issue, my Axim in it's Sena case is actually smaller than my old Palm Vx in it's Coach case. The Dell is about 1/16" thnker, but 1/4" smaller in each of the two main dimensions. Cool!