Thinking of Purchasing a Laptop [Archive]

shawnc

03-28-2003, 01:29 AM

I really value the opinion of this community so here goes. At some point over the next 12 months or so I will likely be looking for a laptop. We already have a desktop but it is a three to fours years old and I think I'm ready for something new.

I have yet to take the wireless network plunge, but will likely do so when I get the laptop. I've seen the Intel ad's about the new mobile chip though the commercials don't really tell how these chips are any different.

Yahoo sent me an email with the following link and I've got to admit that I'm quite intriqued. My question and request is simply for anyones opinion on this Fujitsu, or any other recommendations for a laptop. Being a non-IS person, I don't need all the bells and whistles, but I would like a fairly fast processor (no celeron), and built-in wireless.

http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P2

Any advice or opinions are appreciated.

Never tried to attach a link. Hope this works.

pocketpcdude1024

03-28-2003, 01:37 AM

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the links work. :?

Shadowcat

03-28-2003, 01:44 AM

I can't the link to work either.

Basically the new mobile chip ( the Pentium-M) is faster than the P4-M at the same clockspeed. So a 1.5 GHz P-M is faster than a 1.5 GHz P4-M. In addition, the new P-M requires less power and the new laptops can last at least 5 hours on a single charge, if memory serves correct. Also, some of these new laptops with the P-M and built-in WiFi will be classified as Centrino laptops. So if you can afford it, I'd definately suggest one of the new laptops since they fulfill both your requirements.

Eitel

03-28-2003, 02:41 AM

Take the www. out.

http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P2

shawnc

03-28-2003, 02:51 AM

Take the www. out.

http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P2

Eitel,

Thanx!

Shadowcat

03-28-2003, 03:11 AM

BTW, Fujitsu laptops have an excellent reputation. When I was shopping for my laptop most of my friends suggested Fujitsu. Why I got an IBM is another story (althought their laptops are excellent too).

Sheynk

03-28-2003, 03:24 AM

ok... go to www.cnet.com , although I usually dont trust their reviews they have a very comprehensive feature about the new Intel chipset and what notebooks have it. Personally I've had very good experience with toshiba laptops but out of the presented bunch, the acer is the clear performance winner while the IBM takes the 1st place among battery life

enjoy

Kati Compton

03-28-2003, 04:36 AM

While I've heard good things about Fujitsu laptops, and I personally am looking at something like the linked laptop, I wouldn't recommend it for a primary machine. If you look, it's smaller than your average tiny laptop, and has an unusual form factor. It's a "wide-screen" format, not the aspect ratio that is normally used. I think this is good for travel, but too restricting for general use unless you plan to have an external monitor most of the time.

Also, while the price is actually pretty good for what you get, there's a lot of laptops for cheaper with faster processors....

Basically, there's nothing *worng* with that laptop, but you may want to look at something a bit bigger...

acronym

03-28-2003, 02:43 PM

the link I checked showed a laptop using the crusoe 933mhz processor. I personally wouldn't recommend that processor for anything other than light travel - it is very sluggish (the tradeoff is longer battery life - or in this case, a smaller battery). The specs of the centrino chips look great, I heard they will get better when integrated wifi is incorporated later this year.
also, particular to that fuji, there is no wristrest - if you do alot of typing you'll have to attach an external keyboard.

Pat Logsdon

03-28-2003, 05:16 PM

Check this out:

http://www.dynamism.com/mm1/main.shtml

Interesting concept, 1/2" thick, built-in WiFi, optional 9.5 hour battery, and it has a cradle. 8O
Plus, they have an "Open Box" version for $1499.

bobkatt

03-29-2003, 04:51 PM

The Fujitsu laptop looks good. They are an excellent manufacturer.
So are many Japanese manufacturers. Toshiba and Sharp being others. Most Japanese manufacturers do not really promote their models in North America.

In any case, I would not concentrate too hard on the processor alone.
There is no processor on the market that's the best all around. One may have great speed performance in the computational area with mhz but slower on the I/O communications. Others maybe a real power hog or generate more heat. I would look carefully at the overall package and get what you need and not what you want. The bells and whistles are what helps the manufacturer sell their products and you cannot really get away from this.

These are the key areas to consider.
1. Features you need must be present.
2. Have a screen that you are comfortable in seeing.
3. The ability to angle the screen below 45 degrees. Some laptops do not allow you lay the screen flat.
4. 256 megs of memory or more.
5. 20 gigs of hard drive space or more
6. 16 megs of video or more and a video accellerator card
7. CD Access controls for music/video play.
8. 2 or more USB ports
9. Cd-Rom drive bay on the front
10. Built in wrist support. At least 3 inches infront of the keyboard available for your wrists.

Just to re-inforce the processor question. Having a zillion mhz processor alone does not ensure a fast computer, everything else in the computer connected to the processor must also be inline with the processors speed to maintain that processors performance overall.
Therefore a fast drive, fast memory, lots of memory, fast i/o controllers etc. . . Therefore care must be taken not to get too hung up on processor alone. As an example you might have a fast processor but no highspeed graphics chip on a high res screen will really slow down the performance.

Good luck

shawnc

03-29-2003, 05:40 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I love this site. People helping people they don't even know. Thanx to all who posted (and some of the comments were very elaborate :D ).

Kati's comments probably convinced me that this was not the laptop for me. I had viewed the widescreen format as a positive. After reading her comment's and taking a second look, I agree with her assessment that this is likely not conducive to everyday usage. She also hit the nail on the head with her "there is nothing wrong with this machine" comment. That's what I was fixated on, but there are likely better machines for what my needs are. I was even more convinced of this after reading the link that Sheynk provided to cnet.com on the new intel processers.

Now my problem is with the link Surgical Snack provided on the Sharp machine. At $1,500 for an open box, that machine has me drooling. It appears to have everything I'm looking for and it meets the exhaustive checklist provided by bobkatt with the exception of a slightly smaller harddrive. I don't like the fact that it does not come standard with a CD or floppy, but the docking station likely mitigates that shortcoming. Plus, I can always buy the cd drive later if I decide.

Again, thanx to all for the help. As it stands right now, I'm seriously considering the Sharp.

Any reasons I should reconsider.........

Janak Parekh

03-29-2003, 05:45 PM

Again, thanx to all for the help. As it stands right now, I'm seriously considering the Sharp.

Any reasons I should reconsider.........
Hmm... I don't want to be a wet blanket, and perhaps my advice is completely igorant, but I'm kind of reluctant to buy a laptop that I can't get support for from the US division of the manufacturer. I think that Dynamism laptop would fall in this category.

Me, I'm looking at three different categories of notebooks as my next generation: A Tablet PC, especially the new light NEC Versa LitePad (http://www.neccomp.com/products/Versa/litepad/);
A Centrino laptop, like the new Sony Z1 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=kkf-0nunlK_-yUUiXxf02TS29-DkErsxLYY=?CatalogCategoryID=ENcKC0%2eNOo8AAAD0mpw0_jQ3&ProductID=afMKC0%2eNv8wAAAD0yNs0_jQ8&Dept=cpu) (I like Sony's laptops, despite their MS slots);
A 12" Mac Powerbook G4 (AlBook (http://www.apple.com/powerbook/index12.html)) Too bad I can't get all three. ;) Good luck with whichever unit you end up with.

--janak

disconnected

03-29-2003, 06:01 PM

That new NEC Versa Litepad looks awesome. Has anyone actually seen one live? I noticed the specs mention ethernet and wireless, but nothing about dialup? Also I didn't see anything about battery life. Are tablets and the new Centrino mutually exclusive?

Janak Parekh

03-29-2003, 06:11 PM

That new NEC Versa Litepad looks awesome. Has anyone actually seen one live?
I don't think it's officially available yet, although it should be Real Soon Now.

I noticed the specs mention ethernet and wireless, but nothing about dialup?
You'd have to use a PC card modem, I believe.

Also I didn't see anything about battery life. Are tablets and the new Centrino mutually exclusive?
That's a good question! So far, yes, but maybe not long term.

BTW, one other laptop I'm thinking about is the NEC Versa DayLite - it has a transflective display (even though they call it reflective) so you can actually use it outside. Unfortunately, it's not as bright indoors.

--janak

shawnc

03-29-2003, 07:34 PM

Hmm... I don't want to be a wet blanket, and perhaps my advice is completely igorant, but I'm kind of reluctant to buy a laptop that I can't get support for from the US division of the manufacturer. I think that Dynamism laptop would fall in this category.

No problem. A wet blanket is EXACTLY what I'm looking for prior to plucking down 2 grand on a laptop.

The NEC and Sony doesn't work for me but I'm intriguied by the Apple. I've never used one but have considered it for some time now. My wife had some experience years ago and she HATED it so if I decide on this one it will take some salesmanship on my part. My main concern is with compatibility. I'm definitely going to set up (or at least try to) a wireless network and I don't know if this will work with a PC and an Apple.

Not sure what I'm going to do, but thanx for the advice.

Janak Parekh

03-29-2003, 07:55 PM

The NEC and Sony doesn't work for me but I'm intriguied by the Apple. I've never used one but have considered it for some time now. My wife had some experience years ago and she HATED it so if I decide on this one it will take some salesmanship on my part. My main concern is with compatibility. I'm definitely going to set up (or at least try to) a wireless network and I don't know if this will work with a PC and an Apple.
TCP/IP and wireless interoperability shouldn't be a problem. The latest OS (OS X) can share files with Windows machines just fine as well. My only problem is that I do a lot of Windows work right now, and I'm not sure the Virtual PC-like emulators are good enough for what I'm doing.

--janak

Steven Cedrone

03-29-2003, 08:10 PM

I noticed the specs mention ethernet and wireless, but nothing about dialup?
You'd have to use a PC card modem, I believe.

Make that a CF card modem. I don't see anything about a PC card slot. Or did I miss it???

Steve

Kati Compton

03-29-2003, 08:31 PM

No problem. A wet blanket is EXACTLY what I'm looking for prior to plucking down 2 grand on a laptop.

Well, can you give us a more clear idea of what you actually need the laptop for? How much is weight/mobility an issue (ie, travelling)? Is integrated wireless absolutely important, or is it okay to use a card (I think cards usually have better range, though there are exceptions)? Do you plan to do any gaming? Is this really your main computer that you'll do everything on (desktop replacement)? What size screen/resolution is important? If you're used to at least a 15" display, moving to a 10.4" is a big downsize, though if mobility/weight is an issue, that may justify the move.

Janak Parekh

03-29-2003, 09:50 PM

Make that a CF card modem. I don't see anything about a PC card slot. Or did I miss it???
Nope - good call. Fortunately that's not a big problem. :)

--janak

Steven Cedrone

03-29-2003, 10:52 PM

Fortunately that's not a big problem. :)

I agree, I'd still love to have one!!!

Steve

shawnc

03-30-2003, 04:49 AM

[Well, can you give us a more clear idea of what you actually need the laptop for? How much is weight/mobility an issue (ie, travelling)? Is integrated wireless absolutely important, or is it okay to use a card (I think cards usually have better range, though there are exceptions)? Do you plan to do any gaming? Is this really your main computer that you'll do everything on (desktop replacement)? What size screen/resolution is important? If you're used to at least a 15" display, moving to a 10.4" is a big downsize, though if mobility/weight is an issue, that may justify the move.

I don't really NEED a laptop, but I would like one. I'm back in school and the portability would be nice. Plus my desktop is a few years old and I would just like something a little faster.

Weight/Mobility - like anyone else, the lighter the better. But this is not a big issue for me. I do travel occassionally, but not enough to make this a big issue. The way I see it (if the wireless works for me the way I hope) is that I'll be spending a lot of time on our patio with it.

Screen size - I think I currently have a 15" screen and that is probably the size of my desktop at work. I also have an IBM laptop from work that is about 3 years old and that screen size is not a problem for me. I guess my answer to this one is that anything I get is likely to be an upgrade for me, so this is not much of an issue.

Gaming - I do absolutely NO gaming.

So to summarize:

I would like built-in wireless. I guess that means 802.11b. To a novice like myself, I assume they all are similar in terms of qualty. If (as you imply) that a card is better than built-in, then this becomes less important since the price of cards has dropped so much recently.

Lightweight and thin would be the preferred choice and I'm willing to sacrifice some performance to get it. What I'm not willing to do is sacrifice performance AND pay a premium price for thinness. That seems a little illogical to me.

Screen size - I really don't think I need anything special here. As I said, anything I get will likely be an improvement over what I have.

Compatibility with Windows - this is a must and the reason I haven't considered an Apple (up until now).

Hope this helps. Maybe you can share the results of those laptops you've been looking so longingly at today :wink: . Thanx for the help.

Pat Logsdon

03-30-2003, 05:48 AM

Hmm... I don't want to be a wet blanket, and perhaps my advice is completely igorant, but I'm kind of reluctant to buy a laptop that I can't get support for from the US division of the manufacturer. I think that Dynamism laptop would fall in this category.
I agree that this could definitely be a problem. However, Dynamism's warranty (http://www.dynamism.com/wwwarranty.shtml) looks pretty good to me. You'd definitely have to ship it off if something's wrong with it, but hey, you have to do that for everything Dell sells, too, right?

Just my 2 cents - not looking to set anyone's wet blanket on fire! :wink:

shawnc

03-30-2003, 07:34 AM

Hmm... I don't want to be a wet blanket, and perhaps my advice is completely igorant, but I'm kind of reluctant to buy a laptop that I can't get support for from the US division of the manufacturer. I think that Dynamism laptop would fall in this category.
I agree that this could definitely be a problem. However, Dynamism's warranty (http://www.dynamism.com/wwwarranty.shtml) looks pretty good to me. You'd definitely have to ship it off if something's wrong with it, but hey, you have to do that for everything Dell sells, too, right?

Just my 2 cents - not looking to set anyone's wet blanket on fire! :wink:

Surgical Snack,

Appreciate the input and definitely favoring the Sharp right now. I have an Axim and was considering a Dell laptop and your point about having to send it back is well taken. I read the Dynamism warranty and I feel comfortable with it.

Kati Compton

03-30-2003, 07:54 AM

Weight/Mobility - like anyone else, the lighter the better. But this is not a big issue for me. I do travel occassionally, but not enough to make this a big issue. The way I see it (if the wireless works for me the way I hope) is that I'll be spending a lot of time on our patio with it.

Just to add another confusing option. If really your main objective would be to use it on the patio, you could get a nice fast (but they're cheaper) desktop system, then a low cost laptop where you're not as worried about features, and use XP Remote Desktop to actually work on your desktop PC from the patio. But that might be getting a little extreme. ;)

Hope this helps. Maybe you can share the results of those laptops you've been looking so longingly at today :wink: . Thanx for the help.

Heh - well, it basically seems like there's a wide variety that could fit your needs. Do you know if you want a CD drive built in, or would external USB be adequate?

Here are a selection of a few laptops on the smaller end.

Toshiba Portege 4010 (http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/pc/pc_cf_prodChassis.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0395625670.1049004662@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccciadchlmfigffcgfkceghdgngdgll.0&comm=ST&pfam=Portege&pmod=4010) This one is nice because it has a bay that you can swap a CDRW/DVD drive in/out of (lighter for travel w/o, more functional with), or you can swap in an extra battery if it's a long flight.

Toshiba Portege 2010 (http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/pc/pc_cf_prodChassis.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0395625670.1049004662@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccciadchlmfigffcgfkceghdgngdgll.0&comm=ST&pfam=Portege&pmod=2010) Cheaper, smaller, lighter, no internal CDdrive.

Toshiba Portege R100 (http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/pc/pc_cf_prodChassis.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0395625670.1049004662@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccciadchlmfigffcgfkceghdgngdgll.0&comm=ST&pfam=Portege&pmod=R100) Probably not one you'd want given what you've said - ultra small with a fast processor, but more expensive than the 2010 (which is probably plenty small).

Dell Lattitude C400 and X200 (http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/series_latit_mobile_notebooks.htm) C400 is only available through small business (and maybe larger business, but not home). This one seems to use external CD drives, though it's really not explicitly stated the way it usually is anywhere I can find. But looking at it in the pictures there doesn't seem to be a place for an internal drive, yet the ordering options look as if it is internal. Call ahead on that one. X200 is smaller and lighter. Explicitly states that CD drive is external or part of a docking station.

Fujitsu B Series (http://www.fujitsu.ca/products/notebooks/lifebook_b_series/b2620/) Small and light, touchscreen. External CD. This one doesn't grab me for some reason.

Fujitsu S Series (http://www.fujitsu.ca/products/notebooks/lifebook_s_series/s6110/) Internal bay for DVD/CDRW or 2nd battery. Full size keyboard (I forgot to check on the others, but the tiny tiny ones don't always have full-sized). Small-to-mid weight with 2nd battery or drive.

Compaq Evo N410c (http://www.smb.compaq.com/dstore/ctoBases.asp?ProductLineId=430&FamilyId=1231&LowBaseId=7383&LowPrice=$1,520.00&oi=E9CED&BEID=19701&SBLID=) This series has a weird way of doing built-in wireless, which is to add a component to the back of the screen part of the laptop - you have to purchase it separately, and it costs more than a regular PC card, but supposedly performs quite well, and since it's in the screen doesn't stick out and hit your leg when using it. This one also seems to require an expansion dock to use a CD drive, though they're not particularly clear about it.

Sharp MV Series (http://sharp.smartermall.com/product.asp?sku=2319395) I've not seen a Sharp laptop before, and I would be concerned about support. Of the models, though, this one is closest to what I would want.

I haven't listed any Sonys because I'm dissatisfied with how they handled me wanting to update my SR17 from ME to 2000. They were of absolutely no help, and so I am not buying from them again. However, if you don't want to change anything ever about the laptop, they do make good quality ones, though they tend to be on the pricey side as I remember.

HTH

shawnc

03-30-2003, 09:22 AM

Kati,

Can't thank you enough for such an exhaustive reply. To clarify the one point you asked about, I would actually prefer that it NOT have the internal CD drive.

You have sent me back to the drawing board with 3 of your options. The Toshiba 2010. Price is a little higher than I was looking at, but the size and specs are dead-on and with the free cd drive, it makes this one worth considering.

Both Dells. I like the X200 a little better, but at $200 off, the X400 appears to be the better value. Dell also mentions a free PDA. I would be shocked if it was the Axim, but it seems bizarre that they would be giving away someone elses PDA. Either way, I'm going to give them a call on Monday.

The Sharp - again, a little more than I was hoping, but for the size and specs on this machine I think I can swing it. It appears to be a little heavier than it looks in the picture and I wish they would indicate what their "weight saver configuration" is, but I can find that out on Monday (or someother time when its not 3:21 am :D ).

Thanx again for all your help.

mr_yellow

03-30-2003, 09:28 AM

No one's mentioned IBM Thinkpads...

There's the new X31 series thinkpad that has the new Intel Pentium M chip, gives a battery life of like 6 hours i think or more, plus you can add on an additional extender battery to double that for continuous on-time.

It's not smaller than the other japanese models out there, but it's still only 1-1.2 inches thick, 12 inch screen, pretty light, excellent build quality, built in wifi with the antenna in the screen.. You shouldn't have any problems lugging it around.

Only downside is that it doesn't have an integrated cd-rom. (although the X series I use, I've barely needed the cdrom while i'm out and and about away from my desk(i also keep a docking station with a dvd-rom).

You can easily get a used or older model X series for pretty cheap...

And I have to say, you *must* get a wireless NIC with your laptop. It just makes it soo much easier to move around and be mobile when you're not tied down by an ethernet cable. Even when you're at home.

anyways, goodluck

acronym

03-30-2003, 01:15 PM

Janak - while the new g4 12" powerbooks are nice, it really peeved me that they used the same dim LCD screen as on the iBooks. The 15" and 17" laptops use a much better screen.

marlof

03-30-2003, 02:09 PM

Janak - while the new g4 12" powerbooks are nice, it really peeved me that they used the same dim LCD screen as on the iBooks. The 15" and 17" laptops use a much better screen.

Dim? I'm looking at that screen right now, and it's brighter than that on my Sony Vaio. I didn't see the 17" in real life, but I know the 15" is a bit better than the 12". That doesn't mean the 12" isn't a very good screen in itself. In fact, the quality of the 12" screen is one of the good things going for the iBook and 12" PB. To me, it's very crisp and clear. Of course, a lot depends on your brightness settings, and some on your viewing angle.

In response to shawnc: I've been using an 12" iBook for some time now next to my WinXP desktop, and I can do most I do on WinXP on OS X as well. Esp. if you give the 12" PB some decent RAM, you could get Virtual PC 6 running on it pretty well, which is a big step forward to running Win apps on a Mac. If you don't want to go that route, it sort of depends on the kind of compatibility you're after. To me it was just about using MS Office docs. Office:Mac and Office XP documents can be shared without conversion, so I had no problem. If you need more compatibility, you should check first if the integration you want is available, before going around looking for solutions to problems you wouldn't have on an XP notebook.

Kati Compton

03-30-2003, 04:08 PM

Yes - I realized this morning that I had forgotten the IBM option: X Series (http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=-840&storeId=1&categoryId=2072542&langId=-1&dualCurrId=73). Sorry, it was late. :P

Kati Compton

03-30-2003, 04:12 PM

I wish they would indicate what their "weight saver configuration" is, but I can find that out on Monday (or someother time when its not 3:21 am :D ).

Weight-saver is when you don't have anything in a modular bay. So the laptop has a modular bay that could have the CD drive or perhaps a 2nd battery, either of which would add to the weight. Weight saver mode is probably a little piece of plastic to close that "door", but doesn't add much in terms of weight.

Also note that weights are always given using the "standard" battery, and will be higher if you get an extended battery. Also make sure if you order an extended battery, that you take a look at a picture of it. Some batteries fit essentially the same footprint as the standard one, just are heavier. Others are significantly bigger, and can even look like a docking station on some laptops (I think the Compaq is one of these).

Janak Parekh

03-30-2003, 04:42 PM

I agree that this could definitely be a problem. However, Dynamism's warranty (http://www.dynamism.com/wwwarranty.shtml) looks pretty good to me. You'd definitely have to ship it off if something's wrong with it, but hey, you have to do that for everything Dell sells, too, right?
I'm talking more about things like firmware upgrades. Admittedly, it's not like Sony US is good about it in the first place...

No one's mentioned IBM Thinkpads...
That's because their new models are generally overpriced. Yes, they're the best -- and my advisor always gets an IBM Thinkpad. But in her case, she's got research money to pay for it. :)

Janak - while the new g4 12" powerbooks are nice, it really peeved me that they used the same dim LCD screen as on the iBooks. The 15" and 17" laptops use a much better screen.
I've gotta agree with Marlof here - I've played with the 12" and it's very bright. Perhaps you were looking at it in a power saving fashion?

Here are a selection of a few laptops on the smaller end.
You are truly a laptop goddess, Kati! :D I've been looking at a number of those, like the 2010, too... but most of them don't have the new Pentium-M processor used in the Centrino solution, which gives great battery life and very good performance from what I've read. It frustrates me that most of the Centrino solutions are large laptops. I suspect that, for myself, I'll probably wait a little bit longer. What I'd really, really, like is an Apple G4-esque tablet PC solution, something about 12" Powerbook sized. Oh, and make it transflective (or OLED) so I can see it outside. :D

--janak

Kati Compton

03-30-2003, 05:14 PM

You are truly a laptop goddess, Kati! :D

Ha! Born out of frustration that I wasn't able to easily google a good laptop comparison I think, and CNet didn't do it for me either on a number of counts. Part of it is that I tend to be looking more in an "in-between" area between really small and medium. (w/internal drive, preferably 4lbs tops with drive).

Frankly, a desktop for me will always be what I use when I need power. I want portability, but I'll need to be able to read CDs and don't want an external drive. When at home/work I would want to dock with an external monitor/keyboard and use this machine for browsing/email/paper writing/paper editing/presentation creation, and my work/home desktops for the hard-core work and gaming.

Battery life is important for planes....

Hopefully by fall there will be some Centrino smaller laptops...

bobkatt

03-30-2003, 06:51 PM

I am not convinced that the Centrino processor will make a huge impact with laptops specially when Intel has the M Series. This is a Pentium 4 - M where the "M" stands for mobile.

Go here for the specs.
http://www.intel.com/home/notebook/pentium4-m/index.htm

Bob

Janak Parekh

03-30-2003, 06:54 PM

I am not convinced that the Centrino processor will make a huge impact with laptops specially when Intel has the M Series. This is a Pentium 4 - M where the "M" stands for mobile.
It's more confusing than that, though. The P4-M doesn't seem to be the same thing as the processor used in Centrino bundles, the Pentium-M (http://www.intel.com/products/notebook/processors/pentiumm/index.htm), which supports lower-power operation. I'd be happy with a Pentium-M solution without the remaining Centrino components.

--janak

shawnc

03-30-2003, 07:17 PM

In response to shawnc: I've been using an 12" iBook for some time now next to my WinXP desktop, and I can do most I do on WinXP on OS X as well. Esp. if you give the 12" PB some decent RAM, you could get Virtual PC 6 running on it pretty well, which is a big step forward to running Win apps on a Mac. If you don't want to go that route, it sort of depends on the kind of compatibility you're after. To me it was just about using MS Office docs. Office:Mac and Office XP documents can be shared without conversion, so I had no problem. If you need more compatibility, you should check first if the integration you want is available, before going around looking for solutions to problems you wouldn't have on an XP notebook.

Marloff,

Based on your response, I'm going to throw the Apple into the mix. When I discuss compatitiblity I am DEFINITELY mostly concerned with using MS Office apps (word, excel, and access). As a non-systems person, I am ashamed to admit that I don't even know what other compatiblity issues there are :oops: . The only other things would be syncing my Axim and building a wireless network. I had always viewed the Apple/PC comparison as similar to the old VHS/Beta wars where the Beta was generally considered a better machine but the VHS was more widespread and popular. Plus the Apple would provide exposure to something different and that would be important to me. I would have to sell my wife on the concept, but I think I can make the case with her :wink:

Sans a compatibility problem, if the Apple is competitive in terms of price, size, and features, I can easily see me going this route.

Thanx for the info.

Janak Parekh

03-30-2003, 07:24 PM

The only other things would be syncing my Axim and building a wireless network.
The wireless network is easy. Syncing is a bit complicated, but works. The other monkey wrench to consider is that you'd have to purchase Mac versions of your apps (i.e., Office v.X is much nicer than running Office XP through Virtual PC).

It's never easy making a decision. :)

--janak

bobkatt

03-30-2003, 07:29 PM

Exactly my point. The Centrino has the P4-M chipset with Wireless chipset added. My suggestion is by going with the P4-M processor instead, you can add the wireless support through third party wireless cards and not be limited to the chipset that's built into the Centrino.

Either way the processors have potential but in the long run I feel that the "M" series alone will outlast the Centrino. The issues with processors is that the more you pack into one processor, the more heat is generated.
Heat is one of the key performance killers and a special heat dissipation considerations must be taken to avoid loss in performance.

As I have stated previously, the processor alone does not make a feature or performance rich laptop. All the included components must be taken into consideration along side the processors.

One key point that we have all overlooked at this point is the software.
What key application will run on this laptop. Some programs run better on specific laptops over others. Programs like Softimage which is a graphics creations program likes to have as much video memory as possible to maintain a smooth operation. This on top of a 1280 X 1024 minimum screen resolution.
Programs like Powerpoint, really like the computational speed and internal cache availability to maintain smooth operations.

Overall having external cache on the motherboard is always an asset.

Someone mentioned manufactures support is important but I say not anymore from a users help standpoint. As long as the manufacturer provides driver,BIOS and bug fixes as necessary, the user support is readily available through 100's of third party sites like this site now.

This being said, there is no perfect solution. You just have to bite the bullet and live with what you have purchased. I would try to purchase something like the Toshiba Protege or Tecra series that are geared for business. The consumer models always lake the performance when wireless or highend video/graphics manipulation is desired.

Bob

Janak Parekh

03-30-2003, 07:39 PM

bobkatt

03-30-2003, 07:44 PM

Hi ShawnC:
I had always viewed the Apple/PC comparison as similar to the old VHS/Beta wars where the Beta was generally considered a better machine but the VHS was more widespread and popular

I politely beg to differ.
The Beta/VHS issue does not apply cause they both can run the same program/software.

In case of Apple and Microsoft there are dozens of programs only available on one operating system. Since we are on a PocketPC forum, support for PocketPC's on MAc's is very limited but this is going off topic from a Mac OS and Windows OS perspective.

The Mac is as far as I am concerned the best machine around. If I was not involved in MS Windows programming, I would be using a MAC right now for video editing and graphics manipulation. Mhz and memory to mhz and memory comparisons, the Mac's do so much more with lot less.
The hardware and operating system comes from the same manufacturer therefore optimized for performance. You cannot say this about Windows.
This is why Intel and others are always working overtime to push faster and faster processors. The Windows operating system is requesting this to compensate for the overblown size. Mac's do not require 4 gig processors but would surely benefit from such a mhz boost. :-)

The new Mac laptops have Firewire support and 802.11g support built in.
http://www.apple.com/powerbook/index17.html
If you are not planning to run software only available for Windows then I would seriously consider a Mac laptop. You will not be disappointed. Keep in mind, you must throw away all your Windows software and Windows thinking. You might say hey wait a minute, that's a lot of invested time and money but personally it is well worth it. Mac's are 100%+ MS file format compatible and in some cases more compatible over some 3 rd party Windows applications. You can even run a Windows emulator if you REALLY need to run a Windows application but I cannot see the point. Once you go to a MAC you will never go back to a Windows PC.
Sorry for the punn. . . .

Mac's will eventually rule the world.

Windows is a poor man's Mac OS. . . . the basic concept was created by Apple and licensed to Microsoft to create MS Windows. :lol:

Bob

js415

03-30-2003, 08:54 PM

I'm not sure if you have made up your mind yet, but I have owned and used 4 Toshiba's in the last 5 years, and have been very happy with each of them.

They are tough as a brick, rugged and capable. I am currently using one as my "downstairs" computer. It is hooked up through my wireless system, and it works great.

They seem to me to be very reasonably priced, rugged, and have yet to fail me.

I am sure when I get the "itch" for a new one, I will buy a Toshiba again. With built -in wireless!!!

Jerry

marlof

03-30-2003, 08:59 PM

Based on your response, I'm going to throw the Apple into the mix. When I discuss compatitiblity I am DEFINITELY mostly concerned with using MS Office apps (word, excel, and access). As a non-systems person, I am ashamed to admit that I don't even know what other compatiblity issues there are :oops: . The only other things would be syncing my Axim and building a wireless network. I had always viewed the Apple/PC comparison as similar to the old VHS/Beta wars where the Beta was generally considered a better machine but the VHS was more widespread and popular. Plus the Apple would provide exposure to something different and that would be important to me. I would have to sell my wife on the concept, but I think I can make the case with her :wink: Sans a compatibility problem, if the Apple is competitive in terms of price, size, and features, I can easily see me going this route.

My reasons to go Mac: it's small, light, pretty affordable (I went with an iBook G3 800 MHz, 640 MB RAM and it's fast enough for my needs such as Office docs, web browsing, e-mailing and light photo editing), durable, stamina (how does almost 4 hour of battery life using WiFi all the time sound?), it has cool looks and it's a great way to learn something new about computing. I've included an Airport card, and can use the wireless connections of a Linksys WiFi router and an Airport Extreme Base station. Both work equally well. As a Microsoft fanboy I have to admit that Apple's OS X really has good things going for it. I love playing with my Mac!

On synching your Axim: I'm using PocketMac Pro 2.0 right now, and I'm not very happy with it. It is a solution, and it works, but it doesn't work as good as I'd like it. But next to PocketMac the people behind Missing Sync for the Sony Clie line of PDAs are working on a Pocket PC version of their sync tools as well. In the beginning it won't be synching with Entourage, but just to the free OS X programs. They're very serious, and now competition will be there, things will only improve.

Bad things: you're facing investing in a laptop, new software as Office:Mac and probably a few utils (although the standard setup is pretty good), and may be some hardware (if you're running in compatibility issues like I had with my ancient CF card reader).

Reading your post another bad thing might be that there's no MS Access for the Mac. If you use Access, you'd be better off on the Windows side on things.

As you might understand from my posts, I don't feel at home in the Mac or Windows camp. I just don't feel religious enough about an OS to make bold statements. I just look at what I need, see if something can do it, see if I like it, then buy it and use it. Regardless of OS and religion. That makes me experienced right now with both Mac and Windows software, and IMO both have good things going for it. I just like to keep an open mind. :)

bobkatt

03-30-2003, 09:23 PM

No, that's not my point. My point is that the Pentium-M is a different processor than the P4-M, with noticeably less power requirements and numerous improvements (including multiple SpeedStep points). The 855 chipset also is used to support the enhanced power management of the Pentium-M. The Centrino combines the Pentium-M, the 855, and a wireless chipset.

The impression I get is that you like the Centrino cause it has the added 855 and wireless chipset. I do not share the same positive outlook. main reason being 802.11 is not a defacto standard in that it is always revolving from 802.11b to 802.11a, 802.11g and 802.11x etc. . . .
Therefore I would get a laptop with an P4-M and add the wireless if the laptop does not come with a wireless card in the package.

Having the support in the processor has not convinced me that overall wireless performance will increase. Too many factors that determine overall throughput which has nothing to do with the laptop in general.

The actual battery consumption is based on the whole laptop's design and not just the low powered processor alone. It is rare for me to use my laptop on battery power until the charge runs out. Most places I take and use the laptop have power available. Like coffee shops, malls, planes, subways therefore having 4 hours battery life instead of 2 is not a huge benefit for most people. Recharge every change you you get.:-)

I think I have said enough about the processor issue. :wink:

Bob

Janak Parekh

03-30-2003, 09:28 PM

The impression I get is that you like the Centrino cause it has the added 855 and wireless chipset.
No, it's particularly because of the Pentium-M + 855 combo. The 855 is less important, except that it's the only chipset that drives the P-M right now. As for wireless, I'd go either way -- while the integrated wireless might get outdated, I could still use a PC card. My main criteria is battery life, and the reports I hear are extremely promising. My alternative is the Crusoe, which is not a terrible alternative. IMHO, the P4-M is more useful as a top-performance solution, which might be a better choice for some. :)

Having the support in the processor has not convinced me that overall wireless performance will increase. Too many factors that determine overall throughput which has nothing to do with the laptop in general.
I'm actually quite convinced that the P-M has nothing to do with wireless per se -- from what I've read, they'll also be sold outside of the Centrino packaging.

The actual battery consumption is based on the whole laptop's design and not just the low powered processor alone.
Agreed, but that's why I take heart from the reports.

It is rare for me to use my laptop on battery power until the charge runs out.
See, that's probably where we differ. I do a lot of work on the train, for example, and I tend to roam between rooms when I'm using the laptop. I don't want to have to remember to recharge. But hey, whatever works best for you. :D

--janak

bobkatt

03-30-2003, 09:42 PM

Not a big deal for me to take my ac adapter with me from room to room and also on the road. A spare recharged battery works well considering that a second battery can be a lower combined cost over a laptop that has double the battery life with the built in battery alone.

My Toshiba has a small ac adapter and my Compaq only has a power cord with the ac built in. Easy to carry if I need to change rooms. :-)

Bob

acronym

03-31-2003, 01:56 AM

marlof and janak,

not saying the g4 screens are bad, just I bought a few G4s as replacement for iBooks and was really hoping the screens would be as good as the 15". (No comment on the 17s, they haven't arrived yet) I suppose if you haven't had them all on your desk at different intervals you wouldn't notice - much.

shawnc

04-12-2003, 11:31 PM

I finally took the plunge (thanx to all for the advice). For the record, I ended up with a Toshiba 2430. It has Pentium 2.4G processor, DVD-Rom/CD-RW, 15" TFT (dont know what that means) display and pretty decent Harmon Kardon speakers. What it doesn't have is the M series chip. Salesperson told me that the increase in battery power was about 1/2 hour. The difference in price did make it worthwhile based on my needs.

I also took the plunge on ATTEMPTING a wireless network, which brings me to my question. I brought a Linksys wireless-G router and wireless-G PC card. Paid an extra $30 over 802.11b but the specs made it seem to be worth the extra bucks. So I'm trying to install it and am experiencing the typical non-techie frustrations. I have connected the router to the PC and the cable modem to the router. The cable seems to run fine. The Linksys comes with a CD that says it will perform the setup if I already have internet access. Seemed like a good idea to me except that when I run the CD it says that I'm already set -up. WELL, I HAVENT DONE ANYTHING! I thought I had to create the network with my PC PRIOR to establishing the connection with the laptop. So my question is two-fold. One, can anyone suggest a source that contains step-by-step instructions for a non-techie person on how to set-up a wireless network. And two, do I simply have to connect the wires from the router to the PC and thats it before moving on to the laptop connection? Or is there something more?

UPDATE - GOT IT FIGURED OUT!

Thanx