The PDA Upgrade Nightmare

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2912182,00.html">http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2912182,00.html</a><br /><br />Buying a new PDA isn't at all like buying a new computer in many cases. Chances are, your new PDA won't work with your old keyboard, custom stylus or sleds and there is a good chance it will use a different memory card.<!><br /><br />David Berlind of ZDNet recounts some of the costs he has incurred upgrading from his Palm Pilot of the "early to mid 1990's" <i>(despite the Palm Pilot 1000 not being released until March 1996)</i> through the iPAQ 3600 and now the iPAQ 5450. His exploits in moving from the 3600 to the 5400 would be funny if not so frustrating. As he points out, he has contacts at HP, Intel, Sierra Wireless and Microsoft that us mere mortals do not, so he is at least getting information. You and I would be told to do a hard reset and be on our way. :roll:

[Janak Parekh]

I think his problem here lies with Sierra Wireless. They are making lame excuses pointing the finger at the PXA250 processor. My suspicion is that they simply don't want to spend money to fix an incompatibility in their driver.

HP is not entirely blameless either -- why the 3900-series driver wouldn't work is a legitimate question... it seems the 5450 is quite a different beast in the first place. There are other sleeves that outright don't work with the 5450 and apparently never will.

--janak

[Jimmy Dodd]

I've always thought that accessories were the biggest drawback to the Pocket PC. I bought a keyboard, extra cradle, etc. for my old Jornada, but when I switched to an Audiovox Maestro and then to a Toshiba e740 I simply did without. I would like to buy an extended battery ($129) and the expansion pack ($99) from Toshiba, as well as the Targus thumbpad keyboard ($40), and perhaps a Bluetooth SD card ($100+) as well, but I have no way of knowing how long they'll be useful if I switch PPCs - even with the upcoming Toshiba e750 its not a sure thing yet.

With MS dictating the standards PPCs must adhere to (minimum requirements), form factor is the one distinguishing charcteristic among PPCs. This is also the one factor that keeps accessories from working across devices. Cases, cradles, stylus, batteries, covers, and cables all depend on the shape of the device, the connectors' type and placement, and the position of controls. I think that manufacturers could ease a lot of concerns by assuring users that they are sticking with a particular design for a partuclar time period. I don't expect cross manufacturer consistency, just throughout a product line.

To their credit, Toshiba seems to be sticking with the same form factor for their next gen devices, and HP seems to be keeping the iPaq form factor as well (for the most part). Neither company has made any statement to the fact that we can depend on this in the future, though, and I haven't heard any pledges of making sure accessories continue to work. As for me, I'll wait and see and probably keep putting off those accessory purchases.

[Jason Dunn]

As much as I'd like to say that we'll see a "standard connector" sometime soon, it's not going to happen for a while - right now accessories have hugely fat margins, and the OEMs love it. In a sagging IT economy, they're trying to squeeze margins from wherever they can, and that includes PDAs. I'm ticked the 1910 can't use an iPAQ Stowaway keyboard...

[Janak Parekh]

As much as I'd like to say that we'll see a "standard connector" sometime soon, it's not going to happen for a while
I am working on a rant on this, though -- as it is, a LOT of Pocket PCs have the same physical connector, so it would be really nice if we could have standardized cradles. Long-term, I think it would help Pocket PC adoption if you could go to any friend's house and just plug in your PPC even if the manufacturers are different. Right now, I end up spending ~ $50-100 on new cables/cradles/AC adapters every time I switch Pocket PCs.

--janak

[R K]

I'm ticked the 1910 can't use an iPAQ Stowaway keyboard...

I think the problem is that the iPAQ H1910 can't use any keyboard period since it doesn't have a serial port controller like other Pocket PCs do. That's one corner they cut to make it cheaper I guess.

As much as I'd like to say that we'll see a "standard connector" sometime soon, it's not going to happen for a while
I am working on a rant on this, though -- as it is, a LOT of Pocket PCs have the same physical connector, so it would be really nice if we could have standardized cradles. Long-term, I think it would help Pocket PC adoption if you could go to any friend's house and just plug in your PPC even if the manufacturers are different. Right now, I end up spending ~ $50-100 on new cables/cradles/AC adapters every time I switch Pocket PCs.

Do a lot of Pocket PCs really have the same connector? I thought only Pocket PCs from the same manufacturer had the same connector.
Anyway, standardizing on cables will come much sooner than standards on cradles. Cradles have to be molded to a Pocket PCs form, so unless every manufacturer decides to start releasing rectangular Pocket PCs, you probably won't be able to use the same cradle.

I think USB would be a nice standard of manufacturers would use it. At least then we could swap our keyboards and cables without problems.

[Janak Parekh]

Do a lot of Pocket PCs really have the same connector? I thought only Pocket PCs from the same manufacturer had the same connector.
The iPaqs, the Pocket PC Phone, and the XScale-based Viewsonic/Medion/PocketGear units all have the same physical connector. The pinouts are not necessarily the same, though. :(

Cradles have to be molded to a Pocket PCs form, so unless every manufacturer decides to start releasing rectangular Pocket PCs, you probably won't be able to use the same cradle.
Agreed, but keyboards, cables, and AC adapters would be a nice start. :)

I think USB would be a nice standard of manufacturers would use it.
They can't - Pocket PCs uniformly need to be USB hosts. You can't have guest-to-guest communication. USB-to-Go and Firewire fix this -- i.e., you can have peer-to-peer communication.

--janak

[gorkon280]

I have a e740 and will probably stick with the Toshiba's. My wife just broke her palm and I was thinking about getting a e335 for her. Then I could swipe her cradle and we could use mine to sync at home and I could use hers at work! ;) I have bought a USB dongle and a USB to Serial Adapter. If I get a keyboard, it will likely be a USB Minivik rather than the belkin one. Why? COMPATABILITY! I can use the USB one with either a desktop, my PDA or my laptop. If I get a new PDA, if it does not have USB host abilities, I will buy the CF to USB card. Then I should be able to use it. I think they need to standardize connectors. Make the cradle have a USB B type end. Either the large USB B or the mini USB B and make them also include a USB host port along the bottom (NO DONGLE NEEDED PLEASE!). Sure, this may not be possible for very thing PDA's, but my e740 should definitely have been able to just put the damn USB port on the bottom. There's plenty of room. I would even do without some of the hardware buttons or a different button arangement just to have this. Also, Bluetooth may make this a moot point too. Just if the use only Bluetooth for syncing, give us a USB port....PLEASE? :)

[jlc, just jlc]

As much as I'd like to say that we'll see a "standard connector" sometime soon, it's not going to happen for a while - right now accessories have hugely fat margins, and the OEMs love it. In a sagging IT economy, they're trying to squeeze margins from wherever they can, and that includes PDAs. I'm ticked the 1910 can't use an iPAQ Stowaway keyboard...

I think you hit the nail on the head - the margins are higher in the peripherals than the machine, so they want to sell you new ones. There is very little upside to selling a machine and not getting the other purchases. It also means they can avoid competing on price for peripherals, since other manufacturers stuff won't work, maintaining margins.

It also makes switching more expensive - if manufacturer X uses a standard (to its machines but not other manufactirers) connector across its line it increases the chnaces you'll upgrade by buying one of their machines and not somebody elses.

[Macguy59]

As much as I'd like to say that we'll see a "standard connector" sometime soon, it's not going to happen for a while - right now accessories have hugely fat margins, and the OEMs love it. In a sagging IT economy, they're trying to squeeze margins from wherever they can, and that includes PDAs. I'm ticked the 1910 can't use an iPAQ Stowaway keyboard...

I thought I read that the 1910 uses the same connector, but that it was flipped around? If that is the case, couldn't there be adapter made for it?

[Kathy_Harris]

I've moved from a 3650->3870->1910. The belkin cable has been with me the whole time :) However, the stupid stowaway is now useless. I can't believe the 1910 is not compatible :( Now I have a non working pockettop and am awaiting drivers. I did have to sell the sleeves and microdrive to downgrade myself to the 1910 with extra battery, cradle, and 2 yr warranty but I still think it was worth it.

[Ed Hansberry]

The issue with the 1910 is the port is USB only, not serial so none of the serial devices, like keyboards, will work. I think this is why they turned it backwards so people wouldn't keep plugging the keyboards in, installing drivers then calling HP asking what the problem was.

[GO-TRIBE]

This article fails to point out that HP is doing exactly what the author is asking for (and has been for 4 years now)! iPaqs (save the 1910) have used the same jackets and shared almost all accessories for the past 4 years (36x, 37x, 38x, 39x, and 54x). The author of this article also fails to point out that when you upgrade to a new laptop you may have many of the same driver issues. The problem here is with Sierra, their driver must have been doing things that were not supported by the PC Card specification, or they just wrote the driver really poorly so that it would only work with a certain iPaq hardware revision (i.e. not following best practices).

The article also speaks, in some ways, to Microsoft's insistence to stick to the ARM 4 standard for PPC and not make PPC's incompatible with each other or Intel specific. I've been saying all along that Microsoft is not at fault because of Xscale speed problems, they're doing the proper thing and Intel needs to stick to the standard (instead of trying to make PPCs Intel only hardware)

[Skoobouy]

I have to admit, as often as I've complained about the seeming pointlessness of sleeves, I'm intrigued by how well they've given Berlind what he was looking for.

I'm quite happy that I've been able to use Stowaways for the Jornada series ever since they first came out. Compact Flash is another standard I would hate to see go, but after the iPaq 1910 and the announced SDIO fix, I'm afraid that it's in the cards.

My prediction is that, eventually, SD will displace CF; Bluetooth will displace IR (further down the road), and that these two will be the only technologies that will work in common for all PPCs and their peripherals. This will be the situation for three years, and then be disrupted by something new.

[PetiteFlower]

It's not AS bad at least now for people just getting their first machines; I feel relatively safe in buying SD and CF cards feeling that they will be compatible with devices I buy in the future. It would be wonderful to have USB to connect accessories with though. I don't understand this "guest to guest" thing though, do you mean that you can't have USB output(for the sync cable) and input (for accessories) on the same device? Even if they were different physical ports? That doesn't make sense to me; but that could just be because I don't know the details of how USB works :) I could understand not being able to use the same physical port for input and output over USB though.

Anyway I think the manufacturers would make up for lost margins in numbers of happy customers if they made cross-compatible devices, at least in their own line. If I go and spend $100 on the Dell keyboard, and then find out that the next generation of Axims won't be compatible with it, I'll be PISSED!

I recently upgraded my cellphone to a newer model in the same line, the TP 1100 to the LG 5350(yes they are actually the same company). When I bought the phone, I wanted to make sure that my car charger would work with my new phone, so I compared the connectors on the bottom of the phone. They were exactly the same. So, happily, I bought the new phone. I even plugged it into the car charger just to make sure it would fit; it did. So, a few weeks go by and I find myself with a low battery away from home, and I plug into the charger. Strangely enough, after driving around for a while, the battery isn't any higher! I check and I don't see any kind of "charging" message on the phone. So even though the connectors are the same and the accessory fits, it doesn't &$*%ing work! Am I ever buying another phone from this company? Hell no! Am I going spend $30 on a new charger from Sprint? Hell no, I'm going to get one for $3 off ebay! Has Sprint or LG gained anything from this situation? What do you think?

[Janak Parekh]

iPaqs (save the 1910) have used the same jackets and shared almost all accessories for the past 4 years (36x, 37x, 38x, 39x, and 54x).
Jackets, yes. Accessories, no. Compaq changed the connector substantially when they introduced the 38xx units.

I don't understand this "guest to guest" thing though, do you mean that you can't have USB output(for the sync cable) and input (for accessories) on the same device?
It has nothing to do with the physical port types (be they A-type or B-type / male or female genders) - it's an electrical thing. USB requires a "master"-type device, like a desktop or laptop, to control the communication, so you can't, for example, hook up an iPaq and a digital camera together unless one is a USB host. Rumor has it Intel initially did this so that USB wouldn't ever take the desktop/laptop out of the equation.

--janak

[claud9999]

I have a e740 and will probably stick with the Toshiba's. My wife just broke her palm and I was thinking about getting a e335 for her. Then I could swipe her cradle and we could use mine to sync at home and I could use hers at work! ;) I have bought a USB dongle and a USB to Serial Adapter. If I get a keyboard, it will likely be a USB Minivik rather than the belkin one. Why? COMPATABILITY! I can use the USB one with either a desktop, my PDA or my laptop. If I get a new PDA, if it does not have USB host abilities, I will buy the CF to USB card. Then I should be able to use it. I think they need to standardize connectors. Make the cradle have a USB B type end. Either the large USB B or the mini USB B and make them also include a USB host port along the bottom (NO DONGLE NEEDED PLEASE!). Sure, this may not be possible for very thing PDA's, but my e740 should definitely have been able to just put the damn USB port on the bottom. There's plenty of room. I would even do without some of the hardware buttons or a different button arangement just to have this. Also, Bluetooth may make this a moot point too. Just if the use only Bluetooth for syncing, give us a USB port....PLEASE? :)

The Toshiba PPC's have USB host capabilities? Didn't know dat. I currently have a Cassiopeia E-200 which also has host capability and I've connected USB keyboards to it...Only (major!) problem is that the enter key (the usual one on the main keyboard) doesn't act like the enter key in the on-screen keyboard. For example, in Notes, it closes the current note. Totally unusable. Dunno if this is a problem with the Toshiba PDA's (if it's not, I may have to upgrade...How's the buttons for playing games?)

Regarding USB, I wonder if there's enough power on a standard USB connection to charge a PPC? That would get rid of another connection/transformer.

[Janak Parekh]

Regarding USB, I wonder if there's enough power on a standard USB connection to charge a PPC? That would get rid of another connection/transformer.
In theory, yes, but not uniformly across all PCs. The iPaq 5450 has full built-in USB charging support. Cables exist for other PPCs, but the results are varied.

--janak

[st63z]

OT:

http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/1587611

NEWCARD spec for both mobiles and desktops. From PCMCIA, USB-IF, PCI-SIG.

[GO-TRIBE]

iPaqs (save the 1910) have used the same jackets and shared almost all accessories for the past 4 years (36x, 37x, 38x, 39x, and 54x).
Jackets, yes. Accessories, no. Compaq changed the connector substantially when they introduced the 38xx units.
True, they did change the SYNC connector. However many fewer iPaq accessories use the sync connector, v. say a Palm, because additional functionality can be added via jacket, CF, or PC cards.
Compaq committed that 3 generations of iPaqs would be compatible with the jackets (eXpansion packs), and there is where your most expensive accessories are (i.e. GPS Jacket, Wireless Jacket, Scanner Jacket, etc)