Toshiba May Bid Laptop Batteries Goodbye (Which is Good News for Pocket PCs Too!)

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,109673,tk,dn030503X,00.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.pcworld.com/news/article...n030503X,00.asp</a><br /><br /></div>"Toshiba has developed a prototype direct methanol fuel cell that it says will end the need for re-chargeable batteries on portable PCs. The new fuel cell has an average output of 12 watts and a maximum output of 20 watts, and gives about 5 hours of operation with 50 milliliters of fuel, Toshiba said in a statement Wednesday. It runs on replaceable methanol cartridges, Toshiba said. <br /><br />Methanol in a fuel cell delivers power most efficiently when it is mixed with water in a 3 percent to 6 percent concentration. To date, this has made the fuel tank too large for portable equipment, Toshiba said. However, the new cell includes a system whereby the methanol is diluted by water produced in the power generation process. This process allows the methanol be stored at a higher concentration, allowing the fuel tank to shrink to a tenth of the size previously needed, the company said."<br /><br />We've been hearing about fuel cells for over two years now, but it looks like they're finally becoming a reality next year. Toshiba has created prototypes, and expects to be shipping fuel cell batteries in 2004. What I found particularly interesting was this quote from the article:<br /><br />"The PC communicates with the fuel cell, giving information on its operating status, so that the fuel cell can balance power demand and supply. Sensors in the cell monitor methanol concentration and tell users when to change the cartridge, Toshiba said. The fuel cell can be directly connected to a PC or other portable device in place of a lithium-ion battery, Toshiba said. Two cartridge sizes have been developed: a 4.2 ounce, 100 milliliter (3.4 fluid ounces) cartridge offering 10 hours of operating time, and a 2.5 ounce, 50 milliliter (1.7 fluid ounces) version giving 5 hours of operation. The fuel cell itself weighs just about two pounds, Toshiba said."<br /><br />I was under the impression that laptops and devices with removable batteries would need to be redesigned from scratch in order to take advantage of fuel cell technology, but the above leads me to believe that if an manufacturer wanted do, they could develop fuel cells in the same physical dimensions as current batteries. This is fantastic news - because even if the OEMs don't want to do the work, there are likely third-party battery makers who will step up and create fuel cell solutions. I'm typing this sitting on a couch with my laptop in my lap, and I'd give anything to have battery technology that didn't threaten to burn my legs with direct contact. :lol:

[dean_shan]

Didn't we just talk about this? (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87751)

[eternalblue]

so, would a fuel cell like this be cost effective? i mean to say would the cost of a replacement cell(s) (especially over time) have a huge impact on the total cost of ownership?

as hot as batteries might get, (well at least the one in my laptop) i don't necessarily find myself having to spend money to replace/replenish/recharge the power source.

[toshtoshtosh]

Hmm... Does this mean you have to change batteries every 5 or 10 hours? Doesn't make much sense over rechargeable batteries now does it? Or does it have a little 'gas' tank which you open and fill in methanol with? :)

I was originally under the impression that for equal size a fuel cell would offer 10 times the battery life of regular batteries, in which case replacing them every so often (couple of weeks) wouldn't be as big of a deal.

Someone clear this up for me please!

[daS]

One big problem I see with this is that laptops are often used by professionals that travel. How can these liquid filled fuel cells be taken on airplanes? Did they think this through? :roll:

While fuel cell technology holds a lot of promise, I don't think that this is the right application for it.

[vincentsiaw]

man the fuel cell is still heavy, hope they make it lighter, but sure heavy fuel cell is till better than no fule cell :P

[jizmo]

Uhh.. So that's the way fuel cells work then, eh? By replacing it from time to time. If this is the case, then normal replaceable batteries make more sense to me..

For another thing; I once saw an old programme on tv where they placed a little drop of pure methanol on a shaved spot on rats back and it soon dropped dead. I wouldn't feel comfortable holding such beverage on my lap, even if it was packed properly 8O

/jizmo

[bjornkeizers]

For another thing; I once saw an old programme on tv where they placed a little drop of pure methanol on a shaved spot on rats back and it soon dropped dead. I wouldn't feel comfortable holding such beverage on my lap, even if it was packed properly 8O

/jizmo

*cringes and curls up into a ball* Indeed, I hear you my man.

If it works how it was described here, it's just like normal batteries. Even worse, if you only get 10 hours out of a cartridge, that's less then what I get with normal AAA rechargeables! And I don't need to buy another set every two days or so.

And besides the whole aspect of liquids and PPC's.. let alone fuel that might be dangerous, explosive, corrosive, whatever.. Nah, I'll pass.

[Rok]

For another thing; I once saw an old programme on tv where they placed a little drop of pure methanol on a shaved spot on rats back and it soon dropped dead. I wouldn't feel comfortable holding such beverage on my lap, even if it was packed properly 8O

Yes, methanol is toxic, bot not nearly as much as you fear. It takes about 15 millilitres (ingested) to kill an adult (that's almost a cubic inch of liquid, for all metrically-challenged readers :lol: ). And the antidote is - believe it or not - ordinary alcohol (= ethanol). And human skin is quite impermeable to liquids, even alcohols (so you would literally have to drink the contents of the cartridge to get poisoned). I could elaborate if you wish, but there's probably no need for that. The bottomline is: have no fear. It's not so bad at all.

On the other hand, I see no major improvement for us in this news. So I'll have to carry a spare container or two filled with methanol solution to refill the battery? Not bloody likely I would. Unless they figure the way to power a PDA for 30 hours on an ink refill-size cartridge (like AAA size), I'm not sold.

Regards,
Rok

[DrtyBlvd]

I'm sure they've 'thought it through' - but, a la 'Dell Disaster' recently reported ("Exploding" on someones lap?) I'd be far happier without Methanol in my Lap as well! :lol:

[jizmo]

I'm sure they've 'thought it through' - but, a la 'Dell Disaster' recently reported ("Exploding" on someones lap?) I'd be far happier without Methanol in my Lap as well! :lol:

Seems to me that I have to start wearing a cup while using my PPC or laptop :lol:

/jizmo

[R K]

From reading the article, it seems like they're saying that they finally got the fuel cell tech to be laptop size. I don't think they'll reach Pocket PC size for some time longer.
It would make sense anyway, since ten hours of use on a laptop is very good for many batteries. Ten hours on a Pocket PC has already been done. A lot of modern Pocket PCs can get a good 6.5 - 8 hours of usage with the backlight on an adequate level.

[ux4484]

the 5 to 10 hours would be for a laptop cell, It may take some time to reduce to a PDA sized battery. But hey, any step forward is a good thing, considering Battery tech is the most slowly advancing technology of all.

On refilling, some of the stuff I've read indicates that you'd refill the cell with a cartridge or canister......ala a butane lighter. This makes exposure to methanol a more *touchy* subject, as methanol on your leg is one thing, but on your fingers (after every 5-10 hours of use) is another all together. You'll have to keep your charging cartrige locked up with your bullets.

[dgallina]

5-10 hours? That just doesn't sound that great IMHO. In the short-term I think I'd just as soon recharge batteries. At least they can be re-used and I don't have to constantly change / throw away cartridges.

[Will T Smith]

The laptop is the natural "killer app" for the fuel cell (space vehicles aside).

The bay sizes are perfect for replacing existing battery components. One potential issue is proper ventalation. A fuel cell has water as a by-product, hot water. The efficient way to get rid of this would be to simply release it as steam. In this way, it would help to cool the laptop. Storing it in another capsul would have the opposite effect. A "Cool Pad http://www.coolpad.com" (which is a good idea anyway*) type accessory may be required in conjunction to the fuel cell to allow the fuel cell to ventilate properly.

I would caution them however, to make the fuel cell charge an on-board lithium ion battery that CAN be recharged also via an outlet.

In that way plugging in can serve MOST of a users needs. The methonal cartridges could be used on extended trips (not airline flights because power is already available) like in field work.

Another really good application would be a portable 12V Car type plug that ran on methanol cells. Such a device would not be limited by form-factor and work with ANY device. One would use a car style plug (or the newer 45V style plugs that are forthcoming) to accomodate the vast numbers of adapters that are already available.

Also possible are larger scale power generators that run on large methanol cells instead of gasoline/diesel. They would have standard AC power plugs.

Like others, I doubt that the PDA will see fuel cells for some years. The major reason is that the device is already VERY energy efficient. Most users don't run out of power during their daily use cyle. Users that are away from power for extended times could simply plug into a general purpose fuel cell device that I described earlier.

OK, one more killer app for fuel cells ... You've seen those space age "heater/cooler center consoles" for your car. Well, their extremely efficient and run of the 12V power source in your vehicle. Well, say goodbye to your ice. Just plug in a methonal cell and set the temperature and voila cool beer soda, anything you want. Likewise with those stinky refrigerated trucks that burn diesel. Fuel cells are more efficient than diesel as diesel is more effiecient than gasoline. The truck can drive on diesel but refrigerate using Methanol.

*I've stuck a cool pad to the bottom of my notebook using industrial velcro. This way it's always cool and always swivels nicely when necessary.

[Jonathan1]

I know next to nothing about fuel cells. I would really need to know how “green” these things are before I start loading up on fuel cells. What is the result of spent fuel? Is it toxic? Can’t imagine its that bad since its alcohol. Can a fuel cell be recycled like a typical battery? :?:

[Marcel_Proust]

Why not use good old Etoh instead? On planes, a spot of gin in a pinch would do. And our pocketpcs would also double as lovely hip flasks.

[paulv]

I'm sure I'm missing something in this whole deal. Why do we need fuel cells? especially 2 pound ones?

My trusty Dell laptop does about 3-4 hours on one battery or 6-8 on two, and I'm able to recharge them whenever I want at no up-front cost. If I travelled a lot I'd buy another battery or two and I'd have 16 hours available.

Unless the Fuel cartridges become amazingly cheap then I just don't get it. As mentioned earlier, a bunch of AAA's would quite likely be cheaper. If they work out how to repackage regular batteries in Rectangles instead of cylinders then you'd get a bit of punch out of a laptop sized battery.

This looks like a solution looking for a problem to me. Fuel cell technology makes massive sense in automobiles as you are already using a fuel technology. There's no real difference to the user. Computer users however are using a stored energy system and so the concept of using a fuel (and somehow getting rid of the hot steam) is simply alien.

Also - If I was a greenie I'd be asking about whether the cost (energy and pollution) of producing the cartridges is higher than burning fuels to produce electricity at power stations. Stored electricity seems more efficient to me.

I note also that this 2 pound device is only good for 12-20W. That's not enough for you average laptop unless using very low power processors. I seem to remember that the bigger Dells need something like 40-50W.

[Solarix]

Eh? This is dumb. Sure you might get more time out of your laptop, but its really pointless. All I use in all my devices are rechargable batteries. Either the Renewal Alkalines (Remotes & Small Appliances) or NiMH for some of my more draining devices (CD & HDD MP3 Player). This would only add to the need to buy more batteries. Granted I don't have a laptop, but if I did, I would just buy an extra battery and a Car Adaptor. I mean come on people? Why go back to an old way of doing things when recharging make so much more sence.

You wanna get me excited? Make me a fuel cell battery that recharges itself. Similar to the same way those portable Oil Radiator's never run out of oil, it just keeps recycling it whitin itself. Then I would be jumping up and down.

[Unreal32]

I think I'm gonna hook my PPC up to a car battery... it only weighs about 15 pounds, and gives much more than 10 hours life. 2 pounds, 15 pounds... after you get past ounces, what difference does weight make anyway? :roll:

[shindullin]

I wouldn't worry about the battery blowing up or anything. They should be safe by the time they sell them on a large scale. Remember the burning laptop recall for mac laptops a few weeks after they pioneered the use of lithium ion batteries? Eventually, that was fixed and now everyone uses the battery technology. They only real by product from this technology is super hot water, but I can't think that the constant moisture would be good for your computer. Might make your skin really soft, but wouldn't it potentially corrode you're system? Seems like this technology is better fitted for cars. I'd much prefer water coming out of the tailpipe than soot and CO2, and apparently, it really far more efficient than current unleaded gas engines. At the same time, I'd prefer if nothing, especially not not water or steam coming out of my laptop as I'm typing away on it.

[Jonathon Watkins]

What is the result of spent fuel?

H2O and CO2

Is it toxic?

Very, one will drown you, the other will suffocate you!!!!!!1 :scatter:

Can’t imagine its that bad since its alcohol.

Quite. :beer:

[BitBandit]

:lol:

I think most of you are missing the point of this technology. The fuel cell itself has a very long life. It should be good for several years of vigorous use.

Methanol is a a cheap, natural, and renewable resource. It'll come prepackaged in a little tube-like container that will simply slide into the fuel cell. No muss, no fuss, no bother. I'm sure that like inkjet cartridges there will be those on a quest to fill their own, but that's not the general plan. Also, the cartridges do not contain 100% methanol. It is somewhat dilluted with water, as that is also a key ingredient to the energy conversion process as well as a byproduct of the process.

As long as you have more fuel, you can continue to run the fuel cell. There's no wait to recharge or need to find a power outlet, EVER, if you so choose. While the initial run times aren't leaps and bounds ahead of some of the better batteries currently available, there is no hibernate the PC, swap the battery, and restart required. You can have 10 hours of uninterrupted use. Plus, if they're designed right, you'll be able to swap the methanol cartridge while it continues to run, avoiding any shutdowns.

So, instead of using your battery for a year or two and then discarding it--properly, as it is toxic waste--you simply purchase a renewable (from plant matter) fuel and run and run and run! It's only gonna get better from here! Though it will be a while before they're small enough for PPC use.