CEO Candid on Sony's Future in PDA Space, And Yeah, They Want PalmSource [Archive]

Ed Hansberry

03-04-2003, 09:00 PM

<a href="http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=246_0_2_0_C">http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=246_0_2_0_C</a> AlwaysOn interviewed the Chairman and CEO of Sony Corporation at the World Economic Forum recently. It is an interview charged with bold statements on Sony's view of the handheld space. One of those statements was about PalmSource. Perkins: You would buy Palm’s software business? Idei: Yes, if they want to sell. If they want to sell? Not sure they will have a choice. Despite PalmOS's commanding lead in handheld volume, their financial performance leaves a lot to be desired. For a while now, people have been speculating that Sony will just snap up PalmSource and leave PalmSG to wither away, including Jason in his "<a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,2721">Sony will buy Palm</a>" thought late last summer. He also thinks Nokia is missing the boat on what the real opportunity is for the mobile handset business. This is part one of a three part interview. Parts two and three are to be published later this week. Perhaps in one of those Mr. Idei will confess Sony is giving up the Memory Stick and embracing an open memory card standard. :? So, after reading this and Jason's prediction, what do you think?

pocketpcdude1024

03-04-2003, 09:24 PM

Yes, Sony will indeed own Palm, probably sooner than later. Sony has put put what, 20 models in a year? Palm hasn't put out that many ever! Sony is really putting themselves in the hands of PalmSource, someplace it doesn't like to be with its innate controlling nature (think LabelGate). Anyway, it would be truly funny as, like the vote jokingly predicts, Microsoft buys Sony after Sony buys PalmSource... 8)

bdegroodt

03-04-2003, 09:31 PM

Just what you want as an ailing company- Your biggest partner declaring your death bed made and ready for your inevitable departure.

Paragon

03-04-2003, 09:45 PM

So it begins.......:)
Sony buying Palm will be a good thing for everyone concerned, I think.

Aside for the Palm issues he talked about, I really liked what he had to say about the music industry. He is a very powerful, and influential man, let's hope he can get the music industry heading down the path that he seems to think will work. That is to embrace the internet!....sorry changing topic.

Dave

Janak Parekh

03-04-2003, 09:50 PM

I love this juicy quote from the Sony CEO:

Three years ago the Palm was so simple, but it is getting better and better.

:lol:

--janak

Jonathan1

03-04-2003, 10:02 PM

God this is nuts. I love the Pocket PC format but I want the Palm OS to have a long and prosperous future. The day Sony owns Palm is going to be a nightmare for all PDA users both in the Pocket PC camp and the Palm camp. Sony is one of those companies that is totally unpredictable and that makes them dangerous wheeling a company like Palmsource and Peanutpress.

Ed you still have me scared pissless with your comment about Palm owning Peanutpress. They are so gung-ho about DRM they very well could do some major alterations to that company. 8O :?

As for Palmsource. Someone mentioned they may turn them into the Apple of the PDA world. What a freaking nightmare if that happened. The Pocket PC camp NEEDS strong competition because without it the Pocket PC OS WILL become stagnant. That and the fact that having choices is a good thing.

Paragon

03-04-2003, 10:35 PM

You're self medicating again Jonathan! You make it sound like Sony has weapons of mass destuction. :roll:

Dave

Gremmie

03-04-2003, 10:35 PM

PalmSource is going public before years end, probably during the fall. I don't think Sony will buy enough of PalmSource to technically own it, but Sony may raise a fair amount of cash for PalmSource.

carphead

03-04-2003, 10:52 PM

One of the good things about palm is there doesn't appear to be a really restrictive license conditions. Think of it as Windows CE rather than Pocket PC.

The good thing about this is that it brings in innovations that you don't see in the pocketpc format. One of the problems I see with PPC is that it doesn't really innovate more evolves. For example the 36xx series was a really ground breaking piece of kit but the 54xx what really does it have that the 36xx didn't? BT, WLAN, Memory, Screen, biometrics. What else? Nothing that really makes you think amazing does it?

Now the Sony NV that's cool! I'd kill for a PPC version of that!!!

Once Sony buys Palm I guess we'll either see Linux or CE take the innovation to the next stage.

Ed Hansberry

03-04-2003, 11:10 PM

Ed you still have me scared pissless with your comment about Palm owning Peanutpress.
So much so you are confused about who will own what. :wink:

I know Jonathan... I get night-sweats dreaming that future PeanutPress books will only work on Sony Magic Gate memory sticks. 8O :shocked!: :pukeface:

bdegroodt

03-04-2003, 11:30 PM

As for Palmsource. Someone mentioned they may turn them into the Apple of the PDA world. What a freaking nightmare if that happened. The Pocket PC camp NEEDS strong competition because without it the Pocket PC OS WILL become stagnant. That and the fact that having choices is a good thing.

Say what whoever orignally said this may, but if not for Apple then who in the PC market? Apple innovates, MSFT incorporates. Need I bring up the Newton? How about BT equipped laptops? How about GUI to the mass market? :D

Steven Cedrone

03-04-2003, 11:42 PM

Say what whoever orignally said this may, but if not for Apple then who in the PC market? Apple innovates, MSFT incorporates. Need I bring up the Newton? How about BT equipped laptops? How about GUI to the mass market? :D

While I know this will be a Palm vs. Pocket PC thread, let's not turn it into a MAC vs. PC thread as well... :wink:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cedrones/macpcwar.gif

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

Jonathan1

03-04-2003, 11:45 PM

Say what whoever orignally said this may, but if not for Apple then who in the PC market? Apple innovates, MSFT incorporates. Need I bring up the Newton? How about BT equipped laptops? How about GUI to the mass market? :D

I think that whoever mentioned that was speaking with the intent that the Palm and Palmsource will eventually become a niche market with very specialized hardware. Something Sony excels at. Also look at the available software for Apple. Its nothing in comparison to the PC.

There is no certainty at this point but it is a legit concern

bdegroodt

03-04-2003, 11:47 PM

Say what whoever orignally said this may, but if not for Apple then who in the PC market? Apple innovates, MSFT incorporates. Need I bring up the Newton? How about BT equipped laptops? How about GUI to the mass market? :D

I think that whoever mentioned that was speaking with the intent that the Palm and Palmsource will eventually become a niche market with very specialized hardware. Something Sony excels at. Also look at the available software for Apple. Its nothing in comparison to the PC.

There is no certainty at this point but it is a legit concern

I'll honor Steve's wishes and let this one go...Just remember Jonathan, size doesn't always matter...usually it's how you use what you have :P

Paragon

03-04-2003, 11:47 PM

I get night-sweats dreaming that future PeanutPress books will only work on Sony Magic Gate memory sticks.

It's very hard to predict the future accurately, but I doubt very much that if Sony were to buy PalmSource they would drop PPC support from Peanut Press. The logic that people would not by Pocket PCs because of it, and buy Palms instead I think is very flawed. I doubt anyone would not buy a Pocket PC because of lack of Peanut Press support (and I'm a huge supporter of Peanut Press). However, they would loose the total sales from Pocket Pc users. Not that that is a huge deal to Sony's coffers, but even so.....

Dave

Jonathan1

03-05-2003, 12:17 AM

You're self medicating again Jonathan! You make it sound like Sony has weapons of mass destuction. :roll:

Dave

You say that as if it’s a bad thing?!?! ;)
They may not have nukes but they have the weapons available to kill the Palm market. (Its called bad management and we all know how uncommon that is in big business. :roll: Then again it can't be any worse then how the execs at Palmsource are currently driving it into the ground.

The real question is what would Sony do with Palm? That is the question that needs to be answered which obviously can’t be at this point. AFAIK Sony has never been heavily involved in the software side of PC\PDA’s (Does anyone have info to the contrary?) Managing an OS company would be an entirely new game for Sony.

Roosterman

03-05-2003, 12:25 AM

This should drive the nail in to the Palm coffin. Sony seems to get on board something and rides it to the death (think Beta, Minidisk, memory stick, ... :) )

Foo Fighter

03-05-2003, 12:38 AM

How about GUI to the mass market? :D

You mean Xerox? Yeah, they did wonderful things. :P :wink:

Jonathan1

03-05-2003, 12:39 AM

Guys I REALLY wasn't trying to get this into an Apple vs PC thing. It was a very light comparison.

gfunkmagic

03-05-2003, 01:22 AM

What the hell would be the point of PalmSorce splitting from PalmSG and then being bought by Sony? Whole point of Palm's split was to insure licensees of the neutrality of Palmsource vis a vis PalmSG and to encourage more OEM's to sign on with the platform. Just like Idei said when answering whether they would buy PalmSource, "Yes, if they want to sell." I highly doubt PalmSource would want to sell especially in the near term...

shindullin

03-05-2003, 01:31 AM

Even if palmsource doesn't sell, Sony could wield proprietor-like influence by buying a large chunk of stock should it go IP in order to raise money. Almost the same thing.

Cracknell

03-05-2003, 01:39 AM

Wow, I am not sure if anybody understand the magnitude of this statement. (it's roughly 250M and the entire future of Palm OS. )

1. Once Palmsource is acquired by Sony, Palm Inc's worth nothing.
2. If Palm Inc won't sell palm source Sony is going ready to play rough, they will fill up every lucrative niche with Sony models and starve Palm inc from their revenue. If you think Microsoft is monopolistic bad boy, wait until Sony starts throwing around their weight globally. I'll give them 16 months to kill Palm Inc. They won the discman and console game war, PDA war will be a stroll in the park for them.
3.Who is the biggest owner of Palm Inc stock? They will be the one to watch since they will decide the Palmsource end game. But I dont' think Wall street will look kindly on Palm Inc if they mess with Sony.

gfunkmagic

03-05-2003, 01:54 AM

1. Once Palmsource is acquired by Sony, Palm Inc's worth nothing.

Why are you guys presuming this to be a fact already? This is pure conjecture based on an answer to a hypothetical question. Just b/c there is a poll that says this will happen doesn't make it reality.

On the other hand, what I find it really interesting that that Idei seems to be hedging his bets with Symbian stating that he is not totally sold on its future. Also, he seems to be saying that Sony may consider developing a PalmOS smartphone which would be a good idea IMO. i never realy understood why they didn't do so all along...

bdegroodt

03-05-2003, 02:05 AM

How about GUI to the mass market? :D

You mean Xerox? Yeah, they did wonderful things. :P :wink:

Mass market?

Cracknell

03-05-2003, 02:20 AM

1. Once Palmsource is acquired by Sony, Palm Inc's worth nothing.

Why are you guys presuming this to be a fact already? This is pure conjecture based on an answer to a hypothetical question. Just b/c there is a poll that says this will happen doesn't make it reality.

...
the fact that you as a loyal Palm Inc customer is not amused and felt threatened should say a lot.

Palm Inc does not have the engineering know how and capital resource to compete against Sony. Sony is the best of global consumer electronic maker bar none.

Sony can churn out 12-15 new models of PDA a year, while the best Palm Inc can do so far is 5-6. By the time Palm Inc can match TG50v feature, Sony would have probably combined aibo with their Clie. lol

gfunkmagic

03-05-2003, 02:42 AM

the fact that you as a loyal Palm Inc customer is not amused and felt threatened should say a lot.

First of all I am not a Palm Inc customer FYI... I do currently own a PalmOS dpa but not from PalmSG. Secondly, I am neither amused or threatened by this rumor, rather I find it quixotically humorous that PPC fanboys like you find it necessary to forstall the doom of the PalmOS to justify and soothe the obvious inferiority complex you have towards your own platform. Why else would put a anti-palmOS story on the front page of a PPC site? This doesn't happen on other sites... :roll: Ya'll need to ge a life...

Secondly, nor do I hate the PPC platform, as some of you may presume. I just don't equate my self worth and persoanlity to the techy gadgets I use as some people here evidently do, and thus deride others who choose differently...

Cracknell

03-05-2003, 03:18 AM

Do explain your scenario where Palm Inc can thrive if Sony would to acquire Palmsource.

I would not say it's the the end of POS if Sony acquires PSG, in fact I think POS would have much brighter future in consumer electronic space than currently possible. But it certainly is the end of Palm Inc. No investor in their right mind will bet their money on Palm Inc.

I would definitely short PALM.

SmooveB

03-05-2003, 03:20 AM

I am a tortured soul in that I love Clie's but hate the limitations of the Palm OS, but I also hate how my ipaq 3765 for all of its processing power and ram slows down when I use up half of the system memory. There are great things to love on both platforms but each suffers from a lack of innovation that Sony seems to be unaware of.

I think Sony buying out Palm is a great idea. Sony has been the spiritual leader in the Palm OS camp since 2001 and under their direction Palm OS machines would really begin to compete in terms of OS flexibility.

Timothy Rapson

03-05-2003, 03:24 AM

Timothy Rapson

03-05-2003, 03:27 AM

Janak Parekh

03-05-2003, 03:31 AM

I do see some items like this, but they are fairly balanced (at least as balanced as anyone could hope for from a dedicated PPC site, and maybe moreso.
Quite frankly, I was waiting for Ed to say "I told you so". ;) IMHO, this is a balanced post that, as previous posters said, is alarming both Palm and Pocket PC fans, for different reasons. I think it's certainly worth watching what Sony says about Palm -- it's very relevant in this market.

BTW, let's all play nice now and tone down the "threatened (Palm|Pocket PC) fanboys" attitude... thanks. :)

--janak

TawnerX

03-05-2003, 03:31 AM

. As you note it is only some of the folk here who are bothered by the Palm OS users hanging out here. I don't get why they do that either.

Ah life.

Timothy "don't want battle royale" Rapson,

what is your opinion regarding Sony interest to acquire PSG?

Foo Fighter

03-05-2003, 03:51 AM

I'll take "Collosal mistakes" for 100, Alex. 8O

While there is no doubt Sony would revolutionize PalmOS and bring forth many inspired innovations, they would likewise drive the platform into the ground. Sony is a master of consumer electronics design, but they generally don't play well with others, and have a nasty tendency of doing things their own way (hmm..who does that sound like?). I can guarantee one of Sony's first acts, up taking receivership of PalmSource, would be to kill OS licensing. Palm would be shopping for a new OS by day two. Hey there's the rub! Maybe they'll license Pocket PC.

Sony has the resources...the vision...and the chuzpah to radically change PalmOS for the better...and for the worse. Fear the reaper.

Will T Smith

03-05-2003, 03:56 AM

Sony really has an obligation to make sure that Palm Source stay's afloat as it has based an entire product line on their technology. I have no doubt that sony will try to increase it's investment in order to ensure that the platform continues to move THEIR direction.

As far as Palm going "Sony Proprietary". I don't think that's in Sony's best interest. If it was, they would have started shipping "Sony OS" PCs quite a while ago. The acceptance of a platform is partially based upon use and availability across the entire market.

The lesson with BetaMax was well learned. Sony now licenses their technologies and participates in standards groups. BTW, they are the only company that has straddled the current DVD debate offering a drive that burns both +DVD and -DVD.

I'm fairly confident that Sony would be content to leverage STRONG control over what is essentially becoming a commercialized standards/implementation group ... that is Palm Source. Consuming PalmSource wholesale would likely drive vendors away from PalmOS which would ultimately be damaging to Sony's Clie line of products.

Cracknell

03-05-2003, 04:01 AM

With current Palm Inc's market cap of a tad under 300M, and hearing Sony's complain how PSG is ripping them off with the OS license. Probably they should just launch a hostile take over.

In one sweep they got the POS, and later can divest the remaining asset to the highest bidder. ~200M in cash and BeOS IP? not a bad preposition, I bet the entire adventure would cost less than 1-200M to pull after the dust settles.

I might even be profitable in the short run for Sony if they can spin off PSG after owning the POS, stop paying license.

wow, this is very sinister.

just to counter point Betamax example.
Sony controls the very popular MD format in Japan, ATRAC and don't forget the PS2.

Foo Fighter

03-05-2003, 04:02 AM

Consuming PalmSource wholesale would likely drive vendors away from PalmOS which would ultimately be damaging to Sony's Clie line of products.

Absolutely. And this is why I doubt Sony will buy PalmSource. This would kill the Goose that laid the golden egg. My guess is they will pump more resources into PalmSource and increase their influence over OS development. That would be the wisest course of action.

Ed Hansberry

03-05-2003, 04:27 AM

Just like Idei said when answering whether they would buy PalmSource, "Yes, if they want to sell." I highly doubt PalmSource would want to sell especially in the near term...
When you are publicly traded, your shareholders decide who sells, not the management. In Palm Inc.'s case, that was/is 3COM. They are the big shareholder and have avoided selling since the IPO to avoid the 24 month tax penalty. That is over. If 3COM thinks they will get more money from Sony than Wall Street from splitting out PalmSource, that is most likely what will happen. If PalmSource goes public and is traded on Wall Street, then Sony offers a nice sum of money, public shareholders will decide, just as they decided whether or not Compaq would be purchased by HP last year.

PalmSource won't have the clout, meaning private funding or a poison pill option with backing of bankers, to fend off a hostile offer if Sony, or anyone else, chooses to do so.

gfunkmagic

03-05-2003, 06:07 AM

I don't know how much time you spend at PPCThoughts. I am here everyday. I do see some items like this, but they are fairly balanced (at least as balanced as anyone could hope for from a dedicated PPC site, and maybe moreso. My own opinion, of course.)

Timothy,

Thanx for the comments. I visit ppcts b/c I actually like he site and find it informative regardless if I disagree with the editorials or not. I think that should be a testament to the admin here considering this is coming from someone who prefers the opposing camp... In addition I wouldn't want to make a blanket statment regarding all posters here b/c that would be a stereotype.

gfunkmagic

03-05-2003, 06:22 AM

While there is no doubt Sony would revolutionize PalmOS and bring forth many inspired innovations, they would likewise drive the platform into the ground. Sony is a master of consumer electronics design, but they generally don't play well with others, and have a nasty tendency of doing things their own way (hmm..who does that sound like?). I can guarantee one of Sony's first acts, up taking receivership of PalmSource, would be to kill OS licensing. Palm would be shopping for a new OS by day two. Hey there's the rub! Maybe they'll license Pocket PC.

That is exactly what I was trying to say before. Obviously, Sony, has the financial where withall to absorb PalmSource. The problem is that this would not be good for the PalmOS, and thus secondarily negative to PalmSG, Sony, etc. For PalmOS to flourish it must remain a hardware neutral player thus not seemingly obligated to one particular OEM over another. It was widely known that previously Palm licensees had misgivings interacting with the software division b/c of perceived weaknesses and conflicts of interest. The splitting of the company was deemed the solution to enable the OS division to grow w/o these misgivings and suspicions while allowing PalmSG to fully concentrate on hardware. Sony acquiring PalmSource would negate all these advantages which would ultimately be bad for the entire platform including Sony.

Of course, this does not mean Sony and other OEM's will not invest in PalmSource. Sony has already invested $20 million and may do so again. Thus there is also the possibility of modelling OEM's investment into PalmSource similarly to the way the Symbian consortuim is organized. I think this would be a much better strategy for PalmSource in the long run. Such an arrangement would allow OEM's greater say and investment into the OS while providing PalmSource the financial and business alliances to counter the threats from M$ and Symbian et al. Any thoughts?

gfunkmagic

03-05-2003, 06:25 AM

When you are publicly traded, your shareholders decide who sells, not the management. In Palm Inc.'s case, that was/is 3COM. They are the big shareholder and have avoided selling since the IPO to avoid the 24 month tax penalty. That is over. If 3COM thinks they will get more money from Sony than Wall Street from splitting out PalmSource, that is most likely what will happen.

Well if thats the case, why doesn't M$ just buy PalmSource! :grab: :angel:

dean_shan

03-05-2003, 06:35 AM

I don't know if Sony owning Palm OS is a good or a bad thing. It won't realy effect me too much unless they change Peanut Press. Sony makes good stuff and I think they would do a good job if they owned PalmOS.

Cracknell

03-05-2003, 06:52 AM

Well if thats the case, why doesn't M$ just buy PalmSource!

that would be because of FTC, antitrust law.
Of course Microsoft can always do acquisition by proxy, but I don't think MSFT is that sort of company.

Also, I don't believing in PSG should be neutral is a more profitable road for share holder. It might be a good wish to POS end user for spurring competition in Palm OS world, but I doubt shareholder care too much about that aside from making the biggest ROI. Enterprise is afterall about making money, not advancing experiment in computer science.

octop8

03-05-2003, 06:59 AM

Anyway, it would be truly funny as, like the vote jokingly predicts, Microsoft buys Sony after Sony buys PalmSource... 8)

Microsoft couldn't afford and wouldn't be allowed to buy Sony....

gfunkmagic

03-05-2003, 07:29 AM

that would be because of FCC, antitrust law.
Of course Microsoft can always do acquisition by proxy, but I don't think MSFT is that sort of company.

Umm... that was sarcasm fyi :scrambleup:

blackout

03-05-2003, 07:46 AM

y'all are probably gonna come down pretty hard on me for this, especially since i don't post here often so you don't really know me from adam...

it seems that jason, i believe it was jason?, took nobuyuki's statement out of context and y'all have been running with it for 40 posts or so. before mr. perkins asks " You would buy Palm?s software business?", mr. idei says:

And I can?t tell you why Sony has a Symbian OS on its phones and Palm OS on its PDAs. [Laughs] Even Bill Gates asked me if I was crazy. But this is our history. I really want to own either Symbian or Palm?I want to buy them. Three years ago the Palm was so simple, but it is getting better and better. My problem now is that as Palm licensee we have to pay them lots of money.

when asked about the joint venture with ericsson (Sony Ericsson Mobile Communications), he has this to say:

Sony made the joint venture with Ericsson because we want to be covered by their IP patent umbrella, otherwise we have to pay nearly 15 percent to the GSM license holder. I wouldn?t have been able to stand that.

for a company that creates so many @^$%*! proprietary formats, AND THEN LICENSES THEM, these guys are cheapskates. this isn't about the death of palm because they haven't been producing as much as sony, or about sony killing off the competition. this is about sony wondering whether it's just cheaper to buy companies then pay for licenses.

oh and if you think idei actually *likes* PDAs, while he does say palm os is getting better and better, he also says:

Palm is strong where the mobile phone is weak. So Palm?s big market is in America. We can?t sell Palm in Japan, because cell phones there are much faster and more capable [than in America].

so basically buff cell phones, like sony ericssons t610 or msft smartphones could eliminate sony's play in the pda market if they are adopted reasonably quickly here.

Cracknell

03-05-2003, 08:41 AM

Hey Sakamon is back at Apple, new opportunity indeed! So I guess he really did jump boat, makes me really think how severe the problem at Palm is.

http://news.com.com/2100-1041-991061.html?tag=lh

mm, wonder if it's time of the year to speculate about Apple's PDA strategy again.

Timothy Rapson

03-05-2003, 01:31 PM

Timothy "don't want battle royale" Rapson,

Yes, actually, I don't like the OS war battles and don't start them. I have joined more of them than is probably good for my mental health, but I don't start them.

what is your opinion regarding Sony interest to acquire PSG?

I would prefer Sony not buy PalmSource, but just supply them with cash and be there to give PalmSource gravitas. One of Palms biggest problems in fighting MS in the marketplace is not just that their product lacks many of the features of PPC, but that practically no one has ever beaten MS in a product area that MS has targeted. A big investment by Sony would reasure those who work at Palm that they will have jobs through market downturns. Symbian is 6-12 months behind delivering the best phone OS because MS hired away 8 of their best programmers 18 months ago when the company was struggling to make payroll.

Sony also has experience in Games, Video, Content, Music, and just about every area of consumer electronics. They know what customers want, how to create buzz, how to do hardware right, and generally how to balance their profit and the customers value satisfaction.

That said, I hope Sony does not buy PalmSource outright. I am so mad over the memory stink lie that I may never buy another Sony product. They were barely a more ethical company that MS in my view. I suppose I am just a dumb, idealistic, consumer who doesn't like buying from companies that lie to me and cheat to defeat their competitors, but there you have it.

carphead

03-05-2003, 01:53 PM

Symbian is 6-12 months behind delivering the best phone OS .

Hmm.... Symbian is the best Phone OS hands down. No questions asked. Smartphone is rubish compared to Symbian.

Ed Hansberry

03-05-2003, 02:57 PM

Janak Parekh

03-05-2003, 04:56 PM

this isn't about the death of palm because they haven't been producing as much as sony, or about sony killing off the competition. this is about sony wondering whether it's just cheaper to buy companies then pay for licenses.
Oh, absolutely. We're just discussing the ramifications of Sony buying out Palm. They are so heavily invested in Palm OS at this point that it is precisely the cheaper cost that is motivating them to buy it out. Having full control is another reason which they'd probably not mention.

so basically buff cell phones, like sony ericssons t610 or msft smartphones could eliminate sony's play in the pda market if they are adopted reasonably quickly here.
No. Japanese cell phones are a few miles ahead of the SE T610 or Smartphone 2002 right now. That's a different beast entirely.

--janak

carphead

03-06-2003, 09:30 AM

Symbian is 6-12 months behind delivering the best phone OS .

Hmm.... Symbian is the best Phone OS hands down. No questions asked. Smartphone is rubish compared to Symbian.
Really? I've only used the P800 and having a touch screen for a phone with a stylus is overkill. either get a PDA with a decent screen or get a nice one handed UI in place. Does Symbian have other UIs that don't require a stylus to be functional?

The really cool thing about Symbian is that the UI is down to the phone maker. I have a Nokia 7650 which is joystick driven. I looked at the P800 and like you didn't want the touch screen. But the Series 60 (Nokia) is one of the best UI I've used on a phone.

There is no lockdown option (not in Symbian's OS) so I can load what I want to (and do :D ). Take a look at this website...

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/

For all the latest news.

Regards,
Daniel

Ed Hansberry

03-06-2003, 01:31 PM

The really cool thing about Symbian is that the UI is down to the phone maker.
Don't you think that is going to hurt the 3rd parth market? How easy is it going to be to write a Symbian app that works with a myriad of UIs? I've already had some developers tell me it is a bit of a mess.

carphead

03-06-2003, 02:57 PM

Whilst the different UI's change so do the control methods for each device. The UI is cusotimsed but at the same time the program method doesn't change between the Series 60 (Nokia) and the UIQ (SEG P800).

It's like building a APP for WINCE and then porting it across to PPC 2002.

The GUI is different but the underlying API's aren't that different.

Most of the Psion/Symbian crowd port there apps to both playforms. I guess longer term there will be two or threee GUI for Symbian. Series 60 will be used for non-touch screens and UIQ for touch screen models.

When I purchased the 7650 I really only wanted a phone which allowed me to customize it as much as I wanted to. I didn't want a PPC replacement because I don't use the calender/scheduler as I've got a IPAQ for that. Games are my main thing and so the 7650 was a better option.

fishd

03-06-2003, 03:42 PM

having a touch screen for a phone with a stylus is overkill. either get a PDA with a decent screen or get a nice one handed UI in place.

Where does this leave the XDA and the like? :?:

Does Symbian have other UIs that don't require a stylus to be functional?

As already stated the Nokia 7650 and 3650 use Series 60, which is Symbian OS6 with a really cool one handed interface, I was amazed how easy to use my pals 7650 was! There is also Series 80 which is present on the Nokia Communicator, a device that Nokia has commited to keeping alive, and recently UIQ which runs on top of Symbian OS7...

But it kinda fits (sort of, not really, but for the sake of arguement) with MS... there is/was two different sorts of interfaces to WindowsCE ... there is PocketPC and HPC ... to me this kinda maps nicely to UIQ and Series 80... but sneaks Series60 in as a low-end UI...

Kinda like Series 60 is 75% phone / 25% PDA
UIQ is 30% phone / 70% PDA and
Series 80 is 10% phone / 90% PDA...

Horses for courses I guess but my P800 is the device I've been waiting for for the last oooh, 5 years? 8) Only real problem is... why did they have to cripple it with Memory Stick DUO ??? :evil:

carphead

03-06-2003, 04:01 PM

Kinda like Series 60 is 75% phone / 25% PDA
UIQ is 30% phone / 70% PDA and
Series 80 is 10% phone / 90% PDA...

Spot on.

Horses for courses I guess but my P800 is the device I've been waiting for for the last oooh, 5 years? 8) Only real problem is... why did they have to cripple it with Memory Stick DUO ??? :evil:

Because it's Sony! Doubt I'll ever buy a SEG again...

First I had a R520 - Which reset three times a day. Then I had a t68i which locked up every four hours.

Ed Hansberry

03-06-2003, 05:03 PM

having a touch screen for a phone with a stylus is overkill. either get a PDA with a decent screen or get a nice one handed UI in place.

Where does this leave the XDA and the like? :?:
As a great data centric device that does a good job of integrating voice.

The issue is requiring a stylus for a voice centric device, which has been a big issue with all PalmOS based phones to date and why I would never consider the P800. It is too small to be a great data device but the stylus requirement and touchscreen just doesn't work well with a voice device.

Carphead - on the APIs - yeah, they are the same, but that means little. You have to program to different devices when it is on a touchscreen vs non-touchscreen device. Can you imagine all the differences that would have to be done to an app like Pocket Informant for touch-screen and non-touchscreen devices? Other apps like Pocket Mindmap wouldn't even work on a non-touchscreen device.

IMHO, saying a device runs SYMBIAN is not like saying it runs PalmOS or Pocket PC. The latter two are pretty standard (excluding what Sony has done to PalmOS - and that is causing problems with some apps) so developers only have to write one app. That is why partially why MS went with a new OS for Smartphones. Cramming Pocket PC on a Smartphone with tweaks turns into a development nightmare. The core code is the same as are the APIs, but the UI specs are different so develeopers know what they are targeting. Having broad UI specs like those of Symbian will hamper its growth. It is almost like there is no UI standard.

Janak Parekh

03-06-2003, 05:13 PM

The issue is requiring a stylus for a voice centric device, which has been a big issue with all PalmOS based phones to date and why I would never consider the P800. It is too small to be a great data device but the stylus requirement and touchscreen just doesn't work well with a voice device.
I don't know about that - with the jog dial and the keypad, you don't need to touch the stylus for any voice operation on the P800. I think SE has positioned the P800 as being a bit more voice than data (as opposed to the PPCPE, which is more data than voice). While time will tell, initial feedback I've read on cell phone forums have been very positive on the P800's compromise. (Doesn't matter to me, b/c I'm hate Memory Sticks...)

BTW, I have to say that a touch screen is not a killer for voice applications: I can do quite a number of operations without touching the screen on a PPCPE. The only thing I lack is "blind dialing".

--janak

Ed Hansberry

03-06-2003, 06:49 PM

The issue is requiring a stylus for a voice centric device, which has been a big issue with all PalmOS based phones to date and why I would never consider the P800. It is too small to be a great data device but the stylus requirement and touchscreen just doesn't work well with a voice device.
I don't know about that - with the jog dial and the keypad, you don't need to touch the stylus for any voice operation on the P800.
No, but you do to look up an appointment or update a contact.

I guess the issue is, are you 90% voice, 10% data, 80/20, 50/50, etc. I think that sweet spot will be 80/20 and the Smartphone OS is great there. The P800 is closer to 65/35 or so. The problem is, at 80/20, the Smartphone is a great voice even for those that are 100/0. I think at 70/30 and lower, the data starts to impact the voice side.

Of course, very voice centric people probably wouldn't bother with a P800 anyway, but I don't see data centric doing it either, which begs the question, just how many middle-of-the-roaders are there?

03-09-2003, 03:34 PM

the fact that you as a loyal Palm Inc customer is not amused and felt threatened should say a lot.

Why else would put a anti-palmOS story on the front page of a PPC site? This doesn't happen on other sites... :roll: Ya'll need to ge a life...

Secondly, nor do I hate the PPC platform, as some of you may presume. I just don't equate my self worth and persoanlity to the techy gadgets I use as some people here evidently do, and thus deride others who choose differently...

Gfunkmagic;

I know you from Brighthand and like you.

I don't know how much time you spend at PPCThoughts. I am here everyday. I do see some items like this, but they are fairly balanced (at least as balanced as anyone could hope for from a dedicated PPC site, and maybe moreso. My own opinion, of course.)

I have seen lots of comments from PPC owners who like Sonys, really like Sonys. If I had a buck for every time I have heard someone here say they wished Sony made PPC hardware, I could buy a new NZ!

A lot depends on how you take it. Once in a while it all gets carried away. As you note it is only some of the folk here who are bothered by the Palm OS users hanging out here. I don't get why they do that either.

Ah life.

Just to follow up on your point Timothy, I'm a Palm user (I don't own a PPC right now) and I must say I have never felt unwelcome at this site.

I glance at the various POS sites but since there is never a great deal of Palm news, PPCT is a better community to be part of.

For a while, I've been looking for a replacement for my trusty Palm Vx and I'm still not sure if it is going to be a Palm OS or PPC. If Sony allowed the use of memory other than their MS format I would have a Clie by now.

To get on track for this thread, my thinking is that Sony aquiring PalmSource defeats the reason for Palmsource being set up in the first place, as an independant operating system maker not under the control of any one licensee. Obviously real world financial considerations might well turn out to make this unrealistic.

As others have mentioned in the thread, competition drives inovation, so I think it is in the interests of all of use, PPC and POS users to have a minimum of two operating systems fighting for our business.