Another Chance For More DRM Control

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-985600.html">http://news.com.com/2100-1001-985600.html</a><br /><br />This in an interesting article on the BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) of your PC and how it may be replaced by a new system, an OS called EFI, or Extensible Firmware Interface. I would assume this technology will also make its way into the Pocket PC and Smartphone as well. It looks like a good idea, or did until I got to this paragraph.<br /><br />"Because EFI has its own filing system that lives on a reserved part of the hard disk, it can become the standard home for a whole set of utilities that have always had an awkward fit with the BIOS. Digital rights management and security designers also have an interest in EFI because it gives them a new level of control over the hardware."<br /><br />A whole new level of control over the hardware. The hardware <b><i>I</i></b> purchased! :evil: At some point, someone will figure out how to tie digital media to an owner and not to a device. That technology I'll willingly buy. That way I can read <i><b>my</b></i> ebooks, listen to <i><b>my</b></i> music and watch <i><b>my</b></i> movies on any device I choose. To be honest, this article doesn't exactly contradict that premise, but that is really giving the media industry way too much credit. If they had their way, anything we watched, read or listened to would be wiped from the synapses of our minds making us eager to pay for the privilege of experiencing it again. I am sure someone is already working on that type of technology. :roll: Probably Sony.

[Jonathan1]

*sighs* Why is it that everyone wants to control what I do with _MY_ computer.
If I want to rip music its my own dang business.
If I want to hack the DOD so be it.
If I want to smash someone over the head with it and kill then so be it but in each case I would expect consequences following my actions. Repeat following not prior to my actions. I always thought it was innocent until proven guilty. It applies to our justice system should it not be applied to RDM as well?

[sponge]

EFI is overall a good thing. If people wanted, they could code a custom BIOS with DRM features, so it's not like it's impossible to do before EFI. EFI has a lot of cool uses, it isn't just putting in DRM.

[seanturner]

EFI is overall a good thing. If people wanted, they could code a custom BIOS with DRM features, so it's not like it's impossible to do before EFI. EFI has a lot of cool uses, it isn't just putting in DRM.

Yes, but, do those other features outweight DRM? In my opinion, no.

[Weyoun6]

Also use My software on whichever computer I want to. This stuff already happend in the software world. Now they are just applying it to other forms of media.

I have a real problem with other people being able to control my computer in any way. Last time I checked, we still had some privacy rights in the 10th amendment (sorry non-us people).[/i]

[Marc Zimmermann]

Ed, as much as I enjoy your rants about DRM/Reader and as much as I don't like DRM either... do you have any first-hand experience with how Reader DRM really works?

I've had zero problems in getting my activation quota raised a few times after bumping into the limit due to using a new device or formatting my hard disk. Apart from the automatic new activation that you're being granted after 180 days, you can always get one earlier for the aforementioned reasons. It's a terribly painless procedure.

Of course, I know that DRM overall sucks. But the way that it is being handled by Microsoft is truly tolerable and I figure that most real-world consumers will ever run into the 4-device limit.

[Jonathan1]

Ed, as much as I enjoy your rants about DRM/Reader and as much as I don't like DRM either... do you have any first-hand experience with how Reader DRM really works?

I've had zero problems in getting my activation quota raised a few times after bumping into the limit due to using a new device or formatting my hard disk. Apart from the automatic new activation that you're being granted after 180 days, you can always get one earlier for the aforementioned reasons. It's a terribly painless procedure.

Of course, I know that DRM overall sucks. But the way that it is being handled by Microsoft is truly tolerable and I figure that most real-world consumers will ever run into the 4-device limit.

Mark the point is that you shouldn't NEED to ask for more. Its reminiscent of asking mom and dad for the keys to the car. I grew out of that a LONG time ago. This is why I love Peanut Press and the Palm Reader. Its still DRM but its DRM done right. No need to ask ma and pa for the keys. Microsoft's method is very much draconian in comparison to Palm Reader. Where is this going?
My point is that you can do DRM. People can generally accept a form of DRM as long as it isn’t intrusive to the point of hampering how you use the products YOU purchase. Everything Microsoft, Intel, the RIAA, the MPAA have thrown at us in the last few years is far from nonintrusive. It’s the total opposite. It’s the heavy handed approach to DRM and something most hate with a burning passion. :twisted:

[Jonathan1]

I've been reading this article over and over again. A couple concerns.
Maybe I'm off but it sounds like the majority of EFI will reside on the actual hard drive in software form. Am I the only one that thinks this is a REALLY bad idea?!?! Compaq did this with their earlier deskpro desktops – Load a portion of the BIOS on the hard drive. It was such a serious pain in the *** when you wanted to redo a system. You had to make sure that you didn't overwrite the portion of the drive dedicated to the BIOS. Or had to make sure you included it in your image.

Also it sounds as if this EFI is going to be C+ based instead of machine language. Ummm I was under the impression that the closer you code to the metal the faster the code is?!!? Why would you use C+ instead of assembly language? Other then the obvious ease of use.

Then there is also the possibility of virual corruption or just plain hard drive corruption as well. Obviously the article doesn't have ALL the info on this new system but the rough sketch its outlining makes me nervous.

It mentions all kinds of problems techs have with BIOS and incompatibilities. HUH? In my time as a computer tech, admittedly not all that long but long enough to get some experience under my belt, the only time I’ve had incompatibilities with BIOS is when MS releases a new OS. I’ve never had a video card, audio card, etc or some other device go south on me because of incompatible BIOS. Anyone out there have this problem on a regular basis?
It almost sounds like a trumped up excuse to release this new system. Oops conspiracy theorist in me just turned on! ;)
Begin theory creation....please wait........processing.......begin output....

This is Intel based idea. What's from keeping them from making this a copyrighted item that only works on Intel machines? (Example: Slot one design for their CPU) If one was to try and use AMD chips along with their mainboard they would be SOL.

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed, as much as I enjoy your rants about DRM/Reader and as much as I don't like DRM either... do you have any first-hand experience with how Reader DRM really works?

I've had zero problems in getting my activation quota raised a few times after bumping into the limit due to using a new device or formatting my hard disk. Apart from the automatic new activation that you're being granted after 180 days, you can always get one earlier for the aforementioned reasons. It's a terribly painless procedure.
No. Palm Digital Media is painless. Enter your name and your credit card number you used to purchase the book. I've purchased ebooks from Palm with my iPAQ and downloaded and read them right on the spot. I've even downloaded the Palm Reader, used Resco File Explorer to get the CAB file out of the self extracting ZIP file and updated the reader.

MS reader requires activation. You have to be at your desktop to activate and Passport sucks. You often have to purge all of your cookies if you have other Passport sites you use. When you get a new device, you have to go through the hassle of activation again on the new device. Yes, I've had to do it and no, I'll not do it again. It is a royal PITA and it makes you feel like you are on parole. "Please Mr. ebook seller. Let me read my book. I promise to be good."

I'm glad you've had no problems Marc. Let me know how it goes for you when you are on the road and get a new device or go through a hard reset and you don't have your laptop with you. Doubtful you'll be reading any ebooks with that Pocket PC until you get home. I, on the on the other hand, have absolutely no doubts I will get Palm's reader up and running and redownload the book I was reading.

[Paragon]

Orwell should be alive today to rewrite his book with two new thoughts in mind....computers as we now know them, and DRM. "Unspeak" I think would take on a whole new meaning.

Dave

[Marc Zimmermann]

No. Palm Digital Media is painless. Enter your name and your credit card number you used to purchase the book.
I've gone through a whole array of card numbers in the past two years and this would have been a nightmare for me to track which books were bought with which card.

MS reader requires activation. You have to be at your desktop to activate and Passport sucks. You often have to purge all of your cookies if you have other Passport sites you use.
This activation is usually not required mobile. While on the go and being forced to do a hard reset (which in itself is a very rare thing), a backup should restore the activation as well.

You seem to have a terrible Passport experience. Ever since it was introduced, I only encountered a minor issue last week. Otherwise, it is a seemingly working technology for me. There's always a vocal minority that makes it seem like something is awfully broken. With this in mind, I'd like to put things into perspective when reading about Passport issues in our private MVP newsgroups last week. It's not like 90% of MVPs had problems with it.

When you get a new device, you have to go through the hassle of activation again on the new device. Yes, I've had to do it and no, I'll not do it again. It is a royal PITA and it makes you feel like you are on parole. "Please Mr. ebook seller. Let me read my book. I promise to be good."
Who did you have to ask this? You fill a form with your name and email address plus a few words why you need another activation that you fire off to Microsoft. I just entered "I replaced an old Jornada 565 with a Dell Axim Pocket PC" and that was it.

I'm glad you've had no problems Marc. Let me know how it goes for you when you are on the road and get a new device or go through a hard reset and you don't have your laptop with you. Doubtful you'll be reading any ebooks with that Pocket PC until you get home.
I'm going to make the backup/restore test later today.

[Janak Parekh]

Fundamentally, EFI is a good thing.

If you've used any other platforms, like Sun Sparcs or DEC Alphas, you'll notice they have a very powerful PROM/ARC Loader/Firmware. You can do all sorts of things like look at the hard drive, see if the boot sector is there, boot from various devices including network-based TFTP, etc. You've basically got a miniature OS that you can do useful debugging from. You can even use them as a bootloader if you have multiple OS's.

The PC platform has had a broken, weak BIOS technology for far too long. It's time to scrap it. And as others point out, this is somewhat tangential to DRM. If PC manufacturers wanted to, they could integrate DRM into BIOSes, and in fact companies like Phoenix have been working on that already.

By the way, the whole Reader debate is slightly off-topic... I doubt we'll see MS Passport in EFI. Well, I hope not. While it works fine on all my Pocket PCs, tying that in at a hardware level is highly undesirable.

--janak

[sponge]

Exactly Janak. You cain integrate DRM to just about anything you want, just because you can in EFI doesn't make it any worse. From the user's point of view, you also get keyboard and mouse control inside EFI, hi-resolution, full colour, and an entire array of OS-independant tools, with the possibility to add more.

I can see a few people porting sometlhing like MAME to EFI, for an arcade setup, basically an embedded system. Perhaps it won't be as I describe, but there are so many useful features, and to put it down because of DRM (keeping in mind they can put DRM in just about everything) is just holding back technology.

[Paragon]

I've gone through a whole array of card numbers in the past two years and this would have been a nightmare for me to track which books were bought with which card.

Marc, in case you aren't aware with Peanut Press you can change the credit card number that you have assocciated with any of your books to a currently used card if you like. I would hate to see you using an inferior reader because of it. :wink: :D

Dave

[Merlion]

Although I think that DRM is important, I will never accept it if it is tied up to either the hardware or software (OSes) on machines. Like some of you guys have brought up, Peanut Press & Palm Reader's implementation of DRM is acceptable.

If DRM is tied to hardware or esp. software, my quota might have to be over 100 for each yr for the rest of my life.

[Jonathan1]

No. Palm Digital Media is painless. Enter your name and your credit card number you used to purchase the book.
I've gone through a whole array of card numbers in the past two years and this would have been a nightmare for me to track which books were bought with which card.



Not really. All your books are stored in a "library" on www.peanutpress.com 's site. Whenever you get a new CC you just enter it and update your previous books. What I do is keep a directory entitled the activation number of the e-books. Whenever I get a new card I update the site and then download the new set of e-books (Peanut press conveniently zips all your e-books into one easy download so its not like you have to download 1, then another, then another, then another, etc. But how often do most go through CC changes? CC’s expire what? Once every 2-3 years. That’s a fair amount of time between downloads. Unpleasant yes, but not as unpleasant as having to e-mail MS and ask for more activation attempts and either wait for a response or call them up (Is it toll free?) And possibly be put in a waiting que. In this instance I'm not contacting the company at all. I'm in charge. I'm in control. I don't have to contact anyone if I don't want to. And let’s say Palm Reader went away for some bizarre reason. Since I can store these files in a zipped file on my archive hard drive I know that even if the company goes under I will always have access to my e-books. Can the same be said if MS changes how Reader actives or decides to ditch the MS reader format altogether?

Unlikely? Yes. But not out of the realm of possibilities. When you have to "ask dad for the keys" you need to keep these possibilities in mind.

[Jonathan1]

Sorry Paragon. Didn't see your post before I sent mine :D

[Paragon]

Sorry Paragon. Didn't see your post before I sent mine :D

That's ok, I think your explanation was a little more detailed than mine was anyway. Mine was funnier though :)

Dave

[Ed Hansberry]

No. Palm Digital Media is painless. Enter your name and your credit card number you used to purchase the book.
I've gone through a whole array of card numbers in the past two years and this would have been a nightmare for me to track which books were bought with which card.
Again, the beauty of Palm Digital Media. You buy with a new card and tell them so (simple check box I think) and all of the books in your library are recompiled with the new card hash.

You seem to have a terrible Passport experience.
Yup. For some reason, I have had to purge all cookies because of passport 3 times in the past 2 years. Major PITA to reenter all of those userIDs and logins I keep in cookies.

When you get a new device, you have to go through the hassle of activation again on the new device. Yes, I've had to do it and no, I'll not do it again. It is a royal PITA and it makes you feel like you are on parole. "Please Mr. ebook seller. Let me read my book. I promise to be good."
Who did you have to ask this? You fill a form with your name and email address plus a few words why you need another activation that you fire off to Microsoft. I just entered "I replaced an old Jornada 565 with a Dell Axim Pocket PC" and that was it.
I do nothing. You had to fill out a form which essentially said "Please Mr. ebook seller. Let me read my book. I promise to be good." Then you had to wait for them to switch it for you. Even if they fix it in 15 minutes, that is unacceptable.

I'm glad you've had no problems Marc. Let me know how it goes for you when you are on the road and get a new device or go through a hard reset and you don't have your laptop with you. Doubtful you'll be reading any ebooks with that Pocket PC until you get home.
I'm going to make the backup/restore test later today.
This goes beyond ebooks and DRM5. Put your DRM audio files on an MP3 card and then try to listen to it on another device. I seem to remember a conversation you were involved in a few years ago and couldn't demonstrate the particular problem you were having with some MP3 or WMA files. Fall of 2000 I believe. Why couldn't you demonstrate it? Because the files were DRM encrypted.

It is about who the rights belong to, and it isn't my device, despite how many DRM schemes seem to work.

[Paragon]

You know, this whole DRM issue is very comparable to "Guns don't kill people, people do!" Well computers don't steal digital media, people do. Piracy WILL fade to an exceptable level when a FAIR method is found. The harder they try to control it the more "rights" the innocent loose. The more rights the innocent loose, the more likely they are to push back. I'm very willing to have fair methods in place, but when they start interfering with what I can legally do, or morally should be able to do, I get upset. If this kind of thing continues eventually we are going to be like China where piracy runs wild. Only the differnce will be that we will all be "Mad as hell, and not take it any more."

Dave

[Marc Zimmermann]

Put your DRM audio files on an MP3 card and then try to listen to it on another device.
No problem. A storage card with WMA DRM files can be used in any CE 3.0 based device, even a Handheld PC 2000. The Media Player for the CE 2.11 based Palm-size PC couldn't play the files, but otherwise the files are apparently tied to the card, not the device.

I seem to remember a conversation you were involved in a few years ago and couldn't demonstrate the particular problem you were having with some MP3 or WMA files. Fall of 2000 I believe. Why couldn't you demonstrate it? Because the files were DRM encrypted.
Actually, the card had become corrupted. It had nothing to do with DRM. The fact that Media Player hung due to the corruption caused me more anger than DRM... ;-)

It is about who the rights belong to, and it isn't my device, despite how many DRM schemes seem to work.
I'm with you in disliking DRM and copy protection. However, I don't agree with you with regard to the Microsoft implementations. These schemes seem to be more of a problem for the power users that we are rather than they affect the majority of users. Overall, while I'd prefer to not have to use them, I am finding them tolerable.

The reason for me not using Palm Reader is (a) the Palm logo upon startup ;-) and (b) I much prefer Reader's look and feel.

[acronym]

I'm staying clear of the drm posts but this:

"Because EFI has its own filing system that lives on a reserved part of the hard disk, "

is already done on apple hardware.

[seanturner]

I'm staying clear of the drm posts but this:
"Because EFI has its own filing system that lives on a reserved part of the hard disk, "
is already done on apple hardware.

I'll add that to the list of reasons why I don't buy apple hardware...

[Marc Zimmermann]

I'm glad you've had no problems Marc. Let me know how it goes for you when you are on the road and get a new device or go through a hard reset and you don't have your laptop with you. Doubtful you'll be reading any ebooks with that Pocket PC until you get home.
I'm going to make the backup/restore test later today.
The activation is restored with the CF backup.

[Mike Wagstaff]

The activation is restored with the CF backup.Is there a technical reason why the activation state couldn't be stored in a device's Flash ROM? That way, it could survive a hard-reset.

To get back on-topic, I think that any DRM solution that penalises users to the extent that it is even mildly annoying is destined to fail as it will invite hackers to find a solution to bypass it.

[acronym]

I'm staying clear of the drm posts but this:
"Because EFI has its own filing system that lives on a reserved part of the hard disk, "
is already done on apple hardware.

I'll add that to the list of reasons why I don't buy apple hardware...

what? because they thought outside the limitations of a rom bios and decided it would be better to load from a easily rewritable track on the hard drive? :roll:

[seanturner]

what? because they thought outside the limitations of a rom bios and decided it would be better to load from a easily rewritable track on the hard drive? :roll:

What about when I want to upgrade my harddrive, like I did on my PC laptop a month ago?

[Weyoun6]

The reason for me not using Palm Reader is (a) the Palm logo upon startup ;-)

You can remove that :)

I really think that you should not have to ask anyone to use your own books. I have had to ask MS for more activations after I reformatted my harddrive. I reformat my computer once a year. Plus my pocket pc crashes about twice a year.

How may times must I ask for added activations, before they get sick of me, and tell me to go away? Palm lets me put my books wherever I want.

[bspline]

I wasn't going to post here, but Amazon drove me to it...

Well, I was looking around for some of Neil Gaiman's books at amazon, when I stumbled at this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-keywords=neverwhere&search-type=ss&bq=1/002-2836703-3427212

Can anyone believe the price difference? That made me wonder why is M$ pushing DRM5 so hard... profit margins are out of the astronomical...

Anyway, I think a viable solution to DRM, which ties the content to the person and not to the hardware is biometrics. HP is one step ahead in this direction with the 54xx series, and I think it can be even easier if people think speech patterns have signatures on their own...

Anyway, I really don't think this is unknown to most companies, they choose to ignore it on behalf of their own interests.

[acronym]

I'd say that was a misprint. did you read the editorial reviews?

Unless Neverware is "Instant help for managing Microsoft Exchange Server 5.5. At last there's a no-nonsense, task-oriented, administrator- level guide to supporting Exchange Server 5.5, with full client and server coverage!"