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View Full Version : Wifi and or Bluetooth on an Airplane?


rooks308
02-09-2003, 05:43 AM
I was just thinking.... With the restrictions on cell phone useage on an airplane, what if any restrictions exist now, or should exist to using wifi or bluetooth on an airplane. Now I know some may jump up and say... "why the hell would you need wifi on a plane?" Example, You and an aquantance are sharing files via WIfi on an airplane cause you are too far away from each other to use IR. etc.. etc.... Any ideas, I don't want to be a hazard in the air :lol:

vincentsiaw
02-09-2003, 06:01 AM
interesting question, make me wondering as well :roll:

kfluet
02-09-2003, 06:09 AM
As I recall (does anybody actually listen to the pre-flight safety presentation after the n-teenth time?), they almost always say something to the affect that anything that has radio needs to be turned off through the whole flight...

Of course, I am sure that lots and lots of people who have WiFi enabled laptops don't even know how to turn WiFi off while on a plane and that means there is probably WiFi on during most flights that carry business passengers.

Now the confusing thing is that companies (Boeing Connexion and Tenzing--see article (http://www.thestandard.com/article/0,1902,27120,00.html)) are testing in-flight high-speed broadband access. I would have to assume that they are sure that the radio frequencies they are using definitely won't interfere with the plane.

Anybody know if Boeing or Tenzing are using WiFi?

Kati Compton
02-09-2003, 06:24 AM
I would tend to assume as well that the frequencies that they'd use for broadband would be non-interfering. They have those inflight phones that are apparently okay to use, but that has a much slower transmission rate.... But those don't seem to interfere.

seanturner
02-09-2003, 06:31 AM
I would tend to assume as well that the frequencies that they'd use for broadband would be non-interfering. They have those inflight phones that are apparently okay to use, but that has a much slower transmission rate.... But those don't seem to interfere.

There was actually a post here that talked about this and one ex pilot said it would really screw stuff up.

On the contrary, however, I swapped some 15MB source code files with a friend of mine a few rows back via 802.11b on a plane once and I'm still here to post about it...

hiroProtagonist
02-09-2003, 08:27 AM
I was just thinking.... With the restrictions on cell phone useage on an airplane, what if any restrictions exist now, or should exist to using wifi or bluetooth on an airplane...

Yeah, the same regulation that restricts the use of cell phones, also restricts wifi, bluetooth, or even the PocketPC all together (you know how they want you to turn off everything for takeoff/landing)

ok, here it is: :wink:

{bracketed text added by me}

§ 91.21 Portable electronic devices.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate {commercial flights}; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR. {commercial flights}
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to -
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or {and here's the open door...}
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

As to wether your PPC poses a real threat to commercial aviation, I dunno. I imagine that the systems are pretty well sheilded 'cause it's hard to keep an eye on everyone on a flight and I bet there's some clandestine cell phone use going on.

The two things you could interfere with would be navigation signals, and internal systems. Navigation signals range from 190 khz for old non directional beacons, up though 1.2-1.5 GHz used by GPS (these gps numbers could be wrong, you'd think that sort of info would be EASILY accessible on the web...) and it looks like 802.11b and bluetooth use 2.4GHz or there abouts (again, not my area of expertise) You'll have to get someone with more electronics knowledge to analyze that stuff if you care, but at least it looks like wifi and bt don't directly use nav frequencies. I'd be most concerned on landing, especially in bad weather, where the pilots can't actually see the runway and are totally reliant on instruments.

As for interfereing with aircraft systems, I have no idea, (see knowledgable person request above) but it would be bad if it did (you know auto pilots and stuff...)

There's a guy around here (Busdriver) who by his name and Avatar (I think it's an Airbus, some BIG plane) seems to be an airline pilot. I wonder if he has any comments on this.


Now, after having confused the issue.....later, josh

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
02-09-2003, 10:56 AM
On the contrary, however, I swapped some 15MB source code files with a friend of mine a few rows back via 802.11b on a plane once and I'm still here to post about it...
:rofl:

Nice experiment. It sure didn't sound like you and your friend were all that concerned to begin with, eh?

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
02-09-2003, 10:58 AM
Now the confusing thing is that companies (Boeing Connexion and Tenzing--see article (http://www.thestandard.com/article/0,1902,27120,00.html)) are testing in-flight high-speed broadband access. I would have to assume that they are sure that the radio frequencies they are using definitely won't interfere with the plane.

Anybody know if Boeing or Tenzing are using WiFi?
I recently read in article while in Europe stating that Lufthansa was to experiment with WiFi as well. I haven't seen it myself, despite flying Lufthansa for most of my trans-Atlantic trips.

FredMurphy
02-09-2003, 12:16 PM
I have heard that the real reason mobile phones are banned on aircraft is the effect that having phones switch between cells at aircraft speeds (over cities) might have on the TelCo's networks. No idea how much truth is in this.

To be honest I don't think a plane would (or at least SHOULD) be allowed to fly if a cell phone could cause it to crash. Not that it's an excuse to use one when you're asked not to.

TopDog
02-09-2003, 01:25 PM
I recently read in article while in Europe stating that Lufthansa was to experiment with WiFi as well. I haven't seen it myself, despite flying Lufthansa for most of my trans-Atlantic trips.
Here it is: http://www.computerworld.com/mobiletopics/mobile/story/0,10801,77600,00.html?f=x010

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
02-09-2003, 03:13 PM
I recently read in article while in Europe stating that Lufthansa was to experiment with WiFi as well. I haven't seen it myself, despite flying Lufthansa for most of my trans-Atlantic trips.
Here it is: http://www.computerworld.com/mobiletopics/mobile/story/0,10801,77600,00.html?f=x010
Ah. That was the one. Thanks.

Ugh. Washington... that flight has always been available to me, but since I fly to Los Angeles, that would mean I have to claim my baggage and go through customs in Washington, then recheck my bags, go back through security and check back into my final connecting flight.

I guess I won't be testing that WiFi!!

felixdd
02-09-2003, 04:59 PM
I wonder what happens if someone fires up a GPS on their PPC in-flight....

sgyee
02-09-2003, 05:19 PM
I wonder what happens if someone fires up a GPS on their PPC in-flight....

Unless you can prove that you are a pilot while in mid-flight (read, you show your FAA paperwork right there and then), you get promptly dumped into security's hands after landing.

Someone did that next to me a few weeks back. He luckily was a commercial pilot and was showing me his Garmin GPSMAP 196, and how it helps him log stuff for him. The Flight Attendant got all angry until the co-pilot came back and told her that he showed both of them his FAA credentials, and leave him alone.

If it was PPC based, they probably wouldn't know the difference.

I do have another funny story to tell. About 7 years ago, I was riding on an American Airlines flight in First Class, when a person one row ahead of me brings out his laptop, fires it up, and immediately, the plane starts doing wacky things. Pilot gets onto the allcall, says we are experiencing unknown equipment issues, and have all passengers stow things away. Guy in front of me shuts down the laptop, puts it away, and the plane stops doing wierd things.

We travel about 1/2 hour, the pilot gets back on saying things are OK, guy in front pulls out his laptop, powers it on, and the blasted plane starts yawing from side to side again.

Co-Pilot comes back, looks at what electronics are on, and has each passenger turn theirs off one by one. When it comes to the guy in front with the laptop, the yawing problem goes away. Co-Pilot asks the guy to shut the laptop off for the duration of the flight, and the person in front of me agrees.

We land, and there's a horde of American Airlines mechanics and two guys in suits waiting for us at the gate. A few days later, I run into the co-pilot of that same flight. I asked him about what went on after the plane landed.

The co-pilot said that American Airlines and Boeing bought the laptop and all the electronic gear off of the guy, got all his passwords and everything else (keeping the laptop exactly the same condition), and they took the plane offline for service. American Airlines and Boeing spent 2 days trying to duplicate the problem....but it wouldn't show up again.

Busdriver
02-09-2003, 05:55 PM
Ok, I'll comment on this. But I'm afraid I won't be able to shed much light on it.

I'm not aware of any proven, documented instance of cell phones and now Wi-Fi causing interference with aircraft communications, navigation, or on-board systems. There is some anectodal evidence, and enough, I guess, to warrant the federal regulation requiring everybody to turn their computers and phones off. It's better to be safe than sorry.


One of the things I find interesting about cell-phone usage and airplanes is that just about every major airport in the US is surrounded by urban areas that are FULL of cell phones and we are constantly flying above these areas during approaches to landing, very often in bad weather when we are most reliant on our navigation receivers and when we have the least room for error. We may be only a few hundred feet high when passing overhead during the final phase of our approach, and yet there has never been a (documented) problem. Of course, the signal strength would be lower from phones on the ground than on-board the airplane, but I wouldn't think by much, once the airplane got close to the ground.


I wonder what happens if someone fires up a GPS on their PPC in-flight....

The thing about a GPS is it just receives signals that are already out there, its a passive receiver, so it shouldn't interfere, and it should work. I believe GPS is line of sight though so it has to be able to "see" the satellites

I do have another funny story to tell.....

I'll bet a month's pay that the stew was signalling the pilot everytime the guy turned his laptop on and off and was tickling the rudder pedals when he had it on and stopped when he turned it off.

hollis_f
02-09-2003, 08:30 PM
I wonder what happens if someone fires up a GPS on their PPC in-flight....Nothing if you've got a crew that aren't terminally stupid.

A gps device is a passive receiver. There is no way it could possibly interfere with the aircraft's operation.

There are regular discussions about this on sci.geo.satellite-nav

felixdd
02-10-2003, 03:42 AM
I wonder what happens if someone fires up a GPS on their PPC in-flight....Nothing if you've got a crew that aren't terminally stupid.


They exist? I thought this was only a legend...a myth... :lol:

sgyee
02-10-2003, 04:50 AM
Ok, I'll comment on this. But I'm afraid I won't be able to shed much light on it.

I'm not aware of any proven, documented instance of cell phones and now Wi-Fi causing interference with aircraft communications, navigation, or on-board systems. There is some anectodal evidence, and enough, I guess, to warrant the federal regulation requiring everybody to turn their computers and phones off. It's better to be safe than sorry.


One of the things I find interesting about cell-phone usage and airplanes is that just about every major airport in the US is surrounded by urban areas that are FULL of cell phones and we are constantly flying above these areas during approaches to landing, very often in bad weather when we are most reliant on our navigation receivers and when we have the least room for error. We may be only a few hundred feet high when passing overhead during the final phase of our approach, and yet there has never been a (documented) problem. Of course, the signal strength would be lower from phones on the ground than on-board the airplane, but I wouldn't think by much, once the airplane got close to the ground.


I wonder what happens if someone fires up a GPS on their PPC in-flight....

The thing about a GPS is it just receives signals that are already out there, its a passive receiver, so it shouldn't interfere, and it should work. I believe GPS is line of sight though so it has to be able to "see" the satellites

I do have another funny story to tell.....

I'll bet a month's pay that the stew was signalling the pilot everytime the guy turned his laptop on and off and was tickling the rudder pedals when he had it on and stopped when he turned it off.

No bet. Considering some of the wierd things that I've seen happen, I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

67stang
02-10-2003, 08:49 AM
Not being able to use cell phones and such on flights to me is suspiciously related to profitability that it is to saftey. The Air Phones that are on most seat backs in airplanes are obviously satellite communications as well, but the carrier and the airline reap $15 per minute of your usage.

Now Lufthansa is experimenting with wifi in flight...and suddenly its not a big deal to open up a laptop... hmmm :roll:

topps
02-10-2003, 09:31 AM
I wonder what happens if someone fires up a GPS on their PPC in-flight....


I do have another funny story to tell. About 7 years ago, I was riding on an American Airlines flight in First Class, when a person one row ahead of me brings out his laptop, fires it up, and immediately, the plane starts doing wacky things.



Great story. Unfortunately, I believe that it is also fairly typical in that there is nothing other than anecdotal evidence about RFI and avionics. Of course, theoretically there is always the potential for interference but we live in a world of relative risk.

I think that John Dvorak had a brief piece about this not long ago...if this really is the problem that protagonists would have you believe then planes should be dropping out of the sky on a daily basis.

The same myth about this being a deadly serious problem affects us in hospitals where cell phones are typically banned. I did a recent lit search and looked at the studies on RFI and pacemakers, telemetry units etc. The methodology and clinical conclusions (not statistical conclusions) were flawed in every case presented.

The biggest irony is that the security guards can wander anywhere in the hospital with their clunky old 3W radio units, which radiate far more side-band interference than anything, and nobody says boo.

Unfortunately, our administrators are paralysed by the fear that something MIGHT happen and cannot properly assess the truly tiny risk posed by RFI. The risk from this kinda stuff can never be zero (as with most things) but is so small that surely we have better things to worry about.

topps
02-10-2003, 09:35 AM
Not being able to use cell phones and such on flights to me is suspiciously related to profitability that it is to saftey. The Air Phones that are on most seat backs in airplanes are obviously satellite communications as well, but the carrier and the airline reap $15 per minute of your usage.

Now Lufthansa is experimenting with wifi in flight...and suddenly its not a big deal to open up a laptop... hmmm :roll:

Absolutely. Cell phones skip hundreds of cells when you are 5 miles up. Their systems are set up so that the least number of land hops are needed and so the farthest away cell that your phone can reach is the one that will handshake, not the one that has the greatest signal strength. It's all about money.

lucia316
02-11-2003, 01:30 AM
Get this...this is the funniest part of this whole thing.

Have a Blackberry? You can use that. What? Very true, I have seen it and discussed with people at my company's airline. I too have heard about the Boeing Broadband experiment with Lufthansa. It is okay here, but not normally.

Also, remember this. The electronic devices "may" interfer or cause interference with the instruments. There is no proof, that I have seen, that electronic devices do cause problems.

L316 8)

Stik
02-11-2003, 04:44 AM
Thanks to Calvarez of the Socket Forum for this ' picture '...
http://www.socketforum.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1155