Round Tripping - Oh The Shame Of It All

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20030206.html">http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20030206.html</a><br /><br />Walt Mossberg chose to discuss the dark ugly secret of the Pocket PC in his "Personal Technology" column today. No, not Connection Manager. ;) Support for Microsoft Office documents. While nearly 3 years ago the Pocket PC had the best support for Office Documents on any handheld, today, it is a distant second. Few improvements have been made to the miniature suite. Pocket Word now has a spell checker, but that is about all that is new since April of 2000. The bottom line is, Palm OS devices, through third party apps usually bundled with a new device, have the best Office support today, not the Pocket PC. <br /><br />Oh the humanity! :oops:

[TawnerX]

Somebody, send this wallstreet guy a copy of Textmaker and SpreadCE already.

"Anyone seeking to view or edit Office documents on a PDA would do fine with a Palm-based model and Documents To Go -- better, in many respects, than somebody using a Pocket PC." &lt;&lt;--- this is a clueless statement from a techno columnist.

Jessh, Microsoft really has to buy this mossberg guy. If Handspring can sucker this guy, sure as hell Microsoft can do better.


PS. PPCT need to have picture attachment: anyway somebody email that mossberg dude this screenshot! (lol)
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&amp;postid=456449#post456449

PPS. Say, whatever happen to that WashingtonPost dude guy anyway? Is he still running on his Clie?

[Kati Compton]

Somebody, send this wallstreet guy a copy of Textmaker and SpreadCE already.

Yes, but I think the point is what you can do with the device out-of-box. Even though Palm's use 3rd party software for MS Office support, it's usually bundled with the device. Don't have to buy anything additional, and it's apparently much better than what comes with PPC PDAs (though I have not tried the Palm versions).

[Kirkaiya]

I think that since TextMaker just recently came out of Beta, and into customer's hands, it might not be fair to blame every tech-journalist who hasn't heard about it.

For a lot of people, what they see in CompUSA is what is available - and WordSmith and Documents-to-Go are always on the rack, but I have yet to see TextMaker there.

So while now, FINALLY, with the advent of a large ("memory-hog" is how one review put it) PPC Word Processing app (TextMaker), the PPC seems to have superior word-processing capabilities, it's still a bit of a SHAME (for SHAME, Microsoft!!) that Pocket Word just sux so horribly badly.

[TawnerX]

Somebody, send this wallstreet guy a copy of Textmaker and SpreadCE already.

Yes, but I think the point is what you can do with the device out-of-box. Even though Palm's use 3rd party software for MS Office support, it's usually bundled with the device. Don't have to buy anything additional, and it's apparently much better than what comes with PPC PDAs (though I have not tried the Palm versions).

Yes I have to agree somehow on the textmaker part, It is big, expensive and require good deal of effort.

but not for SpreadCE. It's just a matter of downloading it. (as oppose to installing it from disc?) Okay so it's unlimited$20 shareware. I am sure it's not to expensive for Wallstreet to pay $20 shareware if not free just for the test.

[Kati Compton]

but not for SpreadCE. It's just a matter of downloading it. (as suppose to installing it from disc?) Okay so it's unlimited$20 shareware. I am sure it's not to expensive for Wallstreet to pay $20 shareware if not free just for the test.

But shouldn't Microsoft provide better support for their own documents on their own platform? Should we really *need* 3rd party support to get us up to the level of what Palm users can achieve?

Keep in mind also that a lot of PDA users just use what came with the PDA and *don't* add anything to it. They're probably not here, but they do exist.

It's not just a question of should the Wallstreet guy pay the $20 shareware. But should the consumer have to pay the $20 shareware to get support for a document format that is claimed to be already supported (although I thought the native support for Excel is better than support for Word).

And those shopping for a new PDA that would want to use it with Word and Excel documents, if they did not research this, would logically think that PocketPC would be the way to go if they needed that support. Microsoft operating system, Microsoft implementation of the Pocket versions of Word and Excel... And they'd most likely be disappointed, at least on the Word front.

[bdegroodt]

Is it just me or is Walt more anti-MSFT lately than days gone by?

[Sven Johannsen]

Not an excuse, but a historical perspective. It has been reported that the intended function of the Pocket Office products was to allow viewing Office attachments in emails downloaded to the PPC, possibly directly (not via AS). Doing something, editing, or even producing the docs on the PPC was a secondary concern for the PPC philosophy. That always made me wonder why a Pocket Powerpoint viewer wasn't included, as Powerpoint attachments may not be as common as Word and Excel, but they certainly aren't insignificant. There was already some level of code available with the Pocket Powerpoint for Handhelds and the AS conduit already existed.

In any case, yes, it is a shame that the out of the box experience is poor for viewing, and criminal that the round trip experience is abysmal. As a consumer I would reasonably expect that the MS support for MS products would be better than average, native or third party. Of course, try getting hotmail or MSN mail on your PPC (out of the box). I suppose it is now just a matter of which company (or companies) MS needs to buy to get decent Office support out of the box.

[dh]

Ed is 100% correct and it's inexcusable that Microsoft have not produced a good version of Office for the PPC.

Docs to Go on the Palm is an excellent program and handles Word and Excel files very well. It's included on the CD with the Palm Tungsten T and with the higher end Sonys. (Palm has a better version though).

Obviously Palm had to bundle something from a third party since Palm OS does not provide any support for Office applications otherwise.

I've read the reviews on Textmaker and it seems to be a first class product, at least as good as the Word part of Docs2Go. Am I right in thinking it costs about $70.00 though?

Since the PPC Office programs are so weak, MS ought to think about taking them out and have the OEMs bundle third party solutions like Textmaker with their product offerings. (as if).

Sounds to me that DataViz could do very well with a PPC version of Docs2Go!!

[Ed Hansberry]

I agree that SpreadCE and TextMaker are awesome apps, but they are a combined $70 and neither one are well known. Few outside of these enthusiast circles know about them. They aren't at Handango and the SpreadCE site unfortunately looks 5 years old with no Pocket PC screen shots.

And unless I am mistaken, TextMaker doesn't natively go into a Pocket Word replacement mode. It keeps its own formats and you have to manually tell it to save into Word. No thanks. Not for me.

[TawnerX]

Well the same question can be said about DTG , shouldn't Palm make their own software instead of bundling third party apps?

in case of SpreadCE, it becomes a matter of either you prefer it in a disc and have the cost included in the exorbitant price of T|T or Clie. (DTG 5.0 at any rate)

or have it as quickie download and prod around yourself. It's only a matter of convinience and there is no fundamental functionalities difference as claimed by Wall st. SpreadCE traunch any spreadsheet feature liset for Palm, not to mention conduit conversion is not necessary.

On Text maker. I think it's only a matter of time before a drove of hungry developers start flooding the market with cheap immitation of word processor. If not some crazy dev. porting an opensource Wordprocessor to PPC.

And really, all those Palm companies, such as maker of quickoffice etc. can surely see this big opportunity to port their apps to PPC. (not sure why anybody want that crazy conduit conversion process tho')

[TawnerX]

I agree that SpreadCE and TextMaker are awesome apps, but they are a combined $70 and neither one are well known. Few outside of these enthusiast circles know about them. They aren't at Handango and the SpreadCE site unfortunately looks 5 years old with no Pocket PC screen shots.


awee.... beauty is in the eye of beholder. :D
I love those old crazy screenie with Japanese fonts on top of it. They look so nostalgic.

plus. I am making it well known. mm...maybe I should taunt Mossberg myself. *thinking about making more naughty graphs*

Also, How come PPCT doesn't have review to counter those pesky "Doc To Go" is better than anything on pocket PC opinion? This is dishearthening. quit complaining and make some article. (but dont' look at me :P)

[rooks308]

For god's sakes m$ft, update the damn apps already, I have been waitng for them to update word and excel for what seems like forever. It is truly a SHAME that pocket word is not as good at WORD than doc-to-go. Same goes with excel and the rest. I used to use Docs-to-go when I was a palm OS user and It worked great, wish I could say the same for pocket word and excel. It's just not right..... :)

[Foo Fighter]

Office compatibility is certainly one of PPCs shortcomings. However, IMO, the biggest weak spot is ActiveStink. I've been having problems over the past week, and today it stopped working altogether. My Axim is now a $200 paperweight. Oh I'm sure I can remedy the problem by doing a hard reset or un-installing/reinstalling ActiveSync again. But the question is; why should I have to put up with this? :roll:

[TawnerX]

I think that since TextMaker just recently came out of Beta, and into customer's hands, it might not be fair to blame every tech-journalist who hasn't heard about it.


yeah but he suppose to give his expert opinion for gawd sake, not just any other opinion.

[TawnerX]

Again office compatibility IS NOT PPC shortcoming. There are alternatives, and some are cheap and easy.

It's just pocket Office that is very short on feature.

Of course ideally I would like Microsoft to give a complete feature as freebies. but...live is not fair. (But didn't Microsoft going to put some universl doc viewer for .net?)

[preempt2]

The failure on the part of MS to provide fully functional basic document applications has caused me to question the advantage of Windows-based PDAs. I use the Visor Prism, T-Mobile's Sidekick, and the beautiful Pocket PC Phone Edition. The Palm-based Visor Prism is still the most versatile and easy to use pda around. The MS Pocket PC lacks full-functionality for document manipulation and it really hurts the viability of the product with people who need their "papers."

[TawnerX]

preempt2,

What "full functionality for documents manipulation" are you referring to that PPC cannot do but your Visor Prism can?

Or are you really saying: "I've never download anything and only capable of evaluating out of the box experiance" Hence PPC office productivity capability are sub par.

I would challange you to come up with anything that a PPC cannot do but your Visor can. (does it even have color under sunlight? 8O )

[VanHlebar]

Office compatibility is certainly one of PPCs shortcomings. However, IMO, the biggest weak spot is ActiveStink. I've been having problems over the past week, and today it stopped working altogether. My Axim is now a $200 paperweight. Oh I'm sure I can remedy the problem by doing a hard reset or un-installing/reinstalling ActiveSync again. But the question is; why should I have to put up with this? :roll:

Foo,
I agree with you. My fiance's HP568 just up at quit syncing this week. I have been to busy to try and fix it and this isn't the first time it has happened. I have been having problems with my Axim staying connected at times, but it always would connect and sync. Now I can't even get hers to see the damn cradle. Like you I could do a hard reset or delete the partnership, but I shouldn't have to do this every other month or so with her ppc.

Its just frustrating that M$ won't put some of their bucks behind this project and make it what it should be. :evil:

-Eric

[xbalance]

[quote=Foo Fighter]I have been having problems with my Axim staying connected at times, but it always would connect and sync. Now I can't even get hers to see the damn cradle. Like you I could do a hard reset or delete the partnership, but I shouldn't have to do this every other month or so with her ppc.
-Eric

I do not doubt that you are experiencing the problems you have described but I cannot say I understand why you and Foo are having these problems (or all the other people that constantly log ActiveSync problems). I have owned 5 pocket pcs starting with the first generation palm-sized pc. I have synched up with work computers and home computers running Windows 95, 98 and 2000 - no real problems.
I am not the most technical person so I tend to keep things the way they came out of the box. I just don't get it why some people have trouble with ActiveSync and others do not.

I do wish MSFT would ehnance the Office apps, especially Excel since I would like to use it more. It would be nice to hear something from MSFT on what the future holds for the PocektPC. Too bad they have to keep quiet to keep from hurting current PPC sales.

[deuce coupe]

Ed:

Couldn't agree more. MS has been very slow to improve the Office apps on the PPC. I have particular problems with Excel. I distribute some custom Office Excel software which is, of course, protected. Pocket Excel would be an ideal app for field work with complex forms but MS in their "wisdom" stripped out some of the most useful features like combo boxes, check boxes and many useful functions such as array formulae. But worst for me, there is no protection of any kind in Pocket Excel. So when you copy from the desktop app it is necessary to remove all levels of protection and import to the PPC. I end up with a functionally reduced version w/o protection. It does not sync back with my orignal forms due to the function / controls removals, anyone can read the formulas and anyone can change or edit the formulas intentionally or accidently so. So it makes no sense to distribute any app in Excel on the PPC. What were they thinking?

Another feature that the PPC Excel would benefit from is speech recognition of the NUMBERS 0 through to 9. Not words, just 10 digits and the word "point" for the decimal point. Much of the data entry to Excel forms is numeric only.

I have been disappointed for MS and the PPC manufacturers not push the envelope more. While cheaper PPC's have materialized in the last year they are not functionally much improved. Perhaps MS and the PPC makers resources were spread too thin with the introduction of the XDA and Tablet PC. Whatever, their complacency has allowed Palm to catch up in varying degrees.

I have decided to pass on the current crop of PPC's even though I lust for a built in Bluetooth PPC to use with my cel. I can make do with the infrared and wait for more capable Office apps.

Meanwhile I have bought an HPAQ Tablet PC because it does not suffer from the Office capability / compatiblity issues of the PPC .

Bruce Gough

[Paragon]

I'm beginning to think that maybe Microsoft is doing it right....sort of. I'm not sure I want my ROM filled with 15mb of Excel, and Word applications alone. I think most, that is the masses would choose to have a pocket version in ROM, and the choice of buying and installing a fuller functioning version if needed.

MS could easily develop full function apps available as upgrades but to wipeout a huge chunck of ROM for them I think is a very questionable move.....

Dave

[fyiguy]

Foo,
I agree with you. My fiance's HP568 just up at quit syncing this week. I have been to busy to try and fix it and this isn't the first time it has happened. I have been having problems with my Axim staying connected at times, but it always would connect and sync. Now I can't even get hers to see the damn cradle. Like you I could do a hard reset or delete the partnership, but I shouldn't have to do this every other month or so with her ppc.

Its just frustrating that M$ won't put some of their bucks behind this project and make it what it should be. :evil:

-Eric

Have you tried stopping Activesync?? Sometimes it does get locked up, and prevents sequential syncs.

You can unlock it by using asreboot.exe (a little-known Microsoft utility program that can stop and restart ActiveSync). You can download this tool here (http://download.microsoft.com/download/pocketpc/utility/1.00/wce/en-us/asreboot.exe)). It stops both wcesmgr.exe (the application that displays the ActiveSync window) and wcescomm.exe, a background program that doesn't automatically stop when the ActiveSync window closes.

The next time ActiveSync fails to connect, follow these steps:

1. Disconnect the mobile device and perform a soft reset.

2. Close the ActiveSync window.

3. Using either Microsoft's asreboot.exe utility or Task Manager, terminate wcescomm.exe.

4. Start ActiveSync and connect your device.

Hopefully this will solve your problems...

:D

[Janak Parekh]

I'm beginning to think that maybe Microsoft is doing it right....sort of. I'm not sure I want my ROM filled with 15mb of Excel, and Word applications alone. I think most, that is the masses would choose to have a pocket version in ROM, and the choice of buying and installing a fuller functioning version if needed.
Moreover, is it fair to third parties if MS just bundles a Office suite? Why not bundle an Office suite with Windows XP? I'm aware the two are different, and yet it really asks what the definition of an OS is, in either the deskop or PDA context.

In any case for me, Pocket Word's and Pocket Excel's functionality is near-perfect. My one gripe is the losing of passwords on the roundtripping.

--janak

[Ed Hansberry]

3. Using either Microsoft's asreboot.exe utility or Task Manager, terminate wcescomm.exe.
It doesn't happen to me very often, but when it does, I also kill WCESMGR.EXE if it is running.

XP/2K/NT users can also log off and back on. No need to reboot.

[Gremmie]

But shouldn't Microsoft provide better support for their own documents on their own platform? Should we really *need* 3rd party support to get us up to the level

Well, that depends on the zen of the OS. For instance, Apple says the OS should be in the background the 3 party apps make a good OS. Occasionally, Apple will include those 3 party apps, but not make the substantial to the OS.

Microsoft has gone to great lengths intergrating everything into the OS. For example "We can't exclude Internet Explorer because doing so would corrupt the OS"

So Microsofts OS zen would be they should support office more, while Palm has adapted the Apple standpoint. But the question should be, should Micrsoft change its PPC OS zen.

[Foo Fighter]

I've tried that many times, fyiguy. It doesn't help. I keep getting the same error message saying time out occurred while checking for out of date appointments. I'm getting nowhere. :cry:

[surur]

back on topic....


I think a full features pocketOffice is not a financial possiblity.

Think about it.. MS gets only about $20 for each pocketpc license... that will never pay for $400 office suite functionality.

I think what would be more fair would be to admit that the apps that come bundled with a pocketpc are in fact e.g. pocketwordPAD, not pocketword, and then develop software which you can purchase seperately, in the $100 range, to get full office functionality.

Its like outlook 2000 now being bundled in stead of xp. There is not much technical reason for this, but financially speaking, why should MS give away a product costing $100 + as a stand alone, for only less than $20?

I mean, we dont complain about not getting Office XP with Windows Xp when we buy it, do we?

What I would appreciate most is a lack of hypocracy about all these things, and for MS to admit their real motivations and financial limitations etc, so people can make informed choices without inaccurate hype.

Surur

[Paragon]

I'm beginning to think that maybe Microsoft is doing it right....sort of. I'm not sure I want my ROM filled with 15mb of Excel, and Word applications alone. I think most, that is the masses would choose to have a pocket version in ROM, and the choice of buying and installing a fuller functioning version if needed.
Moreover, is it fair to third parties if MS just bundles a Office suite? Why not bundle an Office suite with Windows XP? I'm aware the two are different, and yet it really asks what the definition of an OS is, in either the deskop or PDA context.

In any case for me, Pocket Word's and Pocket Excel's functionality is near-perfect. My one gripe is the losing of passwords on the roundtripping.

--janak

Well maybe we could take that a step further......Perhaps MS could add about 5 bucks to the cost of Office XP, and add full versions of Word, and Excel for the Pocket PC as well that can be installed. Imagine where that leads...Every version of Office XP is a walking add for Pocket PCs. I wonder how many eyes would opened to PPCs if they did that. Plus they would likley make more money on the application buy selling it to a much wider audience....

Dave

Dave

[Kirkaiya]

I'm beginning to think that maybe Microsoft is doing it right....sort of. I'm not sure I want my ROM filled with 15mb of Excel, and Word applications alone. I think most, that is the masses would choose to have a pocket version in ROM, and the choice of buying and installing a fuller functioning version if needed.

MS could easily develop full function apps available as upgrades but to wipeout a huge chunck of ROM for them I think is a very questionable move.....

Dave

This is a good point. In fact, for people that would want a more full-function version of Word, perhaps they should sell a "Pocket Office +", available either on an SD-ROM, CF-ROM card, or CD-ROM (I've noticed people in CompUSA buying Palm apps on SD-ROM cards).

A "Pocket Office Plus" pack should include

- MSFT-branded TextMaker (with the default "save as" format changed to Word format)
- WesTek's PowerPoint Viewer (the one that came with my Viewsonic V35 was great)
- A version of SpreadCE, or some enhanced Excel-clone, that supports more of the full functinality.

Even if these were big apps, and took up a 32 MB card, that would be fine. The other features of such apps should be:

1. By default, the apps should open, allow edits, and save the files WITHOUT losing any content, even content and data that isn't viewable on the Pocket version (ie., if there are Word macros in the document, they might not be available on the PPC version, but when you beam it to a laptop, or whatever, they would still be there, even if you opened and edited the document)

2. Installing the apps should then either prompt you to (or automatically) change the "convert" settings in ActiveSync, so that the files are not converted during round-trip.

None of this requires anything new - anybody reading this could contact the respective companies (TextMaker, SpreadCE, and WesTek) and get a licensing agreeement to bundle the apps, but Microsoft should do this, and polish the install, etc.

Personally, I turned off the ActiveSync conversion for office documents soon after getting my first PPC, since Pocket Word opens up Word 2000/XP docs just fine, and i want to be able to beam them to client's laptops (or transfer using a USB-SD reader) without having everything stripped out.

Whew!!

[dbman]

Ed is 100% correct and it's inexcusable that Microsoft have not produced a good version of Office for the PPC.

Docs to Go on the Palm is an excellent program and handles Word and Excel files very well. It's included on the CD with the Palm Tungsten T and with the higher end Sonys. (Palm has a better version though).

Obviously Palm had to bundle something from a third party since Palm OS does not provide any support for Office applications otherwise.

I've read the reviews on Textmaker and it seems to be a first class product, at least as good as the Word part of Docs2Go. Am I right in thinking it costs about $70.00 though?

Since the PPC Office programs are so weak, MS ought to think about taking them out and have the OEMs bundle third party solutions like Textmaker with their product offerings. (as if).

Sounds to me that DataViz could do very well with a PPC version of Docs2Go!!

After I switched from a Tungsten to an Dell Axim, I contacted DataViz and asked if they were considering a version of Docs2Go for the PPC. Their answer was a resounding "No!" Since Microsoft bundles Word and Excel with the PPC OS, DataViz feels they could not get a decent return on their development expense. They also fear that MS could crush competition by releasing just enough of an update to dissuade people from buying an alternative.

I have used Docs2Go on several Palms and with the latest versions, the round trip is perfect. All formatting is preserved in both Word and Excel. DataViz still needs to make the spreadsheet a little more powerful, but at least it works and all formatting and charts are preserved.

Since it appears that MS can not fit decent functionality into ROM versions of Office, these apps should be removed from the OS and sold separately. This might give 3rd party developers incentive to compete with lower-cost alternatives and pressure Microsoft's to keep their features competitive.

[TawnerX]

1. There is a BIG difference in memory and CPU requirement for making standalone office apps compared to conversion client like DTG, Qoffice et. all.

2. making a stand alone pocket office that can open ALL desktop files flawlessly would turn these apps into a monster. DTG is made for dragonball and all the heavy lifting is done by the conduit.

3. I wouldn't want some pathetic 'conduit'/ desktop companion apps like DTG or quickoffice. It's Pocket PC for gawdsake. It should act as "Pocketable Personal Computer" when resource permit, not some apendages of my desktop computer. From what I gather SpreadCE kills all of Palm spreadsheet offering even with the help of conduit. (I haven't really compare ptab to Palm offering.)

4. I do however want cheaper Textmaker :D

I wish somebody could just port Latex, make a simple Latex &lt;-> MS Word conduit and shut everybody up about wordprocessor already ... heh .

[jmarkevich]

In any case for me, Pocket Word's and Pocket Excel's functionality is near-perfect. My one gripe is the losing of passwords on the roundtripping.

--janak

Near perfect? Whoa you don't expect much...

I like to have either spaces between paragraphs (3 or 6 pt, before or after like Word and even WordSmith allows) or at least first line indenting. Pocket Word starts to indent each line but as soon as you add a linefeed it forgets all about that and starts at the left margin again. GRRR!

Not that margins mean anything...

Basically this BBCode editor in a web page is at least as good if not better than Pocket Word.

Excel is pretty good, though, I never found a spreadsheet for Palm that was as good.

P.S. I'm using PPC 2000 but my guess is that hasn't changed.

[Janak Parekh]

Near perfect? Whoa you don't expect much...
Nope, I don't. :) I do note-taking with Pocket Word, keep a few spreadsheets with sysadmin info (like IPs) in Pocket Excel, and that's about it. But I suspect I'm the exception amongst this crowd.

--janak

[Kati Compton]

Well the same question can be said about DTG , shouldn't Palm make their own software instead of bundling third party apps?

But in this case, Palm doesn't "own" the document format the way Microsoft does.

[TawnerX]

Well the same question can be said about DTG , shouldn't Palm make their own software instead of bundling third party apps?

But in this case, Palm doesn't "own" the document format the way Microsoft does.

I can understand there is lack of widespread choice of office suit solution compared to Palm, but my argument was choices exist and they are not as complicated as people might think. In fact it's pretty trivial. The quality of these choices certainly exceed any of Palm offering. (Textmaker, SpreadCe, ptab, Clearvue) I never buy the idea that anybody who needs solution more than what pocketword provides actually incompetent to search the alternative above. ..... (but that's just me)

If Microsoft has to provide end solutions for all of the file formats they own or initiate, I believes there won't be anything left for 3rd party developer. They own everything in the office suit arena. lol

I think Microsoft solution for the next CE4.2 are pretty good. Provide a Clearvue like all purpose documents reader, and hopefully improved slightly the pathetic Pword to the level of desktop Wordpad. Then leaves everything else to third party. Hopefully, in the long run, this will actually result in cheaper office suits than having only 1 viable solution and 2 trivial one as in desktop arena.

Even better, who knows these little guys will actually implement univeral office suits file format based on XML, and provide a steppig stone to finally end "MS desktop office format" stronghold.

[cmorris]

Just curious since some people have mentioned the amount of ROM it would take to improve PWord/PExcel...

How much room does Documents2Go use? I know it is apples and oranges since Palm apps are inherently smaller but even a relative comparison would be interesting to me...

[Paragon]

Just curious since some people have mentioned the amount of ROM it would take to improve PWord/PExcel...

How much room does Documents2Go use? I know it is apples and oranges since Palm apps are inherently smaller but even a relative comparison would be interesting to me...

A very good relative comparison would be Textmaker, it's about 7MB if memory serves me correct.

Dave

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I can understand there is lack of widespread choice of office suit solution compared to Palm, but my argument was choices exist and they are not as complicated as people might think.
For specific people, those alternatives may work fine. However, consider that many have their desktop versions of Word and Excel and would like a product that acts seamlessly as a pocket office equivalent. This becomes particularly important for those of us who work business consultants (or any other service oriented profession) and rely exclusively on Office documents, not only because that's what we have on our laptops but that is what is supported by 99.9% of our clients. That's where IMO, D2G kicks the hide out of the PPC equivalents, there's no need to worry about file formats, conversions, etc. It just works.

[emjay]

How much room does Documents2Go use? I know it is apples and oranges since Palm apps are inherently smaller but even a relative comparison would be interesting to me...

http://www.dataviz.com/products/documentstogo/dxtg_techspecs.html

Follow that link for a listing of all the DocsToGo components and the size of each app. Basically you're looking at about 2Mb if you install all 7 components, but you can get away with less.

[TawnerX]

...not only because that's what we have on our laptops but that is what is supported by 99.9% of our clients. That's where IMO, D2G kicks the hide out of the PPC equivalents, there's no need to worry about file formats, conversions, etc. It just works.

...hmm...

DTG "is" about file conversion.

It is incapable to directly export/import .xls, .doc. It also does not convert 100% of excel features. For eg. compared to excel, DTG does not suport symbols, macros and have far fewer built in functions.

If somebody can tolerate DTG conversion step, sure as heck tapping little tabs to change the default file format in Textmaker won't kill them.

Doc-To-Go is supposedly the BEST solution for Palm OS. There is nothing better than that to answer various PPC third party soln.

Again thus far, nobody has coming up with some common but non trivial example that DTG can do but a combo of various alternative in PPC cannot do.

but most importanly, I have no use of some "office apps that act like a conduit client". I need stand alone apps more than a conduit client. I simply cannot install conduit on all computer that my PDA data need to interface with.

Please show me how DTG can do what is in these two screen shots below.

http://www.pocketpclife.co.uk/images/features/textm3.gifhttp://www.pocketpclife.co.uk/images/features/textm7.gif
http://www.pocketpclife.co.uk/featureddetails.asp?article=167

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

DTG "is" about file conversion.
Yes, but it's conversion that happens automatically on sync.

IMO the alternatives on the PPC are strictly that... alternatives. They're not seamless replacements... and while TextMaker is undoubtedly a great application (by far the best word processor on the PPC), I've heard mixed results regarding the successful porting of Word formatted docs.

Again thus far, nobody has coming up with some common but non trivial example that DTG can do but a combo of various alternative in PPC cannot do.
Your challenge would be better answered by someone who has used both devices thoroughly in this regard. Not sure you'll find many like that on a PPC board.

Besides, IMO it's not necessarily which app has more features (though that is nice) as much as which app better complements your desktop equivalents.

I'm not looking for a powerful pocket processor as much as I'm looking for something that works well with my desktop version of Word.

For whatever reasons you want to list... the PPC just fails when it comes to advanced office support simply b/c of the risks involved with "round-tripping". D2G may be short-ended on features, but the fact is that you have the power to edit those docs on the go and then sync them back with no loss of formatting, which is invaluable...

[TawnerX]

So basically what you say is: I never try them and I am sure they won't work, including round tripping. They are just too risky. I don't need no stinkin feature, but I need formatting support. And DTG kicks behind.


...okay. I hope I am the ony one confused here.

[Weyoun6]

This is so sad. One of the reasons I switched to ppc was because at the time, Pocket Word was the only game in town. Now Palm is better than microsoft's own product?

Not only does palm have D2G, it also has wordsmith, a killer word processor that can edit. It is on par with textmaker. It is also way cheaper.

I hope microsoft gets on the ball about word processing. It is very important to students like me, and I dont want to have to spend more money on another program to overcome the weakness of the rom programs.

[TawnerX]

Not only does palm have D2G, it also has wordsmith, a killer word processor that can edit. It is on par with textmaker. It is also way cheaper.

That's a bit like saying Britney Spears is on par with Cecilia Bartolli and the ticket concert is also way cheaper.


I hope microsoft gets on the ball about word processing. It is very important to students like me, and I dont want to have to spend more money on another program to overcome the weakness of the rom programs.

Hey i like freebies and warez too... :wink:

[Weyoun6]

Look - Palm can have good programs that beat the pants off their ppc counterparts. I do not care what os my pda runs, as long as its the best. If palm had the best os - I would be using that os. But palm has been flat out dumb. That does not mean that the platform can't have good or better apps than the ppc. WordSmith, last time I checked, is a really good program, that until textmaker came out, was the best out there. And it does not cost $40 bucks, and it doesnt have its own format. Comparisons to Britney Spears are uncalled for.
Pocket Word is a shameful program that anyone would be embarassed to have. All they have added is Spell Check!

As to warex/freeware, The reason I got the ppc was so I didnt have to buy a boatload of programs to get basic functionality!

[Paragon]

. WordSmith, last time I checked, is a really good program, that until textmaker came out, was the best out there. And it does not cost $40 bucks

Yeah you're right it's only $30.00 :roll:

Dave

[TawnerX]

[weyoun6,]

Last time I check Wordsmith doesn't even do half of what Textmaker can do, let alone be called "on par". Textmaker is currently the Bentley of PDA wordprocessor bar none. Please check the feature list before taunting Wordsmith. Wordsmith had its glory days, but it was about 10 months ago.

Nobody in Palm world even tauts Wordsmith anymore since the DTG V5.0 comes out. Wordsmith is basically dead. At $30 bucks it has very similar feature to the bundled DTG V5.0.

If you are comparing pWord against DTG, hey..bitch away.. I'll help you out. But you won't be able to make claim the best wordprocessor solution in Palm is better than in PPC.

[Paragon]

neither one are well known. Few outside of these enthusiast circles know about them. They aren't at Handango

When Ed speaks, people listen! :)

I just recieved an email from Softmaker saying:

"TextMaker for Pocket PC soon available through Handango"

Dave

[TawnerX]

You know, if Softmaker is listening, they ought to create another "junior" version of their flagship that cost about $25-30 bucks. It doesn't have to have all the bells and wistles, just the essentials. It doesn't even need perpetual upgrade option, just bug fix. Idruna has similar product strategy, a personal version and a high end version.

$50 bucks admitedly is a big investment to buy a full featured software which half the feature won't get used.

If that doesn't happen, sooner or later a competition will fill the $25-30 bucks niche market.

[Ed Hansberry]

neither one are well known. Few outside of these enthusiast circles know about them. They aren't at Handango

When Ed speaks, people listen! :)

Heh heh. I was the "E" in "E F Hutton"

[Paragon]

Heh heh. I was the "E" in "E F Hutton"

Ha! You just dated yourself with that line, my friend. :)

Dave

[Skoobouy]

And unless I am mistaken, TextMaker doesn't natively go into a Pocket Word replacement mode. It keeps its own formats and you have to manually tell it to save into Word. No thanks. Not for me.

TextMaker keeps its settings; once you configure it to save as MS Word, it will continue to do so. Then you have your PWord replacement. :)

[Ed Hansberry]

TextMaker keeps its settings; once you configure it to save as MS Word, it will continue to do so. Then you have your PWord replacement. :)
Well, I may give it another try. It definitely did not do that in the first beta. I want a totally seamless Word replacement.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

So basically what you say is: I never try them and I am sure they won't work, including round tripping. They are just too risky. I don't need no stinkin feature, but I need formatting support. And DTG kicks behind.
Uh... however you want to word that... :roll:

Personally, the PWord and PExcel apps fit about 90% of my needs, so personally, I'm not as enthused at the prospect of spending $70 to satisfy the remaining 10% of my needs. Thank you.

I do know what the main frustration of most users with PWord is that it does not serve as a seamless Word replacement. When Textmaker was announced (several months before it was actually released), it was hyped big time on all the PPC sites including here. The main reason was that people were finally expecting to get a seamless pocket word replacement.

As the product came out, many tried it and while nearly everyone praised it for its capabilities, I also heard many complaints about the problems they had with the Word round-tripping.

So let me try to reword my viewpoint here in one basic sentence: many of us are not looking for Office XP capabilities in a bottle, we're looking for seamless pocket equivalents. Period.

I'm sorry if you're aghast at the fact that I don't need Pocket Office apps to be all-powerful. But yes, format retention is of *highest* importance to me because the ability to edit professional documents seamlessly is of greater importance than the need to write a novel from scratch.

[Paragon]

So let me try to reword my viewpoint here in one basic sentence: many of us are not looking for Office XP in a bottle, we're looking for seamless pocket equivalents. Period.

Nicely said ekkie. That's probably the best statement made in ths whole thread.

Dave

[alanjrobertson]

Just to further fan the flames of debate - DataViz have announced that they'll be providing native support for Word/Excel formats (expected to be released this summer) - http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4985

I use Doc2Go and I'm very happy with the latest version - the PPT viewer is particularly handy when preparing a presentation or for reference weeks later.

However I don't for any moment think that Docs2Go replaces a full-blown word processor - there are other apps on the Palm that aim to cover that segment. I use it primarily to work on documents I've already started on my desktop, to start simple new ones, and to access attachments that are sitting in my OE Inbox. The support for native formats will be very useful in the future for accessing files sent by e-mail (although until GPRS pricing falls more I'm not sure how keen I'll be to download these sorts of files!).

Cheers

Alan