PPC Virus

[Green_Day_20]

With computer viruses in the news so much now, I was wondering, can PPCs get viruses?? If so, are they the same as a regular PC? do they have Pocket Virus scanners?

[Janak Parekh]

There are virus scanners for Pocket PC, but there aren't any currently-known viruses, AFAIK. You can't get a PC virus on your Pocket PC - they're totally different architectures.

--janak

[Pony99CA]

There are virus scanners for Pocket PC, but there aren't any currently-known viruses, AFAIK. You can't get a PC virus on your Pocket PC - they're totally different architectures.

If there aren't any Pocket PC viruses, what do things like PC-Cillin scan for?

Also, you probably can get a PC virus on your Pocket PC, but it won't do anything. For example, if you download a virus attached to an E-mail, the virus is on your Pocket PC, but it probably can't do any harm.

Also, if your Pocket PC is cradled, can a virus on your PC copy itself to your Pocket PC? (I'm sure one could be made to, but I wonder if any actually do now.) While the virus couldn't run there, if you somehow copied it to another PC and ran it, your Pocket PC would have served as a carrier. :-)

Also, if any PC viruses recognize an attached Pocket PC, they could erase files from the Pocket PC. Thus, it's conceivable that a PC virus could directly affect your Pocket PC.

Steve

[vincentsiaw]

maybe later days they will create virus for the ppc, you know some grredy people trying to make money by selling the anti-virus, usual scheme..

[Janak Parekh]

If there aren't any Pocket PC viruses, what do things like PC-Cillin scan for?
That's a very good question. I've never been impressed with these scanners.

Also, you probably can get a PC virus on your Pocket PC, but it won't do anything. For example, if you download a virus attached to an E-mail, the virus is on your Pocket PC, but it probably can't do any harm.
True. What I should have said is, your Pocket PC can't be infected by a PC virus. A PC virus can certainly cause harm to a docked Pocket PC, although it's not as trivial as the Pocket PC doesn't get assigned a drive letter; and the Pocket PC market isn't large enough to attract the attention of virus writers (yet).

--janak

[Pony99CA]

maybe later days they will create virus for the ppc, you know some grredy people trying to make money by selling the anti-virus, usual scheme..
Trend Micro gives the Pocket PC version of PC-Cillin away for free, so how is it greed?

I know of at least one Palm virus that went wild a few years ago. I suppose that could have triggered the anti-virus companies to create a Pocket PC version without any known viruses, but I think they'd have better things to do with their engineering talent than create a program for a problem that didn't exist. Am I being too naive? :-)

I looked at the PC-Cillin virus database a while ago, and there were a few things in it. There may not be any Pocket PC viruses in the wild, but I suspect those virus detectors do know about some that aren't in the wild.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

I know of at least one Palm virus that went wild a few years ago.
Ah, the good old trojan that was released by the same author of the real program but was sick of seeing people copy it, so he wrote one that would erase your data and released it into the wild as a warez'd copy.

I still wouldn't use antivirus software on my Pocket PC right now. :)

--janak

[Rirath]

maybe later days they will create virus for the ppc, you know some grredy people trying to make money by selling the anti-virus, usual scheme..

Personally I don't buy it, at least not the bigger name companies. Once had a customer at Staples flat out call me an idiot because I refused to humor him and "admit" that Norton was making viruses and then infecting people's computers to sell them their software. I then asked him (I was quite annoyed now) how on earth they've managed to fool security professionals across the country for so long. Got a response that was something like "Bah... they're just slick... ya see... whatever... people like you will always fall for it." :roll:

[Janak Parekh]

Personally I don't buy it, at least not the bigger name companies. Once had a customer at Staples flat out call me an idiot because I refused to humor him and "admit" that Norton was making viruses and then infecting people's computers to sell them their software.
Additionally, if you had the security professionals in Symantec making viruses, we'd be in much more trouble than we are now. :) Most virus creators do amateurish jobs that don't spread nearly as effectively because they trigger too quickly or have bugs.

--janak

[TheBacklash]

The way I look at it....

MS makes the PPC OS...
Most virus makers hate MS, for whatever the reason of the day is... (you rarely hear about a Virus that effects Apple...)
It's a matter of time...

Sure PPC's are not as widespread in order to cause the widespread panic and media attention that the Virus "creators" crave so much... :roll: but give them time.

Once MS takes Palm off the top, and palm starts rolling downhill faster... expect to see virus attacks. I know many hacker types... they loathe my PPC, and still stand behind thier precious Palm. :lol:
They even hate me more when They ask me what I'm doing... and I tell them playing a NES/SNES/TG16/GBC game on my PPC, or pull up something like argentum...and watch them drool. 8O Or watch video on it. :D

[Fzara]

Bah. I've heard of warez and stuff for the PPC OS, so I feel we'll be having a couple waves of attacks soon once the PPC Platform gains a bit more attention.

I'm not worried about these viruses. Personally, I'm sure PPCT will have a news story about a PPC virus, and will tell us the fix or how to avoid it. I trust PPCT and the staff, and personally i'm not scared at all when an attack comes.

[Janak Parekh]

Once MS takes Palm off the top, and palm starts rolling downhill faster... expect to see virus attacks.
This is not going to happen until the majority of Pocket PCs are connected devices. Right now, there's no way to directly transmit worms or other viruses easily - thus a virus writer is not going to get an appreciable reach.

The true holds the same of Palm, btw. While you might think that Palm users are more likely to be virus writers, I beg to differ -- since there are more Palms on the market right now, a virus writer would have greater reach. It'll be some time, again, before that changes. A lot longer than you might think. :)

--janak

[TheBacklash]

speaking from a former hacker aspect...

I used to be of that background, hence the hacker assosiates... I grew up, for the most part. 8) (I still have a stack of 2600's a mile high 8O )

they pretty much only have PPC's for putting linux on them... PalmOS connects to linux/unix. Not aware of any connectins for a PPC to linux/unix.
I hear their complaints about MS, but I still don't understand them... MS just plays a better game than the rest. Although they have broke the law, but that don't make them an evil entity to me.
I was an avid Palm user and believer... until PPC 2000 came out... and I just couldn't quit drooling over a friends. Almost went into business with him, a move that would require me to ditch the palm. I did, never looked back after finding out what I was missing.

Not saying that palm users are more prone to be virus writers, but saying that a virus writer is prone to have a palm, not a PPC... clear as mud? :)

I agree that it would be very hard to put a virus out to attack PPC's... possible, but not as easy as a computer on the net.

Yes there is warez for PPC's, just as with Palms. *this* would be the first place i'd expect to find a virus... new very popular game/app and then a bunch of PPC warez sites pop up claiming to have it...

I know palm is still the holder of the market share, but I doubt it will be for much longer. If it wasn't for Sony I would have thought it would have shifted by now.
PPC taking over the market would give a virus author even more reason to hate MS...

It's going to happen, PalmOS will lose the top dog status, and somehow someway a virus or a wave of virus' will start popping up. Not right away, but eventualy. like if/when Palm goes under... when your only choice is between which brand... not which OS.
Odds are it will have to be a specific target like a mobile web page for PPC users... being a virus that attacks/abuses PIE.

I think PPC Warez, and a PPC mobile website would be the first instance it will pop up.


I agree with most here that the odds of virus' starting to crop up now, or in the near future is rather slim. I have seen the antivirus software for PPC, but I have never heard of any virus yet...


Still I think the whole virus threat is still very small now. Going into much more of a debate/discussion about this would be nothing but opinions being thrown about with nothing to back up either side at this point...

Once I see a virus in the wild. I'll consider a virus checker for the PPC, until then I won't lose much sleep over it.

[Pony99CA]

This is not going to happen until the majority of Pocket PCs are connected devices. Right now, there's no way to directly transmit worms or other viruses easily - thus a virus writer is not going to get an appreciable reach.

While a virus or a worm requires a connected device, a Trojan doesn't. Spreading a Trojan to the Pocket PC community, which craves new software, would be easy.

Create a Trojan program.
Post it at some freeware sites.
Post notifications about the hot new program (with fake screenshots) on the Pocket PC fan sites.
Sit back and enjoy the fun watching users whine at the sites after their data is corrupted or erased.

Yes, it would die out quickly, but I bet a hacker-loser could get some enjoyment out of it. For maximum damage, actually produce a fun little game and don't do any damage for a month or two to let word of mouth spread that the program works well. That has the added "benefit" of making it harder to detect exactly which program is the culprit.

A "virus checker" could check for Trojans, too. In fact, don't most of the major ones for the PC check for some Trojans and backdoor programs?

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

While a virus or a worm requires a connected device, a Trojan doesn't. Spreading a Trojan to the Pocket PC community, which craves new software, would be easy.
This is debatable. I think it wouldn't go anywhere, because it would be immediately decried. It's happened with "mediocre" apps before on these sites.

--janak

[Pony99CA]

While a virus or a worm requires a connected device, a Trojan doesn't. Spreading a Trojan to the Pocket PC community, which craves new software, would be easy.
This is debatable. I think it wouldn't go anywhere, because it would be immediately decried. It's happened with "mediocre" apps before on these sites.

I agree it would get shot down quickly if it were a pure Trojan that did damage immediately. That's why I suggested it should be a reasonably fun game (clone Bejeweled or something) with a payload that waited to activate for at least a month. That would give time for positive reviews to spread before unleashing havoc.

A smart writer would also ensure that you only needed to play the game once to set the payload. We know that some games are only interesting for a few days. :-)

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

I agree it would get shot down quickly if it were a pure Trojan that did damage immediately. That's why I suggested it should be a reasonably fun game (clone Bejeweled or something) with a payload that waited to activate for at least a month. That would give time for positive reviews to spread before unleashing havoc.
Ah, I missed that. Stupid question though - how would virus detectors know of this problem in that case?

--janak

[PetiteFlower]

I don't think Palm will ever die out completely. Just like Mac, there will always be a few holdouts :) Plus I think Palm is going to start trying to get into some of the functions that only PPC has now....so they will become more similar. But there are enough die hard palm fans now, that if the OS improves enough to compete with ppc, it will stick around stubbornly....

[Pony99CA]

I agree it would get shot down quickly if it were a pure Trojan that did damage immediately. That's why I suggested it should be a reasonably fun game (clone Bejeweled or something) with a payload that waited to activate for at least a month. That would give time for positive reviews to spread before unleashing havoc.
Ah, I missed that. Stupid question though - how would virus detectors know of this problem in that case?

Presumably the same way they detect viruses and Trojans now:

By testing software themselves for viruses. An anti-virus company can have a machine dedicated to testing software where they change the clock and see what happens. The large number of possibilities makes this impractical for many cases (for example, a virus that only triggers on a certain date at a certain time), but you can catch the simplistic ones.
By being notified that one exists and checking for it specifically. Yes, this could occur after damage has already been done, but it will prevent future infections.
By monitoring access patterns. For example, a program attempting to delete important files could be flagged as a virus.

That's why virus scanners can't just use signature files any more. New viruses come out, viruses can be polymorphic, etc.

That said, I don't think the Pocket PC detectors run in the background, do they? THey are just scanners, not live detectors, and so don't do usage analysis.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

Presumably the same way they detect viruses and Trojans now:
Exactly. So based on your list, the convenience of virus scanners is that they have large tables of software. When that numbers in the 5 range or so, the diminishing returns probably overrides the benefits. When it's 500+, then it's a different story.

That said, I don't think the Pocket PC detectors run in the background, do they? THey are just scanners, not live detectors, and so don't do usage analysis.
I believe that's the case. Eventually, we'll need background scanners. But no probs, we'll have 1GHz processors by then. :)

--janak

[guinness]

A PPC could get a virus, there's nothing holding anyone back from writing one, but viruses are generally targeted towards a popular and mainstream OS, ie Windows or maybe Palm. I don't think the people who write viruses and worms would spend their time writing for the PPC when they could go after Windows. I think that's why Macs don't hit as often as Windows, Windows is just more mainstream and therefore likely to attract more attention.

[TheBacklash]

The more i think about it, I still think the best way to get a virus out there is to hack a mobile webpage... that would cure one aspect of getting it to everyone. Or at least those that go to the site... like Mazingo or Avantgo... That would infect thousands upon thousands in less than an hour.

Still a virus being unleashed attacking PPC's only... I don't see it anytime soon, we still have time to have panic attacks over the topic :lol:

[Janak Parekh]

The more i think about it, I still think the best way to get a virus out there is to hack a mobile webpage... that would cure one aspect of getting it to everyone. Or at least those that go to the site... like Mazingo or Avantgo... That would infect thousands upon thousands in less than an hour.
You're assuming, of course, that people will run the binary on the webpage. On Pocket PCs it's not as easy to do so -- as a result you'll get much less widespread adoption.

--janak

[TheBacklash]

all you need is it to be synced to the PPC... do you check your links in Avantgo or mazingo? the link could fire up a virus... or the webpages you download are infected with code that will trash the PPC from within PIE... so when you open PPCthoughts inside Mazingo/avantgo that you synced up... you instead/also fire up the virul code embedded in the page... you don't need to infect the Mazingo/Avantgo software.they both use PIE to run. (Mazingo gives you the choice to not use PIE... but still)

Thats what I'm thinking.

[Janak Parekh]

all you need is it to be synced to the PPC...
Hmm, if the ActiveSync connection is active then you're indeed in trouble, if you allow the desktop to run the malicious code. But if that's the case and you don't have a virus scanner on the desktop, you've got bigger programs. :)

or the webpages you download are infected with code that will trash the PPC from within PIE...
That's my point. I don't think people have found vulnerabilities in PIE's handling of embedded JavaScript. Of course, it doesn't mean it's not there, but PIE is a primitive browser to start with. :)

--janak

[TheBacklash]

Thats my point as well...

Granted it's a primitive browser, you think MS will leave it that way forever?

I'm not saying it will happen soon, or thats the way it will happen either... that was just an example. You never know, just because the two of us don't sit around and think of new ways to crash our PPC's... doesn't mean somebody can't do it.... no matter how idiot proof you make things, somebody will come along and produce a bigger idiot... :roll:

[Janak Parekh]

Granted it's a primitive browser, you think MS will leave it that way forever?
No. I agree, in the future it'll be a big problem. Especially when devices are connected via high-speed wireless 99% of the time. I have to say though, I'll be looking forward to devices on which I have to worry about that problem. :D

--janak