HP Sued Over WordLogic Keyboard

[marlof]

<a href="http://makeashorterlink.com/?L270427E2">http://makeashorterlink.com/?L270427E2</a><br /><br />As you can see in a <a href="http://www.wordlogic.net/press/press-compaq-nov1.htm">press release</a>, in November 2001 WordLogic and Compaq were happy to announce the shipment of the WordLogic Predictive Keyboard with the Compaq iPAQ 3800 series. In July 2002 <a href="http://www.wordlogic.net/press/press-hp-jul16.htm">WordLogic announced</a> an agreement with HP that newer iPAQ 3900 and 5000 would come with a trial verion of the predictive keyboard. But there the happiness ends, since WordLogic is now suing HP on the explanation of their agreement. Did the new agreement and the purchase of Compaq by HP mean HP should stop shipping the full version with the 3800 series? WordLogic seems to think so. According to WordLogic a lot of money is at stake in this suit:<br /><br />"Hewlett-Packard was supposed to stop putting the full version of the software in the 3800 series, the suit contends. Yet it continued providing the full version in "several hundred thousand'' 3800 series iPAQs without paying WordLogic, the suit claims. WordLogic said it has lost "tens of millions of dollars'' because of Hewlett-Packard's actions. [...] Under the new agreement, WordLogic gets $18.95 and Hewlett- Packard gets $1 for each full version of the software downloaded by consumers for the 3900 and 5000 series devices. WordLogic's suit seeks $18.95 for every infringing 3800 series device sold, plus Hewlett-Packard's profits."<br /><br />Without knowledge of the content of the agreements it's hard to say who's right. Still I couldn't help smiling when I read the claim of losing tens of millions of dollars, as that probably only would have been the case if every 3800 series owner would have bought WordLogic. Therefore it sounds a bit strange to me that HP would have to buy the licenses of the product as shipped with previously sold 3800 devices at the full retail price, where many of the owners might not even use the product. Personally I did not see WordLogic as the major selling point of the 3800 series, although the software is cool. But I do not know a single person who has chosen WordLogic as his or her primary text entry method. I also don't know a single person who has bought WordLogic after using it for the trial period on the newer devices. Do you?

[Jaap van Ees]

Actually, I did buy it. I own both an English and a Dutch version. I use them all the time. For me, there's none better. :D

[marlof]

Actually, I did buy it. I own both an English and a Dutch version. I use them all the time. For me, there's none better. :D

Ha! That's what I hoped for, people stating they *did* care! :D Did you get it for the Dutch version first (since the Pocket PC doesn't come with an easy Dutch text entry), learned to love it, and then went for the English version? Or was it the other way round, or did you get them at the same time? I still need to advise people on the easiest Dutch text entry, and you're the first WordLogic user I meet, so I hope you don't mind my questions.

[Jaap van Ees]

Sure I care! Mark Dostie and Peter Knaven (and the other ppl at WordLogic who I don't know by name) are doing a great job. They deserve the support of their user community.
8)

[Jaap van Ees]

Yo Marlof, no problem with the questions. I got hooked to the English version first. Then I started bugging Mark Dostie for a Dutch version, offering my help in creating it. I didn't have to, because he had Peter Knaven already working on it. When it was done, I got the Dutch version. With some help by Mark I have installed the Dutch version as my primary keyboard, and the English version as my second. Both work great together.

:D :D :D

[marlof]

Well, I just bought the Dutch Full version to go on my Pocket PC, so we'll see how it holds out.

[Jaap van Ees]

Hope you enjoy it as much as I do. I love using it with TextMaker, creating lots of docs during my daily commute. 8)

[marlof]

That I will not do as I commute by car :). But at my work, they've recently ordered some iPAQs, and they wondered about the easiest Dutch text entry method on the English OS. I must say, I did like the idea of editing your own input methods. If I like the Dutch version, I'll ping you on using Dutch and English side by side, so I get to stick to one input method. OK, wordcompletion list editing, here I come. :D

[Jaap van Ees]

Hahahahaha! Actually, list editing is pretty easy. New words can be added on the fly and automatically, without user intervention. Only thing I do every now and then is correct a few typo's. One thing though, be sure to make regular backups of your personal.dic. I lost a particular big one after a hard reset. :wink:

[Ainvar]

I liked word logic for my 3800, but when I asked a question via there email tech support and a got a generic answer I uninstalled it and said screw it. I then went as far again as installing it and emailed them again about the same question and got another bogus answer. Basically the english dic and input pad are missing quite a few symbols that are needed and also trying to setup a mass persoanl dictionary for networking terms is not doable due to the missing symbols. I would buy word logic if they offered an upgrade or pay for the addon so I am able to create the symbols and words I need to make this product a hit. I lost trust and respect for this company when they do not try to offer support for something that would be simple on there end to provide and/or fix.

On a personal note, I think then suing HP for this is a joke. There will be no millions of dollars in lose cause this product is not for the masses. It is a good product for a select few and if those select few like it enough let wordlogic ask them for money. Suing a company just to get money for a product that does not do what it says it can do to me is a joke. HP has supported both 3800 series I have owned without a no pushback or silly generic or wrong questions. That is why they will get my money again and again. Good support and proper handling of my question, feedback, and concerns.

[PJE]

Sounds like Wordlogic are having financial problems... but this seems a dangerous way to find income. The "tens of millions of dollars" quoted as lost income is laughable at best.

I've never tried it (but might give it a trial after reading this...), but have bought full versions of Calligrapher and Fitaly.

My 2c

PJE

[aner]

I would like to add a 'me too' on behalf of word logic. I use the dutch version all the time. I am writing a fantasy novel with lots of strange words in it. Adding these words to the dictionary speeds up my writing considerably. After reading your positive reviews on fitaly I tried it for a while, but I abandoned it after a hard reset.

[GregWard]

After reading your positive reviews on fitaly I tried it for a while, but I abandoned it after a hard reset.

Isn't it interesting how often this happens? A "hard reset" is the ultimate quality definition (or change to a new device). Essential Apps get re-installed immediately. Useful apps get re-installed when you remember that you used to have them before the reset. Useless Apps get dumped after the reset - but, at least, you think about them. Total time wasters get forgotten completely!!!!

[Fzara]

That I will not do as I commute by car :). But at my work, they've recently ordered some iPAQs, and they wondered about the easiest Dutch text entry method on the English OS. I must say, I did like the idea of editing your own input methods. If I like the Dutch version, I'll ping you on using Dutch and English side by side, so I get to stick to one input method. OK, wordcompletion list editing, here I come. :D

I have a silly, random question: Have you ever tried to do something with your PPC while driving? I have. Once when it was snowing, on a small, dark road, I had a song playing in my car, and I wanted to see the lyrics to it. It was pretty dangerous, since I was swirving a couple times, but im alright. ;)

[christak]

Am I missing something?? Wordlogic that came with my 3950 appears to be a "full" version not a trial... Why all the talk about the 3800???

[marlof]

I have a silly, random question: Have you ever tried to do something with your PPC while driving?

Yes. But I have a car holder, and checking if there's new e-mail is only two taps on the screen with my finger. Changing the channel on my radio is more work. Reading the e-mail is only done when I'm standing still 'though.

[Daniel]

I only ever bought the full version of Calligrapher, just a little bit better than Transcriber.

Daniel

[Pony99CA]

I'm no lawyer, but as far as I understand things, there are only three ways that Compaq's contract would be invalidated in this scenario.

1. There was a sunset provision in the original contract, so the contract ended after a specific time or event.

2. There was language that prevented someone acquiring the company from using that contract. I believe when one company acquires another, legal agreements are still in force. This prevents a company from getting out of a bad contract by spinning off a new "company" with that contract, the acquiring it later.

3. HP's contract with WordLogic specifically said that the 3800 could no longer ship with the keyboard (or maybe some similar language like "the above provisions constitute the sole contract between WordLogic and HP").

If none of those occurred, I think HP would be allowed to continue shipping the WordLogic keyboard with iPAQ 3800s.

WordLogic's claim of damages seems laughable, as they allowed Compaq to ship the keyboard for free, so what damages are there now? True, they might lose some money, but if HP hadn't bought Compaq, they would have lost that money anyway.

However, I can certainly understand why WordLogic would want $18.95 per keyboard shipped. Regardless of whether or not the user actually wanted or used the software, the user does have it, and could use it.

As for whether I would have paid for WordLogic if I only had a demo on my 3870, the answer is no. I did install WordLogic, but never really used it and eventually uninstalled it.

Steve

[marlof]

WordLogic's claim of damages seems laughable, as they allowed Compaq to ship the keyboard for free, so what damages are there now? True, they might lose some money, but if HP hadn't bought Compaq, they would have lost that money anyway.

However, I can certainly understand why WordLogic would want $18.95 per keyboard shipped. Regardless of whether or not the user actually wanted or used the software, the user does have it, and could use it.

It all depends on the terms of the original contract. If that was unlimited, I can't see too much damages. If the agreement was for a specific period of time, or amount of units sold, or had any other ending term (like you explained in your post) and HP broke that, there were damages.

I can't see why WordLogic would want $18.95 though, since I can't imagine Compaq had to pay full dollar for the license per unit in the original contract. These contracts are drawn with the idea in mind that it's a selling point for a certain percentage of people, and that only a certain percentage of people would use the program. The price per unit would not be the same as the retail price. Now WordLogic is trying to force HP to pay retail price, where they couldn't do that before.

Asking for $18.95 per sold unit means that you feel you've lost that amount of money. Every 3800 series owner has a full version of WordLogic. But I find it hard to believe WordLogic has lost $18.95 per unit, since in my opinion not too many of those 3800 series owners would have bought the product.

It will be interesting to see what comes of all this.

[Pony99CA]

I can't see why WordLogic would want $18.95 though, since I can't imagine Compaq had to pay full dollar for the license per unit in the original contract. These contracts are drawn with the idea in mind that it's a selling point for a certain percentage of people, and that only a certain percentage of people would use the program. The price per unit would not be the same as the retail price. Now WordLogic is trying to force HP to pay retail price, where they couldn't do that before.

Well, I can see why they're asking for that much -- it maximizes their claim. :-) True, Compaq probably didn't pay that much; they probably had the equivalent of a site license for any user buying a 3800 series iPAQ.


Asking for $18.95 per sold unit means that you feel you've lost that amount of money. Every 3800 series owner has a full version of WordLogic. But I find it hard to believe WordLogic has lost $18.95 per unit, since in my opinion not too many of those 3800 series owners would have bought the product.

I agree that it's not likely that every user would have bought the WordLogic keyboard, but, as you pointed out, every user does have it, so WordLogic can reasonably claim they should have their cut of the money for that.

How else would you argue your damages? I suppose you could take the ratio of WordLogic buys for 3900 iPAQs to total sales of 3900 series iPAQs, multiply that ratio by the number of infringing 3800 iPAQ sales and multiply that by $18.95, but that's less money, more work and just a guess using statistics.

In a way, it's similar to how software manufacturers claim losses for piracy. They assume that every pirated copy of their program is a lost sale, but in reality many people probably wouldn't have bought their program at full price. If anything, it may be a lost sale for a competitor with a less expensive product. 8O

Steve

[Doug Raeburn]

I was an early adopter of WordLogic when it came with my iPAQ 3800 series. I even bought a second license to use on my other Pocket PC. Since then, I do have to say that I've gotten a bit disillusioned with the lack of updates in the product. The lack of certain amenities provided by other solutions, such as the upstroke for caps, alt keys and tab keys, hasn't been addressed... basically, the product is unchanged since it was introduced.

A couple of months ago, I sent an e-mail to their support people, asking if there were any plans for an update. The message went unanswered.

I've decided to start working with Fitaly again, since I'm less than thrilled with the WordLogic people at this point. :x