Integrated 802.11b = Bad Idea

[jzdziarski]

Just curious what people think of this; being that pencomputing hasn't got working forums up, I've been wondering if people are concerned about their new 5450 or 740's integrated WiFi becoming obsolete, or if consumers are still in "upgrade every 6 months" mode.

http://www.pencomputing.com/frames/wifi.html

[Gremmie]

No, why kill an idea when you can work harder at a universal solution (i.e. battery efficiency).

[mashtim]

Well, honestly, I AM in "upgrade every 6-8 months" mode, however integrated WiFi is still a good idea, regardless. 802.11b has been around for 2-4 years already without a viable successor.
802.11a has finally appeared, but is more of a competitor than a replacement.
802.11g looks promising, but won't be a reality for another year, at least. 802.11g has a better chance than 802.11a because 802.11g is at least backwards-compatible with 802.11b. This is what will make or break a new wireless standard, not speed. 802.11b is far too widespread now for another standard to replace it. The BEST a new standard can hope for is to partner with 802.11b and offer the ability to upgrade without making a company/consumer scrap their entire network.
To make a long answer short, WiFi is King right nowand will only be pushed off the hill if it is done by a "partner", not a "challenger".

[jzdziarski]

802.1x isn't a replacement for 802.11b, it's an authentication layer that rides on top of it...Extensible Authentication Protocol. You'll need it to get on newer networks that require a un/pw or do dynamic WEP keys. For example, Microsoft, MIT, and Georgia College... and it sends the packets over the ethernet frame so your 802.11b card has to support 802.1x to get on the network.

[Gremmie]

Good point...even in more detail...the problem with current wireless is that traffic can be rerouted and neither side would know it. 802.1x is a port level security, when data is sent, both the server and client are aware where the data should go and cannot be rerouted without either side knowing.

I wonder though, what are the power effects of having a dual chipset (802.11a/802.11b) inside a PDA.

[jzdziarski]

They probably share one radio so it's probably not very noticeable. On the other hand if there are two radios, you'd want to turn one off to conserve power.

[Janak Parekh]

I'm not so worried; 802.11b sans 802.1x is not going anywhere anytime soon. And since when do people on this board keep their PDA's for years on end? ;)

Also, it's not clear to me why 802.1x can't be added via ROM updates. If someone has more info, let me know. I'll have to deploy it sooner or later, anyway.

--janak

[Gremmie]

Well, I think I saw an InfoSync that the next CE .NET core will be supporting advance networking/IP protocols, so maybe they just want to hold out until Q1.

[jzdziarski]

802.1x requires low level ethernet frames to be passed; it may be possible to update with firmware but AFAICT you also need additional memory pages in the card, warranting a new chipset. Definitely not a ROM update.

[Janak Parekh]

802.1x requires low level ethernet frames to be passed; it may be possible to update with firmware but AFAICT you also need additional memory pages in the card, warranting a new chipset. Definitely not a ROM update.
Thanks for the info. I've been avoiding studying 802.1x, but it's time to go reading. :)

In any case, you still don't lose by having integrated Wi-Fi. You can turn it off and plug in a card; and those aren't going to be available for at least 6 months anyway. The utility of having Wi-Fi integrated is tremendous: I keep on forgetting my card when I leave my office, and at our university, at least, we do not do any encryption at the network layer (we do entirely application-layer encryption), so the appeal of the 5450 is tremendous to me. My coworker, who has a e740, uses the integrated Wi-Fi all the time.

In any case, I guess it would be safe to say be careful, based on what application/environment you're using, as to which solution is best for you. I think it's premature to say, though, that 802.1x negates integrated 802.11b.

--janak

[umichboy]

When 802.11b becomes obsolete (In a few years) I will probably have a newer handheld. If I still use my 5450 then, I will buy an SDIO or CF card to replace it with the new technology. What I'm saying is that you can always turn off the built-in stuff, so it doesn't really hurt to have it. :)

[FredMurphy]

Socket will be adding 802.1x (http://www.socketcom.com/about/press/read.asp?ID=73) via a software update so I guess this would be a good sign that it should be possible to update PPCs with integrated 802.11b too.

I agree that switching standards will be slow enough that most people (and definitely most of us here) will replace the device anyway. Personally I want to stick with a device with integrated CF slot as that's where all the new peripherals appear first. No integrated Wi-Fi or Bluetooth on my "retro" 568 - no problem!

Fred

[jzdziarski]

This has got to include a firmware update in their software at the very least, unless they already included the chipset and just need to update their drivers.

[Janak Parekh]

This has got to include a firmware update in their software at the very least, unless they already included the chipset and just need to update their drivers.
That's my point--it's probably a firmware update. We'll have to watch closely to see what range of devices will support 802.1x. It's possible it'll be greater than you think. Let's hope. :)

--janak

[Jimmy Dodd]

Looking at this from another angle, when I upgrade my e740 to another wi-fi capable PPC I'll be buying wi-fi again. If I had a CF wi-fi card then I wouldn't have to pay for the same feature a second time. Case in point, I have the same CF ethernet card and CF modem that I bought four generations of PPC ago. I'd hate to think about buying a built in modem and ethernet card four times.

Perhaps the e740 will bring in more $$ when I sell it second-hand because of the wi-fi, but I doubt it'll make up the difference. I'm starting to think that modularizing as much of my PPC as possible would be a good idea.

[Janak Parekh]

Looking at this from another angle, when I upgrade my e740 to another wi-fi capable PPC I'll be buying wi-fi again. If I had a CF wi-fi card then I wouldn't have to pay for the same feature a second time. Case in point, I have the same CF ethernet card and CF modem that I bought four generations of PPC ago. I'd hate to think about buying a built in modem and ethernet card four times.
There's a difference, though, between a wired and a wireless solution: with integrated WiFi, you can just grab the PPC and run. With a wired solution, you need wires anyway, so carrying the card is not a major additional factor.

I can't count the number of times I left my desk, took my PPC, and smacked myself for forgetting the Wi-Fi card when I got stuck in an impromptu meeting. :(

--janak

[Gremmie]

I can't count the number of times I left my desk, took my PPC, and smacked myself for forgetting the Wi-Fi card when I got stuck in an impromptu meeting. :(

--janak

Same here, worse yet, I can't count how many times I have forgotten my PPC when I needed it most. So I always have to call the office...damnit, forgot the cell phone too :)

[Jimmy Dodd]

Looking at this from another angle, when I upgrade my e740 to another wi-fi capable PPC I'll be buying wi-fi again. If I had a CF wi-fi card then I wouldn't have to pay for the same feature a second time. Case in point, I have the same CF ethernet card and CF modem that I bought four generations of PPC ago. I'd hate to think about buying a built in modem and ethernet card four times.
There's a difference, though, between a wired and a wireless solution: with integrated WiFi, you can just grab the PPC and run. With a wired solution, you need wires anyway, so carrying the card is not a major additional factor.

I can't count the number of times I left my desk, took my PPC, and smacked myself for forgetting the Wi-Fi card when I got stuck in an impromptu meeting. :(

--janak

I agree, but I was speaking from a purely economic issue. I would have thought that if you had a wireless card it would just live in your PPC all the time so you wouldn't have to remember to pick it up. I keep forgetting about the iPaq owners with no built-in CF slot, though. I can see not wanting to carry around the sleeve all day in that situation.

Funny side note. I often find myself in meetings without a pen these days. I have gotten so used to using my PPC over the years for notes, etc. that I never remember to bring something to write on (gasp!) paper. :lol:

[Janak Parekh]

I agree, but I was speaking from a purely economic issue. I would have thought that if you had a wireless card it would just live in your PPC all the time so you wouldn't have to remember to pick it up. I keep forgetting about the iPaq owners with no built-in CF slot, though. I can see not wanting to carry around the sleeve all day in that situation.
Actually, I carry the CF+ sleeve 99% of the time. But I have a Microdrive in it. Carrying the wireless card is a pain unless I adopt SD memory, which is not cheap.

Funny side note. I often find myself in meetings without a pen these days. I have gotten so used to using my PPC over the years for notes, etc. that I never remember to bring something to write on (gasp!) paper. :lol:
I never carry a pen anymore either ;) If someone needs something written down, it's their problem if they don't have a pen :D

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Same here, worse yet, I can't count how many times I have forgotten my PPC when I needed it most. So I always have to call the office...damnit, forgot the cell phone too :)
Sorry, can't help you with this one. Make sure you don't forget yourself on your way to work. :lol:

--janak