Modern Day "Slavery"?

[Andy Sjostrom]

The most apparent trend in the mobile devices market is that we get more for less. It is not surprising since the IT industry has lived and grown by that trend since the beginning and will most likely continue to do so. Product price is dependent on many factors including software licenses, hardware components and wages. I am not an economist, but I understand that a company operating in a market where price is a critical success factor has to make sure that the entire business process is cost efficient.<br /><br />Do you know where your Pocket PC was built? It was most likely built in Taiwan, Malaysia or perhaps China. The reason why it was built in one of these countries is "wages". I recently saw a documentary about the company Flextronics on TV. Flextronics is one of the largest device manufacturers in the world and has production plants in many low-wage countries. The documentary moved me and I have to ask myself: Do I play a part in modern day slavery? <!><br /><br />One of the plants Flextronics operates in China has more than 11,000 workers. They are all, with few exceptions, young women between 17 and 20 years old. The women come from small villages, often far away from the production plants. "The younger they are, the faster they work", said a native Flextronics manager and his colleague from the US added "They are very good at repeatability". The President of Flextronics' analysis on moving more production to China included the statement: "The people are hungry, so they work well". The young women live at the plant, sharing sleeping quarters with seven others. A young worker exclaimed: "It is good here. We have both hot and cold water."<br /><br />However, despite modern day slavery-like working conditions, all young women appearing in the documentary seemed to be happy to work for Flextronics. On this matter, the documentary seemed to say that working for Flextronics is, to them, a ticket away from village life, an opportunity to help support their families and a way to more modern, urban life. An average monthly salary was said to be about $500 and that is much more than the yearly $200-$300 that her family in the village can make. The facilities were clean and very well organized. But all those aspects aside, I have no doubt that Flextronics has the better deal. The attitude shown by top executives towards these young women, the heroes of the mobile device market, scares me.<br /><br />Since mobile devices have been around for more than three years, the analytical observer has to ask what happens to workers as they pass 20 years of age. Apparently, they work under a three year contract which, in my opinion, effectively keeps wages down and makes union activities impossible.<br /><br />The financial wealth these production plants generates undoubtedly helps build a better society and welfare in these countries, but how much can the workers be exploited before it in fact becomes modern day slavery? I buy mobile devices and inspire others to do the same. What responsibility do companies like Microsoft and HP have? What is my responsibility?

[Take1]

It would be interesting to see the plants where today's PDAs are made. Interestingly, my NR-70 was made in JAPAN! I did a double-take when I saw the label. Most electronics are made in China, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and Taiwan. We here in the US also see alot of Mexican made electronics (NAFTA).

[exsilio]

Sorry, but this hardly news. While I appreciate you writing this article...it is nothing new.

Nike

Kathie Lee Gifford Clothing

Flextronics

Any many, many others.

It's all about one thing...money. Or more to the point, profit, and lots of it.

Why else can someone work their butt off in a factory for an entire YEAR and yet the CEO of the company that person works for makes more in one HOUR?

I live in one of the most affluent areas in the world...and I see the huge gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' all the time. And it disgust me. Why does the migrant worker need to hold down 3 jobs just to try to cover rent, in a crappy apartment, to put food on his family's plate, no going out for dinner, and clothes on their back, the good stuff from Goodwill and the Salvation Army, or maybe he's been saving for Wal-Mart or Pic N Save? And his kids go to the crappy schools, and get the crappy grades because he and his wife who is working 18 hours a day can't be there with their children like the well to do families.

Yet, just down the block, there is the family, like many others that just bought their 2nd BMW, but they had to save up, afterall, their home cost 1.5mil to buy and another 300k to redo it. But at least not all is lost, Nordies is having a sale this week and they were able to get reservations at the $50 an entree restaurant. And be sure to save the money for their kids college funds...no community college for them...state college at a minimum.

Seeing a trend here? Nothing new Andy, it's all as the song goes...

"...whatever may come, the world keeps revolving, they say the next big thing is here, that the revolution's near, but to me it seems quite clear, that it's all just a little bit of history repeating."

Roman caste system

French aristocracy

Middle class America (you know, the one that is shrinking until there will be just two classes...low and high)

I am no activist, I have owned my fair share of luxury cars, I have eaten in fine restaurants,a nd lived in nice places...and I have seen the disparity between the people in my area of the US. And it's unsettling. And I really have no idea what more I can do, and that makes it tougher. How much do I need? What is enough? How much should I give back? Do I deserve all that I have? Do they deserve all that they don't have? Do they deserve to work so muc for so little?

What about those people working for companies like flextronics. Why are they doing work for American companies? They are cheap, they are plentiful and they are desperate...it certainly beats working in the fields somewhere. Afterall, I am sure they have a nice place to work over in Malaysia...air conditioning, a steady pay check...isn't that enough? Well, that is how the American companies see it.

Profit, profit, profit. American unemployment rate is up...jobs go overseas...need the profit...stockholders want their percentage...profit...CEOs, VP's, Mangers, need that bonus...outsource American jobs to 3rd world areas, we can pay them less, increase our margins, bump up our stock options and all drive nice cars, and wear nice clothes.

So Andy, to answer your question, yes, yes you do play a part in slavery...but will it keep you, me or anyone else for that matter from contributing further? No. We all still will buy as we have.

Global change requires global interest...there is none, thus, there will be no change. Makes you wonder...how far have we really come as a society?

[cherring]

I think there are 3 comments I'd like to make. The first is that exploitation of workers has more to do with the way they are handled at the factory than where they live. Yes they are doing repetative work, but I would expect in any factory there are people doing repetative work. The company sounds like they provide accomodation for the employees in what seems to be a "hostel." It's probably cheaper than getting a place for themselves. I'm sure that most of them choose to live there because it is relatively comfortable. If our rural communities here are anything to go by, entire families, possibly 3 sometimes 4 generations live in close quarters. The huts they live in often only have one or two rooms without any running water. Under the assumption that the young girls come from similar rural environments, "bunking" with others may not be such a big deal.

The second comment has to do with what they are paid. I earn the equivalent of $1 300 and thought I was really well off until a little while ago. My standard of living is really high here because I can do so much more with that than I could in the USA, or the UK. For example, a big mac costs the equivalent of $1 here, I expect it's much more expensive in other parts of the world. My point is only that a flat calculation of exchange rates doesn't mean people are being paid badly.

My third comment is that by no means am I insensitive to the possibility of "slave" labour. There are people working in appalling conditions for what, even in their terms, is far too little money, leaving them with no choice but to live in some kind of squalour. I think back to the well documented incident involving nike and young children working in hazardous environments with hazardous material. What I am trying to say is that by your standards, this may sound like slavery, but slavery is such a strong word, you have to think carefully about using it. Flexitron can, as others have tried to, have much less concern for their employees wellbeing.

I'll truncate my post here without commenting on unionisation and the possible futures for a 21 year old girl having come to the end of her contract as a labourer in a factory.

[Andy Sjostrom]

nothing new.

I know. Which makes me sad. Just because it isn't "new" does not mean we should not discuss it, in my opinion.

[scoopster]

Let's clear up a thing here, and also review a little about industrialization as it has been carried out over the last century-plus.

1) Flextronics is not an American company; it is a Singaporean company.

2) Most every industrialized country in the world has gone through a period in which large numbers of people work in various types of factories...and in supposedly 'terrible' 'oppressing' 'slavery-like' conditions. Remember the book (I forget the author) about the atrocities of the meat-packing industry in America? Have you ever been inside a steel mill, even one in the US, even today...more than 100 degrees (F) all day with soot all over your body...?

3) Factory conditions:
a)As an engineering manager working for an American company who makes a lot of visits to China to build products at factories like Flextronics, I can assure you that the working conditions in these tech-product factories are far better than the (mostly American) media has lead you to believe. Food and housing are provided, as well as an air-conditioned working environment with regularly scheduled break times. In addition, the workers invariably have a chair. In constrast, as recently as 30 years ago, American factory workers stood all day without break times---my mother, (who just took a vacation to China and toured a couple of the factories I work in) worked at P&G during college in the late 60's....and stood all day without breaks boxing up bottles of mouthwash. She thought the workers in the computer factories she visited had much better working conditions than she herself had.
b) These workers (yes, they are mostly 17-25 year old girls) often come from the poor inner provinces. They come by choice to earn money...they are not forced into slavery, so please do not apply that word. And they do earn money, up to ten times as much as if they stayed in their home towns/provinces.
c) Unions are illegal in China....so the companies are not oppressing workers by putting them under a one-year (rarely longer) contract.
d) Treatment of workers is indeed a key part of the whole situation. In general, the workers building PDAs, Computers, mobile phones, etc are not completely un-skilled workers. Further, the products they build are often complex, and the product lines (and corresponding assembly processes) change frequently. Consequently, it is in the companies' best interest to keep the workers well-trained, interested, and happy. The companies I work with all have regular worker training sessions, performance review (weekly and monthly) and take pride in keeping their worker turnover rates low. To illustrate: one factory owner moved his high-tech factory from Guangdong province to the Shanghai area. More than half his workers chose to move with the factory because they appreciated the work enviroment and they way they were treated; those who didn't move usually had roots or other ties to the Guangdong area.
e) Note that there are certain industries (namely toys, shoes, and certain textiles) which have less-desireable working conditions than tech factories. However, in all cases, the people are choosing to work in these factories. China is very much a capitalist and meritocratic society as regards blue-collar labor.

[Andy Sjostrom]

Cherring, thanks for your reply.
I don't have the answers to all this. I realize that working for Flextronics is most likely a net positive thing for these young women. What worries me, though, is that they as a group is so weak compared to the company. In a market where there are so many more people than jobs, I believe profit making is a higher priority than working conditions in all decisions.

I don't believe we'll solve anything in this discussion. In fact, I expect most to disagree with me even on the point that it is in fact something to discuss.

Slavery is a strong word. Perhaps, too strong in this context. By using it I hope to get more people to at least think about it once and make up their minds about it. I didn't say this is slavery. I ask the question. Our Pocket PCs do not grow on trees. Someone made them. I don't want them if the answer is "yes".

[scoopster]

You don't choose Coke over Pepsi (or vice versa) just because the media tells you one tastes better, right? No, I suspect you go to the store take a look, have a taste, and come to your own conclusions.

Same goes for making judgements on someone else's life (working conditions, pay, whatever).

Find out first-hand, and then draw your own conclusions. But don't go to China looking for socialism and equal-opportunity handouts for all....it's a free market, both for goods and for labor.

[Timothy Rapson]

This is a topic that I should probably be too old, jaded, conservative, and tired to care about.

But, I still find myself recently challenged by a friend at work who documented some of the abuses of workers in Chinese WalMart manufacturing partner factories. So I look to WalMart last when I go shopping. I have not boycotted them altogether, but I am prioritizing them down due to their role in the exploitation.

Yet, I do think that shops like those described by Scoopster offer a chance for the prosperity we enjoy in the US to spread worldwide. Less developed nations have to start somewhere. The post from South Africa from someone who happily makes a tiny fraction of what I do as a US postal letter carrier is also encouraging.

Regarding PDAs, I would pay a 10% or even $25% premium to a company that produced their goods in a union shop, or any shop that has good employee policies.

[cherring]

I agree that when I have reason to believe a brand or company is getting product to me by cutting corners like safety equipment or acceptable working conditions, I also refuse to buy said product. I try to make sure that is the case, though.

With regards to the paying a premium for a union shop product etc, I would question whether manufacturers would list "produced in a union shop" or "we have good employee policies" as a feature or a criteria for buying their product. I think one has to make a decision for oneself based on the information they have and what they are comfortable with.

P.S. What does a big mac go for these days?

[Pony99CA]

You don't choose Coke over Pepsi (or vice versa) just because the media tells you one tastes better, right? No, I suspect you go to the store take a look, have a taste, and come to your own conclusions.

Same goes for making judgements on someone else's life (working conditions, pay, whatever).

Find out first-hand, and then draw your own conclusions. But don't go to China looking for socialism and equal-opportunity handouts for all....it's a free market, both for goods and for labor.
Sorry, but it's not the same. Things I eat, I choose based on taste, nutrition and price. Things I know don't have those same requirements.

Life is too short to find out everything first-hand. We have to trust some people sometime, and the press is often one of those entities we place our trust in. Oftentimes, we're like juries, deciding things based on the weight of the evidence presented, without actually having gathered that evidence. With information overload getting worse, people will be taking more on faith, not less.

Also, there will be some things some people just don't care about. We may talk about them, but really don't care one way or the other. Consider Miami vs. Ohio State in the BCS Championship Game, for example. I'll talk about it, I'll probably watch it, but I don't like either team and hope they both lose. :-)

And, yes, there are some things people don't care to know about. Ignorance is bliss.

I'm not saying that that's an ideal situation, just pragmatic. People want to be happy and spend time doing things they want to do. So they won't investigate everything themselves, and they'll be blissfully ignorant about some things. That's human nature.

Have you gone back and investigated first-hand (or as close to first-hand as possible) everything you learned in textbooks in school? Many older textbooks weren't always accurate, and we learn more every day. Unless you have, telling other people to find out everything first-hand will smack of hypocrisy. It's a noble suggestion, but not really practical.

Steve

[shawnc]

Very poor choice of titles to compare such a trivial subject to slavery. Go ahead, FLAME away readers. I don't care! The title is in POOR taste. I expect better from PPCT.

[scoopster]

Sorry, but it's not the same. Things I eat, I choose based on taste, nutrition and price. Things I know don't have those same requirements.

That's precisely my point....what constitues "knowing" about something....? I don't think you would claim to know about Flextronics factory conditions unless you had seen the "nutritional content" and "tasted" the factory...or would you?


Life is too short to find out everything first-hand. We have to trust some people sometime, and the press is often one of those entities we place our trust in. Oftentimes, we're like juries, deciding things based on the weight of the evidence presented, without actually having gathered that evidence. With information overload getting worse, people will be taking more on faith, not less.


I absolutely agree that we have to make judgements about, and use, information we receive nth-hand. What bothers me is that some people become very fanatical about current issues without having accurate facts. I don't mind that a person has an opinion based on nth-hand information at all, but I do mind when someone radically promotes (or tries to convert other people to) that opinion without having confirmed the information that informed his/her decision.

[krisbrown]

These people are attracting multi national companies, by offering all they have, cheap labour, but slowly the conditions will improve, the country will prosper and every one benefits.
You've got to remember that for the vast majority of the people on Earth life is a piece of sh** by our western standards.

[Andy Sjostrom]

Very poor choice of titles to compare such a trivial subject to slavery. Go ahead, FLAME away readers. I don't care! The title is in POOR taste. I expect better from PPCT.

I honestly don't understand what you mean, shawnc. The title asks a question. In my opinion, the phrasing of that question is not totally off. The President of Flextronics says, right in front of the camera, that the people work well because they are hungry...

Of course, I realize that slavery is an incredibly strong word and I don't want to even come close of being disrespectful to those who have suffered under it and perhaps still do.

I apologize to those who feel offended by the title of the post. It was not my intention to offend, but to initiate a discussion about the conditions the workers in this market live under.

[cherring]

The President of Flextronics says, right in front of the camera, that the people work well because they are hungry...

I thought it meant they were hungry for jobs. Is it possible it could have been a metaphor?

[scoopster]

I honestly don't understand what you mean, shawnc. The title asks a question. In my opinion, the phrasing of that question is not totally off. The President of Flextronics says, right in front of the camera, that the people work well because they are hungry...


I understand your intent. But to draw a parallel between slavery Flex's President's comments shows a misunderstanding of slavery. Slaves didn't work because they were hungry (though they probably oftentimes were)....they worked because they were conscripted and wanted to avoid being severely beaten/abused. The big difference there (in terms of work motivation) is probably what's touching shawnc's nerves.

At the same time, Flex's President, (if he really said they people are working well because they're hungry) doesn't really understand China very well. By and large, hunger or starvation is not a problem in China; upward socioeconomic mobility is, however, and that is what motivates this worker....to have enough money to move to the bright lights and opportunity of the big coastal cities.

[Timothy Rapson]

P.S. What does a big mac go for these days?

A real big Mac cost about $2.50, but you can go to the "special" menu and always find a comparable sandwich at Burger King, Wendys, or such place for .99cents.

So, you are a US national just living in SA? Or a former US resident back in SA?

[cherring]

I'm from SA, born and bred. I did some travelling a while ago and found I was eating big macs more than anything else wherever I went. Have you heard of the big mac index?

[nishka]

Throughout nearly every industrialized nation's history there are periods where a majority of the workers are in repetetive labor oriented jobs, and don't have the kinds of labor protections we have in the United States. And for all of the sob stories here, the simple fact is none of us are going to toss out our fancy toys tommorow because of worker plight overseas. We'll still wear Gap clothes, buy fancy electronics, play with our pocketpc's, and eat McDonald's hamburgers. Until you're ready to give up every luxury we have as a wealthy nation, please don't complain. And please don't complain until you look at the facts surrounding a nation's development and industrialization.

My grandfather came to this country at the age of 7 around 1905-1910. He couldn't speak English, and didn't have a pot to pee in! He went to school during when he could and worked at a button factory for long hours (before child labor laws, of course). He earned and saved up enough money to bring over his six brothers and sisters who were being persecuted by the Russians and Poles in Eastern Europe. He retired a wealthy man.

The simple fact here is that these countries in question are just beginning their industrialization and modernization. These countries have been devoid of wealth for centuries and now they are finally gaining the opportunity to compete in this world. Let's take a look at the situation in China, since my business does quite a bit of purchasing from Chinese factories:

1. Workers are provided with dormitory apartments.
2. Health coverage is included
3. Meals are provided
4. Pay, while low by American standards, is considerably more than they could earn anywhere else in the country. Many of these people came from poverty so terrible that NONE of us could even begin to imagine the squalid conditions these people were raised in. The workers spend a good part of the year working and sending money home, IMPROVING IMPOVERISHED AREAS.

How many American companies do YOU know of that provide these services domestically? How many American workers are without any sort of decent health insurance and scrape to have a roof over their heads? Perhaps the real oppression is here at home, eh?

As the economy progresses in China and throughout Asia, you will begin to see a shift. Labor organizations will form, occupational safety laws will become more strict, and things will progress. Boycotting these products is probably the worst thing for people trying to improve their lives and their country. Globalization has had a tremendously positive effect on this planet. Business partners know it's not in their best interest to go to war, and impoverished nations throughout the world are slowly building a middle class. So please take a look at the facts before spewing off the ignorant and destructive anti-globalization message.

[shawnc]

Very poor choice of titles to compare such a trivial subject to slavery. Go ahead, FLAME away readers. I don't care! The title is in POOR taste. I expect better from PPCT.

I honestly don't understand what you mean, shawnc. The title asks a question. In my opinion, the phrasing of that question is not totally off. The President of Flextronics says, right in front of the camera, that the people work well because they are hungry...

Of course, I realize that slavery is an incredibly strong word and I don't want to even come close of being disrespectful to those who have suffered under it and perhaps still do.

I apologize to those who feel offended by the title of the post. It was not my intention to offend, but to initiate a discussion about the conditions the workers in this market live under.

Andy,

I don't expect you to understand. I don't expect many of your readers to understand. I'm sure you didn't mean any harm, but IMHO the choice of words is poor.

No big deal. I've had my say. I don't want to change what this thread is all about. Now we can move on.

[don dre]

The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household
2.A condition of subjection or submission characterized by lack of freedom of action or of will.
Obviously we are not dealing with slavery per se and so while the title may be provocative, there isn't much merit. Generally this type of thing is called slavery by communist/socialist extremists attempting to win a media war with propaganda. I check the imc.org boards from time to time and regularly see this type of accusation. Now, citing numbers is absolutely pointless and, at best, misleading if no context is provided. they should either be provided in adjusted US dollars or with some sort of measuring stick. Finally, the assumption that working conditions should always be a consideration over profit is a socialist tenet and is a higly debatable assumption in itself. A true capitalist might argue that working conditions are tied to profits. Western standards of living were certaintly achieved with high profits. you can't put the cart before the horse. It's nice that we have working conditions that are tolerable by historical standards but they didn't come because some union demanded them. In fact, even prior to unions working conditions were improving. It is no coincidence that they improved as the productivity of labor increased which is highly dependent on excess capital which is derived from profit. In fact, many western countries have abandoned capitalism for semi-socialist or socialist states which rely on Marx. Keynes, and Bizmarck for the most part. However, it is unclear whether this model can ever work. Most western states are dealing with unemployment problems due to lack of competitiveness. In short, unions have helped to make production unprofitable. In fact, Europe and the US are highly protective markets and therefore unfree. The real question is, can the West sustain their welfare states when competition arises. If the West doesn't produce profits, the living standards will eventually fall. Just a few thoughts. As my Australian colleagues say, Cheers!

[Andy Sjostrom]

Thanks, nishka, for your comments. I agree with most of what you are saying.

Throughout nearly every industrialized nation's history there are periods where a majority of the workers are in repetetive labor oriented jobs

True. I would say that we find repetetive labor oriented jobs everywhere. Perhaps it is appropriate to state that I don't see anything wrong in repetetive labor oriented jobs. Heck, some even like to do them and the rest of us should be glad someone is willing to take them.

And please don't complain until you look at the facts surrounding a nation's development and industrialization.

I am not complaining. I am asking a question and hope to plant thoughts about the real workers of this industry and their conditions. I am not anti-globalization and if you felt I "spewed off an ignorant and destructive anti-globalization message" then I am sorry. Not my intention.

The fact of the matter is that these young women work under conditions and for salaries none of us would accept. I am not saying this is wrong per definition given how the world looks today, but I expect companies I do business with to stay away from wrongfully exploiting their workers.

If nothing else, I hope that if we don't forget about these aspects we stand a better chance to improve the conditions of those who are less better off than we.

[jeasher]

Blah Blah Blah

Who cares? All this concern from a crowd that would spend hours looking for the best deal. Willing to pay a premium for domestically paid goods? Bulls***.

These people are much better off with any factory over there. I don't care what the working conditions are because if they don't like it, they can leave. They average factory provides at minimum food and lodging. I work for a company with factories located throughout SE Asia and I can tell you the workers are pretty damn happy to have the opportunities they have.

To the guy railing about the class differences in the USA: get a grip dude. Maybe you should ponder this over a $50 bottle of whine at your next luxury dining spot. Let me break it down for you. The Mexican immigrant that you pay to mow your lawn will someday be in great shape. You want to know why? Because he works 18 hours a week and his kids go to school. And I doubt they get crapppy grades because the kids see how their parents work and want to improve their life. The parents work so their kids can have a better life and the kids know it. Just because they may go to an underpriviledged school doesn't mean kids can't learn. Should immigrants to this country just be given things? Other than a job, no. You think my grandparents were given anything? No, they worked their ASS off. From there, every generation became better educated and now my family can boast professionals. Thats how it's done in America son.

[cherring]

jeasher, you sound very condescending. Besides, what is a $50 bottle of whine anyway. I'm not one to nitpick on spelling, but this sounds more like a Freudian slip than anything else. Maybe what you really intended to do with your comments is whine.

[splintercell]

The fact of the matter is that these young women work under conditions and for salaries none of us would accept.

Andy, but that is all relative. Do you think you are well off? Have a decent job, a nice house, and a good amount of expensive things? Well, I'm sure that Bill Gates can look down from his multi-million (billion?) mansion and say to his wealthy friends that Andy works and lives in conditions that none of them would accept. What's the difference? Does it all of a sudden totally devalue all of what you have? You still have a lifestyle that millions of people would envy. Same for those young women.

I've spent years in developing nations and I'm sure the thousands of starving and begging women and children would give anything to have a relatively "cushy" job in an air-conditioned tech factory that provides food, housing, and more money in a month than they may ever see in their rather miserable lifetimes. And all that without any forceful "slavery". People working because they are hungry? Sure. I do too! If I didn't, I'd eventually run out of money and couldn't buy a nice Big Mac either (since I don't have a trust or large inheritance). People work because they want things - be it food, better housing, support for their families - and that's the same be it a factory laborer for Flextronics or a programmer for Microsoft.

[cherring]

Here's a thought, what if those people who are in rural communities don't necessarily lead miserable lives, what if those who are enslaved by cable tv, their posessions and yearning for more and more "stuff" actually lead miserable lives.

By the same token, a factory job may not be a cushy job either. Begging for a living is a misery but everyone who isn't in your position may not be miserable.

[PocketRocker]

I live in the US and haven't seen the documentary Andy referred to in his intial post. Nor have I ever been to Malaysia. However, I've been to China to evaluate and select manufacturers for handheld electronic devices.

The situation there is capitalistic and competitive. I'm politically left of center and was not offended or embarrased by the working conditions I've seen there.

I worked in a unionized factory in the 70's when I was going to college. The working conditions I see in China today are not much worse than what I experienced 30 years ago in California.

The Chinese electronics workers I see do not live in poverty. From all reports, it is a preferable occupation for Chinese people compared to agriculture.

Undeniably, the general standard of living in Canada and the US is much higher and our citizens enjoy a great deal more freedom.

China's GDP has quadrupled over the last 25 years. China's economy has grown to be second in size to only the US. The standard of living in China has improved dramatically during this period.

I strongly suggest that people try to get more first hand information about the working conditions of Chinese electronics workers before forming an opinion on this subject. Comparing their situation to slavery is not justified.

[nishka]

And please don't complain until you look at the facts surrounding a nation's development and industrialization.

I am not complaining. I am asking a question and hope to plant thoughts about the real workers of this industry and their conditions. I am not anti-globalization and if you felt I "spewed off an ignorant and destructive anti-globalization message" then I am sorry. Not my intention.
The fact of the matter is that these young women work under conditions and for salaries none of us would accept. I am not saying this is wrong per definition given how the world looks today, but I expect companies I do business with to stay away from wrongfully exploiting their workers.

Thanks for clarifying that. My only concern is that all too frequently the anti-globalization forces are arguing points very similar to what you brought up this morning. And nothing could be further from the truth. People now are working for their future as opposed to taking up arms against themselves and other nations. That alone is progress.

Why hasn't China invaded Taiwan? It's bad for business. It's that simple.

And while you or I would never accept salaries these folks are taking, don't forget the cost of living is significantly different. In the case of China, food does not need to be refrigerated since most of it is living up until the meal (that took some getting used to for me :) ). They don't have expensive monthly cable TV and Internet bills, and by and large it's just plain cheaper to live there. They are not wealthy by any means, but they are making far more than they could farming in their home provinces. That money they are earning is going back to their home villages and is being saved (not spent). They are really building themselves a better future through doing business with the world. Can't be a bad thing.

Even in the US there are huge swings in the cost of living. Workers in our facility in Connecticut make considerably more than their counterparts in our plant in Indiana largely because the cost of living is so much more in the Northeastern US. The size home I bought for $220,000 in CT can be purchased for well under $80,000 there. So the wage really needs to be put into the context of the cost of living.

[cherring]

To further your point, $220 000 can buy a mansion where I come from. In fact, the most expensive home on sale in the country was recently advertised at the equivalent of $4 000 000

[Andy Sjostrom]

I strongly suggest that people try to get more first hand information about the working conditions of Chinese electronics workers before forming an opinion on this subject. Comparing their situation to slavery is not justified.

I agree. These issues mean enough to me that I will do my best to learn more about the working conditions of Chines electronics workers.

I have understood that my slavery analogy has stirred up more feelings than intentioned today. So far, though, I value this discussion a lot. I don't have all the knowledge I need on the subject so I appreciate all the comments. It is interesting to see that so many of you have first hand knowledge about these matters.

One question to all of you who feel that the Chinese workers should be happy: in terms of their working conditions, what would upset you to hear about? Where would you draw the line in knowing what goes on at these factories? This is an honest question which I ask myself, too.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

The fact of the matter is that these young women work under conditions and for salaries none of us would accept. I am not saying this is wrong per definition given how the world looks today, but I expect companies I do business with to stay away from wrongfully exploiting their workers.
IMO, as long as the factory doesn't misrepresent what is expected of the workers or what they are being compensated in return, then I would not consider this exploitation. Let's remember that all involved have the power of choice to accept or reject the offer. From both party's perspective, this is seen as win-win. Is it more of a win for Flextronics? It depends on your relative veiwpoint. If you're looking at the absolute currency lost and gained, sure Flextronics makes out. But on a relative scale, it's difficult to dismiss the significant impact these jobs have on the lives of each worker (making more in a month than they could in a year?).

As pointed out in a previous post, a job consisting of repetitive work is often the most undesirable of jobs. There is no marketable skills involved and little to no intellectual challenge. In the US, it's exactly these types of jobs that are often most appreciated by immigrants and most ignored by the rest.

Now to take a market viewpoint, had Flextronics located their factory in the US, I believe most of the jobs would be taken by immigrants (mostly from impoverished backgrounds), but now there would be a minimum wage enforced (likely higher than the true market value of their services), driving up labor costs and further limiting the number of jobs that they can support, which then limits their overall production potential. The end result really is that less people get the opportunity to work a job they desperately want (or need) and the end-consumer is confronted with less supply of a good at a higher price, decreasing the likelihood that he/she will buy... reducing the profits of the firm... on and on...

Sometimes it's difficult not to measure the working conditions in a foreign country against what we might consider acceptable. However, trying to change the circumstance in any way has a domino effect in all directions resulting in what is IMO less of a win-win situation for both sides.

[Seraph1024]

Wages compare to what we (in the west) are getting is low for them. However, in their own world, it's a good amount. We are not screwing them over. We are even giving them jobs. I have a problem with child labour but not at all with low wages. Wages are something that you have to compare with relative to the rest of the people around the area of study. You can not compare the wages from a second or third world country to wages from a first world country. That just wrong.

Anyways, thats how the third world countries slowly build themselves up. They take time but will happen slowly.

L

ps. I am from Burma. You should see what people earn there a month.

[scoopster]

Reading the last two posts, I was reminded of an important fact not yet mentioned in this discussion: China does have a minimum wage law. I'm not sure if the law(s) are national, provincial, or municipal; nor can I confirm that they are universal (applied types of labor). However, the tech factories I deal with all have mentioned there are minimum wages; oh, and there are also laws stipulating overtime pay for extra hours and also for holiday/sunday work.

In certain parts of China (South China / Guangdong being one area) there is a considerable enforcement problem for some of these regulations. However, in other parts (around Shanghai and Jiangsu) the law is both respected and effectively enforced.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Reading the last two posts, I was reminded of an important fact not yet mentioned in this discussion: China does have a minimum wage law.
Do you happen to know the amount? Obviously that minimum amount would likely be very insignificant compared to the US equivalent...

[dave]

perhaps we should repeal the law of supply and demand.


that should fix all of these pesky market-clearing equilibrium prices.

[scoopster]

Reading the last two posts, I was reminded of an important fact not yet mentioned in this discussion: China does have a minimum wage law.
Do you happen to know the amount? Obviously that minimum amount would likely be very insignificant compared to the US equivalent...
No, not exactly. But here are some numbers that will give you some insight into wages and income in China:
- in 2003, the average per capita annual income in Shanghai is expected to top USD5000; in Beijing the current per capita annual income is somewhere USD3000-3500
- in south china tech factories, workers typically earn RMB500-800 (1 USD = 8 RMB) per month;
- workers in south China toy factories may earn RMB300-600 per month
- in Shanghai proper, tech factoy workers typically earn RMB 600-1000 per month, depending on the job (in Shanghai there are many very high tech factories, such as motherboard houses, where workers are not completely skill-less, mindless bodies)

------
edited to correct USD/RMB conversion rate.

[don dre]

This is a pet peeve of mine so I couldn't let it go. The minimum wage in this country has barely kept pace with inflation. The reason for this is it doesnt; work. If the minimum wage is set above the level where markets can pay, jobs are lost completely. The reason this hardly happens here is that the min wage trails the actual wage. The areas hardest hit are usually poor small towns and urban areas. Generally the low paid part timers, baggers, small market stockers, etc. If you accept min. wage you accept that it is possible to force living standards upwards but this is not possible. The role of government is better used to ensure that these young women can in fact leave if they wish. Are not being held against their will.
Here's a thought, what if those people who are in rural communities don't necessarily lead miserable lives, what if those who are enslaved by cable tv, their posessions and yearning for more and more "stuff" actually lead miserable lives.
While this is nice fodder for western anti-globalists, history and present day experiences show otherwise. If these people were happy they wouldn't be elaving for the factories. cities themselves were created by people leaving poor urban life for opportunity.
Admittedly in america, the farm became too boring for many since machines did the work that humans did. I don;t think it's being unreasonable to assume that rural chinese would be happier being able to afford a pot to p*** in and maybe a toilet instead someday. BTW, I donlt have cable TCV but have become a slave to my internet connection.

[dcmorris]

I have not taken part in any forums in the past. I mostly come here to read about what is new and try to learn about new technology.
But... I agree completely with Andy's premise, as I understand it. I believe that foreign workers ARE exploited by the technology firms in general. One can talk all they want to about how it is raising the standard of living for the workers involved, but I believe that begs the issue.
Perhaps we should phrase it in terms of what the workers are getting compared to the owners of the company.
My grandfather, a man that I truely adored, none the less hired several mexican laborers to work on his thousand acres in South Texas. He provided them with housing, a one room shack, with no heating or electricity and no in door plumbing. He certainly thought he was helping Pedro raise his standard of living but there is no question in my mind that he was also exploiting the man and his four kids and wife.
When it came time to pick the cotton, he hired 50 more migrant laborers and "let" them sleep in the barn. We could not play with the children, who has no school to go to, because they were "dirty". When he finally bought a mechanical cotton picker, he didn't worry about how they were going to support their families, he had found a cheaper way to pick his cotton, end of story.
I worked for AT&T and Southwestern Bell and Lucent Technologies for twentysix years, and made a bundle of money. But over the last ten years I saw people cut loose with no recourse in "downsizings" while the CEOs made ever increasing larger bundles of money by "cutting costs".
Oh sure, I could look the other way because I was making enough to buy my aquiescience. Getting stock options at $35 while the stock is $85 it's easy to become a whore.
What happened when the fairy tale ended though? Stock now at $.75 and the CEO gone after raping the company along with the workers and the laid off workers had, you guessed it, no recourse!!

It is easy to say that some workers in China have it much better than they would have if the multi-nationals weren't there but I think the question is better put in this way, "Do the people we are talking about (the workers in this case) have the power to control their own destiny?"

If the answer is no, then I think slavery is the correct word to use.

I believe the question is not so easily answered when put in those terms. We have the illusion of great freedom in this country, but I am convinced it is just that, an illusion.

He that holds the purse strings holds the power to our destinies. The founders of the labor movement knew that and tried to get the owner elite to share that power with the people who really make the money, and plenty of people were shot down by US troops while fighting for that right.

It is a shame to see the way the unions have lost power in this country while the workers bask in the illusion that they are better off for it.

I guess I have ranted enough now. Andy I really appreciate you bringing up the subject.

[Max]

Please let me digress slightly. I would call it "High Tech Slavery", as it differs from the kind that exists in other industry (e.g. clothing) where no skill or education is required.

I have friends who work at a famous US aerospace company in El Segundo CA, where engineers routinely work over-time without pay to deliver satellites that usually have strict schedules to be launched into the orbits. They jokingly call it "Satellite Sweat Shop". :D

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Do you happen to know the amount? Obviously that minimum amount would likely be very insignificant compared to the US equivalent...
No, not exactly. But here are some numbers that will give you some insight into wages and income in China:
- in 2003, the average per capita annual income in Shanghai is expected to top USD5000; in Beijing the current per capita annual income is somewhere USD3000-3500
- in south china tech factories, workers typically earn RMB500-800 (1 RMB = 8 USD) per month;
- workers in south China toy factories may earn RMB300-600 per month
- in Shanghai proper, tech factoy workers typically earn RMB 600-1000 per month, depending on the job (in Shanghai there are many very high tech factories, such as motherboard houses, where workers are not completely skill-less, mindless bodies)
Actually, I was wondering about the minimum wage amount (perhaps that's what these numbers were supposed to illustrate), but these numbers are interesting nonetheless. BTW, are you sure about all these numbers? By the conversion rate you provided, Shanghai factory workers are earning up to 8000USD per month(1000RMB x 8USD/1RMB).. perhaps you meant 8RMB = 1USD??

[don dre]

Equal distribution of wealth is impossible. You can;t shield yourself from reality. As for CEO's, that's a whole other story. Real rot occurs when it becomes tough to say sfrew it and start yuor own company. I guess we don;t all agree on what exploitation is. I feel exploited by otehrs as I watch my wealth go to things I would never choose. I pay SS but will never get any, I'm just a means for the gov to buy votes. I pay for union fat cats to get paid millions for nothing. for the mayor's wife's trips to Rome. For Daschle's reelection campaign (Bush's for that matter). If I refuse to pay for these things and many others I'm thrown in prison. I am a tax slave and a money whore but I still have principles and an acceptable standard of living. For whatever that's worth. I;d have to say, I feel more constricted b/c of my slavery than my promiscuity.

[amigean]

I am really glad to see people debating on how our actions as consumers here in the west affect the lives of people in faraway places. I tend to be an optimist and IMHO this high sense of social responsibility even in geeks like ourselves (who have traditionally disliked anything social) warrants a better tomorrow for the global village we live in.

Now as far as taking sides is concerned, I will have to totally agree with Nishka. No matter how ruthless these companies may appear to people as well fed and spoiled as we are, given the current alternatives in less developed countries - they are a viable employment solution.

Cases of exploitation form exceptions; they are not the rule. May I remind everyone of history - what did Britain look like 300 years ago? What did the U.S. look like 200 years ago and what did Japan look like 100 years ago? Economists have shown that these countries have grown rich through a process they call 'economic development' - a process much more complicated than its lexical meaning suggests.

If you would like to find out why Singapore has a higher income per capita (per person per year) today than contemporary Britain has, whereas as early as 50 years ago it was a 3rd world country then read these books: "The lexus and the olive tree" (T. Friedman) and "Pop Internationalism" (P. Krugman). It was mainly because these people in these countries decided to work their asses off, but Coca-Cola, Matsu****a and Nike had a lot to do with, in that THEY made it possible.

The problem of exploitation in developing countries has nothing to do with the industrialisation process; indeed a market economy and eventual development is the only way out from it. Why?

It is mainly a problem of democratic deficit. Economists believe that capitalism and democracy (however abused this term may be) go hand in-hand; one cannot be healthy without the other.

Poor countries cannot by nature be democratic; e.g. a poor state is powerless to fight corruption. As a country becomes richer it also becomes more democratic, the people have a greater say in what laws are passed and eventually do away with 'slavery'.

Industrialisation and the transition to a market economy does NOT create the problem - it merely temporarily amplifies a problem (due to increased economic activity) that has been there for centuries. The problem has always been there and is inherent in feudal pre-industrial societies. The point is that industrialisation is a finite process with a visible start and a foreseeable end. It is a TRANSITION period, through which all countries have to go through.

Contrary to popular belief (at least the majority) of the west's riches have NOT come by exploiting the rest of the world - a principle argument of the anti-globalisation debate is that 'one can only grow rich by making someone else poorer' as statement which is about as ignorant as 'the palm pdas are better because their OS is not made by Microsoft'.
Just because we don't understand something and we can only see so much doesn't mean we can reach irrefutable conclusions. (read comparative advantage trade theory by David Ricardo, written 200 years ago and more true today than ever).

People have devoted their lives in studying patterns of multinational enterprise activity and the economics of international trade. Making value judgements about issues as complicated as these is, to say the least, inappropriate.
:roll:

To conclude with, democracy is the answer; It is the RESPONSIBILITY of us who enjoy democratic rights to take full advantage of them - this is the way to do something about the world. Not pay silly premiums for unsustainable and economically inefficient 'fair trading' goods. Vote in office governments that promote free economic activity, while making sure that this economic freedom does not violate our basic human rights. Vote in office governments that are socially and environmentally responsible (i.e. don't vote for Bush again) :wink: What people vote in the U.S. in Britain in France or even in Greece where I come from have an impact in how the whole of the world is run. We all have weapons to fight global oppression: our votes. Not using them can let 'Bush' and his likes and little 'Florida fiascos' happen over and over again.

[scoopster]

dcmorris:

Let me ask you...
did those migrant workers consciously, of their own accord, choose to work for your grandfather? It sounds like they did.
did those migrant workers get paid a wage? or were they indentured to your grandfather? Sounds like they were not shackled down.

How is it explotation when person choses to migrate (from Mexico to the US, or from rural China to an industrial area).....choses to start work for a company....and chooses each morning to get out of bed and go into the factory/field....especially when there is another factory or field across the road.....?

Or do you not believe in meritocracy, whereby one advances up the ladder through performing well.....regardless of how low s/he started on the ladder...?

I really struggle with explotation as most people use the term.....and I admit don't have my own clear cut definition. All I know is that when I walk into our factories in China, I never for a minute think the workers would tell you they felt exploited. And if they don't think they are exploited, how/why should anyone try to convince them they are...?

[scoopster]

Do you happen to know the amount? Obviously that minimum amount would likely be very insignificant compared to the US equivalent...
No, not exactly. But here are some numbers that will give you some insight into wages and income in China:
- in 2003, the average per capita annual income in Shanghai is expected to top USD5000; in Beijing the current per capita annual income is somewhere USD3000-3500
- in south china tech factories, workers typically earn RMB500-800 (1 RMB = 8 USD) per month;
- workers in south China toy factories may earn RMB300-600 per month
- in Shanghai proper, tech factoy workers typically earn RMB 600-1000 per month, depending on the job (in Shanghai there are many very high tech factories, such as motherboard houses, where workers are not completely skill-less, mindless bodies)
Actually, I was wondering about the minimum wage amount (perhaps that's what these numbers were supposed to illustrate), but these numbers are interesting nonetheless. BTW, are you sure about all these numbers? By the conversion rate you provided, Shanghai factory workers are earning up to 8000USD per month(1000RMB x 8USD/1RMB).. perhaps you meant 8RMB = 1USD??

Yes, I did mean 1 RMB = 8 USD. I have edited my original post. Thanks for catching my error.

[Jason Dunn]

Very interesting discussion so far - thanks for keeping it civil! :)

Here's something to ponder: I use volunteers on this site. I do not pay the team who posts (Andy, Marlof, Brad, Ed), our moderator (Steven), or our copy editor (Ashley). I'm "taking advantage" of their enthusiasm for the Pocket PC, giving them a fun place to "work", and I try to keep them happy with thieir roles here (and buy them Christmas and birthday presents).

What "should" I do with the little advertising money I make? Is it immoral for me to continue to rely on volunteers, or should I hire people to post on the site and pay them what I can? What if I can't pay them enough?

Ultimately slavery is defined by the lack of freedom to make life decisions - I don't feel I'm being exploitive by relying on volunteers to help me run this site. There's a value proposition for both sides: they benefit from their enjoyment of it, I benefit from the help because it allows me to do more. In the same way, the women working at these plants are not slaves. They have the freedom to leave.

Working conditions and fair wages are a completely separate topic however. :D

Economics is a complex issue, and not one easy distilled down to right and wrong. The issue of slavery though isn't - if you have the freedom to work elsewhere, or not work at all, you're not a slave in the techincal sense. If you want to get philosophical about it, we're all "slaves" to food, water, sleep, etc...

[klinux]

I am not concerned about the slavery, wage, or economic aspect of this debate as many people have already had voiced my thoughts.

However, I want to bring up the environmental cost that these poorer nations suffer as the dumping ground for our technology trash. Heavy metals being the #1 contaminants that are affecting not only the health of these workers , their children, and their ecosystem (rivers, fishstock, etc).

I could go on but maybe this will be a featured PPCT topic in the future.

[ipaq adam]

Isn't anyone worried here, like me, that we're setting ourselves up for some major problems?

When jobs are lost in your homeland and sent abroad to cut a company's costs, the company might be making lots of nice money, and those workers should be making the lowest possible acceptable wage in their country. Hooray!

But suddenly what do the people at home do? They no longer have a job, and since all the production is moving overseas, there's no jobs left.

I live in the U.S. (but maybe not for long!), and I hope that the fat cats that control the U.S. will figure this out soon. They're the ones that suffer in the end, because there's nobody left with enough money to buy their products. *sob*

[pdantic]

OK. :evil:

First, don't characterize me as a flaming Republican conservative, because I'm not. But I do NOT agree with the idea that paying low (by Western standards) wages to workers in developing nations qualifies as slavery. In many cases, those low wages are better than the alternative - begging, prostitution or below-subsistence level life.

A few years ago well-meaning college students did a lot of damage by organizing a boycott of Nike products that were produced in Vietnam. This followed pretty much the same line as this Flextronics story - there was a documentary (made by some idiot) showing how poor the working conditions were and how the workers were making only pennies per shoe, when mean, evil Nike was pocketing hundreds of dollars on the same product and executives were making million-dollar bonuses. Don't get me wrong, I hate Nike for other reasons that I won't divulge...but this kind of Michael Moore "journalism" is sickening because it only shows one side of the story.

Several of the "guilty" Nike plants in Vietnam and other third-world countries were shut down due to public pressure and decreased demand for the products that were made at those particular plants. The result? The "slaves" who were finally making enough money to send home to their families to pay rent and purchase food, medicine, and some meager "luxuries" were suddenly unemployed.

There was another documentary crew that followed up with the story of the aftermath of the boycott. Of course, the media pretty much blocked the story so it didn't make many of the major news outlets - it didn't meet their standards of journalism since it actually showed that a major corporation was having a positive effect on life. I recall watching this followup film and being shocked by the effect that the boycott had. One man's mother and wife both died because he could no longer afford the medicine that was keeping them alive. Two sisters who worked in the same Nike plant moved to Thailand and became prostitutes, simply because that was the only other "career alternative" available to them after they lost their "slave jobs" making shoes for Nike.

I also think it's a rather stupid idea to say that someone who is slapping heels onto running shoes on a production line should make the same or even close to what an executive does. Excuse me, but communism and socialism are failed experiments. Capitalism isn't perfect by a long shot, but it certainly beats the alternatives.

Granted, in a perfect world we wouldn't have a flame war like this going on and all corporations would pay all of their employees fairly, but it is NOT a perfect world. Grow up and deal with it. You can choose to vote with your dollars by not purchasing certain products if you don't agree with the political or social impact of those items - for example, I've been a vegetarian for the last 15 years because I realize what an environmental horror the production of meat is. But please realize that your decision can have other, worse impacts on people who depend on those "slave" wages for their pursuit of life and happiness.

Just my opinion...

Steve

[Timothy Rapson]

I'm from SA, born and bred. I did some travelling a while ago and found I was eating big macs more than anything else wherever I went. Have you heard of the big mac index?

Yes, I have heard of the Big Mac index. Every year we get the stories of how they cost $5. in New York and Japan. Mysteriously, they never mention the cost in New Delhi...ew, that was bad. In fact, they do sell lamb Macs in India or vegie Macs.

My home town of Decatur, Illinois, USA is home to Archer Daniels Midland. ADM sells vegieburgers made of soybeans all over. They cost double what beef burgers do. Makes no sense to me how you can run the soy protien through a cow at a waste of 80% of the protien and still sell it cheaper.

There is a lot about this economic stuff I do not understand.

[don dre]

your questions were addressed by David Ricardo in the early 19th c. We are already a protectionist nation and the days of mercantilism are over (hopefully.) Basically, Ricardo said that when two countries trade, they will specialize in what they make best. by doing this, they will produce less of the things they produce inefficiently and more of what they do well. In the end, both countries will have more of everything. Now, given this, what you are saying is that the US is increasing not the best at making things. Think about this, what do rich countries have as advantage over poor (to combat the wage gap)? skilled labor, education, and excess capital. If the US cannot change what it produces to take advantage of these, it indicates a deficiency in our country. Personally, I think we are suffering from overburdening regulation and taxation which makes us less competitive. Anyways, please do not be afraid of jobs moving over...just be concerned over our countries ability to change with the times.

[Wiggin]

Very interesting read. I love these technical topics!!!! :way to go:
IMHO, some of the posts are very insightful, and all of those posts have a common characteristic. That is, they each come from someone who has "EXPERIENCED" the conditions one finds in all of the Third World. I value their opinions because of a simple concept... Perspective.

I grew up in Los Angeles, got a Masters Degree from a Top 10 University, and hit the "Big World" full of confidence I knew all that I needed to be successful. I considered myself very informed on the World's Ills, including those suffered by developing nations. I was ready to debate with the best of 'em...name the topic.

But a funny thing happened 15 years later... my company asked that I relocate to mainland China. All of a sudden I was surrounded by poverty that I had only READ about, or debated, or watched on CNN. After two years, I moved to Manila. The poverty level was even lower! The sights, the smells, the sounds... very sobering. After four years on the other side of the road, I have a very different attitude about possible solutions to the World's Ills.

Upon returning to the States, I found that most Americans do not understand that the social/ecomonic rules and standards we take for granted often do not apply to developing countries. They do care, they just can't understand what it means to be on the other side of the road. Someone working for $1/day in China is labeled "abused" by the American earning $100,000/yr. I wonder how they would feel if they knew that $2,000/yr puts the person in the top 20% of the wage earners in that community, and buys them all of their needs (with some $$ left over for a rainy day)?

Perspective... a simple concept that is so often left outside in the cold. :roll:

[RX-78]

Steve, I think the example you've point out about Nike is right on the point. I'd like to know the name of the documentary you cited that followed up the closing of the Nike factory.

What most people seem to forget when aruging about the relative "right" or "wrong" of using workers in third world countries is that those "lousy" jobs pay very well for those workers. Even jobs in softgoods (textiles, shoes, so on) do raise the standard of living as a whole for the country.

And those workers in those "high-tech sweatshops" inevitably open up their own factories, owned, operated and staffed by their own countrymen. Their level of development and standard of living is ultimately raised by that "exploitation." But it's all part of, as Chalmers Johnson called (I believe), the product cycle. Japan, Korea, Singapore, all economic superpowers now in high-tech, were once turning out cheap textiles, cheap toys and cheap electronics. It was a matter of their workforce developing the sort of skills to go from just putting something together to engineering an item. But that sort of transformation of a workforce doesn't happen overnight.

It seems, though, that some people who are rabidly anti-globalization seem to believe that any company that opens up shop or places an order in a factory in a third-world country is exploiting the workers, and that the only "noble" way for these countries to develop is through uncompetitive, low-tech, usually agrarian-based industries. It's almost like they don't want them to develop into anything more.

Now I realize that the system isn't perfect -- but it seems to me that anyone with a head on their shoulders would want to work in an air-conditioned factory than planting rice. Add to that the fact that the factory jobs pays many times over what planting rice will bring in. Add to that the this sort of industrial development leads to real development, not handouts in the form of economic aid from the first world to the third world.

I have no love for huge corporations with their fat cat salaries, but I have no love for neo-hippie wanna-bes who think torching a Starbucks or McDonald's in Seattle (and putting people who work in those jobs -- people who really do need the money -- out of work) does anything for real discussion or debate about globalization.

[Timothy Rapson]

Very interesting discussion so far - thanks for keeping it civil! :)

I do not pay the team who posts (Andy, Marlof, Brad, Ed), our moderator (Steven), or our copy editor (Ashley). I'm "taking advantage" of their enthusiasm for the Pocket PC, ...

I am starting a movement to free Ed and Andy. "Workers exploited by PPCThoughts arise, you have nothing to lose but your chains."

I will say, that you certainly get a lot more than you pay for in this case, Jason. :lol:

[don dre]

Soybeans are heavily subsidized. Archer Daniels Midland is well conencted with the Democrats and even the Rep's. Ethanol is mainly a way for ADM to get rich than any environmental reasons. Ethanol takes more energy to produce than is yielded ( a net loss.) Basically, 100 units of energy is used to produce about 76 units of ethanol. If you see things like this you can be sure it is political and not economical. This of course negates any positive environmental effect but it does line the pockets of the ethanol producing ADM. Mickey D's beef is flavored with chemicals from North Jersey. If you are in NYC and opt for a burger from them over the many other options available, you shouldn't have to ask why that person would pay $5.

[dcmorris]

dcmorris:

Let me ask you...
did those migrant workers consciously, of their own accord, choose to work for your grandfather? It sounds like they did.
did those migrant workers get paid a wage? or were they indentured to your grandfather? Sounds like they were not shackled down.

How is it explotation when person choses to migrate (from Mexico to the US, or from rural China to an industrial area).....choses to start work for a company....and chooses each morning to get out of bed and go into the factory/field....especially when there is another factory or field across the road.....?

Or do you not believe in meritocracy, whereby one advances up the ladder through performing well.....regardless of how low s/he started on the ladder...?

I really struggle with explotation as most people use the term.....and I admit don't have my own clear cut definition. All I know is that when I walk into our factories in China, I never for a minute think the workers would tell you they felt exploited. And if they don't think they are exploited, how/why should anyone try to convince them they are...?


The point you have made here is, to me, another of those slippery slopes down which we, in the west, so easily slide.
Did any of the slaves that came over here by boat, end up with a net gain in money, goods, lodging, clothing? According to this logic, if they did they were not exploited.
Of course my grandfather exploited those mexican workers. I would almost guarantee that he would say the same thing you did, that they sent money home to allow their families to live better, but that doesn't make them less exploited. Remember, when my grandfather was done with them, he discarded them. He didn't care what happened to them. In large measure the US has done and is doing the same thing to the farmers in this country today. Farms have become large corporate affairs and no one much cared or cares what happens to the people who made this country the breadbasket for the world. Sure there are some families who have taken advantage of the situation and become rich, but the balance were just thrown aside and forgotten. Same thing happened to steel workers in Chicago, and Gary in the 60s and 70s. Same thing is happening to high tech today. Ask some of the guys who worked for Gulf Oil company what happened to their pensions when Chevron took over.

If we want to take advantage of cheaper labor in developing countries I have no problem with that. I believe it is more in our and democracies interest to ensure that basic human needs are taken of before we start exploiting that labor. How about clean water supplies, central sanitary sewers, education facilities and the list goes on and on. Universal medical coverage is a good one. For all the wonder of our great economic system as espoused by some on this forum, it seems like the least fortunate among us don't have the availablility of basic medical care. Perhaps that is something that is based on "meritocracity".

Perhaps it would do some of us some good to go back and read about Ceasar Chavez and the farm labor movement, or to read "The Grapes of Wrath" or James Agee's "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men".

[Timothy Rapson]

Soybeans are heavily subsidized. Archer Daniels Midland is well conencted with the Democrats and even the Rep's. Ethanol is mainly a way for ADM to get rich than any environmental reasons. Ethanol takes more energy to produce than is yielded ( a net loss.) Basically, 100 units of energy is used to produce about 76 units of ethanol. If you see things like this you can be sure it is political and not economical. This of course negates any positive environmental effect but it does line the pockets of the ethanol producing ADM. Mickey D's beef is flavored with chemicals from North Jersey. If you are in NYC and opt for a burger from them over the many other options available, you shouldn't have to ask why that person would pay $5.

Yes, I am no ADM fan, I was only pointing them out as a side interest to the big Mac index and to note my location.
The politics of ethanol are abysmal. I have to watch these laws being made by our Midwest politicians. Disgusting, yes.

I read an amazing article about the New Jersey scent and chemical food additive industry. Do you know that they have isolated the distinctive taste of green peppers? It is so potent that humans can sense 1 drop of it spread out in a whole swimming pool? These hi-tech jobs such as analysing and synthesizing such chemicals are the future of the US, not tennis shoe manufacturing.

I think the bigger problem in our economy is the strange case of CEO pay anomolies. How can a company that is losing money pay their CEO $millions a year in bonuses? I think the current stock market corrections are going to fix some of this as boards of directors relalize they better get there acts together or they will lose their "phony bologna jobs, gentlemen". (quote from Governor Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles.)

[don dre]

One last post before andy has my membership revoked, well maybe.
The point you have made here is, to me, another of those slippery slopes down which we, in the west, so easily slide.
Did any of the slaves that came over here by boat, end up with a net gain in money, goods, lodging, clothing? According to this logic, if they did they were not exploited.
this ignores the quote he cited
Let me ask you...
did those migrant workers consciously, of their own accord, choose to work for your grandfather? It sounds like they did.
did those migrant workers get paid a wage? or were they indentured to your grandfather? Sounds like they were not shackled down. [quote]
Obviously not. Another point of note, exploitation is not inherently bad.
The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage: exploitation of copper deposits.
Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes: exploitation of unwary consumers As you can see, exploitation can be normal. We all exploit our own talents for salaries. Our friends exploit us when they ask for help with something we are good at. Exploitation is capitalism. The second part of that definition is merely bad connotations created by anti-capitalists. that somehow exploitation is inherently bad. Sure those mexicans were exploited, but they chose to be exploited.

[Joff]

So much has already been said. The perspective argument is an interresting one. However, I would like to make my own contribution to the subject.

It is difficult to define the enemy these days. In fact there is no real enemy. We have become the victim of a system we created, I mean the ever-increasing profit making global companies.

I have the impression that I am a prisonner of the process. On one side I love anything technical and can't wait to see better products to come out, at the lowest possible price of course. On the other side I feel that we are not heading in the right direction. I mean I am not happy about the way business is being conducted, where increased profit comes first. These days, it is simply not enough to make profit. Companies seek to make EVER INCREASING profits. This results in geographical shifts of productions (and now product design as well!) towards low cost labour countries. Pehraps, this is a way to better distribute earnings around the world. But it only last some time. We reach a point where this is no longer possible or effecient. Then we enter what is called a recession where ordinary people like you and I pay the price (pay back time pehraps?).

There must be a better way to do business. We must care more about the others and respect our environment. I fear that if we don't, it will eventually turn back against us. Let's be a little more smarter and a little less selfish. 8O

[tank2000]

The fact of the matter is that these young women work under conditions and for salaries none of us would accept.

I don't usually participate in forums and discussion for this very reason -- it usually turns into a flame war or into a "I'm better than you" discussion.

However, as a Malaysian and since my country is mentioned in your list countries which promote slavery, I feel I have to put in my two cents' worth.

I can't give my opinion on the other countries mentioned in your little discourse, but as for my own country, factory workers earn a pretty decent amount -- between RM800-1000 a month (US$210-260).

That may seem equivalent to slave labour to you, but I'm a University graduate and I've been working as a tech journalist for the number one newspaper in the country for three years and my pay is RM1800 a month (US$473).

What you people don't understand is that you can't compare your high standard of living with ours. For example, in Malaysia, US$1.50 will get any person a good meal, and US$2.60 is a feast. Just to give a clearer picture, a MacDonald's Happy Meal costs RM5.99 (US$1.50) in Malaysia.

As a journalist, I well know that the media in general tend to make news more sensationalist -- heck, it sells. But as readers and television viewers, you have to be able to read between the lines, or at least learn more before you go jumping to unfair conclusions about something.

Factory workers in Malaysia (especially those that work for IT companies like Intel) are treated fairly and actually get pretty good perks in Malaysia.

That's all I have to say. If you really want to know more, why don't you ask someone like scoopster? He seems to know what he's talking about, unlike most of you.

If my comments seem a little offensive, you can take it that I am offended. Please, this website is a Pocket PC site, not a forum for you to express your ill-informed opinions about other countries.

[jeasher]

Amen Tank. For me or anyone else in the States to sit here and judge Asian culture is arrogance at its worst.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I can't give my opinion on the other countries mentioned in your little discourse, but as for my own country, factory workers earn a pretty decent amount -- between RM800-1000 a month (US$210-260).

That may seem equivalent to slave labour to you, but I'm a University graduate and I've been working as a tech journalist for the number one newspaper in the country for three years and my pay is RM1800 a month (US$473).

What you people don't understand is that you can't compare your high standard of living with ours. For example, in Malaysia, US$1.50 will get any person a good meal, and US$2.60 is a feast. Just to give a clearer picture, a MacDonald's Happy Meal costs RM5.99 (US$1.50) in Malaysia.
Well stated. While I was born and raised in America, but my parents come from Thailand and I do maintain many connections there myself. I can for certain that the US dollar goes a LOOOONNNNGGGG way in Thailand and the rest of SE Asia. You just can't compare the dollar amounts overseas against what it normally buys you here in the US.

That's all I have to say. If you really want to know more, why don't you ask someone like scoopster? He seems to know what he's talking about, unlike most of you.

If my comments seem a little offensive, you can take it that I am offended. Please, this website is a Pocket PC site, not a forum for you to express your ill-informed opinions about other countries.
Actually, if you re-review the posts, I think you'll find that most of the posters (including myself) agree with your point.

[Pony99CA]

Sorry, but it's not the same. Things I eat, I choose based on taste, nutrition and price. Things I know don't have those same requirements.

That's precisely my point....what constitues "knowing" about something....? I don't think you would claim to know about Flextronics factory conditions unless you had seen the "nutritional content" and "tasted" the factory...or would you?

In one sense, no, you can't truly know something without experiencing it. But even that's relative; you have to experience the whole thing, too, otherwise you're like the blind men feeling the elephant.

However, in another way, you can know things nth-hand. That's what the best writers do. Much learning is based on that fact. The important thing is to learn the truth, of course. :-)



Life is too short to find out everything first-hand. We have to trust some people sometime, and the press is often one of those entities we place our trust in. Oftentimes, we're like juries, deciding things based on the weight of the evidence presented, without actually having gathered that evidence. With information overload getting worse, people will be taking more on faith, not less.


I absolutely agree that we have to make judgements about, and use, information we receive nth-hand. What bothers me is that some people become very fanatical about current issues without having accurate facts. I don't mind that a person has an opinion based on nth-hand information at all, but I do mind when someone radically promotes (or tries to convert other people to) that opinion without having confirmed the information that informed his/her decision.
But how does one know their "facts" are inaccurate (isn't "inaccurate facts" an oxymoron)? If you agree that you can't know everything first-hand, you have to accept that some (much) of our knowledge is gained nth-hand.

Your argument seems to be saying that people who don't know something first-hand shouldn't argue passionately about something, and I find that to be a bad idea. If you follow that to an extreme, our elections would consist of voters who were "educated". (Not that that would necessarily be a bad idea. :-))

What you should do, if you find someone arguing from incorrect data, is try to provide him a correct source of facts that he will believe. He may not believe you, but what more can you really do? Many times, learning does come from arguing, if people have open minds. I don't mind people who argue from bad data, as long as they're willing accept the facts when they see them. We're all ignorant about most of the world.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

My grandfather, a man that I truely adored, none the less hired several mexican laborers to work on his thousand acres in South Texas. He provided them with housing, a one room shack, with no heating or electricity and no in door plumbing. He certainly thought he was helping Pedro raise his standard of living but there is no question in my mind that he was also exploiting the man and his four kids and wife.

If Pedro's life was "better" than before, then it sounds like a win-win situation to me. It might not have been equitable, but that's another issue.

Yes, your grandfather was exploiting Pedro, but if Pedro is better off for it, it's not bad exploitation.


When it came time to pick the cotton, he hired 50 more migrant laborers and "let" them sleep in the barn. We could not play with the children, who has no school to go to, because they were "dirty". When he finally bought a mechanical cotton picker, he didn't worry about how they were going to support their families, he had found a cheaper way to pick his cotton, end of story.

And what should he have done? Kept paying people he had no use for? Reduced his standard of living to improve people he had no real connection with? It would be nice if he did, but that's what altruism is for. If we all had to be altruistic, we wouldn't look up to people who were by choice.


I worked for AT&T and Southwestern Bell and Lucent Technologies for twentysix years, and made a bundle of money. But over the last ten years I saw people cut loose with no recourse in "downsizings" while the CEOs made ever increasing larger bundles of money by "cutting costs".

I got laid-off by IBM in the mid-90s during their cost-cutting, so I know down-sizing. I've worked for four companies since then -- two went out of business, and one got bought out by another company and doesn't seem to be here in California anymore. The Internet company I was working for in 2000-2001 went out of business, and I've been unemployed for almost 18 months now. Am I whining about it? Nope. Do I wish things were different? Of course.

I'll tell you what -- you build me a nice house with electricity, heat and running water on your property -- like you expected grandpa to do for Pedro, I gather -- and I'll come work for you, OK? :-)

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I've been a vegetarian for the last 15 years because I realize what an environmental horror the production of meat is.

Hey, vegetarians and vegans are the ones destroying the ecosystem and causing global warming. Check out the Society To End Vegetation Exploitation (http://www.garlic.com/~shm/vegexploit.html). Remember, plants are living creatures, too.

Steve

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Pony99CA]

I do not pay the team who posts (Andy, Marlof, Brad, Ed), our moderator (Steven), or our copy editor (Ashley). I'm "taking advantage" of their enthusiasm for the Pocket PC, ...

I am starting a movement to free Ed and Andy. "Workers exploited by PPCThoughts arise, you have nothing to lose but your chains."

I will say, that you certainly get a lot more than you pay for in this case, Jason. :lol:
True, but the real person being exploited is Jason. He puts in a lot of time and effort to run this site (he's the #1 poster by far), and we get to sponge off his bandwidth and generosity. :-)

Steve