What I don't like about Pocket PCs

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2755.html' target='_blank'>http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2755.html</a><br /><br /></div>In a rare burst of emotion, infoSync founder Jørgen Sundgot goes on a rant about the things he doesn't like about the Pocket PC OS. But, in typical infoSync fashion, it's calm and well-measured. I find it hard to disagree with most of his points (although there is a battery status icon Jørgen - click the time in the upper right corner). I suppose the good news here is that <i>some</i> of the things that Jørgen brings up are going to be fixed in the next version of the OS from what I hear. No, I can't tell you which things. :wink: Jørgen seems to indicate that this is part of a series of rants, so I'm interested in seeing what he has to say about the Palm and Symbian platforms...<br /><br />"While handhelds are continously improving in all sorts of ways too numerous mention, I still have gripes with most of them. Of course, no product can be perfect, and there's always the matter of taste and preference - but some issues should be disposed of sooner rather than later in my opinion, and today I'll focus on the Pocket PC platform.<br /><br />Let's start with Landscape mode. Even though it's fully possible both in theory and practice to have applications that, just like those on a standard PC operating system of your choice, dynamically resize depending on the orientation of their window, the Pocket PC platform is - for now - restricted to a portrait layout. Why? Apart from making things simpler for developers, I have no idea - and there are already multiple applications that enable users to rotate the display 90 degrees to improve usability when for instance browsing web sites or working with Excel documents. In fact, properly written applications handle rotation nicely, and just in case you didn't know, some of Microsoft's own applications do - while others (ahem) don't."

[taxlax]

I so agree with his comment about Connection manager. It is horrible.

[enemy2k2]

I know you can't give details or release date info. But any idea how much it will cost to get the update? If you can't give a figure, then I'd be curious to know how much the last update from PPC 2000 - 2002 cost when that came out. Thanks :!:


PS - when can we expect that Axim review? :D

[akash]

Jørgen Sundgot's comments are straight out of our heart, not an iota of anything other than truth. Wake up Microsoft!

[that_kid]

Yeah when I first saw the topic on infosync I just knew that I was going to be pissed once I read it. After reading it I agreed with him on all his points (now that I know about the battery icon, i have to scratch one). I do think that microsoft is listening. The feedback I get from those online tech chats seem very positive and informative. My biggest complaint with the pocket pc so far is that D**n connetion mangler.

[bdegroodt]

The email thing HAS to be in the next release. It's just too obvious in my opinion to not include :!: .

It's the only reason I still have a cheating glance at the Blackberry from time to time. Ok that and the keyboard and the fact that I could drop it a hundred times and never cause it a moments delay in function...but that's another story.

[sesummers]

While it MIGHT make sense for a desktop O/S to divide the UI into applications that must be switched between, a Pocket PC isn't a desktop PC. What I'd really like is software that lets me treat the thing like a notebook. I'd like to be greeted by a table of contents instead of an application menu. I want to be able to create text pages, table (Spreadsheet) pages, picture pages, address book pages, todo list pages, web site pages, etc., and organize them into categories and subcategories based on the subject they're related to.

Going into a list of applications, selecting one, and then selecting a file of that particular type, from that application's own list of files, is a LOUSY way to organize information. We're stuck with it in Windows because of its single tasking DOS heritage, but why can't somebody create something new and different for these new and different kinds of machines? Are we going to be stuck with apps and their app-specific files forever? :(

[ThomasC22]

I think his points are all pretty valid, as a matter of fact I was surpised he didn't go for some of the more obvious issues (Pocket Word/Excel for example).

I think the constant, and often unfounded, attacks of the Palm-camp has made a lot of PocketPC users forget that the OS still has quite a ways to go in it's User Interface.

Just because you admit that the PocketPC has some issues doesn't mean you're saying Palm is easier...

[mike6024]

Hey Jason, I know you can't say anything, but I'm asking anyway. :wink: Will landscape mode be in the next release? I have to say that that would be (excuse me for this) 'da bomb', but only as long as it doesn't require a reset.

[st63z]

Darnit where's Ed when you need him. I felt like reading another one of his article "roasting" :twisted:

[Jason Dunn]

I know you can't give details or release date info. But any idea how much it will cost to get the update? If you can't give a figure, then I'd be curious to know how much the last update from PPC 2000 - 2002 cost when that came out. Thanks :!:

I have no idea how much it will cost - that's really up to the OEMs. Microsoft sells the upgrade to OEM for "X" dollars, OEM decides how much to sell it to their customers for (after factoring in support + distribution, etc.). The Compaq upgrade was $30 or $40 if memory serves.

PS - when can we expect that Axim review? :D

Not for a while yet - the battery tests alone will take roughly a week to complete.

[enemy2k2]

The Compaq upgrade was $30 or $40 if memory serves.

That's not half bad, hopefully the 32B ROM version of the Axim I ordered can be upgraded with the full version :?

PS - when can we expect that Axim review? :D

Not for a while yet - the battery tests alone will take roughly a week to complete.

Battery tests and all :!: :!: :!: This I DEFINITELY look forward to. I'm going to be on the look-out for that one for sure , like a starving rabid dog :twisted:

[Janak Parekh]

I so agree with his comment about Connection manager. It is horrible.
Absolutely. Jason, keep on pestering the MS folks to drop Connection Mangler. :)

Jorgen does a nice job in general with his site. His evenhanded treatment of both Palm and PPC is commendable.

--bdj

[brntcrsp]

While it MIGHT make sense for a desktop O/S to divide the UI into applications that must be switched between, a Pocket PC isn't a desktop PC. What I'd really like is software that lets me treat the thing like a notebook. I'd like to be greeted by a table of contents instead of an application menu. I want to be able to create text pages, table (Spreadsheet) pages, picture pages, address book pages, todo list pages, web site pages, etc., and organize them into categories and subcategories based on the subject they're related to.

Going into a list of applications, selecting one, and then selecting a file of that particular type, from that application's own list of files, is a LOUSY way to organize information. We're stuck with it in Windows because of its single tasking DOS heritage, but why can't somebody create something new and different for these new and different kinds of machines? Are we going to be stuck with apps and their app-specific files forever? :(

You know it almost sounds like a Tablet PC would be a good choice for you. True there are still the limitations of the OS, but it would give you a flow that you can control through the Journal App. Now you've got me thinking about this too.

[Venturello]

Sesummers... what you want is a 'cute' organizer... try a Casio BE300 (or whatever) which has a special shell, a simplified (and to me, stupidified) version of Windows CE. That should work for you, no programs to get confused about, no settings, it just runs and is easy to use (and cheap).

For me, I want a PocketPC... read it. A PC (Personal Computer) in my Pocket. How it is in current for I find VERY satisfying. Yes, the OS could use fixes and changes, but that's progress and evolution. Next generation will have (even more) memory, a better bus, more wireless capabilities, a faster CPU, hopefully (very important to me) a higher res screen... even so I like the current resolution... its enough for most of what I do. Yes, higher would mean crisper (or more) text, but as it is its enough.

Thing is, I am a geek who understands a bit of technology, and I am just awed by the power that we have in such a small device, the very flexible and open (yes, open, as in you can program almost whatever you want) OS, the gorgeous screen, etc. I remember owning a CE 1 device and dreaming of a color screen. People, its 64 megs, almost unlimited expandability, 400 Mhz (though they run like 200 :P )...

Just did a test routine for a client. A 770K text file, representing 4000 articles from a costumer's database. A search for a given reference, the whole thing, using optimized C (but no assembler) and a linear search (not the faster bineary search - cant use that), takes less than half a second. Compare that with almost the same algorithm in a palm pilot (where I cannot multitask to run it on the background) and the search takes around 4 seconds. Plus, as a Windows developer, I am VERY familiar with the PocketPC OS (vs PalmOS, which I program in VB, which is slow... such a search would take a LONG more, to do a given app on C under PalmOS would take a long learning curve).

Just a random rant. God I love this pocket devices!! (and I am saving for a phone edition - the ultimate pocket pc for me - ideally the next 56xx, which I have TONS of accesories from my current iPaq).

Bye all, good luck,

Venturello

[ledowning]

I agree that there are some things in the Pocket PC that don't work too well, but overall it is a nice package that fills a lot of people's needs. Mine for one. I keep learning new things that my Jornada 568 can do all the time. It would be nice if HP released an EUU3 update for the Jornada, though.

Have a good one.

[sesummers]

Sesummers... what you want is a 'cute' organizer... try a Casio BE300 (or whatever) which has a special shell, a simplified (and to me, stupidified) version of Windows CE. That should work for you, no programs to get confused about, no settings, it just runs and is easy to use (and cheap).

No I don't! I want a very fast, powerful, high capacity (lots of memory) machine with a great screen and internet connectivity. I want to be able to add 3rd party applications, and even create simple ones (like automated forms) easily. Multi-media is a must.

What I'm complaining about is how its capabilities are organized, not that it has too many capabilities. I hate the fact that everything is separated from everything else. I have Pocket Word for (lame) rich text, notes for plain text (but with the ability to embed recorded sound???), and pocket IE for HTML text. I have IE as well as a slide show viewer and a separate painting program (and Word's ability to draw and display pictures) to show images. But there's no good way to take a picture out of a word document, edit it, and put it back in- or to reference it somewhere else. Or even to embed one while writing something.

There have been some stabs taken at what I'm looking for in the past- for example, the PenPoint operating system from the first round of "pen computing" about a decade ago. These products failed for reasons other than the value or workability of their core ideas, but the ideas seem to have died with the products. Someday, someone will revive them, and build us an organizer O/S that is a LOT easier to use for organizing without being "dumbed down" like a Palm.

[Pony99CA]

I have no idea how much it will cost - that's really up to the OEMs. Microsoft sells the upgrade to OEM for "X" dollars, OEM decides how much to sell it to their customers for (after factoring in support + distribution, etc.). The Compaq upgrade was $30 or $40 if memory serves.

I was thinking Compaq charged $39.95, but it could have been $29.95. That ticked me off, because I had bought my 3650 in July 2001, and the upgrade was supposed to be released in October 2001 (if I recall correctly). They only gave free upgrades to those who bought iPAQs after the upgrade was announced in September 2001, which seemed pretty unfriendly.

That, combined with not being able to fit the whole upgrade in ROM, got me to buy a 3870. I'm sure Compaq was mad about that. :-)

There was another Pocket PC that was upgradeable, too -- the UR There @migo (http://www.urthere.com/_support/index.htm#general) -- and I think that upgrade was free. (For reference, it was a very cool Pocket PC -- the only one with built-in PCMCIA support, I think.)

Steve

[enemy2k2]

There was another Pocket PC that was upgradeable, too -- the UR There @migo (http://www.urthere.com/_support/index.htm#general) -- and I think that upgrade was free. (For reference, it was a very cool Pocket PC -- the only one with built-in PCMCIA support, I think.)

Steve

I was actually going to buy that one, there was a supposedly NIB unit on Ebay that was selling for not much over 200USD. That was before I heard about the Axim though :D Though it would have been nice to pop in one of those cool (and cheap) 2GB PC card HDs :twisted:

[Janak Parekh]

There was another Pocket PC that was upgradeable, too -- the UR There @migo (http://www.urthere.com/_support/index.htm#general) -- and I think that upgrade was free. (For reference, it was a very cool Pocket PC -- the only one with built-in PCMCIA support, I think.)
Re the @migo: while it did have a free upgrade, and built-in PC card support, it came late, had a lot of problems in its initial run, and was generally poorly supported by URThere.

But yes, I would suspect that if the upgrade is available, we'd see something similar to the $29 that Compaq offered. (Without shipping, taxes, etc., of course.)

--bdj

[WallackAS]

I can't believe that Jorgen forgot about repeating alarms being built in. There is no excuse for removing this from the OS!

-- Andy

[yawanag]

I'm so in love with my PPC. Having it all in the palm of my hand intrigues me! The only thing I don't like is the shortage of memory and speed. I'd think I died and went to heaven if I had 64MB RAM and 400MHZ. Didn't I just describe the Axim 15? Transfer it over to T-Mobile and I'll want for nothing else. (Until the next new thing comes along! :lol:

[mobileMike]

I am really impressed with some of the features Linux PDAs have. I think Microsoft should get an iPAQ and put Familiar Linux and Opie (GUI) on it to get some ideas.

I am not endorsing Linux PDAs (Yet). I think it will be a few more months before the above configuration is ready for everyday use. Keep in mind I have never used a Sharp Zaurus.

Anyway....

With the above configuration you can rotate UI 90 degrees CW, CCW, or 180 degress. You can also rotate individual applications when they start. The browser supports multiple views and the code can be optimized for XScale just to name a few things.

BTW: If microsoft would at least give the source code for PocketPC 2002 to OEM (Shared Source), the OEMs could then recompile/optimize it for their own platform. Does anyone know if this happens now?

- mike

[jwf]

While it MIGHT make sense for a desktop O/S to divide the UI into applications that must be switched between, a Pocket PC isn't a desktop PC. What I'd really like is software that lets me treat the thing like a notebook. I'd like to be greeted by a table of contents instead of an application menu. I want to be able to create text pages, table (Spreadsheet) pages, picture pages, address book pages, todo list pages, web site pages, etc., and organize them into categories and subcategories based on the subject they're related to.

That's exactly how the Apple Newton worked. The UI metaphor was one large categorised scrolling notepad, in which each page could be a note, document, spreadsheet etc. depending on the extensions installed.

I agree with you, I don't want to have to remember which application I put a specific piece of data into on my PDA. The Find functionality on the Pocket PC is a travesty. What is the point in a find function that only searches some of the data. IMO that's worse than useless. FWIW, Palm has this right - most if not all application data is searchable by the system level search function. Possibly my biggest real complaint with the Pocket PC I must admit.

JF

[sesummers]

That's exactly how the Apple Newton worked. The UI metaphor was one large categorised scrolling notepad, in which each page could be a note, document, spreadsheet etc. depending on the extensions installed.
JF
Cool. I never had the opportunity to use a Newton, but it sure seems that the people who did were very impressed by it. The biggest problem I see with something like this is that the paradigm shift between the handheld "notebook" and the PC would make synchronization clumsy. I suspect the benefits would outweigh that though.

Did anyone see the NYPD Blue episode where Andy Sipowitz was given a Palm because he was the senior detective, but he had no idea what to do with it? I think that a notebook metaphor, where the user doesn't have to think about what application he needs to run to create the kind of file he needs to use, would be a lot easier for people like the Andy Sipowitz character to become comfortable with. It doesn't mean the interface has to be "dumbed down" - that implies taking away functionality. It means the interface has to be smarter so that the user doesn't have to think about the tool instead of the work he's trying to accomplish with the tool.

Despite MS's technical prowess, I'm pretty convinced that they're not particularly qualified to innovate something like this. To MS, innovation is figuring out how to integrate "borrowed" ideas into their existing products, not figuring out how to do something BETTER than existing ideas.

[rlobrecht]

I am really impressed with some of the features Linux PDAs have.

BTW: If microsoft would at least give the source code for PocketPC 2002 to OEM (Shared Source), the OEMs could then recompile/optimize it for their own platform. Does anyone know if this happens now?


I really like the form factor of the Zaurus. The slide out keyboard is very cool.

The way I understand it, Platform Builder does contain all the source code for CE. I don't know if this is extended to the rest of Pocket PC when you become a Pocket PC OEM. Don't forget, before Pocket PC 2002, there were three (or was it four) different processors out there running Pocket PC.

[Perry Reed]

While it MIGHT make sense for a desktop O/S to divide the UI into applications that must be switched between, a Pocket PC isn't a desktop PC. What I'd really like is software that lets me treat the thing like a notebook. I'd like to be greeted by a table of contents instead of an application menu. I want to be able to create text pages, table (Spreadsheet) pages, picture pages, address book pages, todo list pages, web site pages, etc., and organize them into categories and subcategories based on the subject they're related to.


Actually that sounds an awful lot like the new OneNote (I think that's the name) application that Microsoft is working on for PCs and Tablet PCs. It would be a very nice addition on Pocket PCs as well.

The main thing I'd like to see on the PPC is a decent email app. Specifically, one that supports HTML emails, a format which is used by more and more of the email I receive.

And a better IE would be good, too...

[jpaq]

I agree with all points.....and then some.

The obvious is Pocket Word and Excel and the lack of pocket Powerpoint. Come on. Palm has a third party vendor with better versions of these apps that are syncable (is that a word?) with the original MS apps.

There should be a bit more consistency in the UI as well. Small point, but the lower task bar does not maintain custom colors applied with custom themes. Another, some of the embeded icons do not match the rest of the UI, and there are other little odds and ends that make the UI look half done, when you dig into it.

Take this CM and shove it!!! Connection Manager should die a slow torturious death similar to the slow torturious processes that it employs to set up internet and network access.

Smart minimize appears to be a compromise of several things. I am in no way an apologist for it, but here's my take.
Windows CE 1.x-2.x had a notoriously bad UI for this aspect (portrait) device (no flaming please).
To maintain the multi-tasking and "Window" functionality that we all know and throw in the face of Palm, MS needed to find a way to minimize an app without closing it (i.e WMP). Hence the original PPC2k minimize. People complained about resource usage of minimized apps that the users actually wanted closed and MS came up with "Smart Minimize". Why did they do it this way? The designers appear to have beaten the engineers in the UI design battle. Functionality took a back seat to form. Look at the top right of your screen (Mac or PC) and you have three buttons. Three buttons would take up too much space at the top right of a PPC device. They apparantly figured that two buttons took up too much valuable real estate as well. So, the engineers had to come up with a way to do all things with one button. They did a pretty mediocre job.

Again, not an apologist, just proposing a possible reason for the current design. If I had my choice, I would have a "Close" and a "Smart Minimize" choice. And if the MS PPC2k3 team is watching, that doesn't mean a setting for the button. That means I would want the ability to do either at anytime on any app!!!

Oh yeah. We need multiple syncing contact folders and Inbox level mailboxes (in addition to Inbox subfolders) too!!!

MS should have an PPC wish list that we could submit too. I've seen other MS Wish lists, but the thing that no company really shows is how they use these types of communications. They never say, "Bob Smith requested this feature, millions agreed, and after careful research and logical assessment we did it."

[scottmag]

While it MIGHT make sense for a desktop O/S to divide the UI into applications that must be switched between, a Pocket PC isn't a desktop PC. What I'd really like is software that lets me treat the thing like a notebook. I'd like to be greeted by a table of contents instead of an application menu. I want to be able to create text pages, table (Spreadsheet) pages, picture pages, address book pages, todo list pages, web site pages, etc., and organize them into categories and subcategories based on the subject they're related to.

I agree completely. It's the concept of document-centricity vs. application-centricity. Almost everyone here raves about how great it is to have a "PC in your pocket" but I think that's a ridiculous idea. It's great that the PocketPC now has the power of a desktop computer, but it would be so much better if it utilized some new thinking in document creation and management. Microsoft has an extensive usability lab and spends vast sums of money studying usability, but for the PocketPC they went with many inappropriate UI elements in order to leverage familiarity with desktop Windows.

We shouldn't first have to think through the design of our document and then choose the appropriate application to create it. We should be able to just start writing on the screen and be able to add any elements to the document as we need - images, tables, formulas, links, text formatting, etc.



That's exactly how the Apple Newton worked. The UI metaphor was one large categorised scrolling notepad, in which each page could be a note, document, spreadsheet etc. depending on the extensions installed.


The Newton was the first thing I thought of when I read that post. The Newton had a notepad metaphor as its main screen. Applications were kept in a drawer and accessible with a tap, like using the Start button I guess. One could just begin writing or drawing at any time. There were also note styles that could be applied, to make a spreadsheet for example.

Everything was stored in a database and accessible/usable by every other application. There was also an Assist feature to perform an action based on what you wrote. So "Lunch with Ed on Friday" could become a datebook entry for 12:00 on Friday with Ed (taken from the address book). Very similar to Actioneer.

My point is that with the Newton you could always just pick it up and start writing. Admittedly the current PocketPCs are much more powerful and capable, but I still think the Newton, even after all these years, is unsurpassed as a PDA.


I agree with you, I don't want to have to remember which application I put a specific piece of data into on my PDA. The Find functionality on the Pocket PC is a travesty. What is the point in a find function that only searches some of the data. IMO that's worse than useless. FWIW, Palm has this right - most if not all application data is searchable by the system level search function. Possibly my biggest real complaint with the Pocket PC I must admit.

I would argue that the PocketPC should run on a database instead of a standard file system, but I would be biting off more than I want to chew.

I'd love to see an application for the PocketPC like the Newton's note pad. Right now, as I contemplate picking up my first PPC, there are so many things I do not like about its design but its power and media capabilities are amazing. I don't know anything about Connection Manager since I've never used it, but I also don't know of any other PDA platform that handles networking very well. And PalmOS certainly is no better at document creation out of the box.

I guess we all have very different needs. I fear that PocketPC will not reach its potential because MS is too tied to the desktop Windows interface and way of doing things. If you think it's just perfect as is, then I am happy for you. But Jorgen's article was the kind of refreshing honesty the PPC enthusiasts should display more often instead of the "Palm is worse" attitude.

Scott

[reidme]

I have both a PPC (Jornada 568) and a Palm device (Treo 300) and I think they both are great, but they both have strengths and weaknesses. To me it depends on whether you want to play (PPC) or organize (Palm).

The PPC is much better at playing games, playing MP3s, playing videos, surfing the web, and viewing content in general. (That also means playing around a lot with connection manager, activesync, and the battery charger.)

The Palm has a much better PIM, UI, and better selection/quality of productivity applications (even for working with MS Office files) and the battery is rarely an issue.

Someday we'll have a device that successfully does both, but we're not there yet.

[Janak Parekh]

I agree completely. It's the concept of document-centricity vs. application-centricity. Almost everyone here raves about how great it is to have a "PC in your pocket" but I think that's a ridiculous idea.
::snip::
I guess we all have very different needs.
Indeed we do. I for one don't want a document-centric organizer, but rather a PC in my pocket. I'd like to be able to surf the web, run telnet or ssh, or do other non-document-centric tasks.

Now, what you are talking about might be accomplished by overhauling the Outlook/Pocket Outlook model, while keeping the underlying operating system intact; some of the work that Mitch Kapor is doing in his next-gen organizer, called "Chandler" (http://www.osafoundation.org/our_product_desc.htm), might prove useful long-term - but this is not going to happen soon on PPC's. The Outlook model works, and while it might not be revolutionary, it does deliver the solution as Microsoft currently wants to.

--bdj

[Pony99CA]

If I had my choice, I would have a "Close" and a "Smart Minimize" choice. And if the MS PPC2k3 team is watching, that doesn't mean a setting for the button. That means I would want the ability to do either at anytime on any app!!!

I'm a UI designer, so how about this. If you click the "X", you get the minimize. If you tap-and-hold the "X", you get a menu with "Minimize" and "Close" in it. Tap-and-hold is a metaphor used by other items in the title bar, and should be reasonable for the "X", too.

Yes, it would be different than desktop Windows, but the "X" is already different (minimize vs. close), and tap-and-hold doesn't even really exist on the desktop (unless you consider different responses to Mouse Down and Mouse Up to be a tap-and-hold variant).

Steve

[Pony99CA]

While it MIGHT make sense for a desktop O/S to divide the UI into applications that must be switched between, a Pocket PC isn't a desktop PC. What I'd really like is software that lets me treat the thing like a notebook. I'd like to be greeted by a table of contents instead of an application menu. I want to be able to create text pages, table (Spreadsheet) pages, picture pages, address book pages, todo list pages, web site pages, etc., and organize them into categories and subcategories based on the subject they're related to.

I agree completely. It's the concept of document-centricity vs. application-centricity.

For document viewing (albeit not creation), you can make the Pocket PC fairly document-centric, with a table of contents. It's actually very simple -- the table of contents is your file manager (but get a better one than the Pocket PC's File Explorer).

In your My Documents folder, create subdirectories for each type of document you want. I have the following:

* Books
* Flash
* Lists
* Music
* Photos
* Spreadsheets
* Text
* Video
* Wallets

When you want to find a document, from your table of contents (File Explorer), select the chapter (subdirectory) you want, then double-click the document (file) you want to open.

How hard is that? Yes, it's not quite seamless, but it's not that bad, either.

There are two problems with this. First, most applications create items directly in My Documents, so you either have to save the document in the correct directory when saving (if the application allows that) or you have to move the document into the correct directory after saving it.

Second, the above scheme won't work with applications which save their data files in private directories (like the same directory as the application, a subdirectory of it, or the Window directory).


We shouldn't first have to think through the design of our document and then choose the appropriate application to create it. We should be able to just start writing on the screen and be able to add any elements to the document as we need - images, tables, formulas, links, text formatting, etc.

Well, a little design up front is usually a good thing. That's why you're taught in school to write outlines for papers and programmers are taught to design before coding.


I would argue that the PocketPC should run on a database instead of a standard file system, but I would be biting off more than I want to chew.

Isn't the Palm based on databases? :-)


I fear that PocketPC will not reach its potential because MS is too tied to the desktop Windows interface and way of doing things.

I think one of the strong points of Windows CE (and, to a lesser degree, actually, Pocket PC) is the similarity to Windows. It makes it much easier for somebody used to Windows to get started, I think.

It may not be optimal for starting to use a PDA from scratch, but Microsoft is all about "Windows Everywhere".

Steve

[jpaq]

If I had my choice, I would have a "Close" and a "Smart Minimize" choice. And if the MS PPC2k3 team is watching, that doesn't mean a setting for the button. That means I would want the ability to do either at anytime on any app!!!

I'm a UI designer, so how about this. If you click the "X", you get the minimize. If you tap-and-hold the "X", you get a menu with "Minimize" and "Close" in it. Tap-and-hold is a metaphor used by other items in the title bar, and should be reasonable for the "X", too.

Yes, it would be different than desktop Windows, but the "X" is already different (minimize vs. close), and tap-and-hold doesn't even really exist on the desktop (unless you consider different responses to Mouse Down and Mouse Up to be a tap-and-hold variant).

Steve

Steve,

Sounds good to me. Seems somewhat similar to Wisbar, but little different.
Who are you a UI designer for?

As far as the tap and hold thing, didn't MS ad that as a PPC equivelent to a right click? :?:

[Janak Parekh]

I would argue that the PocketPC should run on a database instead of a standard file system, but I would be biting off more than I want to chew.

Isn't the Palm based on databases? :-)
Well, what is a "database" and what isn't? A file system is a database indexed by database name. I think Scott may be referring to a transactional ACID-style database, potentially SQL compliant, like what Longhorn will have.

I've done Palm programming, and let me tell you, the database construct is not all that cool - it's basically a manually-serialized data structure. Not that different from a file.

--bdj

[Pony99CA]

Who are you a UI designer for?

Nobody currently, but I've worked for IBM, Live Picture, Mercury Interactive and HearMe/Mplayer. I'm on "sabbatical" now (but if you know someone in the Silicon Valley area who needs a UI person, I'm available). :-)


As far as the tap and hold thing, didn't MS ad that as a PPC equivelent to a right click? :?:

Yes, tap-and-hold is the equivalent of a right-click, but the "hold" part is something users from Windows wouldn't find intuitive at first (in my opinion). You don't normally hold a mouse button down unless you're dragging something.

Steve

[Kati Compton]

Yes, tap-and-hold is the equivalent of a right-click, but the "hold" part is something users from Windows wouldn't find intuitive at first (in my opinion). You don't normally hold a mouse button down unless you're dragging something.


True - but I don't think it'd be all that difficult, actually. Users aren't using a mouse and doing the "hold" - it's a stylus. I think that's different enough from a mouse that they could get used to it pretty quickly, as there really isn't much to "unlearn". It just needs to be clear in a beginner's guide or something.

[Janak Parekh]

And, of course, Mac users have been used to tap-n-hold for years. It's not that difficult. :)

--janak

[Pony99CA]

Yes, tap-and-hold is the equivalent of a right-click, but the "hold" part is something users from Windows wouldn't find intuitive at first (in my opinion). You don't normally hold a mouse button down unless you're dragging something.


True - but I don't think it'd be all that difficult, actually. Users aren't using a mouse and doing the "hold" - it's a stylus. I think that's different enough from a mouse that they could get used to it pretty quickly, as there really isn't much to "unlearn". It just needs to be clear in a beginner's guide or something.
How many people actually read beginner's guides? :-)

I don't think tap-and-hold is difficult, either, but it's certainly not something a normal Windows user would think of, which was my point. You hold things down for dragging, and not much else.

People's habits become very ingrained. If I forget to wear my watch, I'll still catch myself looking at my wrist to check the time.

"Big Thinkers" on Tech TV ran a show about Tom Kelley (http://www.techtv.com/bigthinkers/features/story/0,23008,3387987,00.html) of design firm IDEO (http://www.ideo.com). They helped design the pump toothpaste dispenser, and thought they had also improved the cap. The cap they made just popped off, which was faster and easier than unscrewing it. They were proud of their new design.

That is, until they tested with real people. Not many could get the cap off; they all tried to unscrew it. Do you think people would look on the dispenser for instructions on cap removal? :-)

Steve

[Kati Compton]

It just needs to be clear in a beginner's guide or something.
How many people actually read beginner's guides? :-)

I'd say a surprising number of people do. Not the people that have used computers daily for years, mind you. Just because *we* don't look at them, doesn't mean other people do.


Do you think people would look on the dispenser for instructions on cap removal? :-)


That's a direct substitute. It's something you've bought for years and suddenly it was changed on you. If you're new to PPC, you're not necessarily "used" to how to works. It looks enough different from regular Windows that I think most users wouldn't assume it's the same. Actually probably a smart move to put the "Start" menu on top for that reason. Plus, I still say a stylus is also "different" enough that the patterns are not as fixed as with the toothpaste example.

[Janak Parekh]

How many people actually read beginner's guides? :-)
I disagree with Kati on this - I believe that people don't, either. However, this is why the PPC2002 has the annoying welcome process whenever you turn on a unit for the first time or hard reset it. It would be trivial to add a page in there to explain how the close button works.

--janak

[Pony99CA]

How many people actually read beginner's guides? :-)
I disagree with Kati on this - I believe that people don't, either. However, this is why the PPC2002 has the annoying welcome process whenever you turn on a unit for the first time or hard reset it. It would be trivial to add a page in there to explain how the close button works.

Good point -- the Welcome application would be a great place to show this. It could also fire off a Quick Start guide in HTML or Reader format that would be bundled in Storage RAM (allowing the user to delete it, of course).

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

It could also fire off a Quick Start guide in HTML or Reader format that would be bundled in Storage RAM (allowing the user to delete it, of course).
I guess so, but that's getting a little heavy-handed, don't you think? :) People don't read guides for a reason - they're too long.

On the other hand, I wish that the Welcome process had a skip option, for people like me who occasionally need to hard reset the unit. Maybe make it a hidden gesture or key combination, which is only told to you after the first time you go through (to prevent people who don't know, but think they do, from skipping through).

--janak

[Pony99CA]

It could also fire off a Quick Start guide in HTML or Reader format that would be bundled in Storage RAM (allowing the user to delete it, of course).
I guess so, but that's getting a little heavy-handed, don't you think? :) People don't read guides for a reason - they're too long.

Well, it would be easy to close the file, but they could make it an option, liking reading the ReadMe files during Windows program installation. That way people wouldn't get it if they didn't want to. A "Show the User's Guide" checkbox on one screen wouldn't be too cumbersome.


On the other hand, I wish that the Welcome process had a skip option, for people like me who occasionally need to hard reset the unit. Maybe make it a hidden gesture or key combination, which is only told to you after the first time you go through (to prevent people who don't know, but think they do, from skipping through).

Yes, that would be a nice idea. I don't need to be told how to tap-and-hold any more. :x

Steve