Lower Priced Pocket PCs Will Change PDA Landscape

[Ed Hansberry]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/usatoday/20021120/tc_usatoday/4637151&e=2' target='_blank'>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...day/4637151&e=2</a><br /><br /></div>"The history of geopolitical conflicts is filled with examples of rival governments uniting against common enemies during wartime. It also happens all the time in tech. The latest involves turf wars over personal digital assistants. Dell entered the fray Monday, joining forces with longtime Lone Star State adversary Compaq (now part of Hewlett-Packard) in Microsoft's Pocket PC platoon. This brigade is out to wrest territory from Palm."<br /><br />I really wonder if it weren't for the rumors of the Dell Axim back this summer if we would have the HP iPAQ 1910 and ViewSonic V35 at the price points they are coming out at. In any event, it is going to be good for the consumer. This USA Today article reprinted at Yahoo goes over each of these devices and contrasts them to each other and to some of the new Palm OS devices hitting the streets. Let the battle begin! :)

[Foo Fighter]

No doubt I am in the minority here when I say this, but I believe low priced Pocket PCs will have very little impact on the PDA market. Dell's PDA in particular will go by largely unnoticed by mainstream consumers (Dell won't be selling them retail).

There are other reasons why PalmOS dominates, aside from price. The fact remains, the public prefers (read: LOVES) PalmOS. Of the several million PalmOS users out there, I would be willing to bet that no on is holding a gun to their heads forcing them to use these devices. Just look at Comdex; Dell introduced its PDA at the show on Monday, and yet the Palm Pavilion was PACKED every day. That says a lot.

One reason for Palm's decline in the market is because their products have been so damned boring. Quarter after quarter they release the same old tired rehashed designs. Now that has changed. Palm is exciting again. Sony is surging past HP as the number two handheld maker. And PalmOS is growing again. Where does this leave PPC? Not in a good position. We now have inexpensive Pocket PCs to choose from, but the question is....will consumers even care?

My prediction: Zire will be the number one selling handheld on the market this holiday season. Tungsten is going to leave Axim in the dust.
And the Pocket PC community will be scratching its head in wonderment.

[Ed Hansberry]

No doubt I am in the minority here when I say this, but I believe low priced Pocket PCs will have very little impact on the PDA market. Dell's PDA in particular will go by largely unnoticed by mainstream consumers (Dell won't be selling them retail).

They are getting good results at their retail kiosks, and if this experiment holds, they may start some small retail outlets.

There are other reasons why PalmOS dominates, aside from price. The fact remains, the public prefers (read: LOVES) PalmOS. Of the several million PalmOS users out there, I would be willing to bet that no on is holding a gun to their heads forcing them to use these devices. Just look at Comdex; Dell introduced its PDA at the show on Monday, and yet the Palm Pavilion was PACKED every day. That says a lot.

The public has no clue about the OS. For someone that has never had a PDA, the OS is of no consequence, and there are lots of Palm OS people switching for the higher powered hardware/software possiblities with the Pocket PC. $249 64MB Axim or $299 H1910/V35 makes the $499 Tungsten look sort of silly.
One reason for Palm's decline in the market is because their products have been so damned boring. Quarter after quarter they release the same old tired rehashed designs. Now that has changed. Palm is exciting again. Sony is surging past HP as the number two handheld maker. And PalmOS is growing again. Where does this leave PPC? Not in a good position. We now have inexpensive Pocket PCs to choose from, but the question is....will consumers even care?

Part of the Palm problem is the boring 1996 operating system that even with OS5, shows very little change to the user.
My prediction: Zire will be the number one selling handheld on the market this holiday season. Tungsten is going to leave Axim in the dust.
And the Pocket PC community will be scratching its head in wonderment.
At $99 per device, Palm can have it. It will boost their market share, but their ASP will plummet to the sub $150 range and red ink will continue to flow. As for the Tungsten leaving the Axim in the dust, time will tell. The only thing I know for sure, the Tungsten brings a lot of the dust to the party already (http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7941). :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mookie123]

No doubt I am in the minority here when I say this, but I believe low priced Pocket PCs will have very little impact on the PDA market.

where have you been? It's all about price. It's the cost per feature price. He who offered the most feature at lowest price win!

it's as simple as that.

that's why expensive 'Zen' jibe doesn't fly...

[Foo Fighter]

They are getting good results at their retail kiosks, and if this experiment holds, they may start some small retail outlets.

Since the Kiosks are the only available means of actually looking at the Axim, I'm not surprised. But Dell is limited to only 9 states. That leaves a lot of ground uncovered.

The public has no clue about the OS. For someone that has never had a PDA, the OS is of no consequence,

Not true. Consumers know the name Palm first and foremost. And they usually base their purchase decision, in part, to what people around them use. That means PalmOS.

and there are lots of Palm OS people switching for the higher powered hardware/software possibilities with the Pocket PC.

And there are lots of Pocket PC users switching to Tungstens and Clie NR/NX handhelds as well.

$249 64MB Axim or $299 H1910/V35 makes the $499 Tungsten look sort of silly.

Yep. Tungsten is still going to outsell them though.

Part of the Palm problem is the boring 1996 operating system that even with OS5, shows very little change to the user.

I agree, but the fact remains...people like it that way. If they didn't, everyone would have dumped their Palms by now and gone with PPC..no matter the cost.

It will boost their market share, but their ASP will plummet to the sub $150 range and red ink will continue to flow.

No. This time Palm is actually making profits from a cheap handheld. And it will go even lower than $99. Just wait.

The only thing I know for sure, the Tungsten brings a lot of the dust to the party already (http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7941). :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, don't get me started on the dust issue. :evil:

[Cortex]

A quote from the article...

"Major tradeoff: If you are seeking a PDA that is sleek and light, look elsewhere. Axim is bulky (6.9 ounces) and not nearly as handsome as the 5.6-ounce Tungsten or appealingly thin 4.2-ounce iPaq."

Hey! I know! Lets compare the DUAL SLOT Dell to handhelds with one slot!!!!

He obviously is not a pocketpcthoughts reader or he would have seen that the iPaq with DUAL SLOTS weighs over 1/2 a POUND!!!

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4954

Will people ever learn..... :roll:

[Kati Compton]

A quote from the article...

"Major tradeoff: If you are seeking a PDA that is sleek and light, look elsewhere. Axim is bulky (6.9 ounces) and not nearly as handsome as the 5.6-ounce Tungsten or appealingly thin 4.2-ounce iPaq."

Hey! I know! Lets compare the DUAL SLOT Dell to handhelds with one slot!!!!


I agree that it's unfair to compare the two devices and just say "the xxx is better because it's thinner", unless that is the only feature that you and the people you are talking to are interested in. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to point out the size differences - for many people, the dual-slot feature may not be important, and they could be looking for the thinnest device at that price range.

So saying that no one would want the Axim because of its size is silly, as are statements saying that it is "too big" on an absolute level (esp. given the non-1900 iPaqs). But it is reasonable to say it's too big for one's particular needs (ie, if you want to put it in your pocket). And if I'm looking at the pros and cons - the tradeoffs of my potential PDA choices - size can certainly be a factor. Along with features like expansion possibilities, screen quality, screen size, etc. Size is a comparison metric. It just isn't the only one that should be compared.

That being said, I did order the Axim because of the dual slots (the CF slot in particular... if the Viewsonic or 1900 had CF instead of SD it would have been a much harder decision for me).

[Ed Hansberry]

The public has no clue about the OS. For someone that has never had a PDA, the OS is of no consequence,

Not true. Consumers know the name Palm first and foremost. And they usually base their purchase decision, in part, to what people around them use. That means PalmOS.
That means PalmOS gets them in the store. When they try to write their name with grafitti and get nothing but jibberish, then pick up the cool looking Toshiba or 1910 next to it..... :)

[entropy1980]

It's all about price, a Zire is a glorified Day Runner, stick it next to a $200 Pocket PC (they won't because it's blister packed like a calculator) and then explain how the Zire can store phone numbers, and appoinments and how for a little bit more money they can not only do that but get a color screen, play MP3's, Movies, and have at a minimum 16 times the memory... hmmmm what would I pick, granted I am not an average user, but anybody with half a brain would take the one for slightly more with a grip more features. Stack a $300 Pocket PC next a Tungsten and give somebody 5 reasons why they should pay more for less.... Tungsten has less RAM, no Audio playback (I know it's coming but it's not here and it's not built in), no video playback,smaller screen (not talking resolution, talking physical size) and then tell them it's better, you can't and that's where Palm will lose the Zire is the right price for too little features(come on the the thing doesn't even have a backlight!) and the Tungsten too much $ for not enough features.

[Hans the Hedgehog]

... $249 64MB Axim or $299 H1910/V35 makes the $499 Tungsten look sort of silly.

Yeah, but the Tungsten has built in Bluetooth... add that to one of the others and, not only do you loose an expansion slot, but you also bring the prices pretty close to each other... well, add $150 to the price of H1910/V35/Axim and now you are at $450... now add the fact that you lose a slot, and that probably adds (for some at least) the other $50. Finally, add some more resolution, a well-known brandname, a new design, etc... and they aren't really priced that different.

Cracks me up. You were always defending the high price of some of the previous PPC offerings by saying that by the time you added such-and-such to a Palm, it would be in the same price range.

Now, whether or not the consumer cares is a bit different. My experiences have been similar to what the market reflects: People know Palm, people like Sony, and people like to buy what their friends/family already have.

Hans.

[Hans the Hedgehog]

It's all about price, a Zire is a glorified Day Runner, stick it next to a $200 Pocket PC...

What $200 PPC? Sure, if they don't want the Zire and want color, they may look at one of the cheaper PPC's, but they are still in the market that Palm OS controls ($250 SJ-30 by Sony, etc...) and this is what will kill Dell-- no CompUSA, BestBuy, etc... Yeah, it may change... personally, I don't care too much. I still have my old E-125 kicking around and use Palms/Sonys all day because I program for them for my job... and I like both platforms. But when the average consumer knows that nearly everyone they know uses XYZ as a PDA, then they typically buy XYZ as a PDA... now, in some places that may be PPC or it may be Palm OS, but just because it has more memory is not a true selling point... the consumer wants to know how much they can store, how long will it last between charges, how many apps, does it work with their friends, etc...

I've seen it over and over again. Someone wants a PDA, goes to the store, gets overwhelmed by the features, and finally just gets what they know... typically Palm (just look at the current numbers).

Hans.

[Kati Compton]

It's all about price, a Zire is a glorified Day Runner, stick it next to a $200 Pocket PC (they won't because it's blister packed like a calculator) and then explain how the Zire can store phone numbers, and appoinments and how for a little bit more money they can not only do that but get a color screen, play MP3's, Movies, and have at a minimum 16 times the memory... hmmmm what would I pick, granted I am not an average user, but anybody with half a brain would take the one for slightly more with a grip more features.

I have to say that there are an awful lot of people out there that do just want an electronic glorified Day Runner. Nothing wrong with that - they're just not us.

[mookie123]

... $249 64MB Axim or $299 H1910/V35 makes the $499 Tungsten look sort of silly.

Yeah, but the Tungsten has built in Bluetooth... add that to one of the others and, not only do you loose an expansion slot, but you also bring the prices pretty close to each other... well, add $150 to the price of H1910/V35/Axim and now you are at $450... now add the fact that you lose a slot, and that probably adds (for some at least) the other $50. Finally, add some more resolution, a well-known brandname, a new design, etc... and they aren't really priced that different.

Cracks me up. You were always defending the high price of some of the previous PPC offerings by saying that by the time you added such-and-such to a Palm, it would be in the same price range.

Now, whether or not the consumer cares is a bit different. My experiences have been similar to what the market reflects: People know Palm, people like Sony, and people like to buy what their friends/family already have.

Hans.

in the small thin market:

what's the big deal about getting a $99 bluetooth SD card? yeah yeah...you loose the memory slot while using the SD BT, but how many apps in Palm utilize BT and memory slot at the same time? Can TT even do that trick? Sure theoritically TT can use BT and SD slot at the same time, and theoritically it can play MP3 too, but it can't....not now at least.

and I got the feeling by the time TT gets and app that utilize both BT and SD memory, a version of h1910 with BT will be out already ........maybe even in CES next january..(hey now, that wold be amusing....!)

on the other non small/thin market segment.
no contest, most PPC has dual or even built in wireless.

[entropy1980]

they may want a glorified day runner but why not just buy a day runner? they are only like 50 bucks save the money! Heck my own mother won't go electronic she swears by her day runner, and nothing wrong with that but anyone in the market for a PDA willing to spend 100+ can see that if for only a little more they can get so much more why not? It's no different than what has made places like costco and SAMs club huge people are willing to pay a little more if they feel they are getting more for their money.

[rlobrecht]

Cracks me up. You were always defending the high price of some of the previous PPC offerings by saying that by the time you added such-and-such to a Palm, it would be in the same price range.

The new low priced Pocket PCs have already changed the landscape. Now we're arguing the same arguments in the other direction. It all boils down to this: Palm people and anti-MS people will praise Palm and bash Pocket PC no matter what. MS advocates and Pocket PC people will reverse it. That's why people are going nuts over the Tungsten, and tons of people have spent $750 on an iPaq 3900 series.

But what it really boils down to is consumers. They're going to buy whatever looks cool to them that is priced right, whether its on the shelf at Best Buy, or on the TV being hawked by some dork.

I think the Zire and the Axim will both sell a bunch of units.

[mookie123]

It's all about price, a Zire is a glorified Day Runner, stick it next to a $200 Pocket PC...

What $200 PPC? Sure, if they don't want the Zire and want color, they may look at one of the cheaper PPC's, but they are still in the market that Palm OS controls ($250 SJ-30 by Sony, etc...) and this is what will kill Dell-- no CompUSA, BestBuy, etc... Yeah, it may change... personally, I don't care too much. I still have my old E-125 kicking around and use Palms/Sonys all day because I program for them for my job... and I like both platforms. But when the average consumer knows that nearly everyone they know uses XYZ as a PDA, then they typically buy XYZ as a PDA... now, in some places that may be PPC or it may be Palm OS, but just because it has more memory is not a true selling point... the consumer wants to know how much they can store, how long will it last between charges, how many apps, does it work with their friends, etc...

I've seen it over and over again. Someone wants a PDA, goes to the store, gets overwhelmed by the features, and finally just gets what they know... typically Palm (just look at the current numbers).

Hans.

This just seems to be a marketing issues. But asked yourself, how many desktop even laptop Dell sells to the consumer market without them having a single brick and mortar store? They sell more than eveyr body else in the planet!

and people are very finicky about their laptop.

plus never underestimate Dell advertisement. Once that Dell dude start waving Axim on TV, you never knows what will happen. (okay maybe nothing happens.... but you got the point)

[entropy1980]

and finally just gets what they know... typically Palm (just look at the current numbers).

Hans.

The current numbers don't apply we haven't have comparably priced Pocket PC's tell someone PDA xyz has more features than abc and which one will they buy? Telling someone yeah the Toshiba E330 has 64mb of RAM, can play MP3's, and Video,plus store your appointments, phone numbers, and seemelessly syncronizes with Outlook (which most people already use) for 100 dollars less than a Tungsten.... gee what would they pick?

[bitbank]

I'm surprised I have not seen anyone mention this yet. The $249 and $349 prices Dell is offering are not really that amazing. When you see a $599 Pocket PC in the store, the price has already been marked up typically 20-30% by the retail store, and there may be a middle man involved who got a chunk of that. In essence, HP, Casio, Toshiba and others are only getting $349 for their high-end Pocket PCs anyway. By avoiding the retail channel, Dell can undercut their prices. If HP or Viewsonic were to stop selling retail, then the V35 and iPAQ1910 could probably sell for $199 direct and still make them plenty of profit. I was waiting for some company to come along and skip the retail channel to give us rock bottom prices and Dell was the first to do it. Congratulations DELL!

Larry B.

P.S. Don't jump to conclusions about my idea. I agree that the prices are great and will help bring the PPC prices down. My point is that Dell did not have to do any real sacrifices in manufacturing or quality to get such a low price. All they had to do was remove the middle men.

L.B.

[Kati Compton]

they may want a glorified day runner but why not just buy a day runner? they are only like 50 bucks save the money! Heck my own mother won't go electronic she swears by her day runner, and nothing wrong with that but anyone in the market for a PDA willing to spend 100+ can see that if for only a little more they can get so much more why not? It's no different than what has made places like costco and SAMs club huge people are willing to pay a little more if they feel they are getting more for their money.

Because it's less work to put in a repeating task in a PDA than in a Day Runner. Because a Day Runner doesn't have an alarm feature. Because on a Day Runner you can't play even the small Palm games when you're bored waiting at a doctor's office or at the airport. There's a number of reasons why people would want more than paper, but wouldn't really make use of the features of Pocket PC.

[Kati Compton]

I'm surprised I have not seen anyone mention this yet. The $249 and $349 prices Dell is offering are not really that amazing. When you see a $599 Pocket PC in the store, the price has already been marked up typically 20-30% by the retail store, and there may be a middle man involved who got a chunk of that. In essence, HP, Casio, Toshiba and others are only getting $349 for their high-end Pocket PCs anyway. By avoiding the retail channel, Dell can undercut their prices. If HP or Viewsonic were to stop selling retail, then the V35 and iPAQ1910 could probably sell for $199 direct and still make them plenty of profit. I was waiting for some company to come along and skip the retail channel to give us rock bottom prices and Dell was the first to do it. Congratulations DELL!


It's amazing to the consumer because even though those other units might be marked up by that much, it's all the same to the consumer. Whether it's $600 because of a 20% markup or $600 because that's the actual cost, it's still $600. So if it's $200 because it doesn't have markup, it's still $200. And I like $200 a lot more than $600.

[entropy1980]

Because it's less work to put in a repeating task in a PDA than in a Day Runner. Because a Day Runner doesn't have an alarm feature. Because on a Day Runner you can't play even the small Palm games when you're bored waiting at a doctor's office or at the airport. There's a number of reasons why people would want more than paper, but wouldn't really make use of the features of Pocket PC.

But this still goes back to cost, if I am willing to pay 100 dollars for a Zire than 150-200 is in the realm of reason and if I am investing that much into something why not go for the one that has a bazillion extra things even if I won't use them? The "best deal factor" is a huge variable. Most people own computers which are infinitely more expandable than a PDA even though all they do is word process and email, does that mean people stop buying computers because they have no need for other features they have?

[Hans the Hedgehog]

The new low priced Pocket PCs have already changed the landscape. Now we're arguing the same arguments in the other direction. It all boils down to this: Palm people and anti-MS people will praise Palm and bash Pocket PC no matter what. MS advocates and Pocket PC people will reverse it. That's why people are going nuts over the Tungsten, and tons of people have spent $750 on an iPaq 3900 series.

But what it really boils down to is consumers. They're going to buy whatever looks cool to them that is priced right, whether its on the shelf at Best Buy, or on the TV being hawked by some dork.

I think the Zire and the Axim will both sell a bunch of units.

I wasn't bashing MS or being pro-Palm... just thought it was funny how for the last couple of years Ed, Jason, Andy, Marlof, etc... have always toed the line about total cost, that's all.

Whether or not anyone should buy a Palm or PPC device doesn't really matter to me, what matters is the statement that the H1910's price makes the Tungsten price seem too high. Give me a break... if someone wants bluetooth added to their device, they have to pay. If I have a bluetooth phone and want to connect to it with the H1910, it's going to cost me another $150 (for example, the current price on Toshiba's website). Now I look at the two offerings: --$300+$150+No slot HP-- or a $499 Palm+Slot; for some, this will be a major factor, having the additional slot, for others, not so.

And, sure, the Axim will sell a lot of units, but if Dell treats the Axim as it typically does with other add-ons they sell, their typically terrible delivery time and support will kill them... just ask the many unsatisfied customers who tried to buy add-ons from them (I can think of a few major issues: Canon D60, Sony F-1000 Flash, Epson 2200 printer, and a few others that Dell claimed were in stock and took months longer to deliver than other availability would have suggested).

I still believe, however, that with a PDA, just like a cellphone, holding it in your hands, playing with it, and staring at it will sell more units than seeing in on a website. People do not treat their Desktops or Laptops nearly the same way as they do their PDAs... just look at this site and the continual bashing of one PDA or another. No one really gets that worked up over the look of a basic black laptop... HP, Toshiba, or Dell!

Dell not being at a BestBuy or CompUSA will hurt them-- Dell Dude or Dell Interns or not-- can't hold it, won't sell.

Hans.

[Programmer]

I'm surprised I have not seen anyone mention this yet. The $249 and $349 prices Dell is offering are not really that amazing. When you see a $599 Pocket PC in the store, the price has already been marked up typically 20-30% by the retail store, and there may be a middle man involved who got a chunk of that.

Obviously you have never worked in retail.

20-30% for Electronic devices would be amazing. Its more like 5-7%. SO the other manufactures either had a big margin on PPCs or they will have to scramble to get there prices down.

Robert

[bitbank]

Actually, I have worked retail. My Capcom game emulators are currently being sold by BestBuy and the small % we get from the sales means that middle men and BestBuy are taking a chunk substantially bigger than 30%.

[entropy1980]

Off-topic ......nice Avatar Robert! :wink:

[Ed Hansberry]

... $249 64MB Axim or $299 H1910/V35 makes the $499 Tungsten look sort of silly.

Yeah, but the Tungsten has built in Bluetooth... add that to one of the others and, not only do you loose an expansion slot, but you also bring the prices pretty close to each other... well, add $150 to the price of H1910/V35/Axim and now you are at $450... now add the fact that you lose a slot, and that probably adds (for some at least) the other $50. Finally, add some more resolution, a well-known brandname, a new design, etc... and they aren't really priced that different.

Cracks me up. You were always defending the high price of some of the previous PPC offerings by saying that by the time you added such-and-such to a Palm, it would be in the same price range.
Dell Axim - $199 (32MB model)
BT CF card - $150
Total - $350, and you still have an SD slot that can be used as file system.
The Dells also have a removable battery.

Tungsten T- $499 (16MB of ROM - 14MB usable)
Media Player - MIA
SD slot that is hampered by the requirement to use as a Palm database and not file system.

Sorry - not seeing how the $150 premium for the Tungsten T is closing that gap. You can also get an iPAQ 3870 with integrated bluetooth for around $500. That has 64MB of RAM, an 8MB file store for user data, media player, SD slot, etc.

I am not saying the Tungsten T isn't a fine device. It is, but not at $499.

[mookie123]

Whether or not anyone should buy a Palm or PPC device doesn't really matter to me, what matters is the statement that the H1910's price makes the Tungsten price seem too high. Give me a break... if someone wants bluetooth added to their device, they have to pay. If I have a bluetooth phone and want to connect to it with the H1910, it's going to cost me another $150 (for example, the current price on Toshiba's website). Now I look at the two offerings: --$300+$150+No slot HP-- or a $499 Palm+Slot; for some, this will be a major factor, having the additional slot, for others, not so.


Dell not being at a BestBuy or CompUSA will hurt them-- Dell Dude or Dell Interns or not-- can't hold it, won't sell.


1. how many people do you think buy Palm models from Dell? How many people doyou think pre-order some unreleased Palm model from dell? Now obviously Dell not a complete clueless and have some basic ideas that people are willing to buy PDA without hands on display.

2. like anything else, there is such thing as "good product selling" itself. in sense that a satisfy buyers are the ultimate advertisement. And so far Dell seems to be able to ride and exploit this.

3. The BT SD costs about $130. ($149 is MSRP)
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=599521/search=Bluetooth%2520SD/ut=d84fd02c265fc599

that's about ~$70 bucks different. a pretty nice dinner for two, or about a third of Dell. (I will from now on use Dell Axim X5 as a PDA comparison unit. lol)

plus, like i say, tell me ONE palm application currently using both BT and Mem slot..... JUST ONE......come on.. If the situation is so urgent, certianly there should be a gazzillion "must have" apps out there that use such feature.

[Kati Compton]

Because it's less work to put in a repeating task in a PDA than in a Day Runner. Because a Day Runner doesn't have an alarm feature. Because on a Day Runner you can't play even the small Palm games when you're bored waiting at a doctor's office or at the airport. There's a number of reasons why people would want more than paper, but wouldn't really make use of the features of Pocket PC.

But this still goes back to cost, if I am willing to pay 100 dollars for a Zire than 150-200 is in the realm of reason and if I am investing that much into something why not go for the one that has a bazillion extra things even if I won't use them? The "best deal factor" is a huge variable. Most people own computers which are infinitely more expandable than a PDA even though all they do is word process and email, does that mean people stop buying computers because they have no need for other features they have?

No - it means they've been convinced to get something that's more powerful than they need. I think most people do *not* want to spend $50-$100 more for features they won't use.

But you bring up a good point - they could be tricked into thinking they need the features when they don't, much as they are tricked into getting computers more powerful than they need.

I'm thinking about recommending that my mother get a palm. The cheapest one with a backlight in fact. I personally think it's exactly what she needs.

[mookie123]

w00t??

but, but.....Palm can cause cancer. Your poor mom. 8O

[Kati Compton]

w00t??

but, but.....Palm can cause cancer. Your poor mom. 8O

Hehehe. She just really doesn't need any more than the Palm offers. She needs a good daytimer-type functionality with the benefit of alarms. I don't think she'd even really play games much on it, but I'll probably see if there's a good single-player mahjong-type game. It's the one thing she plays on the PC.

[Ce]

It's all about marketing. If Dell did one thing very wrong it's the marketing of their PDA.

1. When Palm introduced their Tungsten on October 28 it was available in Europe a few days later.
On the other hand Dell. The Axim will be available in Europe sometime next year. When.....unknown...probably Q2. What price....unknown. Available accessoires.....unknown.

2. What reasons do people have when they want to buy a PDA. I think the first and most important reason is to let it replace their paper agenda and That's what Palm communicates.
The PocketPC companies communicate Multimedia, "Power" and "specs".
IMHO 9 out of 10 people are not primarily interested in these kind of things "it's nice to have them" but can it help organizing my life better?

3. The US market is very important, perhaps the most important. But when we are talking about market share we're always talking about global market share. But....you can only buy relative cheap PocketPC's in the US. In Europe the cheapest PocketPC still costs 500 US dollar (500 Euro) or more. The iPaq 3970 still does 800 US dollar.

[Ed Hansberry]

It's all about marketing. If Dell did one thing very wrong it's the marketing of their PDA.

1. When Palm introduced their Tungsten on October 28 it was available in Europe a few days later.
Given Dell has had increasing sales dollars, volumes and market share since going public the late 80's/early 90's and Palm has had decreasing market share, sales and volumes since going public in 2000, the last thing Dell needs to do is emulate Palm's strategy. In fact, doing the opposite would seem to be the smarter thing to do.

[Timothy Rapson]

I think the Dells have definitely dropped all PPC prices by $100 each. I watch them fairly closely and have no doubt that the ViewSonic V35, Toshiba e330, and h1910 were all meant to list for $400.

Dell is actually paying Wiztron $175 or so for each of these, so they are making basically $0 on each one.

I think HP/Compaq are in for a world of hurt in the marketplace from Dell and now Toshiba, and ViewSonic. I have no idea how the Ipaq *ever* outsold the Jornada once the StrongARMs were standard, but they did. Everyone was selling for $500 and up.

The big unknown now is how many new customers want PDAs? I would bet that those who want them, have one already. The market won't grow because Dell brought them down $100-200 in price, because people would rather have a color screen cell phone for IMing and picture sharing than try to figure out how to use a pocket computer.

But, I've been wrong a lot about such stuff.

[Hans the Hedgehog]

plus, like i say, tell me ONE palm application currently using both BT and Mem slot..... JUST ONE......come on.. If the situation is so urgent, certianly there should be a gazzillion "must have" apps out there that use such feature.

And, I guess, mookie123, that 640kb is good enough for all of us? What is the point that you are trying to make? I'll happily admit that the Palm OS is behind the PPC in terms of things like BT apps and what not, but just because there is not an app available now, does not mean that there will not be one in the future. So, when you use a PPC to BT to a cell phone, you don't want to have your storage card available? Maybe to send a picture or database or what? C'mon, give me a break!

I can easily imagine an application that connects through BT to a device/network that could access a database that could be too large to fit within the internal RAM of the device.

But, mookie123, apparently in your world, because it hasn't been done, it can't be done, and isn't important to be done... glad your world doesn't control my world.

Anyways, as to your other points about purchasing Palm handhelds through Dell... you are wrong, they can see the Palm models at their local BestBuy/CompUSA/Staples/whatever and choose to order it through Dell! Can they do this with a Dell? No. If you don't live in one of the 9 states, can't see one, can't hold one.

I personally don't care what platform someone uses. Like I said, I use them both, and see many benefits to both. Each has it's place...

Hans.

[Ed Hansberry]

And, I guess, mookie123, that 640kb is good enough for all of us?
If you are going to bring up a goofy MS quote, at least bring up one that was acutally said, not an urban legend.

[mookie123]

And, I guess, mookie123, that 640kb is good enough for all of us? What is the point that you are trying to make? I'll happily admit that the Palm OS is behind the PPC in terms of things like BT apps and what not, but just because there is not an app available now, does not mean that there will not be one in the future. So, when you use a PPC to BT to a cell phone, you don't want to have your storage card available? Maybe to send a picture or database or what? C'mon, give me a break!

I can easily imagine an application that connects through BT to a device/network that could access a database that could be too large to fit within the internal RAM of the device.

Anyways, as to your other points about purchasing Palm handhelds through Dell... you are wrong, they can see the Palm models at their local BestBuy/CompUSA/Staples/whatever and choose to order it through Dell! Can they do this with a Dell? No. If you don't live in one of the 9 states, can't see one, can't hold one.


-about BT, than my assertion is right, that having BT and a slot is not something critical at this moment. At least not in Tungsten case, since if that feature exist or not pretty much doesn't effect user application. Maybe there will be an app, but hey, like I say..maybe there will be a thin PPC with built in BT before that TT apps show up too.

and no, in your hypothetical example, you can't access BT and using file viewer at the same time in TT, no multi tasking remember? so you have to shut the BT application, launch file explorer...etc etc..

PPC BT user will most likely owning some of the bigger machine instead of h1910 so juggling slot isn't necessary. Do I think h1910 should have BT to compete with TT in thin space? yes..but not now. BT isn't widespread yet apparently.

-about Dell. It seems Dell isn't having trouble looking for customers knowing the online waiting order. You have to wait 3 weeks to get one of those puppy right now. so I am not sure why you keep arguing Dell won't find any buyers for Axims. My theory could be wrong in explaining why people will buy Axim, but you are not in better position in explaining the long waiting list either.

[Kirkaiya]

Because it's less work to put in a repeating task in a PDA than in a Day Runner. Because a Day Runner doesn't have an alarm feature. Because on a Day Runner you can't play even the small Palm games when you're bored waiting at a doctor's office or at the airport. There's a number of reasons why people would want more than paper, but wouldn't really make use of the features of Pocket PC.

I'm thinking about recommending that my mother get a palm. The cheapest one with a backlight in fact. I personally think it's exactly what she needs.

This is exactly correct (about the Franklin Planner/Dayrunner vs. a PDA). When people who don't really know what a PDA is ask me to explain it, I usually say it's sort of a "digital dayrunner", and they then understand - and I usually get the same question of, "Well, why don't you just use an actual Dayrunner then?"

In addition to the reasons you mentioned (repeating tasks, alarms, games), I usually add, "It's smaller, It synchronizes with my main computer, so I have copies off all my recent emails to read over and respond to". AND (i use a today plug-in), it shows me all my upcoming meetings and tasks for the next week when I turn it on. AND I can listen to music on it, AND any notes I take don't have to be retyped later if I want to use them - I can open my notes right up in Word on the Desktop. AND I have it set to pull down info that i want to read about (nobody ever knows what AvantGo is) from the internet, so I always have up-to-date info. AND I keep my checkbook in there, in MS Money, and THOSE can sync to your desktop as well (or you can use the pocket Quicken, if you have desktop quicken).

Also, I explain how when I get an email from sombody (on my desktop), I can just drag the person's email over to the "Contacts" folder in Outlook, and it automatically creates a new contact for them, and fills in the name and email (name depending on the email header format). And that contact automatically goes into my PDA - if I upate the person's number, or address or whatever in one place, it gets updated in the other, no scratching out old numbers, writing in the margins, whatever.

Also - my iPaq (and my Viewsonic, now showing a Dec 4th arrival day..) can store ALL my contacts and calendar stuff going back to my first real PDA, in 1998 - my old Franklin Planner just held one year of stuff at a time, and a pain to keep changing out the months...

So anywaze - if you buy into the whole owning a computer and getting emails, a PDA (any PDA) can be a great help organizing. My wife uses a Palm Vx, and we're giving her sister (24 year-old college student) a Sony Clie SL10 (?) model for her birthday in 2 weeks, to help her stay organized with classes, work, etc.

[b]whew[b]

As for the raging Palm OS vs. Pocket PC debate - As much as I hate the Zire, I now understand why they sell. We were in CompUSA and I was interrogating the PDA-section guy about when they were getting in Viewsonics, etc., and my wife walked up with a Zire and said, "Hey, I think I'm getting this for my sister for her birthday". After I finished retching, I explained that it was such a piece-o-crap, with lousy screen and no expansion, that we could get her a Sony clie for not much more ($8 more, as it turned out).

People here (this thread) have already identified the major issues: Palm has wide name recogntion (How many times have I had to explain my iPaq by saying, "it's like a Palm, only better", and then the understanding shines in peoples' eyes. People *know* what a "Palm-pilot" is, and for a lot of them, whether it's running Helio OS, or Linux, or Pocket PC, or Palm OS, it's still a "Palm-Pilot".

That, and the fact remains that you can get a decent, expandable Sony Clie (another brand people know and trust immensely) for under $200. Not color, granted, but with an expansion slot, and a high-res 320x320 screen. I think these new lower cost Pocket PCs WILL change the landscape some, but for now, Palm OS still rules the low end.

Anyway!

[Jason Dunn]

Also, I explain how when I get an email from sombody (on my desktop), I can just drag the person's email over to the "Contacts" folder in Outlook, and it automatically creates a new contact for them, and fills in the name and email (name depending on the email header format).

Holy crap! I didn't know you could do that! 8O

COOL! :D

[Jeff Kirvin]

My prediction: Zire will be the number one selling handheld on the market this holiday season. Tungsten is going to leave Axim in the dust.
And the Pocket PC community will be scratching its head in wonderment.

Some notes from the front...

I recently took a job working the PDA counter at CompUSA (seemed like a natural fit, and I have fun talking about PDAs all day). We haven't sold a single Zire. The Sony T series is moving the most, probably because they've been marked down to just above the uglier S series. The Tungsten T gets fondled a lot, but I haven't seen anyone walk away with one yet. The iPAQ 3955, Toshiba e335 and the venerable Audiovox Maestro are also high-interest items. I had an older guy in yesterday that was looking to upgrade his Palm VII - of which he never used the radio - to something smaller. He was initially interested in the SL-10 and the Palm m105, but once I showed him Transcriber on the Maestro - which goes on sale tomorrow - he was hooked.

Conventional wisdom isn't. PalmOS needs more than the Zire and Tunsten T to survive now that Pocket PCs have dropped into the sub-$300 range.

[Kirkaiya]

Also, I explain how when I get an email from sombody (on my desktop), I can just drag the person's email over to the "Contacts" folder in Outlook, and it automatically creates a new contact for them, and fills in the name and email (name depending on the email header format).

Holy crap! I didn't know you could do that! 8O

COOL! :D

Ahh, young padmi, you have much to learn in the Jedi arts....

(okay, so I just finished watching Phantom Menace on TV, I had to say it)

[Hans the Hedgehog]

And, I guess, mookie123, that 640kb is good enough for all of us?
If you are going to bring up a goofy MS quote, at least bring up one that was acutally said, not an urban legend.

Okay, Ed, whatever :roll: I don't really care if it is an urban legend or not, Ed, you got the point, didn't you? You obviously understood the point I was making, yet you still need to be petty and try to throw around your "knowledge" as fact. Prove to me that is an urban legend! Jeesh...

and no, in your hypothetical example, you can't access BT and using file viewer at the same time in TT, no multi tasking remember? so you have to shut the BT application, launch file explorer...etc etc..

You crack me up, mookie123. So, you are telling me that someone could not write an app that accesses BT and a storage card! You are wrong! That is one of the things my company is working on right now. I develop in-house apps for a very large HVAC company and we are working on a device which connects via BT to a PDA to check diagnostics of the heating/cooling unit. I have had no problems connecting the BT while accessing a database either in RAM or on a storage card.

C'mon, just because it doesn't exist now doesn't mean it can't.

Hans.

[mookie123]

and no, in your hypothetical example, you can't access BT and using file viewer at the same time in TT, no multi tasking remember? so you have to shut the BT application, launch file explorer...etc etc..

You crack me up, mookie123. So, you are telling me that someone could not write an app that accesses BT and a storage card! You are wrong! That is one of the things my company is working on right now. I develop in-house apps for a very large HVAC company and we are working on a device which connects via BT to a PDA to check diagnostics of the heating/cooling unit. I have had no problems connecting the BT while accessing a database either in RAM or on a storage card.

C'mon, just because it doesn't exist now doesn't mean it can't.

Hans.

no, I am saying, the feature isn't critical, since nobody has a software that require such feature yet. It it is critical, hence affecting buying decission, there would be at least a gazillion software titles that need BT+slot at the same time. My speculation is, by the time such feature is a necessary feature in a PDA, it will be a standard feature in thin PPC, nothing to worry, all in good time.

In the meantime good luck with your Palm software development, you gonna need it.

[Ed Hansberry]

Also, I explain how when I get an email from sombody (on my desktop), I can just drag the person's email over to the "Contacts" folder in Outlook, and it automatically creates a new contact for them, and fills in the name and email (name depending on the email header format).

Holy crap! I didn't know you could do that! 8O

COOL! :D
No dragging necessary. Right-click on the sender's name or any of the recipients and select Add to Contacts.

[Ed Hansberry]

Okay, Ed, whatever :roll: I don't really care if it is an urban legend or not, Ed, you got the point, didn't you? You obviously understood the point I was making, yet you still need to be petty and try to throw around your "knowledge" as fact. Prove to me that is an urban legend! Jeesh...

Impossible to prove a negative. And no, I didn't get your point as I guess the gist of the post was to slam MS for shortsightedness by ragging on Bill Gates for somethign he never said.

[Ed Hansberry]

In the meantime good luck with your Palm software development, you gonna need it.
No kidding. Things that fall together with the MS dev tools are a nightmare on the Palm OS. There are a number of Palm apps now running on the Pocket PC that are a real chore to keep the Palm side of things up now.

[Hans the Hedgehog]

Impossible to prove a negative. And no, I didn't get your point as I guess the gist of the post was to slam MS for shortsightedness by ragging on Bill Gates for somethign he never said.

No, Ed, I was not bashing MS or Bill Gates... you are truly too defensive for MS :( . My point was that at one time no one could understand (yes, even someone with the vision of Bill Gates) why a PC might need a different feature (in this case more RAM), that, to some, seemed obvious.

And I like the fact that you stick with the idea that Gates never said that comment; yet, you cannot provide any proof that he didn't say it. And, in this case, a negative can be proven, just ask the man if he said it.

When you search for the quote, it comes up in many respectable places all attributed to Bill Gates in and around 1981. Now, if all these "reliable" sources are all wrong, then it really won't matter in the future because it will remain true until Bill Gates himself attempts to discount that he ever said it. And I highly doubt that everyone is participating in some grand urban myth... but I could be wrong-- at least I'm open to the idea.

But, Ed, of course you must be right; after all, you always are! :roll: Even when you cannot provide any contrary evidence, you have convinced yourself it must be an urban myth.

And thanks, mookie123 and Ed, for your good wishes with my Palm development. I'm not sure why you think I'll need it. After all, PPC's market share is dropping. Even if PPC can begin to do better, the Palm is still a very viable platform. Remember, just because you think the world revolves around PPC, it doesn't. :P

I'm not sure why you think the dev tools are hard to work with... I find them much more logically arranged and useful than MS VC++ or the whole .NET fiasco. Yeah, if you have been raised only on MS, then it's fine... but if you have been raised on something else, then the MS dev tools can be a righteous nightmare to figure out. But that's just my opinion.

Oh yeah, we'll be working on the program for PPC, as well...

Hans.

[Ed Hansberry]

Impossible to prove a negative. And no, I didn't get your point as I guess the gist of the post was to slam MS for shortsightedness by ragging on Bill Gates for somethign he never said.

No, Ed, I was not bashing MS or Bill Gates... you are truly too defensive for MS :( . My point was that at one time no one could understand (yes, even someone with the vision of Bill Gates) why a PC might need a different feature (in this case more RAM), that, to some, seemed obvious.

And I like the fact that you stick with the idea that Gates never said that comment; yet, you cannot provide any proof that he didn't say it. And, in this case, a negative can be proven, just ask the man if he said it.

When you search for the quote, it comes up in many respectable places all attributed to Bill Gates in and around 1981. Now, if all these "reliable" sources are all wrong, then it really won't matter in the future because it will remain true until Bill Gates himself attempts to discount that he ever said it. And I highly doubt that everyone is participating in some grand urban myth... but I could be wrong-- at least I'm open to the idea.

But, Ed, of course you must be right; after all, you always are! :roll: Even when you cannot provide any contrary evidence, you have convinced yourself it must be an urban myth.

Those "respectable places" didn't bother to ask anyone, thy just assumed it was true.

http://hotwired.lycos.com/netizen/97/02/katz3a.html is just one place that disputes this. You can look for more with Google yourself, but the noise from the places repeating it with other quotes makes the search tedious. You will notice that no place will ever tell you the speech (despite that most of his speeches still exist), the place, the context, the city, the audience and ususally not even the year it was said. I did find one place that had "1986" for the year with is laughable because Windows 1.0 was already underway and would deal with more than 640K of RAM.

But as I said, I cannot prove he never said it. The denial of Gates himself will not convince you. But Think of the logic of it. Gates, who has more stuff swimming through his brain on the possibilites of a computer, many of them way out there, would limit his thoughts to a computer with 640K of RAM? That would be like Bill Clinton saying "one woman is enough." It just goes against his character. But you believe what you want, just like you believe the PPC marketshare is dropping. Just a point away at the end of the 3rd quarter from 30%, an all time high for the market, and that is with no real new products since spring 2002, and the Jornada 560 killed off by then. Whatever makes you sleep at night. :roll: