PALM OS is STABLE while Pocket PC's CRASH AND BURN

[rave]

Apologies in advance for the flame bait title. Now that I have your attention, I have a serious question:

I've been planning to get a Pocket PC as a replacement for my old Palm IIIc, but those reviews and articles mentioning hard resets and crashes scare me. Will I be experiencing a lot of the same when I get my own PPC? Or are they just hype and isolated cases?

Thanks. :)

[Jonathon Watkins]

Welcome Rave.

Nice of you to join us - though that kind of title can indeed get you into trouble around here. :wink:

I too have a IIIc and I have to tell you - I only reset the PPC slightly more than I used to with the Palm - i.e. hardly ever. I would not worry about it too much. Just make sure you backup/sync regularly - but then again you would do that anyway. :wink:

What kind of price/size had you in mind? The Viewsonic V35 or Dell Axim X5 seem like good choises at the moment. Of course we need to see what new machines Toshiba will bring out. It's all go in the PPC area at the moment. :D

[rave]

Hi, I actually decided to get a PPC quite a while back, but internet research and common sense told me to wait until the announcement of Dell's PPC and the new iPAQ's. I guess the wait is gonna pay off; I'm specifically eyeing the 64MB Dell. I don't care about the physical size... for sure it's not going to be any bigger than a IIIc. :wink:

I guess it's expected to see a bit more soft resets in PPC's since from what I've read, more software titles require it after installation, much like desktops. What scares me are the hard resets and data loss scenarios.

I know that those user reviews should be taken with a grain of salt, and it's not uncommon to read comments from Palm fanboys and users who never read manuals. But of course, the paranoid in me is urging me to get further confirmations. Thanks for your comments... and keep 'em coming. :)

[Steven Cedrone]

I have only hard reset a Pocket PC twice:

1) When MS released the password powertoy(my HP548 broke the powertoy - later MS issued a warning not to use the powertoy with the HP's)...

2) When trying to find a way to replace the contact database without doing a full restore(a pet project)...

That's it (and that's 2+ years)...

Steve

Both incidents were caused by me doing something above and beyond, same as the times I had to Hard reset my Palms (I broke them the same way)...

[Janak Parekh]

I guess it's expected to see a bit more soft resets in PPC's since from what I've read, more software titles require it after installation, much like desktops. What scares me are the hard resets and data loss scenarios.
There's a large misperception here IMHO. With most traditional Palm devices, people would do rather straightforward tasks. PPC's, being full "computers", enabled you to do much more dramatic stuff. If you take a stock PPC and use it, it should be rock-stable. However, if you load 15 different apps down of dubious quality, expect trouble. I do have to soft-reset my device a bit, but that's because I push it to the limit sometimes. I've gone months without a soft-reset even with many apps installed (all of good quality though - I tend to be very conservative), and I can't remember the last time I did a hard-reset (except when I had to send a defective unit to HP... that's a story for another time).

PalmOS, actually, happens to be a rather unforgiving OS... if you've ever tried an unstable app, you'd know what I mean (the dreaded infinite Soft Reset loop when using a buggy hack, for example).

--bdj

[Pony99CA]

I've had an iPAQ 3650 and 3870 for the last 18 months or so. I've only had to hard reset once, and that was because Pocket PC 2002 EUU2 required a hard reset. I haven't had to do it for any unforeseen reason.

Of course, now I will. :roll:

Steve

[Pony99CA]

2) When trying to find a way to replace the contact database without doing a full restore(a pet project)...

Was there any specific reason you wanted to do this?

Depending on what you expected synchronizing to do, I'd think this would be fairly simple. Something like this should work:

1. Copy the Contacts database from the Pocket PC you want to your host using ActiveSync.

2. Delete the Contacts database from the Pocket PC containing the database you want to replace. (Warning -- this might cause any contacts on your host PC to be lost if you're connected as a partner, but that may be what you want.)

3. Copy the Contacts database from your PC to the Pocket PC.

I don't know what effect that would have on synchronization, though. With luck, synchronizing after this would populate Outlook with the new contacts.

Try the above at your own risk. :-)

Steve

[Coralie]

I've been planning to get a Pocket PC as a replacement for my old Palm IIIc, but those reviews and articles mentioning hard resets and crashes scare me.
keep i mind that what you read here & in articles is not necessarily the majority of user experiences, especially in the case where problems are mentioned.

the people with problems, simply because they're having problems at the time, are the loud minority. i don't mean this in an offensive way at all, i know that if i'm having problems of a ppc nature i do whatever i can to find solutions .. of course.

i have an ipaq 3630 & even though i have had to make one hard reset & a fair few soft resets, since i've made myself a good backup plan, it's really not an issue. most of my problems are simply because my 3630 only has 32mb of ram & it lives its life with less than 5mb free at any given time. i'm sure it's pushing the boundaries.

i'm very happy with my ppc & am just hanging out for another six months or so to buy the second latest model. sticking with the second latest model (of anything) not only saves you lots of money, but means that others can work out the bugs before you get there .. :wink:

sorry, got kind of off topic there, but i hope i've made sense anyway. :)

[rave]

Thanks for all the replies. :)

BigDaddyJ: I know what you mean by "dubious apps". In the Palm OS, most come in the form of hacks. Luckily my hacks haven't reached critical level yet. In any case, it's comforting to know that a "stock" PPC has rock-solid stability.

ferrous: I guess we have the same "second latest" philosophy. I consider a good portion of any new product's price as the cost of owning the "bleeding edge". Besides, the price would usually be so high I won't be able to afford it. (though the Dell *could* be an exception... :D )

[spursdude]

In my opinion, both types of resets are overdramatized.

I've only performed a hard reset once, and that was when I was being a moron and didn't realize that i could've easily fixed my own problem without a hard reset. Anyways, it wasn't that bad, considering I just did a restore process which, though it took a while, was perfectly fine and everything was back to normal.

As for soft resets, those are EXTREMELY overhyped.
1. I hardly ever soft reset. Every once in a while Windows Media Player will freeze up on me, and I have to do a soft reset. You're right - a Palm won't do that...oh wait because a Palm can't play MP3's. (sorry i just had to put that in there)

2. A soft reset is nothing dramatic or scary. I pop out my stylus, hit the reset button, and in about 5 or 10 seconds, everything is back to normal. I've never lost data on a soft reset, either.

So bottom line - backup your Pocket PC every few days or weeks (and I do'nt even do that), treat it well, and you have pretty much nothing to worry about, in my opinion.

[ti2gr]

I too, have just transferred from Palm to Pocket PC, and after reading this thread feel better about making the decision. I had also heard of the "hard resets" and data loss being very problematic on Pocket PC's. But when the opportunity came up to get a new Toshiba pocket PC at half price I couldn't pass it up. A $400 unit for $200 (e335).

So far I've had it almost a week and have had no problems with it. The sync time is longer than the palm side was, but a few minutes here and there isn't going to kill me.

So far the biggest plus for m is that I use Microsoft Outlook with Franklin Covey's Plan Plus software and there have been a number of issues withthe Palm apps for this software. But so far the Pocket PC apps are doing great. Have not experienced any of the problems I had with the Palm side.

Other BIG features I have seen to are the Excel and Word capabilities, sure beats Documents to Go, and the ability to sync directly with Money 2003. (I could with the palm, but the palm app cost more than Money 2003 did, so I didn't).

So far my experience with Pocket PC has been far better than I imagined it would be.

Sorry about the rambling

[grahamwilton]

I am an IT Manager with over 6 years IT support experience in Microsoft networks.

I have owned two HP Jornada handhelds and have supported about 10 palms and 5 Pocket PC based devices.

Palms are the most difficult to support as each different device needs a whole host of its own unique different software and updates to get even a partial synchronisation with Outlook. I have heard people say they never have problems but have never seen anyone get reliable synchronisations in a networked Exchange/Outlook environment, I have therefore ignored them any further.

Pocket PC's are a dream, Microsoft OS's and synchronisation software, a dream to install and setup!. Does it work reliably though? No, it does not. My device has just decided to combine the information on my device and my pc after the partnership failed for about the 20th time this year and got it very very wrong for about the 4th time this year. I am now left with empty calendar, Contacts and files on both my device and my Exchange/Outlook Mailbox. As for getting my mailbox to synchronise forget it, works sometimes, mostly not, won't download attached files, gets stuck and bombs out on others, not enough capacity for a busy professional and when you do need to view an email you can't view it anyway as the formatting is way out.

MP3 and WMA, again what a waste of time, if you can afford the extra memory the sound is very weak unless you convert at 192kbps (5-10mb per track), which PPC WMP won't support when sending music to your device. Pocket WMA does not support the track information, nor playlists from your PC either. If you want to use it for music, allow about an hour every day to use windows explorer to cut and paste the music over and create your mobile playlists and pray it doesn’t crash.

Games, so far so good, although basic games only. As soon as the game gets to quick, like speedball2, you can feel the button falling apart. Screen based movement games are better, but you don't want to get to heavy with it as the screen scratches really easily. Protectors are awful and blur the screen and are a nightmare with sensitivity.

Excel - forget it you can't spin the screen round to view it nicely in landscape, so you are stuck with the normal portrait view and can only see everything properly once you zoom in at about 25% and everything is so tiny you can barely read it.

Word - Easy enough, but can you trust it to synchronise the document afterward, no you cannot.

Backing up everything constantly is the only way you can guarantee data security. This is almost workable with ordinary files, but you ask your IT Support people if they can restore a few calendar entries for you when you PPC trashes your outlook data. Most will stare at you blankly because they have always ticked the exchange backup box on the backup system without actually considering whats involved with restorations. If you are lucky enough to have a IT support team with funding and skills that can restore your mailboxes it will almost certainly be complete folders only.

The bottom line is I have spent days searching Microsoft Technet, HP.com and cannot get to the bottom of my issues. I have wiped my PPC and installed fresh on several different computers, although all on Windows 2000 Pro in two different organisations. My experiences are not down to me being unlucky. It is reality, these devices are gimmicks, designed for those for us who enjoy technology, who like to fiddle, explore techie things. They are not useful. I for one will stick to a normal diary and will photocopy it every Friday. It will be cheaper more reliable and the total cost of ownership will be much much less.

PS If you can solve any of my problems I would love to hear from you.
I

[spursdude]

I'm surprised by all the troubles you've had. In my 7 months of Pocket PC experience, I've never had any data loss whatsoever.

As for Windows Media Player, I love the media functionality of my Audiovox Maestro. With a CF to PCMCIA adapter, I can drag and drop music onto the card instantly, all at 64kbps WMA files. The sound quality is fairly decent, and I can fit plenty of music on my 128MB CF card. Although the sound quality isn't comparable to stand-alone music devices, it definitely works well enough for me, and it's just soooo convenient.

As for Word, I'm not sure what you mean by not trusting it to synchronize. My files always synchronize, although I don't even need them to.

Although backing up is a good idea, I have never felt the need to do so. I trust the reliability of my Pocket PC, and synchronizing with the computer is enough comfort for me.

[alan williams]

When I was brand new to Pocket PC, I had a hard reset. It was my fault for loading things in an odd manner, deleating things I should not have...just mucking things up in general.

While I have had a number of soft resets since that time, I've not had another hard reset.

In compairison, I have needed to hard reset my Palm PDAs probably about 3-4 times in the past 4 years.

I find both platforms to be very stable all things considered.

[Janak Parekh]

I find both platforms to be very stable all things considered.
Oh no! Someone rational on the board? Down, I say! No flamewars make life dull. ;)

--bdj

[Jonathon Watkins]

:onfire: :onfire: We LOVE flamewars! :wink: :onfire: :onfire: :way to go: Palm, Linux, Symbian, they all BBQ well. :twisted:

[szamot]

grahamwilton

Get rid W2K it is not worth the trouble. I found that once I moved to XP my worries evaporated especially those concerning syncing problems and data corruption. I use XP Pro built 2600 mostly unpatched because our network engineers are about 2 years behind and since I support my own site I get to have what works for me. My nightmares started with Palm 505 and W2K when half the time the damn thing would not recognize the USB device. I soon abandoned W2K and Palm505. I went through 4 iPAQ’s in about 7 months, once I had a bad system board and the damn thing would hard reset itself after each sync. That was fixed and it is nothing but smooth sailing on both of my units. I only have 1 USB port on my IBM Stinkpad and about 10 things going in and out and I am yet to have a single problem with either the iPAQ or the X5. When things work they are wonderful. When they don’t you just send them back.

[PhatCohiba]

Apologies in advance for the flame bait title. Now that I have your attention, I have a serious question:



First things first. Virtually all of the topics are read by at least 100 people, and by the contributions, I'm sure you realize this isn't your usual-unwatched- "measure posts by a calendar" forum.

2) I want to re-emphasize the difference between a soft and hard reset.

A soft reset is akin to Rebooting a Windows machine. No data / progams / anything is lost, the os reloads and you can continue on your merry way. Depending on what you're doing (browsing Internet, listening to music / videos / loading crazy software) you could end up soft reseting daily.

A hard reset is the bad one. It basically means that all of the data in the system memory is gone. It is basically akin to reinstalling your OS.

The best way to insure yourself against a hard reset is to do the following.
1- Get a memory card (you don't lose data on a card when you hard reset)
2- Get a backup program to backup your system installed apps and data.
3- Backup to your memory card.
4- sync your calendar / contacts / etc to a desktop where you'll have them anyway.

ps. Most of the veterans here will tell you to install as little as possible on your system because that memory is shared by the running OS. Fewer apps / data on the system, more memory for running apps. :P Also, smaller system, smaller backup file. I have an old 48 mb cf that I use just for that. Every now and then when a lot of stuf has changed, I create a new backup file.

I've only had a unplanned hard reset once or twice, and not for months now. (Sometimes the rom updates require a hard reset.)

[The Big Jay]

:onfire: :onfire: We LOVE flamewars! :wink: :onfire: :onfire: :way to go: Palm, Linux, Symbian, they all BBQ well. :twisted:

Everything BBQs well, just add enough gasoline to it...

[SJ]

'PocketPC sucks, the OS is unstable, it's abrick (it'll drop your pants off), who needs multimedia/color etc....'.

I thought these propaganda from the Palm zealots are getting a bit old :D

[Pony99CA]

As for Word, I'm not sure what you mean by not trusting it to synchronize. My files always synchronize, although I don't even need them to.

Word documents don't "round-trip" well if you edit them. If you create a document on your host PC with even some common features (fonts not on your Pocket PC, styles, tables), Pocket Word will display it to the best of its ability without the formatting. If you edit that document, however, when you synchronize it, you'll find the document on your host PC has lost the formatting and now looks like the document on the Pocket PC. That's usually not what you want. :-)

It makes sense, in a way, but if you don't know about the problem, you can really hose your document. The text will be there, but you'll have to reapply all of the styles.

Steve