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View Full Version : Samsung Low-Cost Concept Pocket PC Design


Jason Dunn
11-11-2002, 07:12 PM
A picture is worth a thousand words, so here are the first images I've seen of the new Samsung concept design. At only 2.9 ounces, this is the lightest Pocket PC I've heard of. I've requested further information on this device, but in the meantime, enoy the pictures!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/samsung-mini.jpg" /><br /><br /><!> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/Samsung concept design SD slot.jpg" /><br /><br /><PAGEBREAK> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/Samsung concept design PPC.jpg" /> <br /><br /><PAGEBREAK> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/Samsung concept design back.jpg" />

mookie123
11-11-2002, 07:26 PM
thank gawd it's not white plastic.......

another iPOD/zire look alike......I will run amock with plastic fork

feo
11-11-2002, 07:28 PM
Hey where's the directional keypad?, I thought that was a must. How are you suppossed to play games without it? :lol:

Arne Hess
11-11-2002, 07:30 PM
Hey where's the directional keypad?, I thought that was a must. How are you suppossed to play games without it? :lol:
Voice... :lol: :wink:

portus
11-11-2002, 07:37 PM
I don't think this level of device is for game playing. It seems to target the students and low-end customers who wants to use a decent PDA for day-to-day dunctions with a low price they can afford. How's it different from Dell's low-end price point? All I can tell is this bunch of device is designed to sell in "huge" quantity and essentially intended to kill out low-end palm devices, which in turn may lead Pocket PC devices into PDA monopoly ...

portus
11-11-2002, 07:40 PM
Hey where's the directional keypad?, I thought that was a must. How are you suppossed to play games without it? :lol:
Voice... :lol: :wink:

Voice commands in such a device? You've got to be kidding. Though no directional pad is in sight, the picture showing the back of the device makes me wonder ...

Paul
11-11-2002, 07:47 PM
Cool, I was actually wondering when Samsung would get into the PocketPC market. This may be a good start but hopefully some higher end models will debut.

Jason Dunn
11-11-2002, 07:50 PM
I can only see this device succeding if it's significantly cheaper than the Dell and Viewsonic Pocket PCs. Greyscale and no D-pad? $99 max.

mv
11-11-2002, 07:54 PM
Ok... this device is saying... Dead palm die!!! :) Who will afford a zire if this cost the same?

sponge
11-11-2002, 07:57 PM
Suicide if you ask me, especially if it's not compatible with most colour apps.

However if it's less than $100, it CAN'T be bad.

Kirkaiya
11-11-2002, 07:58 PM
Hey Jason (and everybody) - the original post you put up (the quote) *does* say grayscale OR color, so possibly both versions will be produced.

And I think that a lot of people would be willing to pay $150 for a greyscale one, even at that price, depending on how much memory it comes with. Don't forget that a lot of people are still walking around with their Palm V's, M125's, and even Palm IIIs, so for them, it might seem like an affordable upgrade to a pocketPC, and grayscale might not seem that important to them (to be honest, for a PIM, color isn't super-high on my priority list, although having owned an iPaq, I don't want to go back).

Just my 2 cents!

Ed Hansberry
11-11-2002, 07:58 PM
A $99 device will sell if B&W. This isn't designed for games. I hope it makes it to market - for $99 or less.

Kati Compton
11-11-2002, 07:59 PM
Ok... this device is saying... Dead palm die!!! :) Who will afford a zire if this cost the same?

I think people that are looking for low-cost devices may also be looking for free software, in which case I'm pretty sure Palm still has the edge, although the PocketPC seems to be starting to catch up...

KyleC
11-11-2002, 08:01 PM
Wow. 8O There is a disturbance in the Force! With $500-$600 Palms and $99 Pocket PCs I suppose that this handheld is the one that will bring balance (and possibly tip the balance of the Pocket PC to Palm ratio!) to the Force. :D

ThomasC22
11-11-2002, 08:22 PM
Mark my words, this device (and probably the Zire as well for that matter) are dead in the water.

Here's the thing, there isn't that much of a difference between $99 and $199. I know, I know, for some people there is that much of a difference but those people shouldn't be getting PDAs in the first place.

For everyone else, this is pretty useless. PDA manufacturers seem to have forgotten that they're still a toy for most people...

Chris Spera
11-11-2002, 08:26 PM
Mark my words, this device (and probably the Zire as well for that matter) are dead in the water...

Amen!

I've owned monochrome devices before. I don't care how cheap they are; after about 6 months (if not sooner) I became EXTREMELY dissatisfied with my iPAQ 3150 and dumped it for a 3650.

I don't care how affordable (read cheap) this device ends up being. Its going to line the bottom of a lot of drawers. Color devices may be a bit more expensive, but are now more affordable (Dell Axim, Viewsonic V35) than ever. Thow away devices like this bother me a great deal; but that's just my opinion...


Christopher Spera

Ed Hansberry
11-11-2002, 08:29 PM
Mark my words, this device (and probably the Zire as well for that matter) are dead in the water.

Here's the thing, there isn't that much of a difference between $99 and $199. I know, I know, for some people there is that much of a difference but those people shouldn't be getting PDAs in the first place....

I disagree. $100 to a student is not easy, but doable. $199 may elevate it to "nevermind" status. Gifts too fall in this category.

sesummers
11-11-2002, 08:31 PM
Check out the article in ZDNet News at http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-965265.html.

In it, David Nagel (Presiden of PalmSource) says:

"Dell certainly will have an impact in the handheld computing market... but mainly because of their distribution and sales [expertise]. They will bring Microsoft PocketPC pricing closer to that of Palm [OS-based devices] but even Dell can't close that gap completely."

Uh, Palm Tungsten- $500, Dell's low end machine- $250 (-$50 rebate). Palm: 16M, Dell, 32M. Palm: Single tasking. Dell, Multi-tasking, plays MP3's while browsing the web. Palm: Nifty slide out grafitti area. Dell: So what?

OK, we'll do apples to apples- Palm's lowest price color machine, has an ugly, 4K color 160x160 pixel display, and costs $250. Dell's (PocketPC's) lowest price color machine, has a beautiful, 64K color, 240x320 pixel display, and costs $200. So how has Dell not closed the gap, already? By not meeting the $100 price tag of the monochrome Zire? Enter Samsung, pushing Pocket PC's down to that price, but with more memory and MP3 playing ability. Bang- they're dead.

David Nagel is clueless. PalmSource (and Palm) are doomed.

uvahoos
11-11-2002, 08:42 PM
The Samsung site mentions that it can support 64K color also. If the B&W version would go for ~$99, then maybe a color one might be ~$150. If that's the case then I think this would make a huge impact on PocketPC marketshare.

At the $150 price I could finally get a decent PDA for my wife or mother and not feel like I was spending too much for the few features that they would really need!

It's always good to see somebody breaking the mold a little and trying to do something different. Based on Samasung's technical model, it looks like this device could be open to a lot of modification and new uses in the right hands.

ThomasC22
11-11-2002, 08:42 PM
I disagree. $100 to a student is not easy, but doable. $199 may elevate it to "nevermind" status. Gifts too fall in this category.

Well, we'll just have to see...but here's a few things to consider:

You rarely see students playing a PS/1 or Super Nintendo, they are the biggest purchasers of Xboxes and Playstations.

You rarely see a student with a Black & White TV, or a 13" TV, they usually have pretty good TVs.

You rarely see a student with a boom box, they usually have fairly good stereos.

Point being, students find ways to get money for their toys, always have, always will. As for a gift, sorry, but the thing looks cheap and I doubt any self respecting parent or grandparent would buy one.

Ce
11-11-2002, 08:49 PM
"The new design incorporates a Samsung ARM9-based S3C2410 application processor"

Is this processor technicaly the same as the current Intel Xscale processor? If not.....it's very, very, very strange that MS supports this processors while it has, obviously, no interest in supporting the current Xscale devices.

AZMark
11-11-2002, 08:54 PM
This is just a low end spec. It most likely kills off the requirement for mic, ir, speaker, rocker or dpad. You might also see the loss of some of the built in software.

It doesn't mean mfgrs can add them back in if they like.

PPCRules
11-11-2002, 09:09 PM
Just think: If Dell hadn't changed our expectations by announcing a $200 color PocketPC device, we'd still be thinking a "low-end" color device gets $300, so a monochrome model like this would be introduced at $200. But instead, we're saying $100.

It's tough saying it's worth an extra $100, but owning both a color PocketPC and a mono model, it would be hard for me to recommend a mono version to anyone (unless maybe if they would be using it outside all the time). Color make such a huge difference, even in simple text applications.

By the way, very little PPC software won't run on a mono device. Some is harder to use, a few programs may not really be usable at all (only due to color choices by the programmer, who really had no reason to worry about it because mono PPC didn't really exist), but most programs would run just fine and be fully usable. If a large user base of mono models developed, most software would be adjusted to optimize viewing on both.

szamot
11-11-2002, 09:27 PM
I was hoping that mono was dead and that was the upper hand PPC had over the Palm that it was color, however having said that we might very well see this device in a few months after the release to hit the $79 US mark. However Dell being Dell we might very well see their low end color devices hit the $150 US mark or even $99.00 and Palm might very well be dead with that kind of marketing.

jpaq
11-11-2002, 09:31 PM
OK.
Question and speculation.

There are two things on the back view that catch my eye.

1. on the left side (side with the red dot), what is that? It looks almost like a pull out panel of some kind. I doubt that's what it is, but that's is what it looks like.
I figure that must be some kind of odd stylus.

2. On the right side (opposite of the red dot side) there is a little panel towards the top. Is there, could there, should there be a jog dial of some kind there?

PhatCohiba
11-11-2002, 09:36 PM
Did anyone notice that this device appears to be missing a:

- D-Pad (others pointed this out)

- Speaker (only a headphone jack)

- Mic (hmmm.)

If I was deploying a business app on hundreads of devices, then $99 vs $299 is a big jump. This could make quick inroads. Can someone dig up those unit numbers on the sub $100 devices. If I remember correctly it was a HUGE chunck of palm's business.

I think that this a definate challenge to fight for the low end of the market and could put palm out of business.

-John

mookie123
11-11-2002, 09:41 PM
Hey where's the directional keypad?, I thought that was a must. How are you suppossed to play games without it? :lol:

It will come with telekinesis SD card of course....

ECOslin
11-11-2002, 09:45 PM
Yep, the PocketPC industry does need a student version to spur sales. I've been appalled that the entry level for this type of device, and not a Palm type, has been starting at $300 for entry level machines.

I don't consider the Palm/Handspring or Psion devices to be anything like an entry device to the PocketPC type. Apples, oranges and tomatoes.

This industry needs a bubblepack Walmart packaged device. What will you get the kids for their birthday, Power Ranger toy or PDA with ABC school rom pack for the same price. The lines need to blur to make PocketPCs the obvious choice to the absolute ignorant.

I'd like colorful, not obviously cheap, bright happy color screen, speaker, touchscreen, no direction disk is fine, memory needs to be user upgradeable by ram pack, happy windows startup logo when turned on like 'Apple Macs', this doesn't have to be the fastest thing - just usable and not a piece of crap, flash card memory cards need to be standardized. What about those colored blocks used in original Star Trek(just kidding).

Edward

Newsboy
11-11-2002, 09:58 PM
I'm most interested in:

Battery life! This thing probably runs forever! If it does run for a long time between charges, I'd actually consider one. Of course, at $99, I'll probably buy one just to add to the "collection". :lol:

Also remember that although this device looks small now, when OLED active matrix displays hit the market, this will merely be "average" size. For me, that day can't come soon enough!

mookie123
11-11-2002, 10:10 PM
I'm most interested in:

Battery life! This thing probably runs forever! If it does run for a long time between charges, I'd actually consider one. Of course, at $99, I'll probably buy one just to add to the "collection". :lol:

Also remember that although this device looks small now, when OLED active matrix displays hit the market, this will merely be "average" size. For me, that day can't come soon enough!

I can't find anything about power consumption for this chip.

but from Samsung .pdf, it can support about half dozen different brand of screen, from 4 color bw to 16bit color, so all depends on what a manufacture will put in. Give it a super Huge 4 inch HVGA high quality B/W screen. This can make the ultimate ebook machine. (without the DRM please....)

bjornkeizers
11-11-2002, 10:13 PM
I'd love to have one of these. If battery life is OK, and if they add a jog dial [doesn't need a D-pad, but at least *something* to scroll your books or contacts would be nice..

I agree that this wouldn't be the primary for most of us: we all have nice PPC's with color and D-pads, because there wasn't much else: they were all quite expensive!

I wouldn't use it as my primary device, but I could use it as an expendable backup; something to carry around on the holidays, in the train, or hand out to a relative or to give as a gift.

So in short, sell it for under a hundred dollars, add a rocker/jog dial and you got a sale.

toshtoshtosh
11-11-2002, 10:15 PM
As for a gift, sorry, but the thing looks cheap and I doubt any self respecting parent or grandparent would buy one.

I actually think the design looks really really nice. This thing is pretty.

Why are people complaining about this device, I don't get it. The more variety, the better (even if it doesn't fit your needs). It also weighs half of the current lightest PPC.

mv
11-11-2002, 10:18 PM
A few monts ago, my girfliend bought a palm m100. Why? It was only $60! she was not sure about needing a pda... so she wanted to save money. Maybe she will be soon wanting a color ppc not to expensive - like the v35 (I´ll think i´ll just buy two of them :)) People who is new to pda wants to try cheap first. (I´m an exception. My jornada 548 did cost me $599 in august 2000) but this will sell. I´m sure.

uvahoos
11-11-2002, 10:21 PM
1. on the left side (side with the red dot), what is that? It looks almost like a pull out panel of some kind. I doubt that's what it is, but that's is what it looks like.


I am going to take a guess and say that dot is to indicate the infared port. If you look just above the dot, there seems to be a raised piece, most likely a cover for the IR port.

heov
11-11-2002, 10:25 PM
In other news, have you checked this out?
http://www.pdahandyman.com/archives/000451.html

With the samsung device and the above device, it can really put a hamper on palm's price points (even though the above is proprietory, but heck, it's got a modem!)

Anyway, if this thing can serve as an mp3 player for 20 hours, i'll buy it- so long as it's got a decent backlight. Anyway, where is the external speaker? I hope it's not on the back...

WillyG
11-11-2002, 10:30 PM
I really welcome this PDA and i really do hope it makes it to the market. If the prize really is 99$....ME WANTS REALLY BAD! (as a second device for me. but im especially thinking of it for my colleagues.)

Keep in mind that many of us are power users, and this isnt targeted on us. As responcible for buying pda's (amoung others) for a fairly large company i often find myself in a dilemma this device could solve.

For experienced users there really is no choice. Pocket PC all the way.
But then we have the users who use the "cd-roms" on their puters as cofecup holders, and those who talks into their mices. Some are even almost afraid of their PC's. What do i buy for them? a 600-800$ PPC? Nope, you guessed it. I have to jump over the hedge and bring back somthing with a Palm label on (a m100/105) no matter if i like it or not.
Then if the user dont get it, we havent throwed money out the window.

Its not just related to expenses . Some users just need a PIM and maby 1 extra application. This Samsung thing looks nice for just that. Imagine what batterylife this thing will have. Again somthing that suits forgetful users (charging). And lets face it. There is more work and more difficult for an inexperienced user restoring a PPC than a Palm from a total flat battery. With Palm you just pop it into the dockingstation and sync. When done, all applications and user data are "automaticly" restored. With a PPC that process often involves starting an installprogram and other "scary" and unintelligible things for a novice.
After all this is Windows + reasonable input methods. This is somthing a novice will like and be more familiar with.

I really see this device as a rescue. It could allow me to switch all users, experienced or not, over to Pocket PC, thus ending supporting both OS'es once and for all!

DSAINMON
11-11-2002, 10:31 PM
Looks like a great device for the Walmart Crowd

(In overexaggerated southern accent) "Joey-Ray, I can't go huntin no buffalo today, I gots a business meetin' at 4!"

Seriously, though, this looks like a good entry level PDA that wlll get ambitious handheld users into the PocketPC world.

WillyG
11-11-2002, 10:34 PM
I actually think the design looks really really nice. This thing is pretty.


I agree 100%. Seems like there is no speaker, but it got a headphone jack, so it aint speechless eiter :)

uvahoos
11-11-2002, 10:35 PM
(In overexaggerated southern accent) "Joey-Ray, I can't go huntin no buffalo today, I gots a business meetin' at 4!".

We really don't have that many buffalo here in the South... :D

We're more likely to use a cheap PDA to lookup spare parts numbers for all of the cars sitting on cinderblocks in the front yard.

PPCRules
11-11-2002, 10:42 PM
It seems to me that a long time ago, I heard that Microsoft mandates certain features on pocketPC devices as part of the licensing, like microphone, speaker, (voice recorder, actually, covering both of these), non-proprietary expansion, headphone jack, 320x240 screen, etc. Does anyone know more about this? Anyway, not seeing a mic/speaker may be a) Miscosoft having a new license option for a low end device, or b) this is a concept and doesn't have to meet these requirements, or c) they somehow don't show.

Actually, the red dot would indicate the record button on the top edge, just like the other icons on the other side of the top. So it must implement a voice recorder, and the mic is on top next to the record button.

Of course, it's a concept design, so it really doesn't matter.

mookie123
11-11-2002, 10:46 PM
This is sort of a throwback from Sony's Info carry from about 5 yrs ago.

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/iidakoji/images/vnw-v10c.jpg

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/iidakoji/infocary.htm

Jason Dunn
11-11-2002, 11:02 PM
Is this processor technicaly the same as the current Intel Xscale processor? If not.....it's very, very, very strange that MS supports this processors while it has, obviously, no interest in supporting the current Xscale devices.

It's an ARM processor, which means Microsoft doesn't have to do anything special to the Pocket PC OS in order to support it. It's the "same" as the Xscale processor insofar that it is ARM-based, but it willy likely perform quite differently.

AKBishop
11-11-2002, 11:09 PM
I think a lot of people have $100 as the top of their budget for buying something like this. In regards to the comment that those people can either afford $200 or shouldn't be purchasing them in the first place, that is crazy.

As someone already mentioned, it's a practical gift-giving price. For parents with 2+ kids who want to get them each a device, spending just $100 more adds up quickly per child. For college students, many (believe it or not) actually don't have the latest gadgets / stereos / TV's and don't a lot of money to spare for something like this, but still feel the need. Pocket PC's make great substitutes for laptops when it comes to calendar / note-taking / etc. uses.

You also have the people who only care about price whether or not they can afford more. They set a price limit and don't care what's over that.

This looks great. If it comes out, I might buy a couple as gifts myself. I know people in my family that are in school that could use one, but I'm not rich enough to give out $200 christmas gifts. (okay, okay I probably shouldn't afford $100 gifts, but sometimes, as in the case of Pocket PC's, it's important and isn't that what credit cards are for?)

ThomasC22
11-11-2002, 11:28 PM
I think a lot of people have $100 as the top of their budget for buying something like this. In regards to the comment that those people can either afford $200 or shouldn't be purchasing them in the first place, that is crazy.

As someone already mentioned, it's a practical gift-giving price. For parents with 2+ kids, getting spending just $100 more adds up quickly per child. For college students, many (believe it or not) actually don't have the latest gadgets / stereos / TV's and don't a lot of money to spare for something like this, but still feel the need. Pocket PC's make great substitutes for laptops when it comes to calendar / note-taking / etc. uses.


Well, again, there isn't any way I can prove my point or you can disprove it so we'll just have to wait for sales figures (although I might add the Zire is selling pretty badly I hear). But I still say that anyone who can afford to spend $100 instead of $20 on some cheap radioshack unit, will probably be able to pop for the $200. Plus, I doubt any "Pocket Keyboard" manufacturers are going to be rushing to make one for this device simply because targeting the cheap crowd isn't really the way to make money.

ECOslin
11-11-2002, 11:50 PM
This is sort of a throwback from Sony's Info carry from about 5 yrs ago.

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/iidakoji/images/vnw-v10c.jpg

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/iidakoji/infocary.htm

They also show a picture of it emulating? a Palm.

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/iidakoji/images/sonypalm.jpg

I don't see that these devices could be related.

Edward

AKBishop
11-11-2002, 11:51 PM
Well, again, there isn't any way I can prove my point or you can disprove it so we'll just have to wait for sales figures (although I might add the Zire is selling pretty badly I hear). But I still say that anyone who can afford to spend $100 instead of $20 on some cheap radioshack unit, will probably be able to pop for the $200. Plus, I doubt any "Pocket Keyboard" manufacturers are going to be rushing to make one for this device simply because targeting the cheap crowd isn't really the way to make money.

I agree with you. Someone who spends $100 on a device won't spend $50-100 on a keyboard / memory card / etc. I'm sure if this comes out, no one will make money on this. However, hopefully it will get Pocket PC into more users' hands who then want a better one down the road.

This just might be the kind of cheap "accessory" that computer makers (except Dell, of course) give away free with purchase of a computer. (Although what kind of tiny market is that?)

BTW - I do think you're right in that most people will opt for the $150-200 device for things like a color screen and more. When they start shopping for a PDA, they'll start looking at $99 and then get convinced by salesperson/whomever to look at the next model up. So if they start looking at a $99 Palm, they may purchase a $150-200 Palm. But if they start looking at a $99 Pocket PC, they may purcahse a $150-200 Pocket PC.

I'm sure Samsung is considering all of this, so let's see if it ever appears in the marketplace at all.

szamot
11-12-2002, 12:30 AM
I find it hard to believe that this device would have no speraker, it will most certainly defeat the purpose of having one. To carry one of these things with an earplug would be dumb, I am sure there is some sort of a speaker on it perhaps like Palm Vx had, perhaps it is behind one of the buttons. PDA without a speaker is like a cell phone with out the key pad - think about it.

ThomasC22
11-12-2002, 12:34 AM
PDA without a speaker is like a cell phone with out the key pad - think about it.

Says the guy with an XDA as his avatar :)

(btw - I know what you meant, I just thought that was funny)

szamot
11-12-2002, 12:44 AM
PDA without a speaker is like a cell phone with out the key pad - think about it.

Says the guy with an XDA as his avatar :)

(btw - I know what you meant, I just thought that was funny)

Ahh - a man can dream of an XDA....especially in Canada. I know Jason has one and that's about it.

T-Will
11-12-2002, 12:45 AM
LOL!

Landis
11-12-2002, 01:15 AM
I agree 100%. Seems like there is no speaker, but it got a headphone jack, so it aint speechless eiter :)

It HAS to have some sort of speaker. How is it going to remind you of appointments otherwise?

If it has stereo sound, it would make a very affordable MP3 player as a bonus!

Fishie
11-12-2002, 01:31 AM
This device isnt the first pocket PC that lacks a directional controller, computer chain Vobis in Germany has been selling a colour PPC for quite some time now that also lacks it so this device isnt the first PPC to possibly ship without it.

Gremmie
11-12-2002, 01:56 AM
Well, we'll just have to see...but here's a few things to consider:

You rarely see students playing a PS/1 or Super Nintendo, they are the biggest purchasers of Xboxes and Playstations.

You rarely see a student with a Black & White TV, or a 13" TV, they usually have pretty good TVs.

You rarely see a student with a boom box, they usually have fairly good stereos.

Point being, students find ways to get money for their toys, always have, always will. As for a gift, sorry, but the thing looks cheap and I doubt any self respecting parent or grandparent would buy one.

As a student I can say these things are usually bought between a student and a roommate. Any student is usually interested in TV, but most non-CS and Cmp E majors really don't know handhelds that well, therefore they buy the least expensive one because they don't know how beneficial it is.

Rob Alexander
11-12-2002, 02:37 AM
I've owned monochrome devices before. I don't care how cheap they are; after about 6 months (if not sooner) I became EXTREMELY dissatisfied with my iPAQ 3150 and dumped it for a 3650.

I don't care how affordable (read cheap) this device ends up being. Its going to line the bottom of a lot of drawers.

So you bought two products instead of one. I can't imagine that Compaq was the slightest bit displeased that you bought their inexpensive entry level device, and then turned around six months later and bought their more expensive one. Do you think they care that your 3150 is sitting in a drawer if it means they sold yet another PPC? If I were selling a product line, I'd love to have as many people as possible do exactly that.

There's a market for these. There are lots of people who simply cannot imagine that these could really be useful (certainly not at the $500 level we've all been paying), but who might give it a go for $99. Some of those will be satisfied and some will become enthused and upgrade to better units. Either way, the original product had a legitimate place in the market.

Jonathan1
11-12-2002, 03:47 AM
Oh where to start. First off everyone repeat after me. THIS IS A LOW END DEVICE!!! For all you tech heads scoffing at it because it doesn't have a D-Pad, or a Mic, or a speaker, or (God forbid) color, realize that this is intended to compete head to head with Palm's low end devices. Why do you think the title of many of the articles releasing this info is Microsoft and Samsung on Monday announced they have teamed up to develop a design for low-cost handhelds MS realizes that that 75% of the market share that Palm owns is made up of users with sub $300 and sub $200 PDA's. This is intended to be a tactical nuclear strike at the heart of Palmville. No one here is going to buy it simply because the specs suck. (Come on! Who here is going to settle for 32MB of RAM now a days?!?!? GEESH!) But for those non techy people who just want a PDA this thing is going to be golden. Esp if it has the core PPC apps, can play audio, and has a great batt life.

This is GOING to send shockwaves down the halls of Palm. The question is will they get this out before the X-Mas shopping season. IF they could this could be a serious coup for MS which, sadly, I don’t want to see yet. MS has a lot of innovation to go before it can rest on it laurels and if this holiday season really goes their way they may kick back and pat themselves on the back. :-\

Kati Compton
11-12-2002, 04:15 AM
Yep, the PocketPC industry does need a student version to spur sales. I've been appalled that the entry level for this type of device, and not a Palm type, has been starting at $300 for entry level machines.

A lot of my friends just buy used to solve the price problem.

heov
11-12-2002, 04:23 AM
It seems to me that a long time ago, I heard that Microsoft mandates certain features on pocketPC devices as part of the licensing, like microphone, speaker, (voice recorder, actually, covering both of these), non-proprietary expansion, headphone jack, 320x240 screen, etc. Does anyone know more about this? Anyway, not seeing a mic/speaker may be a) Miscosoft having a new license option for a low end device, or b) this is a concept and doesn't have to meet these requirements, or c) they somehow don't show.

Actually, the red dot would indicate the record button on the top edge, just like the other icons on the other side of the top. So it must implement a voice recorder, and the mic is on top next to the record button.

Of course, it's a concept design, so it really doesn't matter.

non-proprietory expansion: seems to be fasle; iPaq 3700 has no memory exapnsion- just proprietory sleeve concept. Also, Acer has released 2 ppcs in china with memory sticks. Also, SD is proprietory I believe, cause people have to pay a liscencing/royalty fee for it, unlike CF and MMC where they are truly open standards.

DPAD: also seems to be false as HP Jornada 540 series, though only PPC2k, and the Aero 1550 did not have dpads, and neither does the MiTac Mio (or something like that), which IS ppc2k2...

This thing's got to have a speaker, because as someone mentioned, how are you going to here about alarms; let's just hope it's not on the back!

I've always wanted a cheap, well made-from the ground up, mono device with the best battery life. I disliked the iPaq 3100 because it was a stripped down color version- it seems this is built from the ground up, and wighing 3oz is quite amazing.

OFF TOPIC: why don't most PPCs have vibrating things in them? will it hurt other chips inside... some palms have them and so do some clies

mememe
11-12-2002, 05:35 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words, so here are the first images I've seen of the new Samsung concept design. At only 2.9 ounces, this is the lightest Pocket PC I've heard of. I've requested further information on this device, but in the meantime, enoy the pictures!


Still one problemo'.. it uses the MS OS :-(

Certified Optimist
11-12-2002, 07:14 AM
Nice!

Now... it someone could make a tigh-fitted, hardshell, waterproof case for this one I would definately buy and extra PDA and use it for when I would normally not bring along my "normal" Pocket PC. E.g snowboarding, hiking you name it.

Take1
11-12-2002, 08:07 AM
I have a 3150 and think THE major reason it failed is not the lack of color, but the lack of RAM and the UTTER CRAP monochrome screen it had. If they did more of a handspring silver rather than muddy grey/green screen, it would have been quite decent.

If Samsung uses a white LED instead of a green indiglo type of backlight, this would be a fantastic eBook reader and I'd definitley think about getting one. That's why I originally got the 3150, the super battery life the thing got!

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
11-12-2002, 09:35 AM
&lt;...>

I don't care how affordable (read cheap) this device ends up being. Its going to line the bottom of a lot of drawers.

&lt;...>

There's a market for these. There are lots of people who simply cannot imagine that these could really be useful (certainly not at the $500 level we've all been paying), but who might give it a go for $99. Some of those will be satisfied and some will become enthused and upgrade to better units. Either way, the original product had a legitimate place in the market.

Totally agreed. Power users (which in college are usually the CS majors) will of course want color, but remember that there is a significant number of people carrying around cheap Palms and Visors without a thought in the world about color. Those same people can look at this device and think, "hmm... MP3 support... larger resolution... etc" and see the increased value.

Remember that this device is not likely targeted at those already in the PPC camp. It's designed to steal marketshare from Palm users who desire small, efficient devices (and don't care about color).

...and if at the end of the day, they use the cheaper PPCs and later desire color, well PPC vendors will only be more happy to show them the more expensive devices.

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
11-12-2002, 09:37 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words, so here are the first images I've seen of the new Samsung concept design. At only 2.9 ounces, this is the lightest Pocket PC I've heard of. I've requested further information on this device, but in the meantime, enoy the pictures!


Still one problemo'.. it uses the MS OS :-(

*cough*... note the original reference to "Pocket PC".

Pony99CA
11-12-2002, 10:04 AM
Mark my words, this device (and probably the Zire as well for that matter) are dead in the water.

Here's the thing, there isn't that much of a difference between $99 and $199. I know, I know, for some people there is that much of a difference but those people shouldn't be getting PDAs in the first place....

I disagree. $100 to a student is not easy, but doable. $199 may elevate it to "nevermind" status. Gifts too fall in this category.
I agree, Ed. I think $100 makes more difference at the low end than the high-end. It's less of a jump (percentage-wise) from a $649 iPAQ 3870 to a $749 3970 than it is from a $99 PDA to a $199 PDA.

As for ThomasC22's "those people shouldn't be getting PDAs" comment, is there any Pocket PC Thoughts Hall of Shame? That's one of the most ignorant comments I've seen in a long time. :-( Maybe poor people shouldn't get computers or TVs or VCRs, either. :roll:

Steve

Pony99CA
11-12-2002, 10:11 AM
I agree 100%. Seems like there is no speaker, but it got a headphone jack, so it aint speechless eiter :)

It HAS to have some sort of speaker. How is it going to remind you of appointments otherwise?

Vibration and flashing LEDs, perhaps? I can't seem to find it now, but I remember seeing a Vibration setting in the registry of my iPAQ 3650 or 3870 for reminders.

But I do agree that sound is actually important for a PDA. There must be a speaker in there somewhere.

Steve

Pony99CA
11-12-2002, 10:16 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words, so here are the first images I've seen of the new Samsung concept design. At only 2.9 ounces, this is the lightest Pocket PC I've heard of. I've requested further information on this device, but in the meantime, enoy the pictures!


Still one problemo'.. it uses the MS OS :-(

*cough*... note the original reference to "Pocket PC".
I'm not sure I get your point. Isn't Pocket PC a Microsoft Operating System (MS OS)?

I think ekkie was making a joke, saying it's not a Palm. Or perhaps "ekkie" is David Nagel? :lol:

Steve

roberto_torres
11-12-2002, 12:41 PM
Add color and D pad to this thing and it will definitely take over the handheld marked.

enemy2k2
11-12-2002, 02:13 PM
I think that if this device does come in at around the $100 mark it will definitely be more than enough to compete with Palm at the low end of the market. I'd really like to hear more technical specifics about this one, but I'm willing to bet that it won't be something that I'm too interested in. I'm sure one of the reasons the D pad was left out because of space requirements, it would have lengthened the unit a good amount to have that in place, also it acts as a distinctive boundary between low and high end. I'm really curious as to the power of this thing and how much RAM it will come loaded with. The size is just incredible. That combined with a low price will make this, I'm sure the most convenient PDA around for those who want a cheaper basic PDA but also something that has a popular OS that has programs available for it. That would lead to the question of compatibility. I'd like to see how this plays out.

ECOslin
11-12-2002, 02:18 PM
Leave it cheap. It may not be the handheld for you or me, it has good potential to be an introductory unit to someone who might not consider buying a PocketPC otherwise.

Edward

enemy2k2
11-12-2002, 02:24 PM
I agree, it definitely should be left cheap. If it has MP3 capability, I think this may just be the one I'll buy my little sister. As for speaker, seeing as how there's no speaker grill, I would venture to guess that it would have a piezoelectric speaker - like a pager. But probably more likely and space saving to boot is a speaker similar to those in digital alarm watch casebacks, thin and flat, glued right onto the back panel. Given that their diameter is large enough, they have enough power supplied, and are of decent quality - they can go fairly loud. Which by any means for a low end device would certainly be good enough.

mookie123
11-12-2002, 02:37 PM
If I am not mistaken iPOD uses ARM9 too, or is it ARM 7? plus from the pdf file, it does support philips generic sound chip.

ThomasC22
11-12-2002, 03:45 PM
As for ThomasC22's "those people shouldn't be getting PDAs" comment, is there any Pocket PC Thoughts Hall of Shame? That's one of the most ignorant comments I've seen in a long time. :-( Maybe poor people shouldn't get computers or TVs or VCRs, either. :roll:


No, they shouldn't get TVs or VCRs...

No, I kid, I kid....

Seriously, I wasn't saying people who didn't have an extra $100 shouldn't buy a PocketPC I'm saying those who would opt for a $100 device over say, a $20 device at radioshack probably could afford the extra hundred dollars. That goes hand in hand with your "some people will buy the cheapest thing available" theory.

Further, your logic is flawed in assuming that those non-technical people will go for the specifically for the cheapest PocketPC rather than the cheapest organizer.

PLUS, as I said, the Zire seems to be failing for just this reason, those people who need an organizer but don't have much money due tend to go for the even cheaper generic models.

Hank Scorpio
11-12-2002, 05:44 PM
PDA without a speaker is like a cell phone with out the key pad - think about it.

Says the guy with an XDA as his avatar :)

(btw - I know what you meant, I just thought that was funny)

Ahh - a man can dream of an XDA....especially in Canada. I know Jason has one and that's about it.

There's alot of XDA's here in Canada, well at least I know a bunch of us in Toronto.

Jason Dunn
11-12-2002, 06:38 PM
Still one problemo'.. it uses the MS OS :-(

And you're complaining why? Look up at the URL for this site and stare at it until you grasp that this is a Pocket PC site. :roll: Thanks.

fmcpherson
11-12-2002, 07:34 PM
The articles that I have read about this say that this is a reference platform. No company has actually signed up to manufacturer these devices, so I wouldn't expect to see them any time soon, if ever. My guess is that this is more of a trial balloon than anything.

I'm not sure how appealing a monochrome Pocket PC will be. I have the orginal Pocket PC software on an old Compaq 1500 and it's not the best experience. The Pocket PC UI is clearly designed with the intent of color being used.

Jonathan1
11-12-2002, 09:44 PM
Still one problemo'.. it uses the MS OS :-(

And you're complaining why? Look up at the URL for this site and stare at it until you grasp that this is a Pocket PC site. :roll: Thanks.

Geesh Jason. There ARE people out there that aren't interested in the Pocket PC OS. Does this mean that they can't speak their mind? Cut people some slack who don't think the PPC OS has been touched by the hand of god. I'd expect that from Apple web sites and Palm web sites but, maybe its me, as of late it seems anytime someone says anything even slightly negative about the Pocket PC you pounce on it almost like a personal offense. :? Plus the post wasn't exactly flame bait. It wasn't like the guy was going "its Pocket PC so it'll fail" or anything like that. He just stated an opinion...

PS-I still love my Jornada, iPaq 3700, and Casio EM-500 but I'm also willing to slam any company, be it Palm, Microsoft, HP, or Handspring when it warrants it. I’m an equal opportunity complainer. :) So am I wrong for making a statement against something I consider screwed up?

mookie123
11-12-2002, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure how appealing a monochrome Pocket PC will be. I have the orginal Pocket PC software on an old Compaq 1500 and it's not the best experience. The Pocket PC UI is clearly designed with the intent of color being used.

I think it can be made appealing as replacement of:
-electronic dictionary
-calculator (business, scientific)
-dedicated ebook reader
-electronic agenda/address book.
-Children toy/PDA.
-digital music device.
-cheap MAP/GPS displayer.

even combining any two of those device and market it as such would already appeal to a lot of cutomer. Just look at how many electronic dictionary and calculators there are in Office max.

Children PDA/ mp3 player alone can be a major market with SD card.

bottom line as long as this device can deliver what is says it can do. It will sell. The cheaper the better. By breaking $99 barrier, it can compete with a lot of dedicated gadgets.

Ed Hansberry
11-12-2002, 09:54 PM
Geesh Jason. There ARE people out there that aren't interested in the Pocket PC OS. Does this mean that they can't speak their mind? Cut people some slack who don't think the PPC OS has been touched by the hand of god.
PPC has problems like everything else. Absolutely we want to hear it. Heck, some of the best rants on PPC are on this site.

But to be fundamentally opposed to the PPC OS? Why bother coming here. GO look at mememe's posts since inception (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/search.php?search_author=mememe). Obviously hates the OS and has no desire for open discussion. Just slams.

metafizx
11-12-2002, 10:35 PM
So far everyone is talking about features and pricepoint, but the great thing about this "pocketpc" is that it actually fits in your "pocket"!!! We all know that PPC users lust after the form-factor of the Palm 5. This one is even smaller at 4.1 inches. They probably will release a color model 2 months later for $150.

Jason Dunn
11-12-2002, 11:50 PM
Geesh Jason. There ARE people out there that aren't interested in the Pocket PC OS.

Then why would they come here? :lol:

So am I wrong for making a statement against something I consider screwed up?

Nope. I complain too, quite often about the Pocket PC OS. But I'll always give reasons, as I assume you would too - to just say "I hate it" or "It sucks" (or whatever) without giving reasons is just simple trolling. As Ed said, look as his posting history - he's a Pocket PC-basher to the core and I really have no patience for people like that. If he has legitimate dislikes about the Pocket PC OS, he should state them to make his point.

ThomasC22
11-13-2002, 01:16 AM
Geesh Jason. There ARE people out there that aren't interested in the Pocket PC OS. Does this mean that they can't speak their mind? Cut people some slack who don't think the PPC OS has been touched by the

Jonathan, what is with you today? First you freak out because people are discussing the topic and now this.

Now, I'd be the first to agree with the fact that occasionally (nothing personal Jason) Jason will jump on people a little to quickly. But I don't see this as being one of those times, the post in question was basically saying "PocketPC sucks"

You should at least be productive when you critisize the product that the whole site is based on, the guy was just being a troll...

Rob Alexander
11-13-2002, 03:05 AM
Still one problemo'.. it uses the MS OS :-(

And you're complaining why? Look up at the URL for this site and stare at it until you grasp that this is a Pocket PC site. :roll: Thanks.

Geesh Jason. There ARE people out there that aren't interested in the Pocket PC OS. Does this mean that they can't speak their mind? Cut people some slack who don't think the PPC OS has been touched by the hand of god.

I'd have to side with Jason on this one. Lord knows, I've been on the wrong side of his ire from time to time, but this isn't someone expressing an opinion, it's just a meaningless snide comment that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. If this constitutes mememe 'speaking his mind', then.... well, it's kind of a short speech, don't you think?

max1milion
11-13-2002, 08:14 AM
Several points:

1. Who cares about mememe. Someone compared his actions to trolling. Let's assume that he IS a troll. Well, this kind of thing is exactly what trolls want. Just drop it and get back to the Samsung concept model.

2. Some people have brought up the apparent lack of a speaker on this model. I personally doubt they'd make the thing completely SILENT, so I'd imagine that there is probably a piezo-quartz (i.e. just beeps and/or buzzes) speaker under the skin. If it has that much ability just for reminders and has a stereo headphone jack for other audio (MP3, etc), it might well be very feasible and would appeal to a large part of the low end market. (Note that the Sharp Zaurus seems to be succeding relatively well with just such an audio structure, though granted it isn't a PPC.)

3. I really hope this thing does come out, because it WOULD be a direct attack on Palm and I'd certainly like to see a bigger MS market share (mostly because that would in turn generate a larger software base, which would expand the market share, and so ad infinitum). My only fear is this: When high end Palm devices (Clies) started coming out, I was skeptical (as I still am), as they were attacking some ground that has already been heavily fortified by the likes of Dell, Casio, HP, Compaq and Toshiba (and the list goes on, of course). Now 'we' (being PocketPC's in general) are trying to do the same thing to the low end side, which was obviously first taken and is still almost wholly held by Palm and Handspring. Perhaps the same brand of skepticism is warranted in this case, this time against the chances of a low end PPC succeeding in a largely Palm marketplace. Certainly there may be a decent level of brand loyalty to Palm, which even the more capable PocketPC platform might not be able to overcome so easily.

4. Many people have said that this device will attract more new users, and they are absolutely correct. With one condition: The price point on this would really have to come to our speculative $99, or at least a similarly low price. I'd be surprised to see a PPC for this little, but it might actually be practical for someone to sell this at only a very small profit if only to gain more support for the platform and brand. The truth is, however, that anything much higher than $150 WILL make people look at alternatives like the low end Clies, and Palm based devices do still hold the upper hand in the land of monochrome.

5. As I see it, one key factor in the success of this device will be how comprehensive its support of color PocketPC apps is. If you can indeed run the majority of the programs, the screen can be seen as more of a qualitative than a quantitative reduction in features. I.E. if the device can support color applications, the monochrome display would only reduce just how nice the programs look, but wouldn't really decrease your actual ability to run them. A full-fledged PPC with a low price point, even with a mono display, would absolutely be a perfect gateway for Palm users and hesitant would-be PDA users. I know this device would be perfect for converting some people I know to the PPC.

6. Do you think Samsung reads this? Though some of what's been said in this thread is not really important enough to influence development of the device, some of the posts really could form useful feedback. Maybe Jason knows if they do, or might be.

That's just what I think -- It's not necessarily correct or anything.

- Max

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
11-13-2002, 01:37 PM
Still one problemo'.. it uses the MS OS :-(
*cough*... note the original reference to "Pocket PC".
I'm not sure I get your point. Isn't Pocket PC a Microsoft Operating System (MS OS)?

I think ekkie was making a joke, saying it's not a Palm. Or perhaps "ekkie" is David Nagel? :lol:

Steve

No. I just thought the post by "mememe" was WAAAYYYY out of left field... I mean, complaining that a PocketPC "uses the MS OS" is just not very insightful (I'm being modest here).

Is "mememe" saying he prefers a Palm? Well, there are many low-cost Palms out there already, so what's the point of the post?

Is he saying he want's a low cost PocketPC that uses something other than MS OS? Well then he's looking for something that is NOT a PocketPC... again, what's the point of the post?

Steven Cedrone
11-13-2002, 02:30 PM
Who cares about mememe. Someone compared his actions to trolling. Let's assume that he IS a troll. Well, this kind of thing is exactly what trolls want. Just drop it and get back to the Samsung concept model.


Thank you! Please keep this discussion on topic...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

redlikemethodz
11-13-2002, 03:35 PM
I'm very curious to see the price of this device when it comes out. Last year, while I was still in college I bought an iPAQ 3135. The price dropped dramatically and ended up being only $150!!! Given the price of that PPC a year ago I would imagine this Samsung PPC will be under $150 and hopefully $99. Given, the iPAQ 3135 was slower with less memory, bigger size, etc...... Samsung still shouldn’t have a problem offering this new device at an incredibly low price. Personally, I'm ready for a color display and will hold out until Samsung graces us with its upcoming PPC/Phone. I hope Samsung utilizes their integrated technology in the hi-end model also.