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View Full Version : DataPlay ready to close up shop


Ed Hansberry
10-03-2002, 05:00 PM
<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960514.html">http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960514.html</a><br /><br />DataPlay, the darling of several computer shows last year, seems ready to call it quits. They have simply run out of cash. Two years ago a disk that held 500MB on a relatively cheap media the size of a quarter looked very appealing. Then some ugly truths came out. I talked about some of them <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=981">in this article back in April</a>.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20021003-dataplaydead.jpg" /><br /><br />"Major record labels have supported the format, and DataPlay expected to have discs featuring artists such as Britney Spears and N'Sync on the market by the end of this month." However, they have run out of money and can't seem to find the funding necessary to complete this phase of the business. Well, I am sorry to see any company close its doors because those employee's lives are affected, but I am glad potential investors haven't put more money into it. It could be the overall cloud over the technology sector, but my bet is investors see now that consumers simply will not put up with media that prevents them from making a copy of the product they purchased to listen to on different devices in the house or car.<br /><br />If they can come up with a Digital Rights Management technology to lock content to a <i>person</i> and not a device, I'll sign up for it immediately. Until then, good riddance to this device and any that follow in its footsteps.

PPCRules
10-03-2002, 05:28 PM
I have been eager for DataPlay to get here for years, and they were getting sooo close (for years), so I was disappointed when I heard about this. I was still holding out hope they might pull through.

As far as the digital right management aspect goes, I was welcoming that on this medium. I figured if "they" had a new format with all the security they wanted, it would be a way for them to get their mitts off of our Compact Discs and not mess them up. The problem with everything they have come up with for CDs is it has affected honest people more than the dishonest. A new medium that was cluttered from the start wouldn't have expectations of it being open and available for all uses.

Janak Parekh
10-03-2002, 05:29 PM
Do we know, though, that DRM is what killed it, or if it was just time-to-market? The darn thing took so long to come out -- 500MB is not nearly as impressive anymore since we have SD cards that are 512MB-sized (admittedly, not so cheap, but that'll change -- take a look at the prices of CF cards today!)

--bdj

Kemas
10-03-2002, 05:45 PM
If you all have been following what has been going on in Congress of late with DRM and other Digital issues you know that congress and the President are caving to Hollywood. It seems even MS has caved as their news update to Win XP has serious DRM built-in.

We are looking at Tivo being made illegal soon with how the bills are being prepared. We are looking at our ability to make a copy of a show, movie or music taken away; even for our own personal use.

Few people are speaking out against this issue. It seems like many when you read this board and others, but in truth most Americans don't get it. We are, for the most part, ahead of the curve. Many of us have probably read at least one E-book, carry at least a few songs on our Pocket PC and maybe even have put a movie or two on our Pocket PC.

The industry isn't saying we can't do that... but they are saying we will have to pay for the right each time. They don't trust us at all. In some ways I don't blame them.... people make copies and give them to friends all the time which is a violoation of the copyright act. But it seems a case where a few bad apples seems to be ruining the barrel.

Hollywood and from I have read cheif amung them Disney, are pushing to take away any rights we have to copy the programs distributed by Hollywood. The first acts will allow them to attack and damage any computer they believe has illegal music or movies and if they accidently hit a good American... too bad, so sad. Also, if they destroy your computer in the process, regardless of whether you are a good or bad american... you will have no recourse. They are being given permission to hack...... which by the way makes them terrorist under current US guidelines (I don't think that is law yet) which means that the US congress and President are supporting terrorisim against American Citizens and by that fact... the US Gov't should consider itself it's own worst enemy.

Of course, we have known this for some time....

I may have my details a bit out of whack... but the essense of what I am saying is this....

Your right to have "back-Up" copies or to have the ability to have a song you love in multiple locations is going to be made if not illegal, impossible...without hacking and that will be illegal. Of course there is precedent for this in the computer industry... YOu may legally only have Office on one computer unless you have more than one license. The traditional book license is now nearly dead and buried.

If you own a Used CD shop or something like it... I susspect you are next on the Hollywood and RIAA hit list. You cost them money and it is finally, all about the money.

And who says greed won't get you anywhere......

Wes Salmon
10-03-2002, 06:35 PM
Considering the speed at which flash memory is maturing, it was only a matter of time until this technology died.

As cool as it was a few years back at Comdex, it really couldn't compete with flash in regards to access speeds, power, form factor and media reliability.

mookie123
10-03-2002, 07:06 PM
Panasonic already shows 1Gig SD card. Tho they say they won't start making it until there is demand and manufacturing price falls around next year.

http://www.idg.com.sg/idgwww.nsf/unidlookup/26AC09F9ECBD66A348256C4700062384?OpenDocument

Matsu****a's current SD memory card road map calls for a 2G-byte card to follow the planned 1G-byte version sometime in 2004 and then cards in 4G-byte, 8G-byte and 16G-byte capacities to follow from 2005.


Phillips also shows some prototype of SFFO, 1Gig optical the size of CFII.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/pc/docs/2002/1003/philips00.jpg

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/pc/docs/2002/1003/yamada.htm

So, all in all, DataPlay has been obsolete before they get their act straight. Nobody wants to spend $10 for a one time use disc when you can get smaller $70-80 CF or SD that can be used repeatedly. It just add too much cost for OEM to add the optical drive when a simple chipset for SD will do similar task at a fraction of the cost.

PPCRules
10-03-2002, 07:23 PM
Do we know, though, that DRM is what killed it, or if it was just time-to-market?
On the contrary, I was thinking that the DRM would save the format, because it got the big bucks of the recording industry behind it. I had figured that was what would finally make it happen.

And, I'd take a $10 write-once 500MB for song/movie storage any day over $75+ for half that on a rewritable I'd have to keep reloading all the time. True, that it is a mechanical device is a distinct disadvantage, but the cost vs. capacity advantage is still tipped way toward DataPlay.

Brad Adrian
10-03-2002, 07:30 PM
Few people are speaking out against this issue...
And the reason is that all the news stories and hubub surrounding it always paints the issue in the light of piracy. People hear "In an attempt to cut down on software piracy, which costs American businesses 18 gajillion dollars a year..." and they tune it out. "I don't steal software. I don't steal music. This doesn't pertain to me."

Now, if they heard "In an attempt to keep Americans from recording absolutely anything on their own VCRs and from using a music CD on more than one player..." I think they'd pay more attention.

Kemas
10-03-2002, 07:53 PM
Now, if they heard "In an attempt to keep Americans from recording absolutely anything on their own VCRs and from using a music CD on more than one player..." I think they'd pay more attention.

I wish I believed this... but I work in IT and many of the people I work with still believe that congress would never pass a law that would basically make the current "fair use law" disappear. They believe that the "fair Use" portion of the copyright laws would first have to be removed before we could lose our rights to simply record a digital broadcast or have the latest Madonna hit on our desktop, notebook and car MP3 player at the same time.

If I have misunderstood what I have been reading hte past three weeks, please tell me.

The way this issue is being tackled though is quite simply going around this problem. Will people complain eventually, sure. But they have complained that CD prices are too high for some time now and they aren't going down in price and we all know that you seldom get a CD with more than 45 or 50 minutes of music and most of the tracks are either extream bubble gum or just plain horrible. The RIAA response will be to say we can buy single tracks on-line but with restrictions. Break the restrictions and you could go to jail. The music industry is still a multi-billion dollar ball game... sales might be down but no one is really hurting... This isn't about artist either... they are paid well... but the music companies make most of the money.

The Movie Industry will play the same game as will the TV industry only they are going after those that push the product out to us with a compelling argument... you need us, more than we need you. If HBO couldn't get hit movies anymore and DirecTV subscribers dipped becuase HBO and others ceased to exist and Pay Per View didn't exist.... what do you think they will do. Because in the begining they will say.. this only afects some of our customers.

There is a two arm approach to the digital media. Either producers of products love it, Hollywood or hate it, book publishers. Those that love it fear it will be copied and those that hate it fear it will be copied. Those that love it are looking for any means to control severly and those that hate are pricing it out of existance. Ever tried to buy an E-Book of a main stream author... same price as the hard back and no discounts.

I just have no belief the American People will see the problem for what it is and when they do, I don't think they will do anything about it. They wono't know how and they simply will believe that "one person can not make a difference."

mookie123
10-03-2002, 08:53 PM
And, I'd take a $10 write-once 500MB for song/movie storage any day over $75+ for half that on a rewritable I'd have to keep reloading all the time. True, that it is a mechanical device is a distinct disadvantage, but the cost vs. capacity advantage is still tipped way toward DataPlay.

not by much.
The dataplay music player is about $300, and they have yet to announce a computer reader model. It will be around the same range i suppose. So right there your price advantage has vaporized.

Right now a 128SD goes for abou $70, and 256 goes for about $170, by christmas I wouldn't be surprise if 128 SD goes for $50-60, and 256 for $150.

at the cost of 2 players dataplay readers $500 and 10 disk $100, you can get a 256 + 512mb around this christmas. (and the data play has yet to show up)

the cost of dataplay just keeps adding for each portable devices reader, while the SD price keep going down. the deal breaker is the reader, It's bulky and expensive to make it a common device. And in the long run it is limited to 500mb, plan for 1Gig and rewritable doesn't seem to go anywhere. It jsut cannot out run the SD price performance rate.

so ultimately the hassle cost is high compare to SD.

GregWard
10-03-2002, 11:39 PM
Also, if they destroy your computer in the process, regardless of whether you are a good or bad american... you will have no recourse.

I can't remember the details but I remember reading a case (poss UK based not US) about a Programmer who added an "auto-destruct" routine into the code he wrote. He had had previous problems with clients who hadn't paid up on delivery. So he wrote a self anhilate routine into the programme with a "stop" key that he intended to provide on receipt of payment. He wasn't paid - so the programme destroyed itself. Note - as I read the story - it did no harm to the computer other than render useless the code he hadn't been paid for.

Black and white case you might say? Well he was done for "unauthorised interference with the computer" (or some such definition).

So - if this was true - why couldn't we sue Disney - or who ever - on the same grounds?

On a seperate - but similar - note. How does this "search and destroy" software differ from a Trojan? Sounds pretty similar doesn't it? So shouldn't our Firewall/AV software stop it dead? Well maybe not if it gets official sanction. Maybe the AV companies have to leave a "back door"? Ouch - how long before that gets exploited? At least then we can all sue the pants off Norton (or who ever) for failing to protect our systems!!!!

Pony99CA
10-04-2002, 11:15 AM
If you all have been following what has been going on in Congress of late with DRM and other Digital issues you know that congress and the President are caving to Hollywood.

The sky isn't falling yet, Chicken Little. :-) Only some Congressmen are (like Howard Berman, who represents a district near Hollywood). For some that aren't, check out "Congress asked to unpick copy lock laws" (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-960731.html?tag=fd_top) at news.com. There is legislation to remove some of the more onerous parts of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and to provide for labelling copy-protected CDs.


Few people are speaking out against this issue. It seems like many when you read this board and others, but in truth most Americans don't get it. We are, for the most part, ahead of the curve. Many of us have probably read at least one E-book, carry at least a few songs on our Pocket PC and maybe even have put a movie or two on our Pocket PC.

Define "few" please. For the most part, few people speak out about any issue -- that's why we have the phrase "silent majority".

However, people are speaking out about this. Have you seen the Electronic Frontier Foundation stance (http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/20021003_eff_pr.html) on this or Digital Consumer (http://www.digitalconsumer.org)?


Hollywood and from I have read cheif amung them Disney, are pushing to take away any rights we have to copy the programs distributed by Hollywood. The first acts will allow them to attack and damage any computer they believe has illegal music or movies and if they accidently hit a good American... too bad, so sad. Also, if they destroy your computer in the process, regardless of whether you are a good or bad american... you will have no recourse.

I think this "legal hacking" is reprehensible, too, but you have too many details wrong. A company cannot destroy your computer -- the currently proposed law has a $50 limit on damage they can cause. Of course, I don't believe that anyone should be able to cause me any damage, but if hacking ruins my computer, there will be recourse.


Your right to have "back-Up" copies or to have the ability to have a song you love in multiple locations is going to be made if not illegal, impossible...without hacking and that will be illegal.

I don't believe there is any "right" to backup copies. The courts have upheld that people can make a backup copy, but not that a company has to provide a facility to allow that. If you truly had a right to a backup copy, companies would have to provide a backup facility.

Steve

Pony99CA
10-04-2002, 11:27 AM
And, I'd take a $10 write-once 500MB for song/movie storage any day over $75+ for half that on a rewritable I'd have to keep reloading all the time. True, that it is a mechanical device is a distinct disadvantage, but the cost vs. capacity advantage is still tipped way toward DataPlay.
not by much.
The dataplay music player is about $300, and they have yet to announce a computer reader model. It will be around the same range i suppose. So right there your price advantage has vaporized.

Right now a 128SD goes for abou $70, and 256 goes for about $170, by christmas I wouldn't be surprise if 128 SD goes for $50-60, and 256 for $150.

at the cost of 2 players dataplay readers $500 and 10 disk $100, you can get a 256 + 512mb around this christmas. (and the data play has yet to show up)
Yeah, that's a fair comparison -- NOT.

First, you didn't include any cost for a music player using SD cards (say $100-$200), nor did you include include any cost for a computer SD reader (say $30-$50).

If you're only using the media on a Pocket PC, most of which now have SD support, there is no reader cost, but you still have to include a music player.

Second, 10 DataPlay disks will hold about 5 GB of data, not a measly 768 MB. How much would 10 512 MB CF cards (the cheapest flash media, I think) cost? Amazon had a great deal on them for $150, so 10 of those would cost $1500!

Steve

Pony99CA
10-04-2002, 11:36 AM
I can't remember the details but I remember reading a case (poss UK based not US) about a Programmer who added an "auto-destruct" routine into the code he wrote. He had had previous problems with clients who hadn't paid up on delivery. So he wrote a self anhilate routine into the programme with a "stop" key that he intended to provide on receipt of payment. He wasn't paid - so the programme destroyed itself. Note - as I read the story - it did no harm to the computer other than render useless the code he hadn't been paid for.

Black and white case you might say? Well he was done for "unauthorised interference with the computer" (or some such definition).

I remember a case similar to this in the U.S. (I think). A company produced software which included code to make the software unusable if it received a certain command. One company didn't pay for the software, so the creator sent the command, rendering the software unusable. The other company sued the creator, and, if I recall, won.

Why? Because the software was a mission-critical application, and stopping it brought the non-paying company to its knees. That violated a basic premise in contract law called "mitigation of damages".

NOTE: I'm not a lawyer, and this took place years ago, so I may have some of the details wrong.


So - if this was true - why couldn't we sue Disney - or who ever - on the same grounds?

The difference is that deleting your infringing MP3s won't make your computer inoperable. If they do mess up your computer, they are responsible for any damages over $50.

Steve

mookie123
10-04-2002, 03:35 PM
First, you didn't include any cost for a music player using SD cards (say $100-$200), nor did you include include any cost for a computer SD reader (say $30-$50).

If you're only using the media on a Pocket PC, most of which now have SD support, there is no reader cost, but you still have to include a music player.

Second, 10 DataPlay disks will hold about 5 GB of data, not a measly 768 MB. How much would 10 512 MB CF cards (the cheapest flash media, I think) cost? Amazon had a great deal on them for $150, so 10 of those would cost $1500!
Steve

I am bringing up the music player as a price estimation to data reader. the data reader will not be cheap, costing upward $2-300. And it's huge, so it won't come automatically with PDA, printer, or computer. Hence you have to buy them separately and most probably will own 2 of them. (~$500)

than the disc itself is only write once. make a mistake or change your mind, than splurge another $10.

those cost add up. and the dataplay doesn't seems to evolve as fast as SD card.

SD card price pattern seems to start following CF, coming down about 15 % each month. If a 512mb SD card reach $300, changing format to data play doesn't make sense anymore. Seeing the type of data I walk around with, I rather have 4-5 256mbSD card or one 512 plus two or three 128mb SD at the same price of getting dataplay reader and a couple of write once disc. SD slot/card are infinitely more usefull than dataplay. The PDA can use it as virtual memory (write/read) and the slot can function as I/O,. Plus the argument that dataplay can carry 500mb only hold until mid next year.

bottom line, dataplay is not evolving fast enough to compete with solid state. and We already see sign that it will become obsolete within half year from now, due to cost and size. Dataplay has miss the window to become media standard. They suppose to start pumping it when 64mb SD card cost $200. but now 512mb SD card is $499 and falling down fast....(rebate $100 is not uncomon.......3 months from now it wil be$299 )

PPCRules
10-04-2002, 04:09 PM
Half of the people in this discussion are talking about DRM and the other half about DataPlay. Those interested in DataPlay might find this interesting:

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,105602,00.asp
(may need to cut/paste complete link, or just search for 'Philips')

Another entry with a DataPlay type medium, but from the co-creater of the Compact Disc format and (I think) lone creater of the Cassette Tape standard (although that doesn't ensure success, by any means). I think the timing is interesting, one buckles just as the other does first public showing. There must be some market research evidence that this is something people want.

Pony99CA
10-04-2002, 11:07 PM
First, you didn't include any cost for a music player using SD cards (say $100-$200), nor did you include include any cost for a computer SD reader (say $30-$50).

If you're only using the media on a Pocket PC, most of which now have SD support, there is no reader cost, but you still have to include a music player.

Second, 10 DataPlay disks will hold about 5 GB of data, not a measly 768 MB. How much would 10 512 MB CF cards (the cheapest flash media, I think) cost? Amazon had a great deal on them for $150, so 10 of those would cost $1500!
Steve
I am bringing up the music player as a price estimation to data reader. the data reader will not be cheap, costing upward $2-300. And it's huge, so it won't come automatically with PDA, printer, or computer. Hence you have to buy them separately and most probably will own 2 of them. (~$500)

I thought buying both a DataPlay music player and computer drive made sense. However, I doubt most people would spend $250 for a second computer reader when they can just move the first reader to another computer. Why do you think "most" people will want two?


than the disc itself is only write once. make a mistake or change your mind, than splurge another $10.

Yeah, write-once hurt the CD-R market a lot, didn't it? :-) And how much did CD-Rs cost when they first came out?


those cost add up. and the dataplay doesn't seems to evolve as fast as SD card.

Optical storage doesn't evolve as quickly. How long did it take for DVDs to come out after CDs were introduced? 15 years? Yet both media formats are incredibly popular.


bottom line, dataplay is not evolving fast enough to compete with solid state. and We already see sign that it will become obsolete within half year from now, due to cost and size. Dataplay has miss the window to become media standard. They suppose to start pumping it when 64mb SD card cost $200. but now 512mb SD card is $499 and falling down fast....(rebate $100 is not uncomon.......3 months from now it wil be$299 )

How much did CD-Rs cost when they first came out, and how much do they cost now? True, capacity didn't evolve, but prices still fell.

I'm not saying DataPlay will succeed, mind you. I'm afraid their time has passed, too. I'm just saying that your cost arguments aren't really a valid reason why they'll fail, and providing parallels to show they could succeed. DataPlay appears to be more like LaserDisc than DVD, though.

Steve