App developers - Get together on using 'My Documents'

[Ed Hansberry]

I am seeing a trend in apps that has an upside and a downside. The trend is some developers are storing application settings in \My documents\. This is great news for me for one simple reason. I can simply do a hard reset or get a new device and when I copy the docs back over from the desktop, those apps are configured exactly as I like them. I don't have to go looking for my icon files or customized templates. In the case of Pocket Informant, I no longer have to spend 30 minutes setting everything just so. Install PI, sync, and everything is exactly the way I like it.<br /><br />The downside is they seem to be putting these settings in custom non-configurable folders. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif" /> So now I have <b><i>TEN</i></b> app specific folders that I am reminded of and must sort through when I am opening and browsing files! The other 4 are for me. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20021003-mydocuments.jpg" /><br /><br />Perhaps MS should step in with some standard folder that all apps use or add a configurations folder that ActiveSync keeps on the PC but normally hidden from the user. At the very least, allow the user to configure the folder name and allow more than one subfolder in your structure. I would love to have only one folder visible called zSettings that was always at the bottom of the list and then all of these folders from various apps would be below that. What do you think? I definitely want the trend of moving these settings and files to My Documents to continue, but not exactly the way it is being done today. How many folders do you have that one or more of your apps placed there?

[Will T Smith]

The solution is two-fold.

1) Microsoft needs to develop robust support for managing user settings. This includes OS and App level, user configurable settings. Capabilities are Transfer, Backup, Restore, Import, Export, etc....

2) App developers must place their settings underneath a standardized registery directory.

[dcharles18]

This drives me crazy. Especially when using Notes and trying to select what folder I want notes from. I have to keeping tapping 'more folders' at the bottom. I have seven folders for 'Notes' and twelve for 'Programs'

[CUShane]

I'll preface this comment with the fact that I am a developer myself. I actually find it more annoying when developers do this. Why do I need to see all of the application settings in My Documents? That's what the Windows registry is designed for... A simple backup is all that's required to get all of your settings back. I don't understand the need for reinstalling all of your applications every other month or however often you do it. The only time I've done that since I got my iPAQ was when I upgraded to PPC2K2 since the backup wasn't compatible.

P.S. - Shameless plug for my stuff (all of it free): http://www.s-church.net/projects.htm

[Ed Hansberry]

That's what the Windows registry is designed for... A simple backup is all that's required to get all of your settings back. I don't understand the need for reinstalling all of your applications every other month or however often you do it.
It isn't that simple.

• Some of these are icon files - doesn't go in the registry
• Some are ebook place holders (annotations) - doesn't go in the registry
• Restore only does full device, so if you had to hard reset due to a corruption issue, a restore puts the corruption back on.
• Restores only works on the same device at the same ROM level. New device or a 1.1ROM backup won't work on a 1.2ROM device.

MS has figured out that the registry isn't all it was cracked up to be, hence the move files and settings wizard in Windows XP. Until such a wizard exists for Pocket PCs, this is the next best thing. It just shouldn't take so many different folders to do it. :roll:

[alex_kac]

We got rid of all registry access two versions ago because we store a lot of settings there that people want to move from one machine to the next.

And actually there are MANY plusses to using config files over the registry....frankly, the registry needs a completely overhaul and rewrite. And on the PPC - without having regedit or any built in utils, its even worse.

[BevHoward]

I strongly feel that the My doc.... should be used as little as possible since MS imposed this restriction.

However, most of these programs can "see" only one level deep, so one solution would be to put the config files two or more levels deep which would put them out of sight in the mess of Word/Excel folders and they would be synced.

I've done this with a \MY DOCUMENTS\BAK folder with subfolders that contain things that I want to assure that get copied if I fail to backup

[sullivanpt]

My 1 cent:

I love your idea Ed, especially since putting the settings under My Documents makes it painfully easy for the user to understand what needs to be backed up.

It'd be easy for developers to agree on a subdirectory. The biggest single obstacle to implementing this is that MS has crippled the PPC's file explorer to only allow 1 level of folders below "my documents". :cry:

CUShane simile: http://www.patricktrentsullivan.com/products.htm

[BevHoward]

That's a common misunderstanding

The 1 level deep limit occurs only in the default app "file picker" interface.

The PPC's file explorer can see any additional levels below this, and, as indicated in the previous post, these additional folder levels in the main memory are _do_ sync with a file sync.

[sullivanpt]

Sorry Bev, you are correct. I didn't mean to trivialize the issue and say it isn't possible to have folders deeper than 1 level.

My point was, the 'average' user and program CAN'T access folders deeper than one level (without downloading special apps of the internet or copying files up and then back down; neither of which joe corridor warrior is going to want to figure out).

I'm of the opinion that the beauty of Ed's suggestion is that the 'Average' user CAN understand what needs to be backed up, IF it's stored ina standard location they are already comfortable with accessing.

Anyway, I'm up to 2 cents now so I'll shut up for the duration. 8O

[Ed Hansberry]

That's a common misunderstanding

The 1 level deep limit occurs only in the default app "file picker" interface.

The PPC's file explorer can see any additional levels below this, and, as indicated in the previous post, these additional folder levels in the main memory are _do_ sync with a file sync.

Yup. My NEVO folder is 2 levels deep and all of that works fine with the Nevo app and ActiveSync.

[BevHoward]

wasn't trying to be crititcal, just to prevent any misunderstanding

with respect to low tech users, using sub/sub folders meets the need of the automatic backup and does so without the LL user ever seeing the config files.

[Pony99CA]

I am seeing a trend in apps that has an upside and a downside. The trend is some developers are storing application settings in \My documents\. This is great news for me for one simple reason. I can simply do a hard reset or get a new device and when I copy the docs back over from the desktop, those apps are configured exactly as I like them. I don't have to go looking for my icon files or customized templates. In the case of Pocket Informant, I no longer have to spend 30 minutes setting everything just so. Install PI, sync, and everything is exactly the way I like it.

I agree that there should be an easy way to synchronize settings, but My Documents is not the place for that. My Documents is for user documents, not settings.

The correct way to do this would be like Windows (at least Windows 98 SE) does it -- in a \WINDOWS\Application Data folder (which has sub-folders, of course).

In fact, if you check out that directory in Windows, you'll find the following:

C:\WINDOWS\Application Data\Microsoft\ActiveSync\Profiles\SHM_iPAQ_3870\Synchronized Files Backup

That's where ActiveSync keeps things in My Documents. It seems like it would be easy to automatically backup a Pocket PC's \Windows\Application Data directory there, too.


The downside is they seem to be putting these settings in custom non-configurable folders. http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif So now I have TEN app specific folders that I am reminded of and must sort through when I am opening and browsing files! The other 4 are for me.

Making a settings directory configurable isn't that easy. There are really two main ways to do it:

1. Use a Registry setting to point to the directory where settings are stored. This requires the user to specify that directory at install or in the program, which is ugly.

2. Have the applicaton search for the directory. If you want true configuration, including the ability to name the directory something else, that becomes even more difficult, as you have to search for specific files in the directory. This method is slower than the first, possibly much slower.

Using a \Windows\Applicaton Data directory that every application stored settings in would solve most issues, and would also prevent the base \Windows directory from getting filled up with all sorts of garbage (which could cause problems if, for example, two applications wanted to store icons with the same name there).

Steve

[Pony99CA]

We got rid of all registry access two versions ago because we store a lot of settings there that people want to move from one machine to the next.

And actually there are MANY plusses to using config files over the registry....frankly, the registry needs a completely overhaul and rewrite. And on the PPC - without having regedit or any built in utils, its even worse.
I agree. I actually preferred applications that used INI files. The problem was that they would either get stored in the Windows directory, which made them more difficult to find, or in the application's program directory, which made them difficult to backup.

In later versions of Windows, Microsoft started using the \Windows\Application Data directory, which would solve both problems if everybody used it.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the Pocket PC should adopt this convention.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Another rant I have is applications that don't use the Program Files directory. Fortunately, most applications use that if you install to main memory.

However, if you install applications in the user ROM or on a memory card, they typically create a directory for the program in the root. :-( They should check if a Program Files directory exists, and, if not, create one, then install their application in a program-specific directory under Program Files. As I've never written a Pocket PC program, though, I don't know if installers support this.

Steve

[CUShane]

Another rant I have is applications that don't use the Program Files directory. Fortunately, most applications use that if you install to main memory.

However, if you install applications in the user ROM or on a memory card, they typically create a directory for the program in the root. :-( They should check if a Program Files directory exists, and, if not, create one, then install their application in a program-specific directory under Program Files. As I've never written a Pocket PC program, though, I don't know if installers support this.


The default installers that come with the eMbedded Visual Tools don't support this. They're pretty weak in my opinion, but there's not a good 3rd party tool for this either. It is pretty well standardized that the installs onto the device RAM go into the \Program Files\ folder and the installs onto a storage card go into the root.

[mmidgley]

I can see arguments for and against using the registry for settings. I'll leave that to another thought. Assuming the developer has already made the decision to place settings in a file (or files), they should be placed where they are easily sync'd and fairly obvious to the user to need to be backed up (that mostly just means not in the Program Files dir).

Microsoft should have provided a solution here, or at least direction for the developer (I'm sure they assumed the registry was sufficient).

Since they didn't (and I'm only assuming that from our observations on what developers have done), we'll probably just have to deal with hunting down those 4 folders among the 12 "program" folders. Since the user has complete control over his own directory names, and possibly no control over the directory names created by programs, the user should name his folders so they are always sorted first (a similar solution to the 'zSettings' folder forcing it to the bottom of the list).

I played around a bit with file attributes. I was using PE file explorer to set the Hidden bit. The built-in file explorer normally doesn't show hidden objects, but it has the tap-and-hold menu option to view all files. (PE can be configured to show files with any bits set). I thought using Hidden directories would be a great solution, but couldn't get PE to set a directory to Hidden. Is it possible?

m.

[Adam]

Using a \Windows\Applicaton Data directory that every application stored settings in would solve most issues, and would also prevent the base \Windows directory from getting filled up with all sorts of garbage (which could cause problems if, for example, two applications wanted to store icons with the same name there).

Have to agree with this one. Activestink could then have a setting to allow you to request that it get copied with every sync to a folder on the desktop. Also, those devices with equivalents to the iPAq filestore could give the option to place the folder into there.

It'd mean updates to all a fair number of things, but I think it could be done reasonably easily (PPC patch, activestink upgrade) and then app. developers will just need to switch. I'm sure that users will start gravitating away from those that don't without a good reason.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Another rant I have is applications that don't use the Program Files directory. Fortunately, most applications use that if you install to main memory.

However, if you install applications in the user ROM or on a memory card, they typically create a directory for the program in the root. :-( They should check if a Program Files directory exists, and, if not, create one, then install their application in a program-specific directory under Program Files. As I've never written a Pocket PC program, though, I don't know if installers support this.

Steve
There it is!! I knew I had another frustration aside from how cluttered the "My Documents" directory becomes because of various applications.

I'm a neat freak when it comes to file and folder organization (as I assume most are) and I think MS did a really poor job in thinking out BOTH the "My Documents" concept for the PPC and the handling of file processing on removable storage cards.

Those extra several seconds I have to spend searching for specific files everytime gets a bit annoying after a while.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

From a slightly different angle, I also wish more applications would support the ability to search for files outside of the "My Documents" structure. I know this somewhat defeats the purpose of having your application data automatically backed up, but I really appreciate programs like PocketTV / PocketMVP / Resco Picture Viewer that allow you to navigate to any folder.... and I certainly take advantage... for all music / video / images files I have, I store them elsewhere than My Documents just to minimize the "noise".