T-Mobile to offer WiFi access at Starbucks [Archive]

Ed Hansberry

08-26-2002, 04:30 PM

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1033-954813.html">http://news.com.com/2100-1033-954813.html</a> There are a few technical goodies in this article about how T-Mobile is working around problems with WiFi 802.11b networks and cell phones, which operate near the same frequency, but they also got into the pricing plans that Starbucks will charge customers for WiFi access as they sip their latte. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020826-starbuckstmobile1.gif" /> <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020826-starbuckstmobile2.gif" /> "T-Mobile is charging $30 a month for unlimited access, with walk-in Starbucks customers paying $2.99 for the first 15 minutes and 25 cents a minute thereafter. " OUCH! $30/mo? Or a rate by the minute? So much for casually reading the news online. Personally, I think in this case a charge by the MB would be more reasonable. Vote in the poll. How many of you would pay either the monthly charge or the $3-5 you would burn in a single visit?

Julio

08-26-2002, 04:47 PM

Hello,

this seems to be most useful during business trips - when a good hi-speed connection is usually hard to get and the connection charge can be expensed. Oftentimes I find myself needing to download some large email or file from the servers to get a job done.

T-Mobile also has prepaid plans for 120 ($20) and 300 ($40 I think) minutes. These would seem to be more reasonable from a price per minute point of view for the casual net surfer. These prepaid plans don't allow you to surf over the time limit - which can be good from your wallet's point of view.

Julio

Wes Salmon

08-26-2002, 04:47 PM

$30 a month is indeed an "ouch" for anyone who's already paying for net access either for an ISP/cable modem or wireless (or both). I just can't see the value for most who would even have wireless since they most likely already have a hefty internet services bill.

I did notice that Starbucks is offering a 24 hour free pass so you can try it out before you fork over the cash, that's a nice touch.

I guess if I lived next door or right above a starbucks, it may be worth it to buy the $30 a month package and cancel my ISP.

PJE

08-26-2002, 04:49 PM

MatthewF

08-26-2002, 04:55 PM

I live in a small town in Ohio and I'm amazed someone somewhere thinks this business model will work. Between my office, the local coffee shop, the library, the local community college, an assortment of other business (knowingly or not), my home and a few friendly WiFi neighbors, there are way too many spots with free access to pay this much. I image those of you in larger areas have even less trouble finding free access. A small charge to guarentee the connection might be reasonable, but, WOW, $30/month?

My 2cents
MatthewF

Ed Hansberry

08-26-2002, 04:55 PM

$30 a month is indeed an "ouch" for anyone who's already paying for net access either for an ISP/cable modem or wireless (or both). I just can't see the value for most who would even have wireless since they most likely already have a hefty internet services bill.
No kidding. $50 for broadband, $40+ for a decent cell phone plan, $20 for GPRS data on the cell phone, $40 for cable, $25 for Netflix. At some point all these "only $30 per month" type deals have to stop at my house.

Leon

08-26-2002, 04:56 PM

I've spent a several times that amount during my vacation in the US on USD 12,-/hour Internet sessions at Kinko's, so I would have been happy to shell out USD 30,- for unlimited access. I would only subscribe for one month though. :wink:

mginsberg

08-26-2002, 04:57 PM

This does seem a bit pricey. Does anyone know if what the typical connection that each Starbucks will have? I wonder it is a T1 or cable or DSL? There have been times, I needed to upload a large file, and it may be worth it to do to Starbucks to do it. Although, for the pricing, I doubt I will use it unless I am out of town and there is an emergency.

Michael

crispeto

08-26-2002, 05:14 PM

What a rip off. $5 per hour tops. I'm supposed to buy their expensive coffee and then pay them to check my email or browse for a few minutes? Maybe they deserve something but $30 per hr is crazy.

mstie423

08-26-2002, 05:23 PM

igreen

08-26-2002, 05:26 PM

I decided what the heck and coughed up $20 for 120 minutes to see how it was. It was very fast...of course there was probably only me and ...well me on the network. The one thing I noticed...and they hide it in that small print.....is the $20 for 120 minutes plan is really the "$20 for 120 minutes with a 10 minute minimum connect charge with all unused minutes expiring in 90 days" plan. THats right....everytime you connect...you get hit for 10 minutes minimum and 90 days after your first connect...all unused minutes go away.

Leon

08-26-2002, 05:31 PM

What a rip off. [...] Maybe they deserve something but $30 per hr is crazy.
It's USD 30,- per month :)

Ben

08-26-2002, 05:34 PM

There are a couple of UK branches of Starbucks that are currently offering the T-mobile service for free while they trial it - make the most of it people!

Will T Smith

08-26-2002, 05:39 PM

Idea 1:

Charge by bandwidth throttling. You subscribe to your desired level of Access.

56k $5/month
114k $15/month
256k $20/month
512k $30/month

....

This allows the bandwidth hogs to pay their dues and let light browsers off easy.

Idea 2:
Sell Pre-Paid authentication cards at the Starbucks counter. Basically you would rig up a VPN setup whereby the VPN would only allow registered registered cards. You would buy a set bandwidth (say 20MB) or a 1 month card @114k. (OR multiple months cards as you desire)

I doubt that a subscription model will do well for something that is so "walk-up" in nature. Only a few true caffiene heads will pork out such fees since they are the only ones their (beyond employees) for extended periods of time.

Ultimately, I believe that the fixed bandwidth charges are doomed to failure due to the complexity of billing (BTW, I used to work in Telecom billing (for Sprint accounts no less), I know the massive amounts of Data and people time thats involved). In the end I think that bandwidth throttling and preferred service* models will prevail as all one must due is configure the servers and it is sell monitoring.

* Subscribers to preferred service would have higher priority set on their data packets which would reduce latency. Lower priority (lower price) users would experience small delays in GPRS traffic during peak usage areas and times.

David McNamee

08-26-2002, 05:45 PM

It is seriously not worth the money. The only time I've been in a Starbucks was during a trip to Seattle where it's illegal to NOT stop in a Starbucks. :)

I suppose if you don't have cable/dsl at home, you're on the road a lot, frequent participating Starbucks, don't have a mobile data plan, and aren't staying at a hotel/friend's house that is broadband and WiFi equipped, then it MIGHT be worth a per minute or per KB charge. USD 30/month is a bit much for something that I can see only being used casually.

yellow1

08-26-2002, 06:10 PM

Well I tried their free trial yesterday and here are my thoughts:
1) Speed is good, 500kbps+ and maxes the current PDAs running 802.11b.
2) You get a $1,500 credit for 24hours
3) I used it on and off for 1 hour and it would normally have cost me $121 !!!!!!!
4) It keeps logging you off, maybe after every 5 minutes of inactivity, probably to prevent connection "borrowing" but it's still a pain. It's pretty basic protection
5) They must have some unspecified hourly quota because at one point it would't let me login again !

brntcrsp

08-26-2002, 06:13 PM

Portland OR is one of the many cities that has had this place for a few weeks now. I haven't paid for the service yet, and I probably never will. The reason? There is a grassroots team called PersonalTelco (http://www.personaltelco.net) that operates a free WiFi network in the exact same areas as T-Mobile/Starbucks. This recently caused some clashing over turf (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/front_page/102975810817580.xml).

In fact two blocks from my front door there is a PersonalTelco node sitting right on top of a T-Mobile node. Why pay when it's free?!

Dr. Smooth

08-26-2002, 06:44 PM

How could they keep track of who has an account, with a wireless connection? Would you have to log-on to the wirless connection, with a l/p or something... but then couldn't you just go on the Internet from there? Ahh I don't know anything about it

I think that the way this works is that you connect to the wireless network, and the router redirects your packets until you provide some sort of credentials. So if you try to use the Web, you end up viewing a login page, no matter what URL you entered. I guess with POP3 or IMAP, you'd get connection failures.

There's an interesting article by Lincoln Stein in this month's New Architect magazine that describes his experience with a public WiFi network in an airport. Apparently, he was able to snoop the TCP/IP traffic and assume another user's IP address (which had been obtained from a DHCP server after payment was received). Once he had the IP address, he was live on the 'net. I guess that with that system, once the IP address was assigned via DHCP, there was no more security. I suppose that a more secure system would use MAC addresses to authenticate every packet (although those could be spoofed as well). I think the only secure means of providing public services would be to use WEP, but then you have to come up with an easy way for users to switch WEP credentials. With the current implementations of 802.11b device drivers, switching creds is painful to say the least.

possmann

08-26-2002, 06:49 PM

Personally I don't head into Starbuck for expensive coffee drinks much anymore -but if I were a "regular" then I would say by the month is worth it - but the by the minute rate is a bit pricey. I agree that they should decerase the cost of the service as their coffee is already too much, but hey - I'm not that much of a coffee freak. I su;ppose if I were in a wine bar or cigar bar someone would say the same to me - still I can't see paying thta much for WiFi access while smoking a fine cigar or sipping a great wine...

yellow1

08-26-2002, 06:51 PM

Yes that article http://www.newarchitectmag.com/documents/s=2445/na0902h/index.html made things looking pretty easy...just like WEP cracking which is absolutely untrue !
If you read my post just above you'll notice that they keep logging you off every 5 minutes or so, which is actually pretty annoying, so sniffing an IP won't get you very far. The "credentials" webpage is secured so I doubt you could sniff the user/pass, but who knows...

Brad Adrian

08-26-2002, 07:32 PM

What a rip off...

Let's think about what Starbucks is really trying to accomplish, here. They want to entice highly mobile people to visit their shops so maybe they'll order that SECOND latte while they linger a while. They want people to make a LOT of relatively short visits, not stay for protracted ones. I believe that's what's behind the $0.25 per additional minute plan.

Kre

08-26-2002, 07:38 PM

This should be a FREE service to get me into their stores...

The maximum they should charge is 2x their cost of their 24/7 internet link / number of people using their service...

It's almost as bad as the situation where a commercial company has set up pay to use WiFi in a location where free to use WiFi is already available..... causing reduced throughput on BOTH systems.

My 2c

PJE

Unless you're going to be spending a lot of time at Starbucks every week, $30/mo. even for unlimited access seems a bit steep. However, in business, atmosphere can make or break you. And with offering wireless service that would allow people to hang out, browse the internet, check email, IM and whatever else, there are some things to take into consideration regarding who this will attract and how it will change the atmosphere of the place. Because it will. So sometimes businesses price things not so much to exploit people, but to preserve atmosphere.

First of all, Starbucks gets so many customers already, which is why they have a store for every two city blocks it seems. They don't need anything to get more people into their stores. They do just fine with coffee alone.

Second, I'm really glad that they're charging this kind of money, because if they didn't, Starbucks would turn into a teenager IM hangout or frathouse. It would destroy the whole atmosphere of the place. I know teens hang out a little bit at Starbucks to order their coffee like everyone else, but could you imagine them being there for hours IMing each other? Having free or very cheap service would just give them another reason for hanging out there all day and night while giving adults a reason to find some peace and quiet somewhere else. And I'm sure that's not only the kind of image Starbucks wants to avoid, but I'm sure they don't want to turn their stores into a place that is barely tolerable for business people, travelers, and other adults to sit and relax at. This pricing will be expensive enough to keep Starbucks from being absolutely flooded with teenagers in the store and the parking lot.

Of course, Starbucks wants to provide Wifi as a way to give adults a reason to hang out and buy more coffee. But I also think they want their stores to be a convenience for business people, travelers, and other adults. I don't think it's only about the money. And again, I believe the pricing structure, although not in the stratosphere, will be high enough to keep the visit time of those customers they don't want lining the place for hours, brief.

Ed Hansberry

08-26-2002, 08:07 PM

PhatCohiba

08-26-2002, 08:17 PM

I travel for work up and down the Northeast. I already know where a ton of Starbucks are. Once most of them are wired, I'd be more than happy to stop in, get a Iced Coffee, check my email, read Pocket PC Thoughts and go. :way to go:

I signed up for the 120 min plan for 20 bucks, figuring if I spend $20 bucks 3 or 4 times a year for part time access, then cool.

Since I have my WiFi Ipaq, I can check my email in about 2 min with a high bandwith connection.

Frankly, this totally beats paying a hotel $1 for the first 30 min plus $0.49/min after for a typically bad (28kbs) analog phone line in the hotel. :scrambleup:

humphrey22

08-26-2002, 08:33 PM

Security wise you would need a RADIUS component, Kerberos and more to really protect your wireless network currently. There are other solutions by OEMs on the way, but we will have to see what their effectiveness is like. WEP and all other wireless security settings on a wireless network have been thoroughly cracked, documented and the necessary tools released to the public (AirSnort, NetStumbler--MiniStumbler for PPC)!! That said the common user would find it a waste of time (maybe) to tap into the network. Well...unless he/she lived next door and even then they would be discovered eventually.

When will service providers realize the Internet is not for business people only anymore? It is mainstream now (has been for a few years)!!! The so-called 3G and Broadband services are not "taking off" like they thought or want because they make it waaaaay too expensive. Even businesses are cutting back in these hard times so where is the proverbial "cash cow"? The Starbucks connection would be a secondary or tertiary connection at best. Non-connected casual users might be tempted to make this their primary connection if the costs dropped (or again they live next door).

That said…one can only get DSL speed at home, T1 at work and ATM in the telephone company Central Office. This is such a cool way to surf the Net at such fast speeds throughout hundreds of locations nationwide—maybe even worldwide. My vote is for $20 a month. I originally though it should be less but the wide availability of T1 and better speeds is worth more than $10-$15 to me (to me). Why so low? Well it is, in my opinion, more than likely a secondary connection.

I think they should play off of the fact that you may already have a DSL/Cable connection and a cell phone plan that, combined, is costing you an arm and a leg. The DSL/Cable connection is very speedy, but it’s stationary. The cell phone data connection is convenient and portable, but it is extremely slow! ADV: “You get the best of both worlds and we are not trying to break the bank. Come visit us, have a cup of world-class coffee, work, play and see the world. Starbucks.” Awwww man where do I submit my application--hehe???

Bob Anderson

08-26-2002, 08:49 PM

I used this service when MobileStar was still in business (they had some test markets setup in the Seattle area - went broke - then got bought out by T Mobile). I paid the $30 per month for unlimited access and it was spectacular. I could log in to my e-mail, or use myVPN access to get into my corporate network. Amazing to say the least. All while I got my dose of caffeine!! 8)

I'm sure, during that time, I bought at least a couple extra drinks from Starbucks...

In the meantime, however, I have not renewed my monthly plan because I'd rather get hooked up on Verizon's Express Network and have usable speed everywhere (ok, not everywhere... but you know what I mean) than spend $30 just to get access at a few Starbuck's locations. I'm just waiting for Verizon to get Seattle's Express Network system setup :evil:

If T-Mobile can get more locations in it's HotSpot program, I think it will catch on. But if all it's going to do is give me high speed access at a Starbucks location then my days of shelling out $30 p/mo are most certainly over.

welmoed

08-26-2002, 10:05 PM

I image those of you in larger areas have even less trouble finding free access. A small charge to guarentee the connection might be reasonable, but, WOW, $30/month?

My 2cents
MatthewF

So how does one go about FINDING all these free WiFi sites? I have yet to find one, :? and I live in suburban Washington DC, which is pretty darned large and OUGHT to have something. But I cannot find anything. Is there a site somewhere that lists where to find them?

--Welmoed

yellow1

08-26-2002, 10:16 PM

as usual it's not as easy as some would have you think but here's a good place to start
http://www.netstumbler.com

humphrey22

08-26-2002, 10:28 PM

also on the same page is MiniStumbler for Pocket PC

welmoed

08-27-2002, 03:04 AM

also on the same page is MiniStumbler for Pocket PC

...which, unfortunately, works with a very limited number of cards and mine is not one of them :(

which also leads to another question: is it possible for one card to be able to connect to a network and not another? I would hate to pay for access only to discover that my particular setup wasn't compatible with the host system.

--Welmoed

yellow1

08-27-2002, 03:08 AM

no mystery there, Netstumbler works with cards using the Hermes chipset, i.e. Lucent/Orinoco/Avaya/Sony/Ibm/Compaq but not with Prism based cards (linksys, ambicom, dlink, netgear, etc...), mainly because Prism didn't release the SDK !

On the other if your card is 802.11b it will connect to all 802.11b networks as this is a standard.

sundown

08-27-2002, 05:39 AM

Ack! Good grief. It's like anything else, I'll buy in if the price is right and right now it seems high to me. Would my "subscription" work only at Starbucks or at hot spots all over? I was seriously going to buy a WiFi CF card for my Jornada just because of this but I'm not so sure now. Ghee, I wonder if the novelty would wear off for me, or perhaps I'll have to increase my budget for coffee since I'll want to be spending more time at Starbucks.

Terry

08-27-2002, 07:28 AM

I spend way too much money on mochas at Starbucks already...and it's usually in and out...I don't hang there...so much for my use...would be cool if they allowed limited free access, e.g., www.starbucks.com, CNN.com, PPCT.com, etc. and only charged for "full access."

Pony99CA

08-27-2002, 09:37 AM

What a rip off. $5 per hour tops. I'm supposed to buy their expensive coffee and then pay them to check my email or browse for a few minutes? Maybe they deserve something but $30 per hr is crazy.
First, it's more like $15 per hour, not $30. It is $30 per month.

Second, if you don't already have mobile Internet access through a cell phone plan, and if you frequent Starbucks, $30 per month doesn't sound so bad.

Let's break it down mathematically. At $2.99 for the first 15 minutes, the breakeven point is slightly more than 10 visits per month. If you visited Starbucks every weekday during a month, that's over 20 days. Even if you just stayed there to drink your coffee and do a little surfing, I think that would be worth $30 per month. If you actually spent an hour surfing, you'd break even on your third visit.

As I have never been to a Starbucks (I don't even like the smell of coffee), I wouldn't pay for it. I'd much rather pay $50 per month for an unlimited broadband plan through my cell phone company (if such a plan existed).

Steve

Pony99CA

08-27-2002, 09:45 AM

Pony99CA

08-27-2002, 09:52 AM

So how does one go about FINDING all these free WiFi sites? I have yet to find one, :? and I live in suburban Washington DC, which is pretty darned large and OUGHT to have something. But I cannot find anything. Is there a site somewhere that lists where to find them?

If you just want an online list of hotspots (as opposed to scanning for them yourself using something like NetStumbler), you can try http://www.80211hotspots.com (which was mentioned a little while ago on Pocket PC Thoughts, I think).

Steve

Pony99CA

08-27-2002, 09:56 AM

4) It keeps logging you off, maybe after every 5 minutes of inactivity, probably to prevent connection "borrowing" but it's still a pain. It's pretty basic protection

I suspect the reason is simpler than that. It will prevent complaints from people who forgot to logoff and ran up a large bill.

Steve

Carlos

08-27-2002, 03:56 PM

There have been many times while traveling for work (which I do often) when I would have killed for a high speed connection to get some work done. I know I can always count on Kinko's for a free high speed connection and a printer, but no comfort amenities. I might pay for some time at a Starbucks, but not much on this plan. For $5/hour I'd hang around for an hour. At this rate I'd do some quick business and leave.

I would certainly never pay for personal use of this system. If I wanted to come in and browse the news or my favorite sites just to relax, I couldn't at these rates! I'd be using a small amount of bandwidth but paying as I sit and read through a page.

I recently found an internet-enabled brew pub! I just wish they had one in every city. It was all-you-can use...free... With food and beer along with comfortable seating. I probably spent more on beer than I'd spend at Starbucks, but enjoyed it a lot more.

Kre

08-27-2002, 10:33 PM

Second, I'm really glad that they're charging this kind of money, because if they didn't, Starbucks would turn into a teenager IM hangout or frathouse. It would destroy the whole atmosphere of the place. I know teens hang out a little bit at Starbucks to order their coffee like everyone else, but could you imagine them being there for hours IMing each other?

I don't know, would $30 per month for unlimited access really be enough to discourage teens from hanging out there? Unless they also had some sort of food or beverage requirement, $1 a day for unlimited Internet access could be affordable even for teens.

Steve

Oh yeah, some of them definitely will have it. I'm not speaking in absolutes, but these days a lot of kids have or need their parents to pay revolving bills and for things like this. Some parents will make an investment in a computer because it's a necessary these days, but I don't think many parents are going to justify $30/mo. just for Starbucks access - that's too much of a novelty and isn't necessary.