iPAQ is 'tainted brand'

[Jason Dunn]

<a href="http://www.theregus.com/content/54/25757.html">http://www.theregus.com/content/54/25757.html</a><br /><br />What? No updates in five hours? Sorry guys, we're slipping. Anyway, here's one of the more interesting articles I've read on The Register in quite a while (it might be because it's not written by Register staff - hmm). Alex Kac was the first to bring it to our attention, and the article goes into detail over some of the issues that have plagued the iPAQ recently (they don't even go into the dust and screen issues from the 1st generation iPAQs). It's a great read, and by the end you'll be wondering, like me, why HP decided to keep the iPAQ (although we all know the reason - the iPAQ had better mindshare and marketshare than the Jornada). Not that the Jornada was perfect either - why can't anyone make a rock-solid Pocket PC without major flaws?<br /><br />"I recently had to go to bat for a user of the iPAQ. He tells me he's spent the last two years trying to get Dixons and Compaq to admit that his model has a duff circuit; it only works when absolutely fully charged. In the course of his two year battle, he's been persuaded by tech support that the machine isn't working because he has an out of date PC, and has been talked into buying a new one. He's been talked into buying new software, downloading "fixes" which don't fix, and generally, being miserable about lost data, lost business caused by failures, and wasted time. I got onto a senior Dixons executive working in quality control, and gave him a hard time. He seemed surprised I was bothering. "The iPAQ, you know what the problem with it is, surely? It doesn't work."

[PJE]

I read the article prior to your posting, and given its source - Guy Kewney who is/was one of the top computer magazine journalists - I give it some weight. Guy Kewney has sometimes dipped into the tabloid style, but in most articles what he states is proven right.

So.....What does this do for the 5000 series mentioned previously?

What I wanted is iPaq type innovation and HP (calculator style) robustness. I've had my HP 42S calculator for nearly 15 years and it still works flawlessly - although is that dust iunder the screen.... :wink:

My 2c

PJE

[Take1]

HP Rep: "We don't do things like that in HP. If a product has faults, we withdraw it, we replace it, we fix it, we produce a new rollout. It's terribly expensive! - so we don't launch a product till it's ready. But Compaq was just producing faulty designs, and replacing them with untested updates."

Err... What about the dust ridden HP56x series?! That's NEVER really been fixed.

The iPAQ is extremley buggy -- SD slot causing the system to freeze and the backlight problem being the major problems I've encountered. The bluetooth and expansion pack problems are intolerable! These things really should have been discovered before release.

[Jason Dunn]

Err... What about the dust ridden HP56x series?! That's NEVER really been fixed.

Well, FWIW, HP didn't hassle me about returning my unit because of dust. And in the 54x series, when it was revealed that they were 12 bit colour and not 16 bit colour, they offered full refunds to people. THAT was quite good of them.

[Jimmy Dodd]

What I wanted is iPaq type innovation and HP (calculator style) robustness. I've had my HP 42S calculator for nearly 15 years and it still works flawlessly - although is that dust iunder the screen....


I can beat that. My Helwett Packard 41CV turns twenty this year. It's the only calculator I've owned since high school.

...and no dust, either.

---
Bwana Jim

[Jimmy Dodd]

Err... What about the dust ridden HP56x series?! That's NEVER really been fixed.

Well, FWIW, HP didn't hassle me about returning my unit because of dust. And in the 54x series, when it was revealed that they were 12 bit colour and not 16 bit colour, they offered full refunds to people. THAT was quite good of them.

They did the same for my 430se. Full refund, no questions asked because of the 12bit/16bit mess. I didn't even know it was 12 bit only until they told me.

[Paragon]

"I recently had to go to bat for a user of the iPAQ........... I got onto a senior Dixons executive working in quality control, and gave him a hard time. He seemed surprised I was bothering.

Jason, that is very cool of you to do that. I'm impressed!

Dave

[JonnoB]

iPaq was first with a cool design and the name became to mean PocketPC to the uneducated... similar to how "PalmPilot" means "PDA" to many folks. The Jornada 56x line however eclipsed the iPaq. I thought the decision was premature... and maybe this is a glimpse that they are re-evaluating that position. I have owned both (my wife still has an iPaq) and I still can't see a reason why someone would prefer the iPaq design with it's requirement for bulky sleds to have any meaningful expansion capabilities.

[Jason Dunn]

Jason, that is very cool of you to do that. I'm impressed!

Uhh...that was a quote from the article...not something I did. :D

[palmsolo]

Boy, after reading all the issues with the iPaq 3800/3900 series devices it really makes me glad I stuck with my trusty Jornada 568. I had a couple specs of dust and received a replacement quickly. Other than minor dust issues I have had nothing but solid performance from my Jornada. My 548 was a workhorse too and my wife still uses it (and she is nowhere as careful as I am with my devices). I have never once had to perform a hard reset, which is pretty amazing considering I review a ton of software and regularly install and remove programs. I loaded up with the PC battery pack and MMC battery and plan on sticking with this solid device for a while. Nothing out there impresses me yet, although the LOOX may be a nice unit.

I can't say enough how I NEED the removeable battery and think it should be a standard. I took a trip to San Diego last week and went without any type of charging device and just had my extra battery pack. I could work on my Jornada all I wanted to and not worry about shutting down because I could simply replace the battery. Why don't they have users like us designing and making decisions on Pocket PC devices? I think we could turn out a winner.

[Duncan]

As an ex owner of the nightmare that was the 3870 I have to say this has me in stitches! :lol:

For non-UK residents it should be noted that arguing with Dixons over faulty products is rather akin to hitting your head repeatedly against a brick wall - just a lot more painful!

My first 3870 (bought from PC World - part of the Dixons Group) had a battery life of around 2 - 3 hours max and a backlight that rarely worked. Taking it back, the manager patiently explained to me that that was normal and there was nothing wrong with it!

iPAQ - could have been great - turned out to be junk - but if HP are going the Jornada way then they have a lot more common sense than I ever gave them credit for!

As for the 3900 series - if this was largely a Comcrap effort then sometime, in some way, it will go wrong....!

[Paragon]

Jason, that is very cool of you to do that. I'm impressed!

Uhh...that was a quote from the article...not something I did. :D

Oh it make more sense now! :D :D :D

I think I better slow down and read things through before I comment.

Dave

[psyfactor]

Err... What about the dust ridden HP56x series?! That's NEVER really been fixed.


I think it has been fixed. I bought a new HP Jornada 568 4 weeks ago and it still has NO dust underneath the screen. My girl friend's 4 months old Jornada 565 has no dust either. Anyways, maybe it's just my luck :P

[psyfactor]

I loaded up with the PC battery pack and MMC battery and plan on sticking with this solid device for a while. Nothing out there impresses me yet, although the LOOX may be a nice unit.
...
I can't say enough how I NEED the removeable battery and think it should be a standard.

I'm considering buying that MMC battery for my Jornada 568, but I have something that's still holding me back: does it add alot of thickness to the device? does it support SD memery card (because of its name). I really don't care about SDIO and digital security features, just the SD memory card will do. Please give me an advice. Also, I wonder if HP has some kind of external battery charger for this type of battery.

[pradike]

:roll: If I had a nickel for every happy Ipaq user I know, I could make a couple of house payments - me included.

While NO PDA made today is perfect...try me...I can find a few faults with any one of them - and many more have major defects than the Ipaq, including the "touted" Toshiba E740...I know 2 people who bought & returned them already...

Rather than PDA bash, I believe the issue here is that any company (HP, Toshiba, Palm, etc.) needs to take responsibility when they mass manufacture something that has more than isolated flaws - such as the backlight problem on the Ipaq. While I have escaped that one so far, I can empathize with those who have not. It is frustrating to invest $$$ in something that simply doesn't work, and the manufacturer is either in denial about it, or else blatently lying - I'll give Compaq the benefit that they were simply in denial. They need to either recall them or offer to fix them for free - which is what they are doing.

As a former Casio, Jornada & Palm user - I can tell you my Ipaq 3835 is mountaintops above those units. When I also hear the horror stories about the Jornadas & Palms my co-workers have used (and one Treo-hater who returned his already too), I consider myself both lucky and happy.

PDAs are not a science (yet anyway), they're an art...as much show as go & technology. Every other person has different opinions on form factor, size, weight, screens, etc. I played with both the new Toshiba E740 & Ipaq 3900 and was UNDERWHELMED by both - I heard so much about the "great new screens", and then (after seeing them in person) said "big deal, not that great".

At the end of the day, if you can use your PDA for what you bought it for (I have 5 different daily dependencies, including syncing with 3 differnt PC machines, wireless network connections, and connection via digital phones - all work as advertised), then you should be and probably are happy. I am.

If not, try and get your money back or learn from you errant ways in the future. Whining doesn't make things better, it just makes us all listen to the whining.

[Paragon]

PsyFactor

The MMC battery is about twice as thick as the normal battery. If you take out the normal battery turn it slightly so it doesn't slip back into place, that about how it looks and feels.

As for SD....it's hit and miss. I use a Sandisk 128mb card in mine with no problems. However many others have had no luck with Sd cards in it.
Dave

[Will T Smith]

iPaq was first with a cool design and the name became to mean PocketPC to the uneducated... similar to how "PalmPilot" means "PDA" to many folks. The Jornada 56x line however eclipsed the iPaq. I thought the decision was premature... and maybe this is a glimpse that they are re-evaluating that position. I have owned both (my wife still has an iPaq) and I still can't see a reason why someone would prefer the iPaq design with it's requirement for bulky sleds to have any meaningful expansion capabilities.

I was flabbergasted by HPaq's decision to kill of a PocketPC line period. Mobile devices are a growing market segment. It would have been advantages to exploit BOTH customer bases by providing both camps what they wanted.

By contrast, the decision to maintain BOTH PC lines will be a debacle. The PC market is low margin AND shrinking markably. Fiorina cited this in the whole justification for the merger. Instead of killing off a low-margin redundant business, they killed a high margin growth business.

In the end this probably had more to do with internal VP politics. However, HP investors will rue the day that they merged with Compaq. Fiorina's soon to be successor will rue the decision to kill HP Jornada and HP's Calculators.

[dwprice]

:Whining doesn't make things better, it just makes us all listen to the whining.

These personal attacks appear in every article about people who express dissatisfaction with the iPaq. Can't understand it myself. Somehow characterizing people who post disagreeable messages as "whiners" and "children" is considered a more worthy posting than actual discussion of PDAs and their pitfalls.

Seems to me a company would be more willing to address problems if those problems are flung in their face on a regular basis than if everyone wandered about with a stiff upper lip. Expressing dissatisfaction sounds like a great way to foster competition because it shows a chink in the armor of the so-called "market leader"-- an opportunity! How would that be worse for consumers?

Silence is self-defeating acquiescence to mediocrity.

[Doug Raeburn]

Developers and pioneers don't mind that. But real users of a Pocket PC who want a wireless LAN, don't go for an iPAQ because to use an iPAQ with its huge, heavy PCMCIA jacket, you have to be dedicated. Real users aren't; and they have gone for the Jornada, with a CompactFlash wireless card - neat, small, and much less power-greedy.


Huh??? So what's stopping iPAQ owners from using a CompactFlash wireless card with a CF expansion sleeve... like I do every day?

[TBone]

I'm sorry, but I have a lot of trouble believing what this article wants me to believe. For one thing, insisting that it was just "prototypers" and developers keeping the iPAQ going this long might possibly be true in England--but it sure as hell doesn't explain the top-selling numbers here in the US. There just aren't enough geeks to make a device like the iPAQ sell so much that it was scarce, and that's exactly what happened.

Moreover, the iPAQ did have a ton of faults, but I tend to believe that a lot had to do with the complexity of the system being created. Take the expansion sleeve concept, for example. Immediately, you introduce a whole host of factors (the sleeve's circuitry, connection with the iPAQ, the drivers for both) that weren't there with a fully integrated device like the Jornada.

Now, I'm not apologizing for the faults of the iPAQ (although as a former 3100 user I can't say I saw them much) but it seems to me like this article is overly critical, and also not particularly accurate. Again, perhaps in England the customer support was particularly poor, but I remember a lot of people having their iPAQs replaced for free due to dust or battery issues. Maybe this article appeals to the kneejerk iPAQ-reflex in us all, but I don't think that its conclusions are very trustworthy.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

:Whining doesn't make things better, it just makes us all listen to the whining.

These personal attacks appear in every article about people who express dissatisfaction with the iPaq. Can't understand it myself. Somehow characterizing people who post disagreeable messages as "whiners" and "children" is considered a more worthy posting than actual discussion of PDAs and their pitfalls.

Thank you. Let me just say that I am an iPaq 3835 owner and yes, I do see the backlight issues as well as the SD slowdowns. Aside from that, the iPaq has been a solid device for me. However, this is the 3rd PDA that I've owned (Palm V, Casio EM500) and it's definitely the least stable of the three.

Thus, I do understand the frustrations of other iPaq users. Some of the issues found didn't occur until after 30 days from purchase. Additionally, while it's expected that devices will have defects, what separates the good companies from the great is the customer support provided. Does the company take responsibility for their mistakes? Can they provide adequate turnaround on customer complaints? Do they provide fixes that actually fix?

Other potential customers deserve to know the answers to these questions and companies would do well to heed this feedback if they're interested in maintaining (or gaining) marketshare.

To refer to this feedback as "whining" b/c you are a happy iPaq user is to completely ignore the the benefit it provides to users and companies.

Ekkie

[JonnoB]

I'm sorry, but I have a lot of trouble believing what this article wants me to believe. For one thing, insisting that it was just "prototypers" and developers keeping the iPAQ going this long might possibly be true in England--but it sure as hell doesn't explain the top-selling numbers here in the US. There just aren't enough geeks to make a device like the iPAQ sell so much that it was scarce, and that's exactly what happened.


I think it is quite possible. There was and has been a 'herd' mentality. Even the 'IS/IT Experts' that I talk to often refer to our PocketPC OS as the 'IPAQ' even when you are holding a Jornada or other PPC. As they (Compaq) were first... when looking for a Windows based PDA, the IPAQ name will always come up first and that is what people will buy. At least from what I have seen, PocketPC buyers by the large masses know not the differences between the different models... in fact, when talking to them they think the PocketPC -is- the IPAQ.

It is for this brand recognition alone that I think that HP has kept the IPAQ name. It could very well be that HP uses the Jornada design in future implementations and just uses the IPAQ brand. In fact, the Jornada was in fact a better machine, but the IPAQ carries more recognition. I believe that this article covers many aspects, but most importantly, covers the fact that the IPAQ brand name may popular, but is gaining negative popularity and that HP may have re-think its branding priorities.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Developers and pioneers don't mind that. But real users of a Pocket PC who want a wireless LAN, don't go for an iPAQ because to use an iPAQ with its huge, heavy PCMCIA jacket, you have to be dedicated. Real users aren't; and they have gone for the Jornada, with a CompactFlash wireless card - neat, small, and much less power-greedy.


Huh??? So what's stopping iPAQ owners from using a CompactFlash wireless card with a CF expansion sleeve... like I do every day?

They didn't state it in plain English, since they only referred to the PCMCIA jacket, but I think the idea is that you need a bulky jacket to add functionality inherent in add-on cards (whether CF or PC).

While it's true that users can add CF jackets with little bulk (using the Silver Slider), that's extra TCO added.

For the record, I do carry around an iPaq 3835 with a PCMCIA jacket.

[TBone]

TBone wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have a lot of trouble believing what this article wants me to believe. For one thing, insisting that it was just "prototypers" and developers keeping the iPAQ going this long might possibly be true in England--but it sure as hell doesn't explain the top-selling numbers here in the US. There just aren't enough geeks to make a device like the iPAQ sell so much that it was scarce, and that's exactly what happened.



I think it is quite possible. There was and has been a 'herd' mentality. Even the 'IS/IT Experts' that I talk to often refer to our PocketPC OS as the 'IPAQ' even when you are holding a Jornada or other PPC. As they (Compaq) were first... when looking for a Windows based PDA, the IPAQ name will always come up first and that is what people will buy. At least from what I have seen, PocketPC buyers by the large masses know not the differences between the different models... in fact, when talking to them they think the PocketPC -is- the IPAQ.

Point taken, and I agree with you that the iPAQ is the stereotypical PocketPC--when people think PocketPC, they think iPAQ. But consider two things. First, most people I talk to don't even call the iPAQ by its brand name. They call it a "Palm Pilot." We're not fighting lack of differentiation among PocketPCs, we're fighting differentiation among any PDAs, period. The only people who seem to know the difference are enthusiasts.

Second, I'm not disagreeing that the iPAQ has a recognizable brand name. I'm debating the fact that the article seems to want us to believe that A) service was really bad for the iPAQs, which I don't think it was, and B) the iPAQ only sold to "developers and pioneers." At the same time, it tries to say that "Real users... have gone for the Jornada, with a CompactFlash wireless card." Neither, by your own admission, would seem to be true.

Maybe I'm misreading the article, but it just doesn't fit for me.

[ppcsurfr]

Developers and pioneers don't mind that. But real users of a Pocket PC who want a wireless LAN, don't go for an iPAQ because to use an iPAQ with its huge, heavy PCMCIA jacket, you have to be dedicated. Real users aren't; and they have gone for the Jornada, with a CompactFlash wireless card - neat, small, and much less power-greedy.


Huh??? So what's stopping iPAQ owners from using a CompactFlash wireless card with a CF expansion sleeve... like I do every day?

It isn't as pocketable as a Jornada. Better try one out and you might change your mind about your iPAQ.

[Uh_Andy]

I think it's true Compaq's quality control has been pretty bad - but considering the incredible pressure they were under to get units out the door, I think it's a bit understandable. Remember when an iPaq 3600 could be sold for 50% over msrp on ebay? It seemed like Compaq was doubling production every other week because people were screaming for iPaqs.

But I think their customer service has been great! I started with a Compaq 2010 in 1996 I think. When the charger went bad Compaq promptly sent me a new charger and a new battery overnight - no charge.

A couple of years ago I bought a 3600 from a friend - I think it was the last one available anywhere in the city. After a week the screen flipped. I called Compaq and they had it replaced within two days - no charge. Then there was the famed dust saga. Whenever it got bad enough I would call Compaq and they would send me a fresh unit - no charge - until they finally solved the problem completely.

Then I sold the 3600 and bought a 3700 - no dust ever - and what a great PPC. They learn from their mistakes. In fact, I just sold the 3700 and bought a 3970 two weeks ago. It is the coolest yet. Built in BT, 4 bit SD, best screen ever, consumer IR... it rocks. It's the best iPaq Pocket PC Palm Pilot ever :lol:

So, I guess I just don't understand all the animosity towards Compaq. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[Chairman Clench]

I'm debating the fact that the article seems to want us to believe that A) service was really bad for the iPAQs, which I don't think it was, and B) the iPAQ only sold to "developers and pioneers." At the same time, it tries to say that "Real users... have gone for the Jornada, with a CompactFlash wireless card." Neither, by your own admission, would seem to be true.

Maybe I'm misreading the article, but it just doesn't fit for me.

I can attest to the fact that "service was really bad for the iPAQs."

My 3850 has been back to them 3 times for repair and replaced once.

The first time it went back was for a non-working SD Slot. They claimed they fixed it. To this day I still perform frequent hard resets to make it recognize SD cards.

The second time it went back was for the "locking up in the cradle" issue. They said they fixed it. To this day it still locks up in the cradle.

The third time was a few weeks ago for the backlight issue. They said they fixed it. It is still not working correctly.

That's 0 for 3, folks.

I have spoken to people who have sent their iPAQs in for repair 14 (yes FOURTEEN) times within the first year.


Add to that the fact that the tech support reps tell you a different story each time you call. Add to that the fact that Compaq STILL hasn't released the new ROM for the non-BT models.

Trust me, from experience I can tell you the service IS bad for many (but not all) people.

[Chairman Clench]

By the way...

ipaqpetition.com has crossed the 1100 signature mark in just 6 days of the site being live.

That's a lot of unhappy iPAQ users. Especially considering that we have only gotten the message out to a VERY small fraction of the total iPAQ user population.

[Grey]

Compaq Service:
They had my 3870 twice now, First one kill the SD cards (three cards three brands) Had the backlight problem.

Fix new Motherboard new inverter board for backlight. Same backlight problem, now to turn on, you need to do it 10 to 15 times, before it would come on and stay.

New unit, Now it can't read the SD card at all.

Yes great service. Every update adds a new problem, every fix causes a new problem.

[JonnoB]

Huh??? So what's stopping iPAQ owners from using a CompactFlash wireless card with a CF expansion sleeve... like I do every day?

No one is stopping them... but if you use almost ANY other PocketPC, there is no "sleeve" to add to the bulk just to get wireless. The Jornada line in question can use CF in its small form factor without any need for expansion. The iPaq is so far behind the design curve, you can now get a Toshiba with either BT or WiFi integrated.... and STILL have both an open CF slot and an open SD slot.

For this reason and the crazy price differential, I will not buy an iPaq.... unfortunately... the uneducated buying public in typical herd mentaility will probably buy a few...

[Pony99CA]

:Whining doesn't make things better, it just makes us all listen to the whining.

These personal attacks appear in every article about people who express dissatisfaction with the iPaq. Can't understand it myself. Somehow characterizing people who post disagreeable messages as "whiners" and "children" is considered a more worthy posting than actual discussion of PDAs and their pitfalls.

Pradike hardly made a personal attack. He did not attack any user; he didn't even reference a specific post (but you did). He did not call anyone "whiners" or "children". So why did you cite his post?

There's a huge difference between criticizing a behavior and a person. If I say you did something stupid, I'm not saying that you are stupid, just that that specific action was.

Yes, Pradike made a value judgment about the tone of the thread (whining means to complain in a childish manner), but not necessarily about any person.


Seems to me a company would be more willing to address problems if those problems are flung in their face on a regular basis than if everyone wandered about with a stiff upper lip. Expressing dissatisfaction sounds like a great way to foster competition because it shows a chink in the armor of the so-called "market leader"-- an opportunity! How would that be worse for consumers?

Silence is self-defeating acquiescence to mediocrity.
The reason it's "whining" is because it does very little good here. If you want the manufacturer to fix the problem, contact the manufacturer. DUH!

If you want to see if other people are having the problem, sites like this are great places. But to fix a problem, go to the source. If the manufacturer won't help, then maybe something like a petition will work. If that doesn't work, there's always the last resort -- a class action lawsuit. But complaining in a place that will be difficult to find in three days won't do a lot of good, which some people will see as whining.

Steve

[atsouch]

I don't know if everyone has read the whole article.

An interesting part is that Compaq had rejected a GSM/GPRS PPC designed by HTC. This device is now O2's XDA. That's why Compaq doesn't have a GPRS PocketPC and HP had to go on with Jornada 928.

It also explains why HP doesn't have a Blutooth device yet.

At the end of the article there is also a hint for a Jornada coming in Spring 2003...

The problem with the iPaq/Jornada brand policy is that HP zapped the Singapore team that was responsible for many of the design features that made Jornada a hit among the professionals.

Andreas Tsouchlaris
Athens Pocket PC User Group (http://www.nextbeta.com/appug.htm)

[Rob Alexander]

For this reason and the crazy price differential, I will not buy an iPaq.... unfortunately... the uneducated buying public in typical herd mentaility will probably buy a few...

:x This is the sort of irritating comment that starts flame wars. You have particular needs and perhaps the iPaq doesn't meet them. But you have no idea what the needs of others are and are in no position to characterize those for whom the iPaq may be the better choice as "uneducated" or subject to "herd mentality".

My iPaq is exactly what I need. Unless you have some education beyond a PhD, then you're in no position to call me uneducated. And since I thoroughly researched my current choice of PPC and based it on a working knowledge of PPCs that extends back to WinCE 1.0, having owned devices from Philips, Casio, HP and Compaq, if I'm following a herd, then it's a particularly schizophrenic one.

In short, make your decisions for yourself and don't try to caricature others. A decision different from yours is not inferior, it's simply different.

[dwprice]

Pradike hardly made a personal attack. He did not attack any user; he didn't even reference a specific post (but you did). He did not call anyone "whiners" or "children". So why did you cite his post?
The reason it's "whining" is because it does very little good here. If you want the manufacturer to fix the problem, contact the manufacturer. DUH!


My use of the quotation reflects the fact that he has created a negative, emotion-laden label for anyone who engages in the conduct he describes. ie. if you do X then you are a whiner. Thus everyone who does X is already a whiner. This is arguing with emotion vs. arguing with fact. because it uses labels. "Duh" is along the same lines, implying that I am missing some obvious fact and so am mentally deficient.

As for efficacy, it may be far more effective to convince a company to act by scaring away 1,000 customers than by sending the company unanswered emails, or waiting on its service line on hold for long periods.

As the people who are complaining have managed to continue to collect signatures (which I understand require a serial number each) and attract the attention of media, I'm not sure how I see that their complaints "do no good." That's just another sweeping generalization as it does not address what the goals of the complainers are. They may think it does a lot of good because for some reason, all kinds of people (including, for some unfathomable reason, those who "hate whiners") keep coming into the discussion threads about complaints and reading and posting responses.

ie. They're getting attention which is the whole point.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

The reason it's "whining" is because it does very little good here. If you want the manufacturer to fix the problem, contact the manufacturer. DUH!

If one doesn't want to see people "whining" about their iPaq problems, then I fail to understand why they'd join a thread for an article that was clearly labeled as "Tainted iPaq".

The article itself raises a lot of interesting points / quotes / insights into the iPaq itself and how Compaq has treated the iPaq issues. The fact of the matter is that if no one had been "whining" about the iPaq issues in the first place, we probably would never have seen such an article written.

While I have a functioning iPaq w/o any major issues, I would say it's more than relevant for other posters to recount their experiences regarding the iPaq and the support they've received (as long as personal attacks are kept out). However, I don't think it's appropriate to throw a subjectively negative term such as "whiners" when the thread is about the very thing they are addressing.

Ekkie

[JonnoB]

:x This is the sort of irritating comment that starts flame wars. You have particular needs and perhaps the iPaq doesn't meet them. But you have no idea what the needs of others are and are in no position to characterize those for whom the iPaq may be the better choice as "uneducated" or subject to "herd mentality".

From personal experience, many buyers of PDAs are 'uneducated' as to the capabilities, features, and especially to the options available. I did not mean that the people were just uneducated. I am sure that the iPaq fits the bill for many people.... even I purchased an iPaq once. What I was communicating was not an attempt to flame or 'put down' other people's choices of PDA, but to highlight the issue with many consumers who buy product on name recognition alone without learning of the options.

I believe there is no justification in Compaq charging so much more for their device when comparable or even arguably better PDA options are available for less. The iPaq may be an established standard imposed by some corporate established standard or by way of contract established with Compaq, etc. Others may have an investment in iPaq sleeves and accessories that make it a good choice. I have no issue with peoples choices like this. For myself and many others however, the price differential and lack of integrated CF slot is enough to make us run away. I think this would hold true for more potential iPaq users if they just knew.

[psyfactor]

PsyFactor

The MMC battery is about twice as thick as the normal battery.

As for SD....it's hit and miss. I use a Sandisk 128mb card in mine with no problems. However many others have had no luck with Sd cards in it.
Dave
Thanks for the reply. I think can deal with that thickness :) But what's about the access speed of SD/MMC card for application and MP3 files?

[Jason Dunn]

I think I better slow down and read things through before I comment.

Well, if you did that, your post count would be 50% lower. :wink: :lol:

[Jason Dunn]

I'm considering buying that MMC battery for my Jornada 568, but I have something that's still holding me back: does it add alot of thickness to the device? does it support SD memery card (because of its name).

Yes it does add the thickness, and while I was able to use my SD card in it, others haven't. It really only "officially" supports MMC.

[Pony99CA]

Pradike hardly made a personal attack. He did not attack any user; he didn't even reference a specific post (but you did). He did not call anyone "whiners" or "children". So why did you cite his post?
The reason it's "whining" is because it does very little good here. If you want the manufacturer to fix the problem, contact the manufacturer. DUH!

My use of the quotation reflects the fact that he has created a negative, emotion-laden label for anyone who engages in the conduct he describes. ie. if you do X then you are a whiner. Thus everyone who does X is already a whiner. This is arguing with emotion vs. arguing with fact. because it uses labels. "Duh" is along the same lines, implying that I am missing some obvious fact and so am mentally deficient.

I did think you were missing an obvious fact, hence the "DUH". Even very intelligent people miss obvious points at times; I know I have (and probably will in the future). As I don't know you, I can't state whether or not you're mentally deficient, but I generally believe in giving the benefit of the doubt. :-) :-)

It also seems like you were missing the point of my post, because you're still using the word "whiners". Neither Pradike nor anyone else used that term. You were the first one to use it.

As I said, Pradike seemed to be describing the tone of the thread as whining, not any poster as a whiner. If you can't separate describing an instance of a behavior from a description of a person, there's not much point in discussing this any more.

As for efficacy, it may be far more effective to convince a company to act by scaring away 1,000 customers than by sending the company unanswered emails, or waiting on its service line on hold for long periods.

Scaring customers away will only work if the company knows why the customers are being scared away. For example, if HP/Compaq sees sales drop, they could think it's because the Toshiba e740 offers more features at a much lower price, not because of quality problems. So instead of fixing the problems, this may encourage them to rush the next device out to compete with Toshiba, potentially leading to more problems.

I believe that it is far more effective to fix quality problems by having a whole slew of people demand fixes for a problam than to simply have sales disappear.

As the people who are complaining have managed to continue to collect signatures (which I understand require a serial number each) and attract the attention of media, I'm not sure how I see that their complaints "do no good." That's just another sweeping generalization as it does not address what the goals of the complainers are. They may think it does a lot of good because for some reason, all kinds of people (including, for some unfathomable reason, those who "hate whiners") keep coming into the discussion threads about complaints and reading and posting responses.

ie. They're getting attention which is the whole point.

You're referring to the petition drive, not the thread here, though. As my original post said, a petition is a good second step if dealing with the manufacturer didn't work.


While I have a functioning iPaq w/o any major issues, I would say it's more than relevant for other posters to recount their experiences regarding the iPaq and the support they've received (as long as personal attacks are kept out). However, I don't think it's appropriate to throw a subjectively negative term such as "whiners" when the thread is about the very thing they are addressing

See the previous paragraphs. Nobody called anyone a "whiner"; Pradike said there was "whining" going on, but I believe that referred to the tone of the thread.

As I said, I believe in giving the benefit of the doubt most of the time, and don't think Pradike was trying to offend anybody. If people weren't so quick to take offense, maybe a lot of flame wars would be avoided.

Steve

[Jason Dunn]

Please - enough of this tit for tat about who is whining and who isn't. If criticism is whining, then this is the whiniest site on the 'Net...no comments from the peanut gallery. :wink:

[Jonathon Watkins]

Would not even dream about commenting! :D
:agrue: