Official iPAQ Petition

[Jason Dunn]

<a href="http://www.ipaqpetition.com/">http://www.ipaqpetition.com/</a><br /><br />We've seen discussion threads kicking around the problems with the iPAQ, but it seems that someone has decided to take it to the next level by creating this web site. I have mixed feelings about a site like this, but I have to admit that the sheer number of patches and issues with the iPAQ is clearly disproportionate compared to other Pocket PCs on the market.<br /><br />"Thank you for visiting this page. We have created this website to highlight the problems many users have had with the products known as the iPAQ PocketPC. This includes the 3600, 3700, and 3800 series of products. As consumers, we work very hard for our money. If a company releases a product that does not function as promised, the product is defective. It is then that company's responsibility to remedy the situation by fixing or replacing the product. The end result must be that consumers are provided with a product that functions as promised." In the case of the iPAQ series of PocketPCs HP/Compaq have failed to do so."

[Steven Cedrone]

Wow.....

This site really tries to address all of the issues with the Ipaq. However, since they are also laying blame to Microsoft, maybe they should just use the petition to reflect all Pocket PC's. I mean, the Jornada is not perfect, neither is Toshiba, symbol, etc.

As a matter of fact, how can they hope to be compensated for faulty products when the hardware manufacturer can blame the software company and vice-versa (Talk about an endless loop).....

I honestly don't think we will ever find a tech product (especially as early adapters) that we are 100% satisfied with.......

Just my .02

Steve

[pt]

if i were them, i'd place a link to each software update that addresses each "bug" they could not only draw attention to the old "bugs" but help people get the latest software. most of what they're listing is old news and has been fixed in one way or another.

[denivan]

Quote from their site :
Instead, HP/Compaq chose to continue producing and selling defective products with the 37xx and 38xx series iPAQs. As a result, all three series of color iPAQs suffer from serious issues rendering them defective.
/End quote

I really don't get this, I've had two 3660's until now (the first was replace under carepaq warranty because the paint got scrached up bad) and I haven't found any defects yet that render the device unusable. I also haven't gotten any dust until now , so I'm wondering, are the 36xx and 37xx really problem children or is the 38xx the only device that truly suffers from difficulties ?

[DrtyBlvd]

Anyone fancy setting ones up for (in no particular order of course) :

Win 95
Win 98
Win 98ME
Win2k
WinXP
WinOffice
WinExcel
WinPowerpoint
AllGraphixDrivers
MostModemonestoo
98%ofFaxsoftware
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc

I always liked the old email about "If cars ran Windows"

I suppose it does pose an interesting question - namely at what point is the company in question 'breaking-even' with regard to their public image - and let's face it, on Microsofts track record, have they ever been in deficit spending?

The only one that springs to mind was Cokes' attempt at changing to, was it something like Coke classic?

[denivan]

Okay, I'm getting more curious whether the 38xx really is such a bad machine. This is everything the site says about the 36xx and 37xx series. I'll add comments from my experience with my 3660's and I invite others to do the same.

1. Dust or tiny glass fragments collect underneath the screen of these devices. This is a result of improper manufacturing practice. The dust continues to accumulate and impairs the user’s ability to clearly see the screen.

--> Apparantly a common problem found on discussion forums. Haven't had any dust issues what so ever myself.

2. The speaker will randomly stop working on many of these devices.

--> No problem here

3. The speaker demonstrates a “popping” noise when a sound or audio file begins to play.

--> Happens sometimes, not very often.

4. User backlight settings are not remembered by the device and reset to the factory default randomly.

--> I've noticed this a couple of times, rather annoying although not rendering the device 'defective'.

5. The navigation disk will randomly get stuck in a direction causing uncontrollable scrolling in that direction. The navigation disk does not get physically stuck, the directional command gets stuck.

--> No problem here

6. Occasionally, the iPAQ Today screen will stop refreshing. Images from previously opened programs will remain on the screen and the typical Today screen images (such as Calendar appointments, Tasks, etc.) will not display.

--> No problem here

7. The battery of these devices may completely drain overnight even if the device has a full charge and the device is not in use. This causes all data and programs stored in RAM to be deleted.

--> I have noticed that battery life indeed is decreasing after alot of charges. I thought this was common for batteries that after alot of charges they lose about 20% of their capacity. Draining overnight without use is weird though and I haven't had that problem.

8. These devices will randomly become stuck in an endless loop which prevents the device from moving beyond the “alignment” screen.

--> No problem here.
9. These devices are unpredictably unreliable when connected to a host PC via a USB cradle or cable connection.

--> Unreliable? What do they mean with this? Does it start attacking people at random or something ? ;-)

10. The iPAQ cradle does not always make solid contact with the handheld device due to the way it was designed.

--> No problem here

11. The stylus does not always eject due to a poor design of the ejection system.

--> I thought normally the stylus lock got broken so that ejection would happen when you didn't want it (had this problem with my first 3660)

12. Power button slips inside the unit so it is no longer visible in the hole.

--> No problem here

13. The hard reset cover may break off completely or fail to stay closed.

--> No problem here, is this only for people who use their hard reset button every week or so ? I've need my hard reset button two times untill now, so I can't see how that can break the cover.

14. The power button may completely fail to operate the device.

--> No probleme here

15. The digitizer becomes misaligned and will not recognize stylus taps in the correct location even after the user attempts to re-calibrate the digitizer.

--> Heard about this problem on forums, haven't had this problem myself.

16. Activesync connections to a host computer suffer from a variety of problems including only syncing once before forcing a reboot to sync additional times, failure to sync at all, and the random loss of Activesync partnerships.

--> Can we blame this on compaq ? Once in a while I need to open taskmanager, kill activesync and then start it again. Is this really a compaq problem?


Anywayz, I was wondering if all the problems that were listed (and I don't have) are common problems. Do people really frequently have those problems and are the 36xx 37xx and 38xx really bad machines? Or are the problems that are listed more exceptions than rule ?

Glad to hear from your experience.

Ivan

[CoffeeKid]

As consumers, we work very hard for our money. If a company releases a product that does not function as promised, the product is defective. It is then that company's responsibility to remedy the situation by fixing or replacing the product. The end result must be that consumers are provided with a product that functions as promised." In the case of the iPAQ series of PocketPCs HP/Compaq have failed to do so."

While I am thankful someone is taking this stand and pointing out to Compaq/HP that we iPaq owners are not very happy with the products and the sometimes lacksidaisy fixes, when I read the above, the main thought that went thru my head was

"gee, don't buy much software, do these guys?"

The fact is, the entire computer industry, or at least the software side of things has made us all very accepting of the amount of bugs and poor or shoddy coding that is allowed to go through the dev stage to a final product.

I remember back when Netscape 4.0 was still in beta. I sent in several beta reports to the company pointing out several severe errors, including the (now infamous) nested tables bugs, serious bugs in the implementation of CSS 1.0 and other issues. The nested tables bug was the worst of the lot, but you know what? They never fixed it in the beta, they never fixed it in 4.0, 4.02, 4.08, 4.1 etc etc. The last Netscape 4.x I have was 4.78 or something like that, and the bug still existed.

That's just one example. We're so used to software companies either ignoring bugs or playing spinnarooni with the terminology (it isn't a bug, it's a feature!) that is it any real surprise to expect anything different from the iPaq and its hardware issues or implementation of the OS?

Another poster mentioned "if windows was a car...." yes. a very sad but true comparison. We've put up with software bugs for so long that my question is this - what makes us compaq iPaq customers so special that we believe we should be singled out as a special group that should get new machines with new OS at no charge or cost?

We've let various software companies get away with bugs for so long (Microsoft and Corel are at the top of that heap) that in many ways, the poor performance of the iPaqs is in some ways our own doing... companies don't have the complete impetus to release 100% bug free and "works as promised" software and hardware... because they don't have to. We'll buy it anyway.

Mark

[Steven Cedrone]

The other thing I wanted to touch upon: I sat down and took a good look at my current Pocket PC (the Jornada 548 believe it or not). I still think it was one of the best Pocket PC's ever developed (even with the problems that were documented at the time). HP did a hell of a job making a beautiful, fully functional, professional looking Pocket PC. If someone came up to me today and said "The 548 was flawed, we should get our money back", I would respond with: Go away.......

I still think we are going to encounter problems with devices as early adapters, it's just the nature of the beast. If you want to buy software/hardware guaranteed to be free of defects, keep your wallet in you pocket, it's not going to happen.....

Just my .02 (again)

Steve

[TomB]

This all started as a discussion on Brighthand with lots of feedback. Much of that asking these people to lay off for the obvious reasons. I wonder how long it is going to take a predatory law firm's class action clerk to find this URL? Since there are over a million units at issue here you can almost see the $$$$ flashing in red out there in legal-land.

Jason, says he has mixed feelings about this - I outright hate this for what it is and the ruin it could cause if the lawyers latch on. And by the way, what exactly is this? Maybe ten core guys who had real problems with mostly the 3850. Yeah - about $5,000 worth of hardware. When they couldn't get results through customer service this was their solution. Of course what they don't seem to realize is that if they succeed with a major settlement - the next ten years of bright ideas and brilliant innovations will go unfunded unless government picks them up. Who is going to fund something with hundreds of millions in research and start-up costs when all it takes are a dozen Brighthanders to chop your financial legs off? This sucks!

[Chairman Clench]

Wow.....

This site really tries to address all of the issues with the Ipaq. However, since they are also laying blame to Microsoft, maybe they should just use the petition to reflect all Pocket PC's. I mean, the Jornada is not perfect, neither is Toshiba, symbol, etc.

As a matter of fact, how can they hope to be compensated for faulty products when the hardware manufacturer can blame the software company and vice-versa (Talk about an endless loop).....

I honestly don't think we will ever find a tech product (especially as early adapters) that we are 100% satisfied with.......

Just my .02

Steve

On the site, the petition divides the issues into 4 categories:

1. Issues specific to the 36xx/37xx series of iPAQs
2. Issues specific to the 38xx series of iPAQs
3. Issues with the PPC2000 OS
4. Issues with the PPC2002 OS

The petition also specifically states that the signers would like for HP/Compaq to fix all the non-OS related issues. The reason the OS issues are listed is because they further demonstrate reduced functionality of these devices.

Everyone who was involved in creating the petition has tried to resolve their issues with HP/Compaq to no avail. We are hoping that the petition will attract the attention of the HP executive team and give them a kick in the you-know-where to help us. If they also are able to let Microsoft know about the OS problems all the better.

Thanks for participating in the discussion.

[Chairman Clench]

And by the way, what exactly is this? Maybe ten core guys who had real problems with mostly the 3850. Yeah - about $5,000 worth of hardware. When they couldn't get results through customer service this was their solution.

I can tell with absolute certainty that there are A LOT more than 10 people. When the results of the petition are tallied, we will see exactly how many... but already it is A LOT more than 10.

I also still don't buy into your theory about this ruining the PocketPC industry or HP/Compaq. I will use Intel as an example of how a company can recall or replace a product....

When the very first Pentium came out (60mhz) there was a bug in it that MIGHT have caused a processing computation error. The likelyhood of most users experiencing the bug were remote. However, Intel immediately RECALLED the flawed processors. But, they took it one step further. Since the computers with the flawed chips were still functional in most cases, they let you continue using your computer until you received the new processor. They also PAID THE LABOR of a local shop to replace the processor. You then mailed the defective one back.

Has Intel been driven out of the processor business because of the recall? No.

Has Intel stopped innovating? No.

Did Intel exit the CPU market? No.

Did Intel lay off thousands of employees as a result of that recall? No.

Did the recall cost them money? Yes.

Was it as much as HP/Compaq will lose by doing what we ask? I bet it was more.

However, it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Consumers paid the money in good faith to Intel for a working product. Even though most of them would have gone through life never experiencing the bug, Intel still DID THE RIGHT THING by taking care of it AND minimized the inconvenience the users would experience.

To this day, I am a devout Intel customer because of the way they handled that situation. They made a mistake, they corrected it, and they resolved the user side of it. When you make a mistake, it is your responsbility to fix it. HP/Compaq has been shirking this responsibility. We are simply asking them to make good on these products and FIX THEM for the people who are having problems.

I fail to see how that can be wrong. They released something that doesn't always work correctly, and we are asking them to fix their mistakes for those users having problems.

[Chairman Clench]

While I am thankful someone is taking this stand and pointing out to Compaq/HP that we iPaq owners are not very happy with the products and the sometimes lacksidaisy fixes, when I read the above, the main thought that went thru my head was

"gee, don't buy much software, do these guys?"



Actually, I buy lots of software. I have NEVER had as many problems with a product as I have had with my iPAQ 3850.



The fact is, the entire computer industry, or at least the software side of things has made us all very accepting of the amount of bugs and poor or shoddy coding that is allowed to go through the dev stage to a final product.



You are correct and this is a great point.



That's just one example. We're so used to software companies either ignoring bugs or playing spinnarooni with the terminology (it isn't a bug, it's a feature!) that is it any real surprise to expect anything different from the iPaq and its hardware issues or implementation of the OS?



Again, you are correct, however it doesn't make it right. Somewhere, sometime, someone is going to have to make a stand. We are making it here. Compaq should have been able to deliver a better product with the 38xx series iPAQs. I owned a 3650 and then bought a 3850. The 3650 was a much better product.

No one is looking for perfection, we just want working devices that do what HP/Compaq told us they would.



We've let various software companies get away with bugs for so long (Microsoft and Corel are at the top of that heap) that in many ways, the poor performance of the iPaqs is in some ways our own doing... companies don't have the complete impetus to release 100% bug free and "works as promised" software and hardware... because they don't have to. We'll buy it anyway.

Mark

I understand and agree that consumers have caused this cycle. It has to stop, though. Personally, when a product doesn't work correctly, I return it. Unfortunately, my iPAQ didn't start having problems until after the return period had expired.



what makes us compaq iPaq customers so special that we believe we should be singled out as a special group that should get new machines with new OS at no charge or cost?



The petition doesn't ask for a new machine with new OS at no charge or cost. It asks for HP/Compaq to committ to fix the machines through hardware repairs, software updates, or hardware replacement, so they do what they promised they would. If they can't make them work correctly, then we are asking for a refund so we can go buy a different PPC. No one mentioned that we want new machines for free.

Ironically, some of the biggest critics of the petition have said "We won't sign it, but if you get Compaq to give us all 39xxs that would be fine." That's not what we are trying to do. We just want working 38xxs.

Thank you for taking the time to participate in the discussion.

[Chairman Clench]

Okay, I'm getting more curious whether the 38xx really is such a bad machine. This is everything the site says about the 36xx and 37xx series. I'll add comments from my experience with my 3660's and I invite others to do the same.

1. Dust or tiny glass fragments collect underneath the screen of these devices. This is a result of improper manufacturing practice. The dust continues to accumulate and impairs the user’s ability to clearly see the screen.

--> Apparantly a common problem found on discussion forums. Haven't had any dust issues what so ever myself.

2. The speaker will randomly stop working on many of these devices.

--> No problem here

3. The speaker demonstrates a “popping” noise when a sound or audio file begins to play.

--> Happens sometimes, not very often.

4. User backlight settings are not remembered by the device and reset to the factory default randomly.

--> I've noticed this a couple of times, rather annoying although not rendering the device 'defective'.

5. The navigation disk will randomly get stuck in a direction causing uncontrollable scrolling in that direction. The navigation disk does not get physically stuck, the directional command gets stuck.

--> No problem here

6. Occasionally, the iPAQ Today screen will stop refreshing. Images from previously opened programs will remain on the screen and the typical Today screen images (such as Calendar appointments, Tasks, etc.) will not display.

--> No problem here

7. The battery of these devices may completely drain overnight even if the device has a full charge and the device is not in use. This causes all data and programs stored in RAM to be deleted.

--> I have noticed that battery life indeed is decreasing after alot of charges. I thought this was common for batteries that after alot of charges they lose about 20% of their capacity. Draining overnight without use is weird though and I haven't had that problem.

8. These devices will randomly become stuck in an endless loop which prevents the device from moving beyond the “alignment” screen.

--> No problem here.
9. These devices are unpredictably unreliable when connected to a host PC via a USB cradle or cable connection.

--> Unreliable? What do they mean with this? Does it start attacking people at random or something ? ;-)

10. The iPAQ cradle does not always make solid contact with the handheld device due to the way it was designed.

--> No problem here

11. The stylus does not always eject due to a poor design of the ejection system.

--> I thought normally the stylus lock got broken so that ejection would happen when you didn't want it (had this problem with my first 3660)

12. Power button slips inside the unit so it is no longer visible in the hole.

--> No problem here

13. The hard reset cover may break off completely or fail to stay closed.

--> No problem here, is this only for people who use their hard reset button every week or so ? I've need my hard reset button two times untill now, so I can't see how that can break the cover.

14. The power button may completely fail to operate the device.

--> No probleme here

15. The digitizer becomes misaligned and will not recognize stylus taps in the correct location even after the user attempts to re-calibrate the digitizer.

--> Heard about this problem on forums, haven't had this problem myself.

16. Activesync connections to a host computer suffer from a variety of problems including only syncing once before forcing a reboot to sync additional times, failure to sync at all, and the random loss of Activesync partnerships.

--> Can we blame this on compaq ? Once in a while I need to open taskmanager, kill activesync and then start it again. Is this really a compaq problem?


Anywayz, I was wondering if all the problems that were listed (and I don't have) are common problems. Do people really frequently have those problems and are the 36xx 37xx and 38xx really bad machines? Or are the problems that are listed more exceptions than rule ?

Glad to hear from your experience.

Ivan

Thanks for participating in the discussion.

On the website, we state in the FAQ that not all iPAQs suffer from these issues. Part of the reason for the petition is that we are trying to determine how many users are indeed having problems with their iPAQs.

I can tell you that all the issues listed in the petition have been documented as affecting multiple users. Many of the issues are even admitted to by HP/Compaq.

I hope that helps. Thanks again.

[Chairman Clench]

if i were them, i'd place a link to each software update that addresses each "bug" they could not only draw attention to the old "bugs" but help people get the latest software. most of what they're listing is old news and has been fixed in one way or another.

I would be very interested in knowing which issues you are referring to. We tried very hard to make sure that the issues listed were current.

Some issues HP/Compaq have claimed are fixed have not been for all users. Some may be fixed for the non-BT iPAQs when the new ROM is out, but it isn't yet. Some issues like the backlight have been fixed for some users, but others have sent theirs in for repair and are still having the problem.

You are welcome to send any information regarding accuracy of the petition to [email protected]. If there are indeed inaccuracies, we will most definately make the appropriate changes.

Thank you for your help.

[Chairman Clench]

Quote from their site :
Instead, HP/Compaq chose to continue producing and selling defective products with the 37xx and 38xx series iPAQs. As a result, all three series of color iPAQs suffer from serious issues rendering them defective.
/End quote

I really don't get this, I've had two 3660's until now (the first was replace under carepaq warranty because the paint got scrached up bad) and I haven't found any defects yet that render the device unusable. I also haven't gotten any dust until now , so I'm wondering, are the 36xx and 37xx really problem children or is the 38xx the only device that truly suffers from difficulties ?

Thank you for participating in the discussion.

We do not state in the petition that the issues render the devices unusable. We do claim that HP/Compaq promised that some things would work that don't and also that the issues listed reduce the functionality of these devices.

Some users would argue that certain issues do constitute the device being rendered unusable, but that is a subjective judgement. We tried in the petition to create a comprehensive list of issues to present to HP/Compaq.

Thanks again.

[pt]

I would be very interested in knowing which issues you are referring to. We tried very hard to make sure that the issues listed were current. Thank you for your help.

doesn't really matter. it seems like you could provide links to the updates to the units, most people don't know where they're at, without going through issue by issue listed on your site there are many that are fixed with the updates, perhaps a link somewhere could help some folks, maybe, maybe not, it's what i would do.

if i had 4 hours to go through your list and point to each issue and which update fixes it, i would, but that's not going to happen this week.

also, asking people for the serial number for verification purposes along with their names most likely won't attract people to sign the petition, it could be why there's only 11 people now. i don't think i'd ever give that information to anyone but the oem. same reason i wouldn't email you my dell serivce tag, etc...

cheers,
pt

[TomB]

Clench - I am not talking about supporters when this is finished - but the CORE number who started the original thread. Also if you don't think this has the capacity to seriously damage this industry - you have never tried to market a piece of new technology yourself or dealt with class action lawyers. You have no clue what you are starting or the ramifications for the million plus PPC users. For the most part, those are people who are amazed with a class of device that didn't even exist a few years ago - other than in Dick Tracy.

[Jason Dunn]

When the very first Pentium came out (60mhz) there was a bug in it that MIGHT have caused a processing computation error. The likelyhood of most users experiencing the bug were remote. However, Intel immediately RECALLED the flawed processors.

Actually, that's not exactly what happened (I happened to use this example in my thesis and did quite a bit of research on it). Intel basically ignored the problem until public and industry pressure forced them to fix it - but if left to their own devices, they wouldn't have done anything.

[jjjwicks]

:roll:

The icon says it all.

[farnold]

How good they started their web site - finally! Jason, I just hope that you guys at PocketPCThoughts will have an eye if these kind of comments continue to get out of control in your forum. IMO this sort of discussions do not belong in a serious forum.

I'm absolutely against this step. It's childish. It really surprises me that they are not addressing the sun as well, as she is responsible for a worse than expected visibility... Anyway, but seriously:

Either they have a case. Then they should talk to HP and if they don't get what they think they deserve they can always sue HP. Good luck!

Or they don't have a case and just collect they unhappiness and dissatisfaction that the device they paid for does not deliver to their expectations. So, OK, don't buy them anymore and get a different brand the next time. Nobody forces you to buy an IPAQ - it's your own choice. And next time - make sure you know what you get and don't just loffow benchmark reviews.

Should they however be seriously interested to solve their problems - that's not the way to do it. They are giving away their chances to easily.

[jeffmckean]

Usually when someone comes up with a petition it means one of two things:

1. They're not really into reality.
2. They have an outsized sense of justice.

Actually, no. 1 and no. 2 are almost the same.

I understand the frustrations with some of the iPAQ models; but there are lots of frustrations out there with various products; iPAQs are just one.

It may help get HP to notice the problems, but if I were going to go to the trouble of setting up a website for a petition, I think I would focus on an actual problem in the larger world, not whether my Pocket PC works perfectly or not. I love this part of the universe and I love my Pocket PCs, but we aren't saving the world here. Let's keep it in perspective.

As many say, just my two cents. I wish the petition folks much success. It's not the most effective way to get HP to sit up and take notice, but I'm not gonna share my opinion of what WOULD work. :wink:

[Skoobouy]

Gee, why not petition HP/Comaq to keep the Jornada line of Pocket PCs? Sounds like the most reasonable solution to me.

PC Magazine just did a big service and support poll (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,334508,00.asp) in which the HP Jornada did much better than the Compaq iPaq. Maybe HP/Compaq should look at customer satisfaction instead of raw sales and reconsider their choice of the iPaq as their flagship PDA.

I don't want to bash the iPaq--I'm just saying that squishing the Jornada series in its favor was really dumb. Kind of like the guy who threw out his BMW because he already has a Mercedes.

The Jornada has virtually none of the problems listed in the petition (which I can say because I have a dust-free unit) and beats out the Casio E200 in useability and stability, the iPaq in size, the Toshiba units in battery life and (in the case of the e300 series) sound output. It is a good machine! It got the highest rating of any Pocket PC in the PCMag poll--just the same grade as Palm, as a matter of fact--B-.

Getting rid of the Jornada was just poor poor judgement. I signed the petition just because I think bringing back the Jornada would solve most of those issues in one fell swoop.

...

Hmm, I was reading more of the PC Magazine article, and I came across this interesting tidbit about HP/Compaq laptops:

Ironically, HP has far better grades than Compaq, though the HP Omnibook line will be put to rest in favor of Compaq's better-known brands as the two companies merge their product lines.

Aye, same tune, different product line. They're really mishandling this merger. Compaq consistently received some of the worst scores in the whole test, but the HP/Compaq conglomerate is destroying HP's quality product lines in favor of Compaq's crap. Yeesh.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go so far to criticize Compaq--I understand the iPaq is still an impressive machine. My pop couldn't be happier with his 3630. But even being as objective as possible, something smells really really bad about this merger business.
[/quote]

[Marc Zimmermann]

I would be very interested in knowing which issues you are referring to. We tried very hard to make sure that the issues listed were current.

>The issues affecting the 36xx and 37xx series include, but are
>not limited to:
>
>5. The navigation disk will randomly get stuck in a direction causing
>uncontrollable scrolling in that direction. The navigation disk does
>not get physically stuck, the directional command gets stuck.

That software problem was fixed in the H3600 ROM way back in the 1.69
release. I haven't seen it since, including the Pocket PC 2002 upgrade.

>Issues present in the PocketPC 2000 operating system include,
>but are not limited to the following:
>
>5. The Pocket PC always turns itself on at midnight. If another
>program such as media player is running when the unit was
>turned off, it comes to life and starts playing the media file which
>results in the device staying powered on and running down the
>battery. This creates a potential for data loss.

Annonying? Yes. Bug? No, it's well documented (in the Microsoft
Konowledge Base) that this is by design.

>6. Microsoft Reader users were promised the future ability to
>read content encoded with DRM5 technology. This promise has
>yet to be fulfilled.

It's been known that this will never happen for a year now.

>Issues present in the PocketPC 2002 operating system include,
>but are not limited to the following:
>
>2. Repeating alarms have been removed from the PocketPC 2002
>Operating System resulting in decreased reminder functionality.

It was a disputable design change, but still a design change. Can I also
complain about a PowerPoint viewer not being part of the operating system? Bugs are -technically speaking- things that don't work as
designed.

>4. Pocket Internet Explorer reports the screen size as 320 x 240.
>The PC reports 640 x 480, 800 x 600, etc. It should report 240 x 320.

I wasn't aware that there are many web sites that actually make use
of this value *and* are optimized for small screens?

>7. When entering information into contacts using the "block recognizer,
>" the "abc" does not change to "Abc" when auto-capitalization occurs.
>It still displays "abc" and yet the letter you enter is automatically
>capitalized. Furthermore, users cannot cancel the auto-capitalization by
>using the graffiti upstroke, the only way to get a lower-case letter is to
>enter the letter twice and then delete the first one.

The capitalization issue exists for all input methods.

>8. You cannot access FTP sites (either through IE or through WiniNet)
>that require username/password. This worked in Pocket PC 2000, and
>always transmits anonymous now on Pocket PC 2002.

Fixed for WinINet in EUU2, Pocket IE still defaults to anonymous access.

>9. The Inbox will not delete e-mail from POP3 servers correctly.

Would you prefer that it deleted messages that it shouldn't? ;-)

>14. Using embedded Visual Basic programmers cannot access the
>POOM libraries using the PocketPC 2002 environment. The programs
>just exit with no message or anything else immediately upon issuing
>the POOM Login command.

POOM fixes were in EUU1.

>15. Connection Manager, in dialup connections, reverses the DNS
>numbers in the display

Fixed in EUU1.

>16. The Regional Settings displays the Positive Currency and Negative
>Currency incorrectly on the display.

Jeez. Those are only samples!

>17. Users cannot copy a file larger than 16 MB to the internal ram
>even if when there is more free ram available than 16 MB.

Most likely caused by ActiveSync backwards compatibility with older
devices since file size limit was moved beyond 16MB in Windows CE 3.0.

>19. When running multiple applications, the system performance may
>diminish. You may experience sluggish performance or delayed response
>time to screen taps up to and including lock-ups on the device. This is
>supposed to be corrected by the "smart minimize" feature of the
>PocketPC 2002 Operating System. In fact, this does not work.

Application start/shutdown hasn't changed with Smart Minimize, it's been
like this since Palm-size PC days.

[schergr]

http://www.ipaqpetition.com/

We've seen discussion threads kicking around the problems with the iPAQ, but it seems that someone has decided to take it to the next level by creating this web site. I have mixed feelings about a site like this, but I have to admit that the sheer number of patches and issues with the iPAQ is clearly disproportionate compared to other Pocket PCs on the market.

"Thank you for visiting this page. We have created this website to highlight the problems many users have had with the products known as the iPAQ PocketPC. This includes the 3600, 3700, and 3800 series of products. As consumers, we work very hard for our money. If a company releases a product that does not function as promised, the product is defective. It is then that company's responsibility to remedy the situation by fixing or replacing the product. The end result must be that consumers are provided with a product that functions as promised." In the case of the iPAQ series of PocketPCs HP/Compaq have failed to do so."

It should probably be noted, as most people here are probably aware, that this is likely because the IPAQ's are the most widely used devices, not to mention the one most commonly used by tech geeks like us so therefore it stands to reason that people have flushed out the most problems. THe other point is that fortunately Compaq has the resources to fix these problems. I wonder if the Toshiba is recognizing enough revenue just yet to put some serious resource behind it. IMHO...of course.

- Greg

[Chairman Clench]

I would be very interested in knowing which issues you are referring to. We tried very hard to make sure that the issues listed were current. Thank you for your help.

doesn't really matter. it seems like you could provide links to the updates to the units, most people don't know where they're at, without going through issue by issue listed on your site there are many that are fixed with the updates, perhaps a link somewhere could help some folks, maybe, maybe not, it's what i would do.

if i had 4 hours to go through your list and point to each issue and which update fixes it, i would, but that's not going to happen this week.

also, asking people for the serial number for verification purposes along with their names most likely won't attract people to sign the petition, it could be why there's only 11 people now. i don't think i'd ever give that information to anyone but the oem. same reason i wouldn't email you my dell serivce tag, etc...

cheers,
pt

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

I will look into adding links to the Compaq support page where there are patches and such. That is a great idea.

I understand that you have limited time, but if you notice anything that is inaccurate, we would appreciate knowing about it so we can fix it.

The serial number is also a good point, but we wanted to maintain a form of integrity. There really isn't a whole lot someone could do with the serial number since HP has never published a list of who owns what.

Thanks again.

[Chairman Clench]

I would be very interested in knowing which issues you are referring to. We tried very hard to make sure that the issues listed were current.

>The issues affecting the 36xx and 37xx series include, but are
>not limited to:
>
>5. The navigation disk will randomly get stuck in a direction causing
>uncontrollable scrolling in that direction. The navigation disk does
>not get physically stuck, the directional command gets stuck.

That software problem was fixed in the H3600 ROM way back in the 1.69
release. I haven't seen it since, including the Pocket PC 2002 upgrade.

>Issues present in the PocketPC 2000 operating system include,
>but are not limited to the following:
>
>5. The Pocket PC always turns itself on at midnight. If another
>program such as media player is running when the unit was
>turned off, it comes to life and starts playing the media file which
>results in the device staying powered on and running down the
>battery. This creates a potential for data loss.

Annonying? Yes. Bug? No, it's well documented (in the Microsoft
Konowledge Base) that this is by design.

>6. Microsoft Reader users were promised the future ability to
>read content encoded with DRM5 technology. This promise has
>yet to be fulfilled.

It's been known that this will never happen for a year now.

>Issues present in the PocketPC 2002 operating system include,
>but are not limited to the following:
>
>2. Repeating alarms have been removed from the PocketPC 2002
>Operating System resulting in decreased reminder functionality.

It was a disputable design change, but still a design change. Can I also
complain about a PowerPoint viewer not being part of the operating system? Bugs are -technically speaking- things that don't work as
designed.

>4. Pocket Internet Explorer reports the screen size as 320 x 240.
>The PC reports 640 x 480, 800 x 600, etc. It should report 240 x 320.

I wasn't aware that there are many web sites that actually make use
of this value *and* are optimized for small screens?

>7. When entering information into contacts using the "block recognizer,
>" the "abc" does not change to "Abc" when auto-capitalization occurs.
>It still displays "abc" and yet the letter you enter is automatically
>capitalized. Furthermore, users cannot cancel the auto-capitalization by
>using the graffiti upstroke, the only way to get a lower-case letter is to
>enter the letter twice and then delete the first one.

The capitalization issue exists for all input methods.

>8. You cannot access FTP sites (either through IE or through WiniNet)
>that require username/password. This worked in Pocket PC 2000, and
>always transmits anonymous now on Pocket PC 2002.

Fixed for WinINet in EUU2, Pocket IE still defaults to anonymous access.

>9. The Inbox will not delete e-mail from POP3 servers correctly.

Would you prefer that it deleted messages that it shouldn't? ;-)

>14. Using embedded Visual Basic programmers cannot access the
>POOM libraries using the PocketPC 2002 environment. The programs
>just exit with no message or anything else immediately upon issuing
>the POOM Login command.

POOM fixes were in EUU1.

>15. Connection Manager, in dialup connections, reverses the DNS
>numbers in the display

Fixed in EUU1.

>16. The Regional Settings displays the Positive Currency and Negative
>Currency incorrectly on the display.

Jeez. Those are only samples!

>17. Users cannot copy a file larger than 16 MB to the internal ram
>even if when there is more free ram available than 16 MB.

Most likely caused by ActiveSync backwards compatibility with older
devices since file size limit was moved beyond 16MB in Windows CE 3.0.

>19. When running multiple applications, the system performance may
>diminish. You may experience sluggish performance or delayed response
>time to screen taps up to and including lock-ups on the device. This is
>supposed to be corrected by the "smart minimize" feature of the
>PocketPC 2002 Operating System. In fact, this does not work.

Application start/shutdown hasn't changed with Smart Minimize, it's been
like this since Palm-size PC days.

Thank you for taking the time to point these items out. We were made aware yesterday of some of them and are in the process of making the applicable changes.

FYI the petition doesn't say the word "bug" anywhere, it uses the word issue. Even things that are intentional design decisions but reduce functionality can be considered an issue.

Thanks again for your help.

[Chairman Clench]

THe other point is that fortunately Compaq has the resources to fix these problems
- Greg

That's all we are asking. :D

[Chairman Clench]

Gee, why not petition HP/Comaq to keep the Jornada line of Pocket PCs? Sounds like the most reasonable solution to me.

PC Magazine just did a big service and support poll (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,334508,00.asp) in which the HP Jornada did much better than the Compaq iPaq. Maybe HP/Compaq should look at customer satisfaction instead of raw sales and reconsider their choice of the iPaq as their flagship PDA.

I don't want to bash the iPaq--I'm just saying that squishing the Jornada series in its favor was really dumb. Kind of like the guy who threw out his BMW because he already has a Mercedes.

The Jornada has virtually none of the problems listed in the petition (which I can say because I have a dust-free unit) and beats out the Casio E200 in useability and stability, the iPaq in size, the Toshiba units in battery life and (in the case of the e300 series) sound output. It is a good machine! It got the highest rating of any Pocket PC in the PCMag poll--just the same grade as Palm, as a matter of fact--B-.

Getting rid of the Jornada was just poor poor judgement. I signed the petition just because I think bringing back the Jornada would solve most of those issues in one fell swoop.

...

Hmm, I was reading more of the PC Magazine article, and I came across this interesting tidbit about HP/Compaq laptops:

Ironically, HP has far better grades than Compaq, though the HP Omnibook line will be put to rest in favor of Compaq's better-known brands as the two companies merge their product lines.

Aye, same tune, different product line. They're really mishandling this merger. Compaq consistently received some of the worst scores in the whole test, but the HP/Compaq conglomerate is destroying HP's quality product lines in favor of Compaq's crap. Yeesh.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go so far to criticize Compaq--I understand the iPaq is still an impressive machine. My pop couldn't be happier with his 3630. But even being as objective as possible, something smells really really bad about this merger business.
[/quote]

To tell you the truth, I agree with you. If I could get a Jornada that didn't collect dust under the screen I'd be a happy camper. I think it was the best of the PPC2002 machines... except for the dust.

Thanks for yor comments.

[Chairman Clench]

When the very first Pentium came out (60mhz) there was a bug in it that MIGHT have caused a processing computation error. The likelyhood of most users experiencing the bug were remote. However, Intel immediately RECALLED the flawed processors.

Actually, that's not exactly what happened (I happened to use this example in my thesis and did quite a bit of research on it). Intel basically ignored the problem until public and industry pressure forced them to fix it - but if left to their own devices, they wouldn't have done anything.

Thanks for the correction!

Even so, that really increases the point of the petition. Maybe HP/Compaq executives are unaware of the number of issues with the iPAQ. Maybe the petition will encourage them to address these issues and satisfy the customers who are having problems with them.

Thanks again.

[Chairman Clench]

Clench - I am not talking about supporters when this is finished - but the CORE number who started the original thread. Also if you don't think this has the capacity to seriously damage this industry - you have never tried to market a piece of new technology yourself or dealt with class action lawyers. You have no clue what you are starting or the ramifications for the million plus PPC users. For the most part, those are people who are amazed with a class of device that didn't even exist a few years ago - other than in Dick Tracy.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Although I respect your opinion and understand your point, myself and quite a few other people really don't know what to do? Should we just accept that we wasted $600 or more?

If you have another suggestion as to how we can get working iPAQs, please let me know. Mine has been in 3 times for repair, all patches have been applied, and I have contacted Tech Support multiple times. If you know of another way to get it fixed, please let me know.

[Chairman Clench]

Usually when someone comes up with a petition it means one of two things:

1. They're not really into reality.
2. They have an outsized sense of justice.

Actually, no. 1 and no. 2 are almost the same.

I understand the frustrations with some of the iPAQ models; but there are lots of frustrations out there with various products; iPAQs are just one.

It may help get HP to notice the problems, but if I were going to go to the trouble of setting up a website for a petition, I think I would focus on an actual problem in the larger world, not whether my Pocket PC works perfectly or not. I love this part of the universe and I love my Pocket PCs, but we aren't saving the world here. Let's keep it in perspective.

As many say, just my two cents. I wish the petition folks much success. It's not the most effective way to get HP to sit up and take notice, but I'm not gonna share my opinion of what WOULD work. :wink:

Actually, I'd love to know what your opinion is of what would work. :lol:

Seriously, though, maybe nothing will happen as a result of the petition. Maybe we are living in a dream world expecting them to provide us with a working device. Maybe it is wasted effort.

All we are doing is trying. I'd rather say I tried than just sitting back and complaining about how bad my iPAQ is. We are actually trying to do something to resolve the problem since sending them in for repair didn't fix it.

Thanks for your comments!

[Chairman Clench]

How good they started their web site - finally! Jason, I just hope that you guys at PocketPCThoughts will have an eye if these kind of comments continue to get out of control in your forum. IMO this sort of discussions do not belong in a serious forum.

I'm absolutely against this step. It's childish. It really surprises me that they are not addressing the sun as well, as she is responsible for a worse than expected visibility... Anyway, but seriously:

Either they have a case. Then they should talk to HP and if they don't get what they think they deserve they can always sue HP. Good luck!

Or they don't have a case and just collect they unhappiness and dissatisfaction that the device they paid for does not deliver to their expectations. So, OK, don't buy them anymore and get a different brand the next time. Nobody forces you to buy an IPAQ - it's your own choice. And next time - make sure you know what you get and don't just loffow benchmark reviews.

Should they however be seriously interested to solve their problems - that's not the way to do it. They are giving away their chances to easily.

Thank you for your comments.

We can definately agree to disagree and I respect your opinion.

However, I'm not really sure that immediately jumping to a class action lawsuit is the right thing to do. We are trying this method first to resolve the situation in good faith.

Instead of bogging down the courts with another lawsuit, we decided to try something else. I really don't think that childish is a fair term to use and your comment about the sun is not really valid at all. Childish would be sitting back complaining and not doing anything about it.

You are welcome to disagree with us. We did not just follow benchmarks. We did research the devices before we purchased them. However, when things that HP/Compaq said would work don't work, they have an obligation to fix them. For many (not all) of us, they haven't met this obligation.

Your attitude seems to be "chalk it up to experience". Many people can afford to buy something like a $600 or $700 PDA, decide it didn't do what they wanted, and just go buy another one. Others of us can't. We paid for the device and we are entitled to one that works the way HP/Compaq said it would.

We are choosing to make HP/Compaq aware of our dissatisfaction and are trying to get them to fix these devices for people who are having problems. That's all. After sending it in for repairs 3 times, applying all the patches, and speaking with tech support multiple times, I'm not sure what else, short of a lawsuit, we should do.

Again, if you have any ideas on how we can get them to fix our devices, I would love to hear them.

Thanks for participating in the discussion.

[JMountford]

The first iPaq I got was a 3635. I was so happy when I was finally able to get one. It was right after September 11th here in America. I think on the 12th actually. I had been waiting for over a month with a raincheck for my local BestBuy to get them in.

When I finally did get it the damng thing had a MAJOR glitch. The Screen WOULD NOT CALIBRATE. It took my wife over a half hour one the calibration screen to get past it and even then the thing was off at least an eight of an inch.

I told Best Buy I wanted to exchange it but now I had to wait yet again for the store to get in a shipment of iPaqs. They go quick in my area. So I waited nearly another month. Then the store got some in. Of course they were under instruction to hold one back for me. I went through the rigormorole of my exchange, dealing with the rude people that comprise a BestBuy "Customer Service" desk. The iPaq had to be checked by a store technician. Of course he found the same thing I did. I made sure he would as I had performed a hard reset and you could not get past the calibration screen.

Well this was not the end of my troubles with the 3635 model as a week or so after getting my exchange the new iPaq was sitting on my desk charging and we went out to dinner. When we arrived home we smeeled electrical components burnning and started looking around. I followed my nose to my shiny new iPaq sitting in its charger. I pulled it off and it was burning hot!! The body of the iPaq had actually warped in back behind the serial connecter! We have no idea why. Well needless to say I called BestBuy to ask if they had any more iPaqs they didn't and again I had to wait . Thankfully it was only a few days this time. Unfortunately there were no 3635's comming in now the 3700 models were out! Well I had allready put in my order for the Windows Pocket PC 2002 Upgrade CD ROM. But I was looking forward to the 3700 model. I called BestBuy and talked with the Wireless departments salespeople explaining the situation. Of course a couple of them knew me by name by now. They said I should have no problem doing a strait across exchange. Well I went in with my defective iPaq. It was a living hell. Customer Service wanted me to pay extra charges and what not even though the devices were the same price. The wench at the counter tried to tell me that I could not exchange the iPaq it was an hour and some odd plus mess. Finaly I paid about 25 bucks and got an iPaq 3765.

I love my iPaq and use it for all kinds of things. I am not a bussiness user which means I find all kinds of uses for my iPaq. Games, Apps, Utilities, Storage, swapping files with people, etc. all kinds of things!

My wifw hates the thing, because of how much I can do with it. I DO NOT use paper anymore!

Well let me tell you. I have dust behind my screen, really bad in the bottom right corner. The Icon on my power button has faded off nearly completely. My internal power will not last fow any longer than two hours and usually not more than one. My screen has scratches and wear, not from abuse but from simply using the stylus. The thing locks up constantly, will not refresh. To top it off I can not get EUU2 to install.

Never the less I love my iPaq. Would I like Compaq to repalce my Screen? Sure I would! Would I like iPaq to give me maybe a credit on the purchase of a new iPaq to replace my current one? Hell yeah I would especially when the newer models are running between 700 and 800 dollars. Can anyone say Laptop? Still I am not about to gripe and whine about my problems. I reset it when needs be I try to take care of it and I am hoping that my wife's computer purchasing loans that her work offers will cover an iPaq. But even if it doesn't it's OK.

Sometimes you just have to be a grown up. Technology glithes. It costs money that's part of life.

[dwprice]

Do you take a bad table at a restaurant? Rudeness of the waiter? A neighbour who always plays loud music? A car you have to take back to the dealer time and again? Paint peeling off your pickup? A house with a cracked foundation? A woman screaming at her child and spanking her in the parking lot? A child slipping a chocolate bar into his pocket without paying?

None of these things seem like all that big a deal unless you're in the middle of it. Depends on the individual, doesn't it? But when someone acts... doesn't everyone benefit?

Corporations spend millions appealing cases to the Supreme Court to fight for their right to advertise tobacco or to have signs in English the same size as signs in French in Quebec or to import explicit gay porn over the border, or to allow lap dancing in strip clubs. Look at Larry Flynn, founder of the porn mag "Penthouse" and his fight for freedom of expression. Or perhaps a less lurid example: Ralph Nader... remember "Unsafe at any speed?"

So a few little guys want to get together and complain about their iPaqs and exercise their democratic right to complain and be heard. Why would people attack this? Why the fear that Compaq will be crushed or the PocketPC will disappear? Why should anyone even care more about a multi-billion dollar company than a bunch of unhappy customers? How do people think that "competition" is supposed to work?

Oh... and since when is it more "manly" and "grown-up" to put up with shoddy service and craftsmanship? Ah, to suffer! It is SO grown-up! Pour me a whiskey in a dirty broken glass! Pass me Russian literature and sell me a British car! For I am.... A MAN!

[Jonathon Watkins]

These people are doing something about a problem they have. That's thier right - and good luck to them. Doing someting is better than doing nothing about it.

[en passant]

um, Cap'n Clench, how exactly are you planning to handle the changes to your petition? I'm not planning on signing your petition in any case, but even if I had been considering it, I would immediately have decided against it upon learning that you intended to change the wording after the petition was posted. No matter what I would never sign any petition that I knew could change after I'd signed it. It destroys the petition's credibility.

If you want to update it or make any other modifications, I think you need to make that very clear on the petition page itself so that signees know that what they're signing today may look different tomorrow. You might also want to keep a careful "version history" publically available on the site.

(sorry, that should read "Chairmen Clench." My apologies. I hope I didn't offend with the accidental misnaming!)

[Chairman Clench]

Do you take a bad table at a restaurant? Rudeness of the waiter? A neighbour who always plays loud music? A car you have to take back to the dealer time and again? Paint peeling off your pickup? A house with a cracked foundation? A woman screaming at her child and spanking her in the parking lot? A child slipping a chocolate bar into his pocket without paying?

None of these things seem like all that big a deal unless you're in the middle of it. Depends on the individual, doesn't it? But when someone acts... doesn't everyone benefit?

Corporations spend millions appealing cases to the Supreme Court to fight for their right to advertise tobacco or to have signs in English the same size as signs in French in Quebec or to import explicit gay porn over the border, or to allow lap dancing in strip clubs. Look at Larry Flynn, founder of the porn mag "Penthouse" and his fight for freedom of expression. Or perhaps a less lurid example: Ralph Nader... remember "Unsafe at any speed?"

So a few little guys want to get together and complain about their iPaqs and exercise their democratic right to complain and be heard. Why would people attack this? Why the fear that Compaq will be crushed or the PocketPC will disappear? Why should anyone even care more about a multi-billion dollar company than a bunch of unhappy customers? How do people think that "competition" is supposed to work?

Oh... and since when is it more "manly" and "grown-up" to put up with shoddy service and craftsmanship? Ah, to suffer! It is SO grown-up! Pour me a whiskey in a dirty broken glass! Pass me Russian literature and sell me a British car! For I am.... A MAN!

Thank you... it is really nice to see someone who "gets it". Your support is appreciated.

[Chairman Clench]

um, Cap'n Clench, how exactly are you planning to handle the changes to your petition? I'm not planning on signing your petition in any case, but even if I were considering it, I would immediately have decided against it upon learning that you intended to change the wording after the petition was posted. No matter what I would never sign any petition that I knew could change after I'd signed it. It destroys the petition's credibility.

If you want to update it or make any other modifications, I think you need to make that very clear on the petition page itself so that signees know that what they're signing today may look different tomorrow. You might also want to keep a careful "version history" publically available on the site.

We will be addressing this issue with the people who have signed the petition. Thank you very much for pointing it out, although we had already planned to address it.

Again, thanks.

[Chairman Clench]

These people are doing something about a problem they have. That's thier right - and good luck to them. Doing someting is better than doing nothing about it.

Thank you also for your support.

[Chairman Clench]

We have passed the 500 signer mark on the petition! This is great considering the site has only been live for 4 days.

Thanks to everyone who has helped!

[Dave Conger]

Just a note, ZDNet UK has posted a response from HP along with their commentary about it:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t271-s2120335,00.html