An official Toshiba response to XScale performance issues

[Jason Dunn]

Pocket PC Thoughts reader Jui-Ting Chen received this email message from Toshiba that was apparently sent out to all registered e740 users: <br /><br />"When we manufactured the e740 we focused on integrating wireless and reducing the price from the former e570 product offering. As such, we are now offering integrated wireless functionality and the latest Xscale processor at a price that is considerably less than the competition. We understand that some software is not optimized to run on the new platform. We will work with the various software manufactures and encourage them to update their product in order to maximize performance by optimizing to the new Xscale platform."<br /><br />Certainly, not what e740 owners were hoping for. The reality is that there is no simple and quick fix. I'm going to try and post my thoughts on this XScale performance issue on Monday - I've been collecting information from all across the web on the subject, and I think you'll find it interesting.<br /><br />Regarding this response from Toshiba, what do you think? Is it enough that they're acknowledging the problem (unlike other OEMs) or should they be doing more?

[Boxster S]

Simply put:

"We pulled you in with marketing, now we have you by the nuts"

[mookie123]

Cynical translation:

... look we gave you cheap crap just like you ask, what else you want? We even throw in integrated wireless. fast software? get real. go somewhere else, it ain't our problem.

--------
This is MMX deja vu. I don't think anybody will bother to do anything about it. There is no urgency to do it. In MMX case at least the gaming industry was pushing it. but Xscale? nothing. Hell, Toshiba only feel to "encourage" software vendors instead of urgently working on a solution at this moment.

who else?

Microsoft? (ehrrr......... we don't feel like fixing it. you expect too much)

Intel? (heck it ain't OUR problem, it's software issues pal ! )

Consumer? (grrrr.....where is that Linux alternative when we need them to prove a point)

well at least it ain't Palm.

[GadgetDave]

At least they admitted it - how long have we seen manufacturers deny there's a problem when the whole world knew?

I'm going to give Toshiba the benefit of the doubt - for a little while ... They want to make a splash in the PPC market, we'll see if they use this issue to gain some loyalty.[/u]

[MobiliT]

#1 Assume there are video and performance issues with the e740.
#2 Assume they will not be fixed overnight and certainly not by one entity.

Weigh this with integrated wireless and the features making this Toshiba offering unique. Ditch the hype, some from industry sources and some from us fans and hobbyists. Examine the facts. Make the choice.

XScale compatibility isn't going to alter the fundamentals of consumer decisions. Since there is no perfect PDA, select whatever is more right for YOU. Bleeding edge requires a cost. Decide if you're willing to pay for it, then make the choice. Buy it. If you dislike it, return it. The sum of all our choices will dictate the industry's future actions. They will respond to how you use, or not use, your wallet.

[RHighley]

Given the amount of bad press that the XScale processor is getting, wouldn't it make sense for Microsoft to recompile the operating system and main apps for the new processor? Given that all XScale processors have flash ROMs, it could then offer downloads of the freshly compiled operating system and apps.

Before I get flamed on this -- I will note that "no, I did not just fall off the turnip cart?"

[Malacandra]

It ain't magic, folks!

If PPC 2002 is optimized for ARM processors, MS has said they don't want to leave everyone in the lurch and left behind by simply upgrading the OS.

On the other hand, Toshiba has honestly admitted the problem. That's a nice gesture and worthy of note.

I think that the fact is has 64MB RAM and integrated wireless at the same price as the now "old" PPC models is quite an accomplishment.

OK, so you can't run video quite so well and your contacts don't open a billionth of second faster like you thought they would. Maybe the tradeoff isn't worth it to you.

Either way, don't ream Toshiba. There are lots of factors between manufacturer and OS designers and software developers.

Everyone needs to chill and stop whining because their $600 toy isn't exactly like they hoped. :roll: Be glad you have food and clothes and shelter.

[pdagal]

I just got a pre-release copy of Pocket DivX for the e740, and it does remarkably better! Rather than dropping triple digit frames per movie, we saw only 2 and 3 frames dropped per movie. I've added the pre-release benchmarks to our e740 review.

Looks like we'll see video improvments faster than we think :o

Probably Toshiba got motivated to share some e740-specific coding info with multimedia developers since consumers rightly called up tech support and ranted.

[farnold]

3 things about it:

XScale PocketPCs are not twice as fast as Strong arm ones - hm, so what? I didn't expect them to be. The new devices like e740 and LOOX are interesting because they offer much more inside than just XScale. Integrated Bluetooth or WiFi with CF and SD slot - that's what make them interesting for me. On the other hand - the new IPAQ 39xx offers nothing we haven't seen before and less than the others. That's why I don't look for it at all.

Shame on TOSHIBA. They wanted to be the first on the market and they did. But they obviously did so leaving testing out. That's what their statement sounds to me: "Sorry, we didn't know before either." Possibly not a manufacturer I can expect to deliver really tested devices... Even worse - with their speed to push the first device into the market they force others to do the same - and optimisation is still not on the horizon.

Shame on INTEL and MICROSOFT. As if they work together for the first time... they should have known at first - probably more than 6 months ago. And they didn't bother at all to do anything. They wasted time and efford of others who had to find out what MS/INTEL should have known and told long ago. Arrogance and ignorance at its peak.

3 conclusions:

Some hardware manufacturer offer substantial better or complete new devices - not just a new engine in the old car. They continued developping for the PocketPC platform. MS didn't. Maybe they don't believe in the future of their offering in this sector.

MS bought some years for PALM and others, that go a non-MS way like SHARP. Not because their products are close to beat the PocketPC at all. But MS justifies that it's more important to have an alternative - today and tomorrow.

The market of devices in a price range sub 800 US$ needs other players than MS/INTEL. NOKIA, ERICSSON, MOTOROLA, SIEMENS and others know much more about this market than MS/INTEL ever will.

[lawnman]

I for one could live with only slighty better performance from the Xscale devices, IF this processor was sucking down LESS of my battery. Has anyone done battery tests on these suckers? Amongst all the hype, that was one item xscale would supposedly shine at.

[entropy1980]

I for one could live with only slighty better performance from the Xscale devices, IF this processor was sucking down LESS of my battery. Has anyone done battery tests on these suckers? Amongst all the hype, that was one item xscale would supposedly shine at.

Screens draw a majority ofbattery power so any improvements would go virtually unnoticed until we get OLED in a PPC.

[pdagal]

The iPAQ 370 has shown remarkably better battery life.

The e740 battery lasts about as long as the e310 using them for the same things (mix of gaming with both demanding and simple games, video playback, contacts managment, word processing). It lasts about 3 hours per charge for those kinds of uses. If you don't do gaming or much multimedia you'd get better battery life. That's with WiFi OFF. Turn on WiFi and it lasts LESS than two hours when surfing with Pocket IE for about 30 to 40 minutes, and using it for non-wireless tasks. This kind of performance has been consistent over two weeks of daily heavy use. We'll benchmark the battery soon.


I for one could live with only slighty better performance from the Xscale devices, IF this processor was sucking down LESS of my battery. Has anyone done battery tests on these suckers? Amongst all the hype, that was one item xscale would supposedly shine at.

[Take1]

Frankly, Toshiba was passing the buck on the weak perfomance of their new PDA off on eveyone else. Is is wrong? Sorta. They have Toshiba specific problems which are not related solely to xScale and a general pathetic performance problem directly related to xScale. Toshiba should take the blame on what is they screwed-up and then put MAJOR FREAKING PRESSURE on MS and Intel to fix THEIR screwups.

Ulitmately this is an MS and Intel problem. MS was absolutely and completley negligent in their integration of xScale from day 1. They blew it big time and will suffer SERIOUSLY for their apathy and ignorance. Intel will likewise have their POS xScale product which seems to share similarities with the initial Transmetta processor -- Underpreformance -- at providing less bang for the buck.

[Steven Cedrone]

I know the Xscale Pocket PC's have some serious problems, But I look at it like this:

I skipped upgrading to Pocket PC 2002 (actually, that's not true; I bought a Jornada and returned it shortly thereafter), I still use my 548. I am still going to buy an Xscale and I really do like the Toshiba. I know there is no appreciable improvement over the Strongarm devices, but there is when you go from first generation Pocket PC's. Just the hardware specs alone have me convinced that this is the device for me. With a little luck, Microsoft, Toshiba, and third party developers will squeeze the performance we were promised out of these devices.

I guess I am lucky that I don't own a Strongarm Pocket PC, it lets me look at these devices objectively. I see these as a good and necessary evolution in the PDA and specifically, the Pocket PC. I think that once the hardware is out there (and it is, now), the software will be written/rewritten/recompiled to take advantage of it.........

Just My .02

Steve

[ThomasC22]

Frankly, Toshiba was passing the buck on the weak perfomance of their new PDA off on eveyone else. Is is wrong? Sorta. They have Toshiba specific problems which are not related solely to xScale and a general pathetic performance problem directly related to xScale. Toshiba should take the blame on what is they screwed-up and then put MAJOR FREAKING PRESSURE on MS and Intel to fix THEIR screwups.


I don't know, to me, this is the best marketing we've seen so far regarding this issue. I mean, Microsoft and Intel basically pointed at eachother and said "Its his fault!".

Here, Toshiba is, in my opinion, doing all the right things. They didn't pass the buck they said "We understand that some software is not optimized to run on the new platform. We will work with the various software manufactures and encourage them to update their product in order to maximize performance by optimizing to the new Xscale platform,"

They didn't say it was anyone elses fault and they did say that THEY would try to do something about it (as opposed to "well, the other guy needs to fix it" line that MS and Intel gave).

I'm pretty happy with this response for now, my e740 isn't that bad and I'm ok with giving up a little performance to have built in Wi-Fi.

and think about this, they may be selling crap (e.g. the xscale processor) but at least they aren't charging $700 for their crap :)

[entropy1980]

The iPAQ 370 has shown remarkably better battery life.

The e740 battery lasts about as long as the e310 using them for the same things (mix of gaming with both demanding and simple games, video playback, contacts managment, word processing). It lasts about 3 hours per charge for those kinds of uses. If you don't do gaming or much multimedia you'd get better battery life. That's with WiFi OFF. Turn on WiFi and it lasts LESS than two hours when surfing with Pocket IE for about 30 to 40 minutes, and using it for non-wireless tasks. This kind of performance has been consistent over two weeks of daily heavy use. We'll benchmark the battery soon.


I for one could live with only slighty better performance from the Xscale devices, IF this processor was sucking down LESS of my battery. Has anyone done battery tests on these suckers? Amongst all the hype, that was one item xscale would supposedly shine at.



That's because the battery is freaking huge ! the Toshiba has only a 1000mah battery!

[Pony99CA]

3 things about it:

XScale PocketPCs are not twice as fast as Strong arm ones - hm, so what? I didn't expect them to be. The new devices like e740 and LOOX are interesting because they offer much more inside than just XScale. Integrated Bluetooth or WiFi with CF and SD slot - that's what make them interesting for me. On the other hand - the new IPAQ 39xx offers nothing we haven't seen before and less than the others. That's why I don't look for it at all.


Nothing new? Transflective screen, built-in remote control, 48MB Flash ROM, SDIO. True, they may not be new in the whole PDA world, but they are new in the iPAQ or Pocket PC world.

Let's look at what you mentioned.

* Integrated Bluethooth -- Done in the iPAQ 3870.
* Integrated WiFi -- Maybe new (but wireless in general certainly isn't).
* CF and SD support on one device -- Done in the Casio 200 and the Toshiba e570.

So the e740 doesn't have much that we haven't seen before, either. Why do people rip on HP/Compaq for not being innovative in the 39xx so much? Without the innovations of Compaq and the iPAQ, the Pocket PC world may not have gotten much farther than the Palm-Sized PCs.

Steve

[DaleReeck]

3 things about it:
* Integrated Bluethooth -- Done in the iPAQ 3870.
* Integrated WiFi -- Maybe new (but wireless in general certainly isn't).
* CF and SD support on one device -- Done in the Casio 200 and the Toshiba e570.

So the e740 doesn't have much that we haven't seen before, either.


Underestimating the e740 a bit there I think...Having integrated wireless in a device that doesn't take up one of your slots, doesn't need a sleeve and doesn't have a huge antenna sticking out is a pretty significant first. Saying that just because wireless exists before in other methods doesn't negate the fact that Toshiba put built in wireless into a PPC first. Throw in CF, SDIO, 64k screen, 64MB memory and XScale (all of which are top of the line features in any PPC) in a very slim form factor, and the e740 is a pretty good step up from past models. No one has crammed as much into any PPC as the e740 and that includes the iPaq 3900 series. Put in a CF slot too into the 3900 and you got an equal. The E200 also came close, but has no built in comms (wireless or BT) and is not the most stable device around. I know, I had one.

[kaiden.1]

Well; I have a Toshiba E-740, and love it! It works great every time I've used it and I have not found a program yet that I didn't think ran poorly!!!

Good for Toshiba; the first to come out with the X-scale and the first to apologize. None of the other manufacturers have and they should know that there devices are in the same boat!

I still have to say that I would recommend the Toshiba E-740 to everyone. It is one great little PPC no matter what anyone thinks!

And X-scale will become what it is destined to because that is the new hardware, the software makers haveno choice but to optimize for it! Let's exercise a little bit more patience!

[mashtim]

I just wanted to also point out two factors which were instrumental in my choosing to buy an e740, despite its shortcomings, that others seem to be ignoring.

1) The fact that , as a long-time iPAQ user, I can use my old ac adapters with my new ppc. Having two Compaq chargers (one from an Aero 1500 series, no less), I now have 3 chargers for one unit; this allows me to leave one at the office and in my travel bag, so I know I'll always have one available.
2) The fact that having a laptop with WiFi built in allows me to leave yet another cable at home in my never-ending quest to keep my bag weight to a minimum (I'm a traveling salesperson, so the 2-3oz less on my shoulder really DOES make a huge difference). One day I hope to leave the laptop at home altogether.

Yes, there are going to be some growing pains with X-Scale. If you expected otherwise, you were kidding yourself. However, as my ppc is more of an information tool than an entertainment tool (not much multimedia or gaming, except for video newscasts and poker), I will gladly take CF/SD slots and built-in WiFi with no sleds or add-ons to keep track of while losing NOTHING in size factor. I'm not even going to go into how liberating it is to simply pull my ppc out of my pocket and fire it up in a second to check news, mail, etc, without having to deal with dongles or boot up/resume time. The chip is there, it's just a matter of utilizing it, which WILL happen one way or another. The human mind is far too enamored with solving problems for this to be an issue for much longer.

What was the line from that P.O.S. Costner movie? "If you build it, they will come"?

Now, if only I can get my Mazingo to sync to a flash card, I'll be a happy man! :roll:

[ThomasC22]

1) The fact that , as a long-time iPAQ user, I can use my old ac adapters with my new ppc. Having two Compaq chargers (one from an Aero 1500 series, no less), I now have 3 chargers for one unit; this allows me to leave one at the office and in my travel bag, so I know I'll always have one available.



WOW, I didn't know I could do that, Thanks!

[GadgetDave]

The e740 battery lasts about as long as the e310 using them for the same things (mix of gaming with both demanding and simple games, video playback, contacts managment, word processing). It lasts about 3 hours per charge for those kinds of uses. If you don't do gaming or much multimedia you'd get better battery life. That's with WiFi OFF. Turn on WiFi and it lasts LESS than two hours when surfing with Pocket IE for about 30 to 40 minutes, and using it for non-wireless tasks. This kind of performance has been consistent over two weeks of daily heavy use. We'll benchmark the battery soon.

I have an e740 and I find that I get a good 60-70 minutes of battery time with the regular (1000 mAH) battery doing constant network stuff (surfing, term services, etc) pretty heavily. 3-3.5 hours easy with WiFi off. I'm eagerly awaiting my extended (3000 mAH?) battery in the mail ... and would love to see some benchmarks with that.

All that being said, the e740 is a great unit - and the unit and an extended battery cost me less than the HP 39xx units ... plus, they'd still have to buy a sled, wifi card, and then don't have a CF slot open.

This is a great device for the price, and I'm sure we'll see some response on the performance issues. Might be 3 months, but ho hum - I can't play movies for a little while. Still at least as good as anything out there ...

[Daniel]

I also think that it is good of Toshiba to accept some of the responsibility for not fulfilling cutomer expectations. That's what it comes down to IMO, expectations. There has been so much hype over the new XScale and now we have a device that disappoints most people.
I agree that this is mostly MS & Intels problem but let's face it, they're not going to do anything until it's worth their while. Microsoft seems to care more about smartphones and trying to beat Nokia, not to mention anti-trust, piracy and *nix. Intel has spent billions of dollars to get Itanium to market and it has pretty much been a flop, they have Itanium II now but there is already a fair bit of negative sentiment towards the brand. Then there is AMD making Intel look silly by producing a 64bit capable processor that actually runs 32bit apps quickly.
Basically they seem to have bigger fish to fry and let's face it, there's not really *that* much money in PPCs for either of them.

Daniel

[portus]

[quote=pdagal]This is a great device for the price, and I'm sure we'll see some response on the performance issues. Might be 3 months, but ho hum - I can't play movies for a little while. Still at least as good as anything out there ...

You CAN play movies! Go get PocketDivX 0.8g from:

http://home.adelphia.net/~mdukette/downloads.html

Make sure you get the "PocketPC 2002 &lt;Not for iPaq>" one. PocketDivX 0.8g plays smoother avi and MPEG-1 videos than PocketTV on the e740!

[jlp]

What about WinCE.net on these XScale devices? CE.net has been available since early this year -at least Casio annouced it for the BE 300 in February-March I think. Is it really out?

Will it run on the current crop of XScale devices? The Toshiba, the PocketLOOX, the ipaq 39xx, etc.? I suspect the latter one has 48 MB ROM for that purpose!!!

It's supposed to be quite faster than CE 3.0/PPC. If it's optimized for the XScale CPU then it would be great. And I bet MS would rather optimize CE.net (CE 4.0) than the current more than 2 years old CE 3.0.

[pdagal]

It's the same 1400 mah battery that the iPAQ 3800 series has. . . but the iPAQ 3900 series gets a few more hours run time than the 3800 series which shows that XScale is more battery efficient.


That's because the battery is freaking huge ! the Toshiba has only a 1000mah battery!

[pdagal]

It's the same 1400 mah battery that the iPAQ 3800 series has. . . but the iPAQ 3900 series gets a few more hours run time than the 3800 series which shows that XScale is more battery efficient.


That's because the battery is freaking huge ! the Toshiba has only a 1000mah battery!

[pdagal]

Sorry for the duplicate posts! I got an error about french_lang_notify.tpl not found and then there were 3 of the same post.

[Pony99CA]

3 things about it:
* Integrated Bluethooth -- Done in the iPAQ 3870.
* Integrated WiFi -- Maybe new (but wireless in general certainly isn't).
* CF and SD support on one device -- Done in the Casio 200 and the Toshiba e570.

So the e740 doesn't have much that we haven't seen before, either.


Underestimating the e740 a bit there I think...Having integrated wireless in a device that doesn't take up one of your slots, doesn't need a sleeve and doesn't have a huge antenna sticking out is a pretty significant first. Saying that just because wireless exists before in other methods doesn't negate the fact that Toshiba put built in wireless into a PPC first. Throw in CF, SDIO, 64k screen, 64MB memory and XScale (all of which are top of the line features in any PPC) in a very slim form factor, and the e740 is a pretty good step up from past models. No one has crammed as much into any PPC as the e740 and that includes the iPaq 3900 series. Put in a CF slot too into the 3900 and you got an equal. The E200 also came close, but has no built in comms (wireless or BT) and is not the most stable device around. I know, I had one.

(NOTE: Fixed the original quotation to reflect the actual author.)

No, I'm not underestimating the e740. I said it may be the first to have WiFi integrated. Do not say it was the first to have wireless, though, because Palm had a wireless system (using cellphone networks) and the iPAQ 3870 had wireless (using Bluetooth with a Bluetooth Access Point).

However, you entirely missed the point of my posting. I wasn't denigrating the e740 -- it looks like a very cool Pocket PC. If I didn't have my iPAQ 3870 and an investment in sleeves and peripherals, I'd certainly consider buying one.

I'm just sick and tired of people claiming Toshiba is being so innovative while HP/Compaq aren't. Compaq drove innovation in the Pocket PC market both with the original iPAQ and with the 3800 series. As I said, if it weren't for the iPAQ, the Pocket PC may have gone the way of the Palm-Sized PC. Other manufacturers are now stepping up and innovating, too, which is a great thing, but that shouldn't negate the innovations that Compaq has done.

Steve

[pdagal]

I'd didn't write the part quoted to me below (PDAGAL). Gadget Dave wrote it :idea:
I think the e740 is adequate for watching movies right now :)

[quote=pdagal]This is a great device for the price, and I'm sure we'll see some response on the performance issues. Might be 3 months, but ho hum - I can't play movies for a little while. Still at least as good as anything out there ...

You CAN play movies! Go get PocketDivX 0.8g from:

http://home.adelphia.net/~mdukette/downloads.html

Make sure you get the "PocketPC 2002 &lt;Not for iPaq>" one. PocketDivX 0.8g plays smoother avi and MPEG-1 videos than PocketTV on the e740!

[jdhill]

If I didn't have my iPAQ 3870 and an investment in sleeves and peripherals, I'd certainly consider buying one.
Steve
And that point right there is the "genius" of the Compaq iPaq: "Lock them in with the proprietary sleeves. Then even when a better Pocket PC comes along from another company, they'll be reluctant to switch and loose their investment."

I'd have to guess that there would be more former iPaq owners if it wasn't for the sleeves. That's precisely why I buy only standard peripherals (CF, SD, PCMCIA). When I get feed up with Casio (and I'm rapidly approaching that point) I will have no problem switching to another company's Pocket PC since my NIC, WiFi NIC, modem, CF memory, SD memory, etc. are all going to work on the next Pocket PC (which will have both a CF type II slot and an SD slot, or it will not be my next Pocket PC).