Yet Another New Toshiba

[marlof]

<a href="http://www.excite.co.jp/world/url/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.co.jp%2Fmobile%2F0204%2F18%2Fn_nge.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2">http://www.excite.co.jp/world/url/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.co.jp%2Fmobile%2F0204%2F18%2Fn_nge.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2</a><br /><br />Somehow I have the feeling that Toshiba has tested the waters with their earlier corporate only products, and now join the Pocket PC ranks full force. Brandon Hill sent in two links to a new XScale based Toshiba 550G. Although not all Japanese Toshiba's come to Europe and the VS, this one shows hardware that means a new route for Toshiba: a new 4" screen, and that leads me to believe that this will cross over sooner or later. The Japanese <a href="http://www.excite.co.jp/world/url/body?wb_url=http://genio-e.com/pda/products/pic.htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2">Toshiba Genio e-feature page</a> calles this screen "Poly-Si TFT LCD". The next picture shows the new model next to the 'old' Toshiba e570.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/toshiba_550G_1.jpg" /><br /><br />The specs state that it will keep the Compact Flash type II slot, and a SD/IO slot. According to <a href="http://www.excite.co.jp/world/url/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.co.jp%2Fmobile%2F0204%2F18%2Fn_nge_2.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2">the second page</a> of a preview <a href="http://www.excite.co.jp/world/url/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zdnet.co.jp%2Fmobile%2F0204%2F18%2Fn_nge.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2">on the Japanese ZDNet</a>, there will be battery and PCMCIA extensions for this new model. And again they show that nifty Bluetooth SD card. To top it off, this model will feature a USB host function, just like the Casio E-200 has now!

[Jason Dunn]

Lovely! Beautiful! Gorgeous!

Screen size is EVERYTHING on these little things, so this model looks incredible!

[Newsboy]

Screen looks nice, but when are we going to Oled (Organic LED) screens on palm-size devices? They're coming in the next year on a 3G wireless SmartPhone device from Sanyo, marketed by Sprint PCS. Self-illuminating, and auto-adjusts to available light conditions. The advantage is ultra-low power consumption, faster refresh rates, better contrast and brightness...God I hate reflective TFT Lcds. I bought two Sony LCD TVs last year, the little 2.2" portable jobs. The low end model had a passive-matrix screen, and the high-end model an active-matrix TFT LCD screen w/ triple twister transistors. What a difference. Several people commented the $150 Sony Portable TV looked MUCH better than the 27" TVs they had at home!

[dazz]

Is it my imagination or does this screen look WAY better? 8O The contrast and colour look way better than the older Toshiba.

I want!!! :twisted:

Dazz

[michael]

Sold! Where can I pre-order?
I think Tosh have really got this right, big screen, looks slightly thiner than the previous model. It has the ability to alter the prcoessor speed on the fly, or the user can underclock to save power. The accessories look great, I'm very interested in the earphones with a remote control for media player. It would be nice if it had bluetooth built in, but I can probably live without that and use an expansion card for that instead - probably CF as I think CF is going to become primarily used for connectivity and SD will become the primary storage medium for new devices.

[MBurch]

I have seen my PDA future...and it is TOSHIBA!

If this thing is as solid as my ancient Toshiba Satellite laptop that still gets daily use after five years...I WILL BUY! :twisted:

[Jason Lee]

aarrrgghh... Must... control... gadget... fettish... :x

[entropy1980]

Cancelling my order for the Loox, put down for one of these babies!!! wow great looks, great screen makes me wonder whats in store from the other PPC manufacturers, looks like Toshiba may be the Sony of the Pocket PC world!

[takotchi]

Ugly, but it makes better use of the size of the device with the bigger screen and less other "stuff" on the face. Hopefully this screen won't have dust.

No built-in bluetooth, which is okay, because having SD I/O is a better compromise (IMHO).

[MellowYellow]

The big screen is pure sex. However the battery rating is even lower than the original e570. That means 0.5hr of actual use per charge...?

[alex_kac]

Maybe its just me - but why pre-order models (Loox or any other) that you see one picture of? You don't really know how well it works, battery life, how it feels, if it has any defects - especially since these are all 1st generation Xscale devices.

I see hundreds of posts from people who bought iPaqs or Casios or Jornadas who said "If I had only known about this one limitation..." which of course you're not going to know from a screenshot.

[entropy1980]

Maybe its just me - but why pre-order models (Loox or any other) that you see one picture of? You don't really know how well it works, battery life, how it feels, if it has any defects - especially since these are all 1st generation Xscale devices.

I see hundreds of posts from people who bought iPaqs or Casios or Jornadas who said "If I had only known about this one limitation..." which of course you're not going to know from a screenshot.


Why pre-order? Because i can! If I have the disposable income and enjoy it why not?

[tw]

The big screen is pure sex. However the battery rating is even lower than the original e570. That means 0.5hr of actual use per charge...?

???

No, it is not lower. It has 1100mAh while the e570 had a 1000mAh battery.

Since the XScale and the new display type consume less power the e550G will last longer. Toshiba claims 10 hours. And you can add a optional 1500mAh battery for 24 hours battery life.

[JonathanWardRogers]

Why isn't the resolution better? Sony has had a much higher resolution PDA screen for quite a while now. When are we going to see that in a Pocket PC?

Just think how great it would be to have a 300X400 screen!

It does look like a killer device though.

Jon

[entropy1980]

I believe it is a requirement of PPC device to have a 320x240,( i could be wrong)

[JonnoB]

Why isn't the resolution better?


Microsoft req. based on standard reference design. I must say however, a 4" screen could easily accomodate a higher resolution with the same clarity as existing PPCs.

My hands are just shaking in anticipation over this one. I have been handing down my PPCs to other members of my family as I buy the latest/greatest. If things keep going this way, I am going to end up outfitting everyone I know.

[entropy1980]

My hands are just shaking in anticipation over this one. I have been handing down my PPCs to other members of my family as I buy the latest/greatest. If things keep going this way, I am going to end up outfitting everyone I know.


Hey me too! I wonder if that is part of their plan to increase market share! :lol:

[b3trio]

68,000 yen. That's about US$525.

[JonnoB]

68,000 yen. That's about US$525.


Somehow, I doubt we will see it for that price. Even though the Exchange rate has been sitting somewhere in the 130:1 range (Yen:US).... most Japanese believe it should be more like 80:1 and that will likely factor in a US price.

[Duncan]

Cold water time...

No release indicated yet for outside Japan

Pathetic battery life (even though it is X-scale, other new PPCs with bigger batteries will outdo it)

Bigger screen does not necessarily mean better. Bigger screen = bigger pixels = less sharp picture

USB host? Seems nice now BUT are you going to unplug your keyboard, printer etc. just to use with a Pocket PC? Inbuilt bluetooth would be much more forward looking - no need to waste a slot then - just carry a small USB bluetooth connector for your PC.

PC Card extension unit and battery extender - the ugliest and most ill-thought out of all the Pocket PCs so far!

The 'pad' - how usable is it going to be at that size? Playing with the original Genio I found the pad awkward, this one is even smaller!
The overall design is much less elegant - and I still think the button placement is very badly thought out - the far left and far right buttons require quite a reach from the centre pad.

Toshiba are not very focussed on the general consumer (though for businesses they are excellent). This would make me doubt their support for things that might matter to the average non-corporate user.

With all due respect to Jason - screen size is not everything. Battery size and general usability are far more important. On these I see nothing to get excited about.

[NLS]

Way worse than LOOX.

1) 4" are NOT better. I am 28 I have a little myopia and still prefer SMALLER (and crisper) screens. I would like 3.5" like the current crop BUT would love the edges to come closer and still look like the new genio (which instead of getting smaller, enlarged the screen! PEOPLE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PDA! CLIE HAS 320x320 IN SMALLER than 3.5" screen!)

2) No EMBEDDED bluetooth. You have to eat one of your slots AND buy an expensive peripheral from them to do the job (btw in case you don't know it, the microdriver version for Japan DOES eat the CF slot).

3) Where is the phone module?

:roll:

[tw]

Pathetic battery life (even though it is X-scale, other new PPCs with bigger batteries will outdo it)
How do you know? The new display type of Toshiba is supposed to consume less power. So we have to wait and see what display types the other PPCs will use.

Bigger screen does not necessarily mean better. Bigger screen = bigger pixels = less sharp picture
We have to wait and see how it looks. I for one prefer the bigger 3.8" screen of the iPaqs and MobilePro any day over the 3.5" displays of the other Pocket PCs.

USB host? Seems nice now BUT are you going to unplug your keyboard, printer etc. just to use with a Pocket PC?
Of course the main use of the port would be for mobile keyboards, game controllers etc.. So you don't have to buy a special stoaway keyboard for any new PPC you buy.

Inbuilt bluetooth would be much more forward looking - no need to waste a slot then - just carry a small USB bluetooth connector for your PC.
I'm using a Wireless LAN CF card anyway for that. It's cheaper, it's more than 10 times faster and its range is 5..10 times bigger. More importantly WLAN products are much more compatible among each other and WLAN is the technology of choice for public wireless "hotspots" everywhere. So I don't care much about Bluetooth right now.


PC Card extension unit and battery extender - the ugliest and most ill-thought out of all the Pocket PCs so far!
Why??? Care to back up this claim with some facts? They look much better than the fat iPaq sleeves to me.

The 'pad' - how usable is it going to be at that size? Playing with the original Genio I found the pad awkward, this one is even smaller!
I have the e570 (Genio) and I think its pad is much better than the awkward oval iPaq pad or the crappy E-200 pad. It has a nice smooth feel to it. I see no reason to believe that the pad e550G will be worse just because you say so.

The overall design is much less elegant - and I still think the button placement is very badly thought out - the far left and far right buttons require quite a reach from the centre pad.

It's just your personal taste. My taste is different. I think the new Genio e550G with the large display is best looking Pocket PC so far.

Toshiba are not very focussed on the general consumer (though for businesses they are excellent). This would make me doubt their support for things that might matter to the average non-corporate user.
The focus on businesses with respect to Pocket PCs applies only for the US since they have the deal with Audiovox there. In Europe and Asia Toshiba is focussed on the general consumer.

Your arguing is not convincing since 80% is speculation and/or personal preference.

[MellowYellow]

???

No, it is not lower. It has 1100mAh while the e570 had a 1000mAh battery.

Since the XScale and the new display type consume less power the e550G will last longer. Toshiba claims 10 hours. And you can add a optional 1500mAh battery for 24 hours battery life.


I might be wrong, but from the translation page the new machine is rated with 10 hr battery life, while the old e570 is rated at 12hr.

And we all know how much of that 12hr translates to real life usage.

[Duncan]

Your arguing is not convincing since 80% is speculation and/or personal preference.

Yes?! Of course it is! What else is there at this point! There are plenty of people arguing it is going to be wonderful - also based on speculation and preference - am I not allowed to challenge them?

Battery life - 1100 vs 1520 - that is going to have to be an amazing screen to make up the difference in available power!

Screen - the choice in current models is between bigger or sharper (I owned an iPaq 3870 and I know it suffered in the sharpness area). You prefer one, I ma leaning towards the other. I only said, in order to redress the balance, that 'bigger does not necessarily mean better. I'm hargdly claiming certainty here! I'm going to be waiting to see what the screen is like!

USB host - the Pocket PC is meant for portability and convenience. I stand by my opinion (and I do not claim it is anything else!) that the USB port is not useful for either. Others may, of course, disagree!

Bluetooth vs. wireless LAN - hmmm... this is an arguement for a different thread but - WLAN = more battery hungry, less secure, more expensive and for an entirely different market and purpose than Bluetooth!

Bluetooth hotspots in the UK - London Underground, Virgin Trains, my local school, London Heathrow and Gatwick - all have, or are about to have, Bluetooth hotspots bulit in. Mobile phones, Printers, Laptops, PCs, video cameras etc. BT products are as compatible as the profiles they support - same as WLAN. Whether you care about WLAN or not - BT is here and it is doing the business.

BTW - I heard this week that a Pocket PC with 802.11 built in is coming. Compaq supposedly. As per ususal treat as rumour 'til confirmed!

PC Card and battery extender - yes, the Compaq ones are very big - but the pictures of the Toshiba ones - well, to me at least, they look ungainly - even the Casio one is better thought out! It is, by the way, very difficult to back up an aesthetic opinion with facts! :wink:

The pad and buttons - you may well find the Toshiba pad and buttons very usable. Horses for courses and all that! Surely, however, you must admit that the size of the new pad is going to make it very fiddly?! I may be giving an opinion from looks alone - but could you really say that the size of the new pad is not a worry?

Toshiba focus in Europe - here I'm just going to have to say - you're wrong! Take a look at the Toshiba website, the events thay sponsor, the fact that Toshiba machines are positioned in the business sector of PC World, the adverts in the press, the bundled software packages...

Anyway - I don't seek to convince you, merely to put an alternative point of view! Disagreement is healthy, as is opionion and speculation as long as one is prepared to be surprised or disappointed! :)

[Timothy Rapson]

Toshiba has the quality, and it appears from these two new entries, the will to really make the PPC a market force in the PDA world.

They really knock the socks off the competition. The E310 is competitive with the Compaq 3835 for $150 less, this E550G takes on future top of the line HPs and Compaqs for $100 less (assuming the $500 is correct and translates to US market).

For Toshiba to sell them at these prices they must have ordered millions of them to be made. Otherwise they would be deliberately setting themselves up to lose money on each one. Toshiba is not stupid enough to do that. Toshiba is hungry and that may make for very good developments for us PDA consumers.

They are still unlikely to get my money. I am just no longer interested in buying a PPC at least until I try out the Sony NR70V. But, a lot of people who want a handheld that does full video and runs like their desktops do (for good AND FOR ILL) will try these Toshibas.

[jpaq]

Looks great!
Higher resolution on that size screen would be nice. It may be possible. Sony upped the resolution of the Palm OS. If it can be done there, it can certainly be done on a PPC. Can you say Service Pack? I can see a resolution upgrade coming from that or Toshiba innovating without MS like Sony did without Palm.

If there is a phone attachment and a decent battery.....SOLD!

A phone add on makes more since anyway. That way they can make seperate pieces for CDMA, GPRS, etc. and you can choose for yourself.

Give it Bluetooth or built in 802.11b/a and you've got one hell of a PDA.

Now, with all of that, if I could only use tables in Word.

[tw]

Yes?! Of course it is! What else is there at this point! There are plenty of people arguing it is going to be wonderful - also based on speculation and preference - am I not allowed to challenge them?

I was refering to some of your claims you didn't back up with any evidence whatsover. For example you claimed that the PC Card extension unit and battery extender is the "the ugliest and most ill-thought out of all the Pocket PCs" without giving any reason (I'm talking about the "most ill-thought out" here).

Battery life - 1100 vs 1520 - that is going to have to be an amazing screen to make up the difference in available power!
Not really. Already 10..20% less power consumption would make up for the additional mere 320mAh the Loox has since the color display is today by far the most hungry part of any PPC.

USB host - the Pocket PC is meant for portability and convenience. I stand by my opinion (and I do not claim it is anything else!) that the USB port is not useful for either. Others may, of course, disagree!
Sorry but that makes no sense at all. Of course the USB host port can be utilized for portable keyboards, small dongle-style modems etc. in the same way the proprietary ports of any PDA are utilized. The USB host port has just additional benefits. It is not proprietary but a industry standard, it is faster, and can be used with many many more things, including things useful for portability and convenience, like for example Bluetooth, WLAN or Ethernet dongle-style adapters, USB hard disks (2.5" notebook harddisks for example) etc..

Bluetooth vs. wireless LAN - hmmm... this is an arguement for a different thread but - WLAN = more battery hungry, less secure, more expensive and for an entirely different market and purpose than Bluetooth!
Yes it's more power hungry because it has a useful speed and range (though the newer WLAN cards consume much less power than the early ones and have good adaptive power saving modes). And yes of course BT it was actually for a different market (cable and IrDA replacement) but tried to make inroads into the WLAN market which failed up to now.
Currently BT is also more expensive than WLAN. WLAN cards, USB adapters and APs are much cheaper than BT cards, adapters and APs.

Bluetooth hotspots in the UK - London Underground, Virgin Trains, my local school, London Heathrow and Gatwick - all have, or are about to have, Bluetooth hotspots bulit in.
I don't know about the UK but in the US and most of continental Europe WLAN is dominating everywhere whereas BT hotspots virtually don't exist. In the US even more so than in Europe. You can find WLAN in many hotels, airports, train stations, even in some public places and communities, universities, coffee bars (e.g. Starbucks). Many wireless provides like Mobilcom, Vodafone in Europe or Voicestream in the US are building hotspots for their 3G networks using WLAN.

Don't get me wrong. Built-in BT is a nice to have feature. I'm using it myself with a T68 mobile phone. But this (i.e. serial cable replacement) is the only application which works with 95% of all BT products without problems. BT will never replace WLAN for wireless network access because its speed is a total joke. Ever tried to Active Sync via BT? Currently it is as slow as a serial 115,2 kBit/s connection and doesn't even reach USB speeds.

Mobile phones, Printers, Laptops, PCs, video cameras etc. BT products are as compatible as the profiles they support - same as WLAN. Whether you care about WLAN or not - BT is here and it is doing the business.
Oh no, it does not. I have tested a lot of BT equipment as part of my job and it has lots and lots of compatibility issues. Want to know some examples? Try to bundle a 3Com BT USB adapter and an iPaq 3870: doesn't work. Get a TDK BT USB adapter if you want to have something working. Try to send a file using BT from a Anycom BT card to a Socket BT card: doesn't work. etc. etc.. Try build a BT Piconet of more than two devices of different manufactures: forget it.


BTW - I heard this week that a Pocket PC with 802.11 built in is coming. Compaq supposedly. As per ususal treat as rumour 'til confirmed!
The same rumour exists about the additional versions of the e550G.

PC Card and battery extender - yes, the Compaq ones are very big - but the pictures of the Toshiba ones - well, to me at least, they look ungainly - even the Casio one is better thought out! It is, by the way, very difficult to back up an aesthetic opinion with facts! :wink:

I think in comparison to the Compaq sleeves the Toshiba modules look really flat. And please don't mention the Casio one. I used it for two weeks and then returned it because it was really the biggest brick of all!

The pad and buttons - you may well find the Toshiba pad and buttons very usable. Horses for courses and all that! Surely, however, you must admit that the size of the new pad is going to make it very fiddly?! I may be giving an opinion from looks alone - but could you really say that the size of the new pad is not a worry?
I will worry (or not) if I have tested it. Or some credible review site has tested it. It might be the best pad of all - or the worst. Or just something new. We just don't know yet. And as I wrote I never liked the large stiff pads of the iPaq or the E-200.

Toshiba focus in Europe - here I'm just going to have to say - you're wrong! Take a look at the Toshiba website, the events thay sponsor, the fact that Toshiba machines are positioned in the business sector of PC World, the adverts in the press, the bundled software packages...
Sorry I live in Europe too and can safely say on that issue that you're wrong and I'm right. Toshiba has many business products but they have also a huge consumer line of PCs, laptops, PDAs etc.. which you can buy here (in Germany) in the large electronic retail stores everywhere. Many of these PCs and laptops, business and consumer, are made in Germany btw..

Anyway - I don't seek to convince you, merely to put an alternative point of view! Disagreement is healthy, as is opionion and speculation as long as one is prepared to be surprised or disappointed! :)

Yep I agree. Therefore I rebutted your e550G bashing in the first place.

I don't claim that the e550G will be the best XScale PPC but I think your bashing was a bit early and mostly unfounded, not based on any hard facts.

[Boxster S]

I might be wrong, but from the translation page the new machine is rated with 10 hr battery life, while the old e570 is rated at 12hr.

And we all know how much of that 12hr translates to real life usage.

You ARE wrong; the Maestro/e570 is rated at 8 hours.

[tw]

I might be wrong, but from the translation page the new machine is rated with 10 hr battery life, while the old e570 is rated at 12hr.

And we all know how much of that 12hr translates to real life usage.

You ARE wrong; the Maestro/e570 is rated at 8 hours.

Yes and 8 hours with backlight turned off that is.

[NLS]

so who hasn't checked this out?

http://www.pocketpcminds.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=397

[Duncan]

tw,

Just a few small points:

1) Picking on the fact I used the phrase 'ill-thought out' is a bit silly - I can have an opionion that something does not show good thought without knowing the engineers that designed it! The picture shows it to be poor design - I dont' need to hold it to know that I don't want to be seen holdig something that looks so ungainly! Yes it seems flatter - but what about the way the modules stick out, don't match the product etc.?

2) The display saving 30% power? Maybe but I would really need convincing...

3) BT - TDK support more profiles than Anycom. That is why TDK devices work better, not because of any innate compatibility problems. So TDK deserve our custom, Anycom don't - seems fair enough to me!

4) Maybe Toshiba have a consumer presence in Germany - in the UK they focus mostly on the business side. It is possible to wrongly generalise from one country to the whole of Europe - that I'll grant you!

5) Toshiba bashing is not what I am doing. People are jumping on these new devices as if they are somehow already 'the' one to get. I was merely trying to point out that there were many reasons not to assume this is the fantastic device some are assuming it to be.

Let me be absolutely clear - it si Toshiba and, therefore, should be a good Pocket PC - but so far it is not standing out. While you judge me for early 'bashing' without 'hard facts'....

Screen size is EVERYTHING on these little things, so this model looks incredible!Is it my imagination or does this screen look WAY better? The contrast and colour look way better than the older Toshiba.
I think Tosh have really got this right, big screen, looks slightly thiner than the previous model.I have seen my PDA future...and it is TOSHIBA!wow great looks, great screen

Are you not going to criticise anyone for saying how great the device is without hard facts? :!: C'mon tw - speculation and pictures are all we have for heaven's sake!

[MellowYellow]

You ARE wrong; the Maestro/e570 is rated at 8 hours.


I don't know the OFFICAL claim, but from the translated page it says the Genio e550x has battery life of 12 hours (if you read my post correctly you'd realize that's where I got my numbers from)

[tw]

1) Picking on the fact I used the phrase 'ill-thought out' is a bit silly - I can have an opionion that something does not show good thought without knowing the engineers that designed it! The picture shows it to be poor design - I dont' need to hold it to know that I don't want to be seen holdig something that looks so ungainly! Yes it seems flatter - but what about the way the modules stick out, don't match the product etc.?

Sorry but I still don't understand why do you think they have a poor design? I see a great flat battery module of just 6.8mm thickness. Where do they "stick out"? Do you mean on the bottom? Hmm, but you cannot mean that since the E-200 module sticks out way more on the bottom. Nevertheless you stated you like it more.
Why is that poor design? Frankly I have no idea what you think is "ill-thought out" with these moduls especially since you like the E-200 modules more? Do you mean the black color? Ok I would have prefered silver too...

2) The display saving 30% power? Maybe but I would really need convincing...
I didn't wrote 30%. I wrote 10..20% less would be enough to make up for the smaller battery. The current generation of displays is very power hungry.

3) BT - TDK support more profiles than Anycom. That is why TDK devices work better, not because of any innate compatibility problems. So TDK deserve our custom, Anycom don't - seems fair enough to me!

First of all I didn't compare TDK with Anycom, but TDK with 3Com and Anycom with Socket. Second I was NOT talking about a profile issue. Both 3Com and TDK support the needed profiles for that application - on paper. Same applies for the Anycom vs. Socket issue I mentioned (we have even newer not yet released drivers for the Socket which support more profiles than the v120C currently available officially from Socket). Nevertheless they have real compatibilty issues which are well known. Check out the Socket support forums or similar sources. There are lots of BT compatibility issues.

4) Maybe Toshiba have a consumer presence in Germany - in the UK they focus mostly on the business side. It is possible to wrongly generalise from one country to the whole of Europe - that I'll grant you!
Yes we both could generalise wrongly but Toshiba has not only a consumer presence in Germany, but also in other EU countries like France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, and Asian countries, like Japan, Korea etc..
Btw. are you aware that Toshiba is also a large manufacturer of consumer products like TVs, DVD players, home cinema projectors etc.?
I'm sure these products are also available in the UK. Especially since they are listed on the UK Toshiba web site:
http://www.home-entertainment.toshiba.co.uk/consumer/home.nsf :D

5) Toshiba bashing is not what I am doing. People are jumping on these new devices as if they are somehow already 'the' one to get. I was merely trying to point out that there were many reasons not to assume this is the fantastic device some are assuming it to be.

Let me be absolutely clear - it si Toshiba and, therefore, should be a good Pocket PC - but so far it is not standing out. While you judge me for early 'bashing' without 'hard facts'....

Screen size is EVERYTHING on these little things, so this model looks incredible!Is it my imagination or does this screen look WAY better? The contrast and colour look way better than the older Toshiba.
I think Tosh have really got this right, big screen, looks slightly thiner than the previous model.I have seen my PDA future...and it is TOSHIBA!wow great looks, great screen

Are you not going to criticise anyone for saying how great the device is without hard facts? :!: C'mon tw - speculation and pictures are all we have for heaven's sake!

Hmm, but all these quotes above, except the next to last one, seem to make pretty valid assumptions just about the bigger screen just based on the pictures - hard facts. The screen of the e550G is indeed bigger and looks better (brighter and more contrast) than that of the e570 on the shots where both rest side by side.

Whereas you made some claims about the "bad" battery life, the "poor" add-on modules, the "bad" pad etc. which seemed to be much more far fetched given that nobody outside Japan has tested it yet. And no I don't think you can tell that just from the pictures as I already pointed out.

[Jason Dunn]

Ok, everyone step away from the keyboard and take a little breath of fresh air - this is starting to be a little too flame-ish for me. :D

[tw]

You ARE wrong; the Maestro/e570 is rated at 8 hours.


I don't know the OFFICAL claim, but from the translated page it says the Genio e550x has battery life of 12 hours (if you read my post correctly you'd realize that's where I got my numbers from)

But the e550X is not the e570/Maestro. The e570/Maestro is identical to the e550 and is rated at 8 hours.

The e550X is only available in Japan and is a new version of the e550/e570/Maestro. It has a bigger battery than the e550/e570/Maestro of the same size has the e550G: 1100mAh. But its 12 hour rating of it is meant with backlight turned off.

[Newsboy]

I was refering to some of your claims you didn't back up with any evidence whatsover. For example you claimed that the PC Card extension unit and battery extender is the "the ugliest and most ill-thought out of all the Pocket PCs" without giving any reason...


No offense, I'm not taking sides here, but last time I checked, that qualified as his opinion, not so much a claim that requires evidence. If someone is talking out his/her ass, sure, put them in their place. But otherwise, pls. stop abusing the quote feature. I mean geez, if these people are all wrong in their speculation, they will be proven so when the devices are released and either do or don't meet their claims.

But until then, whats the point in arguing about it? I'd rather be using my PPC than be talking about the one I *might* buy *if it's good enough* in six months.

[Duncan]

tw,

I DID misread a couple of things you said for which I apologise (I don't like being misquoted myself and would not deliberately do so myself)- blame tiredness!

However - I still disagree with you on a number of points! I am not going to go into them because, as Jason very tactfully points out in a non-pointy out kind of way, this kind of exchange can get out of hand.

I repeat my key thoughts, not to you directly, in brief (the ones which really matter):

I don't like the look of the new pad - from the picture it is clearly very much smaller, it is a pin based pad (from the picture where it has been removed) which makes me think too easily broken.

The screen may be bigger but this can be a bad thing as well as a good thing. Screen images of LCD screens mislead.

The module attachments are the wrong colour, just below the unit, are not flush with the top and (from the picture) the unit appears to have a slight gap where it joins the module at the bottom. Slim it may be - but that isn't everything.

No Bluetooth = bad thing; USB = pointless when the serial socket and BT would render it redundant.

I don't think the Toshiba is a bad Pocket PC from what we know so far - I would be very surprised if it was - given Toshiba's reputation. I do not think it is good enough, however, and that is based entirely on known specs.

All of the above is opinion only! Next time I think I'll just join in the general adulation... For what it's worth - the new Jornada Pocket PC (no not the 928...) sounds very good (potentially) but until reviews and physiacl evidence come into play the Loox is definitely winning the Speculation Derby for me...

[st63z]

Very good points all around.

I'm curious, there have been (and will come) handheld devices with 4" VGA screens (in other words, with the acclaimed 200ppi). I wonder if it can be feasible and practical for MS to extend PPC to support this? I want them to develop future PPC (or rather the underlying CE .NET) with even more versatile font/GUI widget sizing than their desktop Windows.

It may render ClearType a moot point, and there are many other advantages to a VGA res.

[tw]

I was refering to some of your claims you didn't back up with any evidence whatsover. For example you claimed that the PC Card extension unit and battery extender is the "the ugliest and most ill-thought out of all the Pocket PCs" without giving any reason...


No offense, I'm not taking sides here, but last time I checked, that qualified as his opinion, not so much a claim that requires evidence. If someone is talking out his/her ass, sure, put them in their place. But otherwise, pls. stop abusing the quote feature. I mean geez, if these people are all wrong in their speculation, they will be proven so when the devices are released and either do or don't meet their claims.

But until then, whats the point in arguing about it? I'd rather be using my PPC than be talking about the one I *might* buy *if it's good enough* in six months.

Well right, but first of all the point in arguing about is that this is a discussion forum. I'm here because I like discussing PPCs (occasionally). Ok, sometimes I tend to get carried away a bit in a heated debate. (Thanks Jason for the hint).

Second, as for your other statements, correct me if my English is wrong (I'm not a native speaker), but the stating of opinions are usually accompanied by some phrases like "in my opinion", "IMHO", "I think" etc.. But the way it was written ("PC Card extension unit and battery extender - the ugliest and most ill-thought out of all the Pocket PCs so far!") without given any reasoning sounded like a claim to me. Same applies for the other opinions/claims in Duncan's original posting.

But actually it doesn't matter whether it was a claim or opinion. I don't think I have "abused the quoting feature". The quoting feature is just a good way to quote others correctly. And this is what I did. And if somebody writes something like the above without even giving any reason in the first place (check out Duncan's first "e550G bashing" post) than I feel perfectly free to ask him to back it up. At least with some reasons why he thinks so - which he later did though it didn't convince me (since it was not logical but I don't want to get into it here).

Anyway, I cannot see anything wrong with that. After all this is a discussion forum for discussions.

[st63z]

^ Well, to be fair, the earlier posts of adulation also (sometimes) weren't accompanied by [phrases like "in my opinion", "IMHO", "I think" etc..], although you claim they [seem to make pretty valid assumptions].

Oh gosh, and here I was hoping not to get sucked into this and not to commit my own board abuses, sorry... I just have too much free time on my hands (and especially excited given the influx of cool PDA news rolling in lately).

But it's good to read everyone's opinions. And I know that sometimes when adrenaline is running high from juicy new rumors, it's no fun to get mellowed out by dissenting "negativers" :)

Personally, I'm not sure how I would like the pros/cons of 4" vs. 3.5" QVGA resolution (disregarding other display qualities such as brightness)...?

[Duncan]

tw,

My opinions were very obviously opinions. Opinions cannot always be backed up (and sometimes shouldn't be... when I tell my wife that she is beautiful I don't add: 'in my opinion'!). If I have to tell you when I am offering an opinion, even when there is nothing else it can be - well something has to be wrong! This is Pocket PC Thoughts. I offered my thoughts. I am utterly bemused as to why you should take umbrage in such a way. Disagree with me - yes; but don't attack my right to give my opinions... and for the last time - I did not 'bash' the new Toshiba - I pointed out some possible flaws preventing it from being the new top dog!

st63z,

Yes. I suppose my post could seem like being overly negative! I should have learnt from past experience that people don't like having their 'wow, nice new Pocket PC' balloons burst! I do think, however, that if we see how manufacturers have NOT got it right with one new Pocket PC we stand more of a chance of being genuinely dazzled when something really special comes along.

Now the Loox - that is pretty close to flawless both in it's specs. and in the presentation of it done by FS. I refuse to get too excited though - that way leads to bitter disappointment! This time around I'm waiting till I see all of the big boys efforts before I jump.

As for the screen size - call me cynical but I can't help but wonder if the opening of a new screen factory (or whatever they call them) or a reduction in LCD prices might not be the REAL reason for the bigger screen.

Anyway - past my bedtime. If I don't go to sleep soon the PDA Santa won't deliver news of any more new Pocket PCs. :)

[tw]

Duncan,

and I still disagree with you. :) For the sake of a clear discussion conclusion I comment your key thoughts once more without quoting you directly. ;)


You believe the pad can be easily broken though you don't know what material it is made of. Fine. But given the very good quality of the Toshiba e570 I see no reason to believe the quality of the e550G is worse. I will wait for the first reviews.
You believe the bigger screen could be worse. Yes it could be - but it could be even better. But given the very good quality of the Toshiba e570 I see no reason why the quality of the e550G should be worse. I will wait for the first reviews.
The module is black not silver/gray - ok that's a fact. But the iPaq sleeves are also black. So it doesn't make the Toshiba ones better or worse. I think this is just logical and fair.
The modules don't flush with the top - that's also a fact. But it is not a bug but a feature. It makes it much more easier to remove CF cards from the CF slot. This could get very annoying with the Casio PC-Card module for example. An advantage in my book.
Unit has a slight gap where it joins the module at the bottom - I don't see any slight gap down there. Check out the bigger pictures:
http://www.zdnet.co.jp/mobile/0204/18/l_pcbatt.jpg
It fits perfectly. In my book these are the best thought out add-on modules of all Pocket PCs though I wish they would come in silver.
You believe: no Bluetooth = bad thing. Most people don't care about BT. iPaq 3850 are selling better than iPaq 3870. And BT can be added later by using either of the two slots or the USB host port. You're not stuck with a built-in BT 1.1 when BT 2.0 comes along.
You believe USB is pointless when the serial socket and BT would render it redundant. Fact is BT cannot render USB redundant yet. BT is 12times slower than USB and could never be used to hook up a hard disk, CD-ROM/CD-RW, DVD-ROM etc. for example very useful in a car for many purposes. Also the USB port makes you independent to wait for a special expensive keyboard made for your PDA. You can just use any portable USB keyboard. A USB host port is great in my book - as long as drivers are available.
Glad that you dropped your other opinions/claims/points... :D

All of the above is opinion only!

[tw]

^ Well, to be fair, the earlier posts of adulation also (sometimes) weren't accompanied by [phrases like "in my opinion", "IMHO", "I think" etc..], although you claim they [seem to make pretty valid assumptions].

Actually I didn't want to continue this but I NEVER stated that those comments where opinions - or claims for that matter. I just wrote these were pretty valid (logical) assumptions because that the screen is bigger and brighter could be easily told from the pictures by everybody. (But note the word "assumptions" here.) If something can be seen on a picture and you write about what is obvious for everybody (for example that the screen is bigger) than it makes hardly sense to call that statement a claim or opinion.

But I think that was not the case for the other opinions/claims written by Duncan. I've pointed out in detail why I think this several times now. So I guess I should not repeat it again...

[Daniel]

I'm going to wade in here! :D

Duncan is expressing a totally valid point of view/opinion. I agree that some of what he said could turn out to be true. It is a good thing when someone offers an opinion contrary to the widely held one, because it makes us think a little about our opinions.

tw: A discussion board contains peoples opinions unless they make it clear that they have hard facts. That's the way I look at it, and not I don't think anyone needs to say "IMHO" every time they express their opinion.

Now, back to it. :)

I think the new machine looks great, I have always wanted a larger screen on my PPC, this has that. It also appears to been in a very similar form-factor to the 570, which is excellent!
The resolution issue could be a problem, but that depends on the display technology that they are using. In the current PPCs you get better resolution on the 3.5" screens than the 3.8" screens, I think Duncan was just extrapolating this.
I would prefer built in BT, but I guess Toshiba wouldn't sell as many of their BT SD cards then... ;)
I am concerned by the thumb pad, if it's on a stick that could be a point of weakness.

The 570s had 8 hour battery life according to the spec, in actuality I found that it was worse than that.

Daniel

[Duncan]

Not going to let me sleep tonight are you...!

I haven't dropped any of my points - just narrowed down to the most important ones!

Now - you use the phrase 'I believe' - absolutely! Opinions are beliefs - they can be no other! BUT - you miss some other words that could be used: I believe that the pad could be easily broken (not can) - I too wait to see if my fears are realised or not.

You know you are as guilty of unproven statements as I am - but some of yours are masquerading as facts when I have never claimed to be offering anything other than opinions:

'the screen could be even better'
it [is] much more easier to remove CF cards from the CF slot.'
'Most people don't care about BT. iPaq 3850 are selling better than iPaq 3870.'
'You're not stuck with a built-in BT 1.1 when BT 2.0 comes along'.

Prove or provide any evidence for any of these and I might not think you a hypocrite!

tw - it seems pretty obvious that you have seen this device, decided you want it, and now defend it with the zeal of new religious convert. If in a few month's time all my fears are proven groundless - I will be overjoyed. In the meantime - let people express their opinions without being charged with baseless and silly accusations of being illogical or not providing hard evidence...

[Daniel]

Hey Duncan, look at it this way, at least your post count is going up! ;)

Daniel

[tw]

My opinions were very obviously opinions. Opinions cannot always be backed up (and sometimes shouldn't be... when I tell my wife that she is beautiful I don't add: 'in my opinion'!).
If I have to tell you when I am offering an opinion, even when there is nothing else it can be - well something has to be wrong!

Come on. Don't mix things up here. That was not an obvious situation. If you write on a technical PPC board that a add-on module is the worst of all existing ones in that way you did it many readers not aware of other add-on modules could believe that you are referring to some hard facts or something and could take your statement for real. There was nothing in your statement which made it obvious that it was merely your opinion since nobody know what you (perhaps) could know about these modules. Therefore I asked to give some reasons for your statement.

Btw. that whole claim or opinion issue was not brought up by me in the first place. Though I believed indeed it was a claim if you check out my inital reply again you will see that I asked you merely to give at least reasons for your statement. I think this is ok and not insulting on a public forum to ask somebody why he writes a certain statement.

This is Pocket PC Thoughts. I offered my thoughts. I am utterly bemused as to why you should take umbrage in such a way.
Come on. If you read a enthusiast/geek/whatever-you-want-to-call-it forum like this you know that you can get critical comments if you offer your thoughts. This is what this forum was established for. Especially if you state your opinions/claims about a upcoming PPC in the way you did. Please don't complain that somebody questions your opinions on a public forum in a critical way. Then you should not write about them in the first place. I have the right to post my opinions about your opinions and I tried to stick to the facts all the time.

Disagree with me - yes; but don't attack my right to give my opinions...
Please don't resort to telling untruths. I NEVER QUESTIONED YOUR RIGHT TO GIVE YOUR OPIONIONS ANYWHERE. I never would do that and I never did. This is just plainly untrue.

[Daniel]

You know what would be good, is if you guys actually talked about the original post instead or arguing semantics.
If you're just playing last post then maybe you should indicate that this is the case. I think "did not" and "did so" save a lot of time too BTW.
If you take a look around, you'll notice that you've kind of stifled other discussion of this topic, ie the new PPC from Toshiba.
I'm not disagreeing with either of you, but don't you think that discussing this in private e-mail would be better?

Daniel

[tw]

I haven't dropped any of my points - just narrowed down to the most important ones!
Ok I'll grant that to you. :D

Now - you use the phrase 'I believe' - absolutely! Opinions are beliefs - they can be no other! BUT - you miss some other words that could be used: I believe that the pad could be easily broken (not can) - I too wait to see if my fears are realised or not.
Ok, though I didn't want to imply otherwise.

You know you are as guilty of unproven statements as I am - but some of yours are masquerading as facts when I have never claimed to be offering anything other than opinions:

'the screen could be even better'
No sorry, this is a bad example and you know it.

it [is] much more easier to remove CF cards from the CF slot.'
Hmm ok, difficult to prove for me right now. But if you try to look at it from a engineers point of view and you are told to develop a add-on module. Would you make it not to flush with the top without any reason?

'Most people don't care about BT. iPaq 3850 are selling better than iPaq 3870.'
This I was told on CeBIT during a meeting with Compaq reps. Reason is the price difference. According to them rather few people are asking for BT right now. BT APs and USB adapters or mobile phones with built-in BT are still way too expensive for the general public according to their market research. Even WLAN is cheaper. The missing native BT support in XP adds to it. That may change in the future though but not yet.

'You're not stuck with a built-in BT 1.1 when BT 2.0 comes along'.

Well this is easy. You cannot easily replace the built-in BT module in a PPC. But you can easily change one CF or SD BT card for another.


tw - it seems pretty obvious that you have seen this device, decided you want it, and now defend it with the zeal of new religious convert.
Oh no, I have not decided yet that I want it. I never do that without longer testing. I just offered my opinion on your opinion about it. Actually that was all I did.

In the meantime - let people express their opinions without being charged with baseless and silly accusations of being illogical or not providing hard evidence...

That's untrue. I let people express their opinions. I NEVER told anybody not to do that! But I see nothing wrong in asking you to give reasons for some of your statements which sounded unfounded to me. You don't have to do it. If you don't want to give them just don't do it.
But please stop complaining that I ask you about your opinions you post on a public forum and add my own opinions. I'm sorry to say that but this seems a bit silly.

[Newsboy]

I'm going to wade in here! :D


Yeah, it's getting deep. I'm gonna need my big boots pretty soon. :wink:

[Duncan]

tw,

I've wasted way too much time arguing the toss with you. Think that you're right. Think that you've proved your point. Think what you you like. You're going to anyway!

Next time someone decides to go point to point with obsevations I make and opinions I give I must remember to ignore them...

Daniel,

You are absolutely right! I posted here to talk about the new Toshiba not to get dragged into a battle of semantics. What can I say - I rose to the bait and I should have known better. Sorry. :cry:

I think you are right about why Toshiba are leaving out the BT. Rather as with the bigger screen I tend to go for the cynical explanation (usually because it turns out to be right!). BT is a wanted feature though with (and I add this for the hard of understanding only) the price premium for machines being the biggest put off factor (with the inexplicable decisions of some BT PC Card and BT USB manufacturers, to only include a small subset of BT profiles, being another).

A thought about the pad though - looking at it again I'm struck by some apparent similarities with the structure of a joypad 'stick'. A deliberate recognition of the gaming possibilities?

Speculation - Toshiba are aiming this device primarily at the consumer/gadgetty people. Big screen and joystick control to make it good for games. Another (the other rumoured device) comes along with BT and all bulit in - for the business market. Speculation ends.

[Daniel]

Yeah, it's getting deep. I'm gonna need my big boots pretty soon. :wink:

What are those full length boots that people wear when fishing called?

:)

Duncan,

I'm sure there will be some issues with it. I really love the big screen, and game aren't really that important to me. I think it's be a hard choice between this and the LOOX though.
The PPC hardware platform really needs some innovation, it's a shame that MS locks it down so hard (IMHO ;)).

Daniel

[Newsboy]

They're called hip waders. Chest waders are the ones that go all the way up. Hoping the water in NY warms up a bit soon so I can get out fly fishing again. The flys are hatching, but the waters still cold. Odd.

[Will T Smith]

Why isn't the resolution better? Sony has had a much higher resolution PDA screen for quite a while now. When are we going to see that in a Pocket PC?

Just think how great it would be to have a 300X400 screen!

It does look like a killer device though.

Jon


Agreed,

A larger, higher resolution screen would truly rock. This just makes it larger and more granulated.

Perhaps the vendors must wait for Microsoft to implement higher resolutions in PocketPC.

[Will T Smith]

...

This machine has integrated lid.

...

That's kind of madatory for me. A big screen just makes a bigger target for various screen breakers.

[Daniel]

Newsboy, they should hand out chest waders on the way into some forums... ;)

Will, I'm with you on that one. Need more screen real estate!

Daniel

[avalon]

The 'pad' - how usable is it going to be at that size? Playing with the original Genio I found the pad awkward, this one is even smaller!
The overall design is much less elegant - and I still think the button placement is very badly thought out - the far left and far right buttons require quite a reach from the centre pad.



actually the pad looks great. its a diffrent solution. You can see a bertter picture here: http://www.infosync.no/show.php?id=1706&page=3

it seems to be much better for gaming than a conventional one!

[Take1]

Duncan is expressing a totally valid point of view/opinion. I agree that some of what he said could turn out to be true. It is a good thing when someone offers an opinion contrary to the widely held one, because it makes us think a little about our opinions.


Hmmm… thinking…. After careful consideration I’d say…

Screen size is EVERYTHING on these little things, so this model looks incredible! Is it my imagination or does this screen look WAY better? The contrast and colour look way better than the older Toshiba. I think Toshiba have really got this right, big screen, looks slightly thiner than the previous model. Wow great looks, great screen.

I have seen my PDA future...and it is TOSHIBA!

[Daniel]

Wow great looks, great screen.

I have to agree with that, I think the 550 looks excellent. The (very) thin edges make the screen look even bigger! Not to mention the black plastic (?) where the buttons are.

The LOOX has some real competition! :)

Daniel

[JonnoB]

Yeah, it's getting deep. I'm gonna need my big boots pretty soon. :wink:


Some days, it just isn't worth it. You can't change people's minds.

[dma1965]

AHH, The passion, the passion!!!! :twisted: