AvantGo Custom Channels Shutting Down

[Jason Dunn]

<a href="http://ami.avantgo.com/support/mobile_support/">http://ami.avantgo.com/support/mobile_support/</a><br /><br />Special thanks to Bill Gilam and Terry Manns for bringing this to my attention. In two days, AvantGo will no longer be spidering this site and your custom channels will break:<br /><br />"Effective February 20, 2002, AvantGo Mobile Internet Service will be changing our custom channel policy. Our new Custom Channel policy is to limit access to a maximum of 8 users for most custom channels unless the content publisher has an agreement with AvantGo. Please attempt to re-subscribe to the custom channel through our website after February 20 to be one of 8 users who continues to receive the custom channel content. If you find that you can no longer subscribe to your favorite custom channel, please email the content publisher at their support email address and let them know you would like to access their content through AvantGo."<br /><br />Why is this happening you might ask? Here's why:<br /><br />AvantGo sells middleware solutions - they have servers that they want to sell to your big company. These servers dish out your corporate content in a mobile device friendly fashion. This is one way that AvantGo makes money - this server solution is likely $10K plus. The other way that AvantGo makes money is by offering companies like Rolling Stone the ability to push out news &amp; ads to customers. Rolling Stone gets listed in the official AvantGo channels list, people click to add the channel, and Rolling Stone gets to extend their branding. For a while, Pocket PC Thoughts was listed in the official AvantGo channel list as well. <br /><br />Why aren't we listed there any more?<br /><br />Buried deep in the fine print of the AvantGo partner sign up process is a little gem that states the following: it's free to be a channel partner <b>until you hit 5000 subscribers</b>. Once you hit 5000 subscribers, you as the partner have to pay $5000 US plus a certain amount per subscriber beyond 5000 (when they sent me the bill I believe it was 20 cents per subscriber). When AvantGo presented me with a bill for $6000 US, I had no choice but to say "pull my official channel from your site". The other Pocket PC web sites you see listed in their official channel list are either too small (under 5000) to get hit with this charge, or they've made a special agreement with AvantGo (like Smaller.com did way back when). So what happened when AvantGo pulled my site from their channel listing? All subscribers got a "Site not found" error in AvantGo.<br /><br />You, being the smart readers you are, then switched to the "custom channel" option in AvantGo where you could point AvantGo to any web site and say "make this content available for me on my Pocket PC". I estimate there's around 8000 of you who did this with Pocket PC Thoughts, and I'm sure I'm not the only site that has smart readers. AvantGo finally had enough of this, and they're banner any custom channel with more than eight users on it.<br /><br /><i><b>Bottom line:</b> in 48 hours it will be impossible for you to use AvantGo to read this web site.</i><br /><br />The solution? <a href="http://www.mazingo.net">Mazingo</a>. Despite it's quirks and rough edges, Mazingo is the best solution for getting this site onto your device.<br /><br />Here's a further explanation from AvantGo as to why they're doing this:<br /><br />"Just as these organizations pay their ISPs to host their website content and their dial-up or TCP/IP providers to deliver business e-mail, AvantGo is now asking that Custom Channel providers with more than eight subscribers to help support the cost of delivering a mobile version of their content and/or applications to those users."<br /><br />I don't begrudge AvantGo wanting to make money and stay in business. But for a site like mine, their "service" is pointless. The opening page of this site is designed to fit onto a Pocket PC screen. It doesn't need any "middleware tweaking". In fact, AvantGo has consistently ticked me off by messing with the HTML code and creating weird spacing where none should exist. They don't even support transparent GIFs! Mazingo has the right concept: the "pulling" is done by the local PC with local bandwidth, not by some server.<br /><br />And there you have it. Remember we're <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=53">still working</a> on getting a new template up and running that will make the discussion forums look good on a Pocket PC. Until that happens, those of you doing mobile sync should stick to the "lite" version of the Mazingo channel.

[JonnoB]

I can understand the logic... but they should reconsider their business model. They are seeking money from the wrong side IMO.

[wiredguy]

Great news for Mazingo :). AvantGo is going to lose a lot of webmaster interest with this announcement.

[Dave Conger]

I saw on the PDAbuzz message boards about an AvantGo shutdown, but didn't read the post because I didn't think it was really about something at AvantGo literally shutdown just a problem or something. This is really a big deal (which I am sure you realize) simply because a lot of people use AvantGo because it was included with their device, and use the custome channels. We have been seeing a lot of ads lately (atleast i have) on AvantGo, so I though they must be making some money off us.

[Bruno]

This was the last drop!!

I am quitting ALL my avantgo subscriptions as of today.

Why didnt Microsoft make a working version of Windows CE channels instead of supporting this crap company.

Well I will adwise all my customers to stay away from avantgo.

[jfrancis]

Why didnt Microsoft make a working version of Windows CE channels instead of supporting this crap company.


I agree wholeheartedly! If Mobile Favourites actually worked properly there would be much less need for AvantGo and Mazingo. Lets hope iSilo gets ported from the Palm sooner rather than later.

JF

[carphead]

I see the reasoning behind this. I'm kind of confused as why Avantgo have gone down the advertising or pay for the content providers.

Why not offer a subscribtion model for the end users? Doesn't really make that much sense to the individual does it. I guess once they've got a foot in the door with a corp they perhaps figure they can offer more products to them.

I'd quite happily pay a sub fee to have custom channels enabled. Not much but certainly the speed of Avantgo would make me more willing to pay a sub fee than it does with Mazingo.

Still Mazingo is a very fine product the only problem is that it's only as quick as your Internet Interconnects are.

Regards,
Daniel

[bjornkeizers]

This sucks damnit! Will Mazingo support our custom channels? I sure hope so because I have some Kick Ass customs i'd hate to lose because of this crap.

[Daniel]

I would also pay a small monthly subscription to have this enabled.

I just wish Mazingo integrated with ActiveSync instead of being a separate app. It would also be cool if they added their own link to IE and totally replaced AvantGo.

I think I'll dich my account too.

daniel

[st63z]

Mazingo's custom channels are IMHO still missing one feature -- the ability to restrict downloading of off-site pages. This makes a huge difference for some sites. I'd emailed Bill Dettering and he said this is in the works but gave no ETA (though I'm always impressed by Bill's prompt, personal customer service to individuals).

My email mentioned slashdot.org as an example. The predefined channel often doesn't work 100% for me, it often fails (to varying degrees) to pull in all the pages it should. Sometimes I get 2 pages deep of news blurbs, sometimes 3, sometimes 4, and the individual top ten comments for each blurb aren't always there (it's like 50-50 crapshoot). Normally, when a link isn't supposed to be downloaded, if you click on it Mazingo will pop up a message asking if you want to go online in PIE and access the page. But these links that I'm talking about don't do anything when I click on them, which isn't normal behavior. So I'm not sure if Mazingo really didn't download them, or if they are there already and it's simply a problem with the PPC viewer trying to access them...?

Truthfully this prolly isn't Mazingo's fault and may be a problem from the site itself. But I'm just not sure how Mazingo's predefined channels are configured (anybody know?). So I tried pulling in slashdot as a custom channel to see if it would be more reliable. Unfortunately I forgot that slashdot's news blurbs are very liberally sprinkled with off-site links. So with a custom channel of link depth 4, the channel size grew to something like 8MB+ (it may have stopped prematurely). I had also tried a link depth of 6 (which doesn't seem to be officially supported but works for now), and it filled my CF card up to 120MB+ before it ran out of space :(

BTW, a ZDNet review of Mazingo liked the service but also wanted to see it integrated into ActiveSync and PIE in the future. While it sounds like a good idea, I'm not sure Mazingo will do it at this point since they've seemed to put in *a lot* of work into fixing/optimizing their proprietary desktop sync applet and PPC viewer.


P.S. Luckily I don't have any AvantGo custom channels set up so this announcement won't affect me much :)

[Marc Zimmermann]

I just wish Mazingo integrated with ActiveSync instead of being a separate app.

Right. As long as they just pop up and get on my nerves with a new window whenever a device connects (regardless of whether this device has the Mazingo client), I will not use it. It's just too annoying. Give me an ActiveSync provider and I'll happily leave AvantGo behind.

[EllenBeeman]

Looks like the latest version of Mazingo is actually working on my Ipaq, yayy!

If any Mazingo people are reading this...before you pull an "Avantgo" on all of us, please ask people whether they'd be willing to pay for your service! I've talked with the Avantgo people about this, and I have no idea why they won't consider a consumer-supported service.

---Ell

[Mr. Anonymous]

Actually, it looks like the first 8 people that make a custom channel for PocketPCThoughts.com will be allowed to subscribe. Custom channels are still there, but limited to 8 (out of, say, 10 million devices with Avantgo?) subscribers per domain. I wonder what counts as a domain (would test.pocketpcthoughts.com and test1.pocketpcthoughts.com count as seperate domains?). I'm also wondering if I could just set up a link to PocketPCThoughts.com on a dummy page on my personal website and then make a custom channel to that...

Now that I take a look at my Avantgo account, I don't currently subscribe to any custom channels. It's too bad that Mobile Favorites don't really work (at least they break often for me).

[Ivan]

Assuming Mazingo can fix all these minor quirks and become just as, or an even better solution than Avantgo... how long 'till Avantgo slaps Mazingo with a lawsuit for infringing their newly awarded patent for server synchronization (why the U.S. patent office awarded Avantgo such a patent in the first place is beyond me). :?

[EllenBeeman]

Mr. Anon, it also just occurred to me, that idea about creating a links page. I can see doing this one better...setting up a server where people have individual domains that actually contain the content they want, so if Avantgo decides to limit off-site links for people's custom pages, it won't matter. Wouldn't be a hard thing for my programmers to do.

[yup]

...get a WLAN card /wireless modem card and use the goddam Pocket Internet Exploder (tm) to browse the site. The whole AvantGo crap was suited for eons ago when the only way to get content to your PDA was via some crap syncing soft.

After giving it a 30 sec try I removed all the Avantgo soft from my 3870. End of story.


Geez guys, get a life ;)

[puithove]

I like Mazingo despite the fact that it has a seperate sync software (I played with it when it was in it's early stages and thought 'Why don't they do an Activesync plug-in?') and despite the fact that it is SLOW starting with just a few channels (I've heard that they increased the speed lately, but I haven't tried it since). I like it because it allows the content to be displayed how the webmaster wants it displayed.

However, I have a bigger problem - Their software doesn't work through the proxy server at my work. This is a major killer for me. If I can't sync with it at work it's useless. I sent an e-mail to their tech support but never got a response back.

[H]

Sounds like a great opportunity for someone to put a rival service together. Can't be that difficult, most of the technical mechanism is in place anyhow.

As for AvantGo, I can't help feeling this might be a big mistake. Seems to happen to a lot of companies in this industry... Ashton Tate anyone? Borland, Microsoft, Lotus, IBM... The list is endless!

8O

[fmcpherson]

The way AvantGo is going, they may be out of business soon. I've been trying to get a salesman to call me about their enterprise products for two weeks, and still haven't heard a word.

[JMountford]

I stopped using Avant Go months ago!!! I hate what they do to the sites. To be honest Mazingo will have a much better product once they get all the bugs out.

I am just worried that Avant Go is setting up to sue them with the whole patent thing.

[carphead]

Avantgo vs Mazingo.

Regards,I doubt any judge would allow Avantgo to kill Mazingo based on the patent. From what I've read they've patented the technology of a server cached sync technology.

Mazingo in theory makes use of *Quicker* locally ISP Cached pages. Using only the Mazingo Server to check your account settings.

ACTIVESYNC Provider.

I prefer the way Mazingo is now. You can have option to sync quickly (with out Mazingo running) or a full sync. The only thing I would love to see with Mazingo is the option to sync at a certain time (with out the PPC connected) and the to update the PPC when it connects. I could set my work machine to sync at 5am and then upload everything to the IPAQ when I get in.

Daniel

[spg]

Uggh, AvantGo! Come on, what type of move is that! What about those sites who can't afford the more expensive fee. I know you can use Mazingo, but it seems so much slower to sync! I would like Mazingo better if they could get the bugs worked out, but right now I prefer AvantGo. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

[JMountford]

Thanks Carphead, I was under the impression that Avant Go has quite a few patents and that only one was disclosed to the public, hence my apprehension for Mazingo.

[EllenBeeman]

I think Avantgo would have a hard time in court if they did try to sue Mazingo, since effectively what they'd be doing is using their patent to block people from accessing content that's not created by Avantgo and in fact is copyrighted to other people and companies. That's the sort of "free speech" constitutional challenge that might get the EFF and ACLU involved.

[Kemas]

I am not patent expert, but from what I have seen lately Patents can have a great deal of power. For expample, the current law suit by BT to try and claim rights to every hyperlink in existance in the world! If they win, every web site, ISP, company and so on will have to pay a royalty. The law suit and the judge will not get to use common sense on this issue, simple precedent and previous litigation; as well as BT prooving they did it first, which is in contention.

My point, one does really exist. If this is even legall possible and many lawyers say it is; then if AvantGo has the right patents they could win a battle against Mazingo. One would think that Mazingo would have checked this all out before going live. I wouldn't not use them because of it though. If there were a lawsuit and they lost, I would just not use AvantGo. I would also think AvantGo would have already filed suit against Mazingo; unless they have their head in the sand, they know about it and are probably trying to decide which is best.

Someone, who knows better than I, might be able to tell us if there is anything about AvantGo that might affect Mazingo, leagally speaking. I don't think Mazingo is using servers the way AvantGo is at the moment. Patents, they are a weird breed of cat open to a great deal of interpretation. In the end, I think worrying about it is a non-issue. Mazingo is one of hte best apps to hit Pocket PCs and I will continue to use it. I'm just happy I am a charter member.

[JMountford]

I am also a charter member of Mazingo. That is why I am worried about them. As for the Avantgo patents I think they only turned up recently. Mazingo had been live for a while. The patents are deffinately a way for Avantgo to Go after any competition. They certainly can't compete on any kind of fair basis. Here's hoping Mazingo has their bases covered.

[Jason Dunn]

how long 'till Avantgo slaps Mazingo with a lawsuit for infringing their newly awarded patent for server synchronization


The key word here is "server" - there is no Mazingo server, and thus they're immune to any lawsuit from AvantGo.

[JohnnyFlash]

This is really a big deal (which I am sure you realize) simply because a lot of people use AvantGo because it was included with their device


Please put "Mazingo" on all your sites everywhere so that people will learn about Mazingo!!!! Indeed, it will be a problem to overcome this problem with "Avantgo is preinstalled on PocketPC 2002" problem...

jpzr from http://WirelessSoftware.info

[JohnnyFlash]

P.S. Luckily I don't have any AvantGo custom channels set up so this announcement won't affect me much :)


don't be so sure!!! several current Avantgo FULL channels could be dumped by Avantgo because they are NOT PAYING ANYTHING to Avantgo. I know of some of such channells, and I know that when asked to be paid they will say "no!!!! we go away to mazingo".

[JohnnyFlash]

...get a WLAN card /wireless modem card and use the goddam Pocket Internet Exploder (tm) to browse the site. The whole AvantGo crap was suited for eons ago when the only way to get content to your PDA was via some crap syncing soft.


I have WLAN card for my iPAQ and I still use Mazingo !!!!
Offline is cool.

[JohnnyFlash]

However, I have a bigger problem - Their software doesn't work through the proxy server at my work. This is a major killer for me. If I can't sync with it at work it's useless. I sent an e-mail to their tech support but never got a response back.


and my mazingo IS WORKIG through proxy serwer at office!!!
I simply has not entered any proxy and it took the default from the computer. 100% positive that it works through proxy!! (maybe fetch latest software)

[JohnnyFlash]

The way AvantGo is going, they may be out of business soon. I've been trying to get a salesman to call me about their enterprise products for two weeks, and still haven't heard a word.


yes, the same with me: I have just received once, after big delays, 1 email with "we will propose you cost structure"... "cost"? go away!

[kettle]

does anyone know if Plucker works on the Pocket PC?

[Ivan]

The key word here is "server" - there is no Mazingo server, and thus they're immune to any lawsuit from AvantGo.


Alas... but just read the abstract (and full text) of the patent:

System, method, and computer program product for synchronizing content between a server and a client based on state information


Abstract
Described herein are systems, methods, computer program products, and combinations and sub-combinations thereof, for enabling web content (as well as other objects) to be loaded on mobile devices (as well as other types of devices), and for users of mobile devices to operate with such web content on their mobile devices in an interactive manner while in an off-line mode.

It indicates "content between a server and a client, not Avantgo's server and a client... and the abstract (and subsequent full text) seem to indicate that the process of facilitating the synchronization of content to mobile devices (from the server providing the content?) is what's covered under this patent.

Then again I'm not an attorney... I hope I'm wrong. Patents of this type are simply ludicrous.

[nz0eBoy]

... As for the Avantgo patents I think they only turned up recently. Mazingo had been live for a while...


I am only a man of science, so my only experience of patent law is being screwed whenever I try to patent things.

ANyway one of the things I have been caught on in the past is that as soon as you sell anything it becomes public arena, if you have not applied for a patent before this then you will not be granted one. Er go it would seem that Avantgo has applied for a patent before they started selling their service (either that or the Patent Office has messed up again), hence the argument of Mazingo being live for a while does not work.

My take on things, but then NZ patent law is bound to be different from US Patent law.

[Kemas]

I think you can sell your product or service for one year before worrying about the patent; after one year, you can't do anything. I believe, patent pending must be supplied prior to 12 months from launch of service. If two launch, the first one out of the gate gets priority, but if only one applies...

THe big question is this, did AvantGo invent this? One could state that Microsoft was doing that with their service built into IE. If that is true, the patent AvantGo, in this regard, is useless. The patent holder must have invented the concept or bought it from the inventor.

Any lawyers in this thread?

Kemas

[JonnoB]

With patents, any 'prior art' is absent restriction. With IE and the offline synchronization makes this patent meaningless. I am not a lawyer, although my mother said I should have been one since I skillfully argued my way out of messes so many times.

[JMountford]

All I know is US Patent laws are a fishy Business and patents are frickin Expensive. Lord knows There are several ideas I would like to get patented. On top of that intelectual property is even more vauge. So theoretically Avantgo could sue for bits and pieces of infringement.

Also as stated a Patent can be applied for after a product is allready on the market, it is just stupid to wait because w/o one you are not protected. Now there is a Patent Pending status but honestly it does not mean a whole lot until the patent goes through.

[Kilmerr]

Only a matter of time, heard hints of this 6 months ago. But understandable, why waste their bandwith on people who don't pay? If the service is free, site owner pays for access to a huge market. Why is said site owner paying for his/her own content? They aren't...they are paying for the market and the compressional fast format. Wonder why they even offered custom channels in the first place? Seems more and more tho, that the expense charged is not paying off for AvantGo customers. When ABC News offed AvantGo knew only a matter of time. The biggies have been abandoning the AvantGo ship for quite awhile now And their middleware pricing is literally crazy.

But a place for both AvantGo and Mazingo. But AvantGo seems to be following a dot.com biz model. If they tank, someone can pick it up for pennies on the dollar. Lawsuits? Well that would backfire as it would just make more people AWARE of an option and make more people aware of the market, and more would rush to fill things. The market is never realized by legal fiat. You think Netscape is gonna sue itself back to market share? Dobeserious. :)

Mazingo is great, but since it is pull, way way slower, thankfully mutil-threading tho. AvantGo still pulls in channels in about half the time. Mazingo is great per broadband, but dial-up still a royal pain. Site owners love it, but site users, well...divided.

That having been said, I still use Mazingo 15x more than Avantgo...

Tho that 'force the icon' on my Start Menu deal has to go. :)

[carphead]

The full text of the patent is at this url

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ft00&s1=avantgo&OS=avantgo&RS=avantgo

Reading the patent it looks like Avantgo patented (?) the technology of...

Client -> Server -> Content -> Server -> Client

So Client asks for content. Server retrieves content checks it against last retrieved content from Provider. If it's changed alters it to suit (ie adverts and formating) then sents it to client.

Avantgo goes....

Client -> Desktop PC -> Checkers account -> Desktop PC Retreives content and reformats the page -> Client.

Quite different really. If Avantgo want to get picky they could say that almost every offline reader did a similar sort of this.

I've had a bit of legal training (before giving it up - boring :) ) and I'm pretty sure any lawyer wouldn't take this on. The two technolgies are wrong.

Regards.
Daniel

[Tari Akpodiete]

i've never really been big on AvantGo. however, i am afraid that i have to disagree with the concept that they are screwing people over. these are general thoughts, so nobody think that i am singling them out. lately lots of places have been complaining about AvantGo, so i am speaking generaly now:

until recently, one could get up to 5000 subscribers free, right? and then AvantGo charges, right? exactly what is the problem with that? would it be better that they become another dot com casualty? i think not. they have to make money, and they are giving somethng away for free, basically something for everyone.

it is not the fault of AvantGo, if a site which wishes to use their services says "we're a hobby site, we don't make money so it's not fair that you want us to pay to use your service". either use the service or don't. you have to pay to play.

if you don't like their services and/or their business plan, don't use them. it's as simple as that. why rake them over the coals because they think that you should pay to use their service up and beyond 5 000 users? their business plan isn't unfair. everyone wants to get paid, but no one wants to pay. is it better that they go under?

if you're getting 10 or 20 or 30 thousand people a day coming to your site, you're not a hobby site, even if you'd like to think you are. i can speak on this because i have been in this situation more than once. the internet isn't free, even if people would like to think that it is. having a successful site is wonderful and it makes you feel good. however, one has to understand what having a popular site really means.

i, myself, have a couple of sites with out of this world traffic, including the very popular pocket pc entertainment site, PocketRocketFX.com. the downloads on that site have been unreal, and it only took me 10 days online with it to get a clue as to the realities of internet economics, traffic and bandwidth.

luckily, Mazingo is an alternative, and it continues to improve. however, be aware that if you get a lot of visitors to your Mazingo pages, that will increase your traffic and bandwidth and possibly your costs. if you're paying by the gigabyte, as many people are, you're going to get a nice big bill from your hosting company, and a better understanding of what it really costs to run a site.

[Jason Dunn]

Good points Tari, but the key problem with AvantGo is that they don't allow the users to pay for the privilege of using AvantGo with a certain web site. They charge the WEB SITE, which is unworkable for a site like mine. But would Pocket PC Thoughts readers be willing to pay $1 month to view the site via AvantGo? Probably quite a few would...yet AvantGo doesn't offer that option.

I don't begrudge anyone making a buck, but AvantGo's business model is fundamentally screwed up from my point of view. :?

[gateway]

I have been bring web content to the pda for some time now with my adult sites. We have tried with out much success to get a private channel in Avantgo system. They just have a screwed up business model and I dont see why they charge content providers money. For example a strip club wouldnt be around if there wernt any girls to work there would it ?

anyhow.. .. we have something under our sleves :)

also we are looking for an exprienced Programmer to work with us on a top secret project.

check out http://www.visionary-design.com/jobs.html

[Scott R]

Good points Tari, but the key problem with AvantGo is that they don't allow the users to pay for the privilege of using AvantGo with a certain web site. They charge the WEB SITE, which is unworkable for a site like mine. But would Pocket PC Thoughts readers be willing to pay $1 month to view the site via AvantGo? Probably quite a few would...yet AvantGo doesn't offer that option.

I don't begrudge anyone making a buck, but AvantGo's business model is fundamentally screwed up from my point of view. :?

Jason, if you think that users would be willing to pay $1/month to get your site, why not charge them yourself? Then you could pay the AvantGo bill and everyone would be happy? Unfortunately, I doubt that you would get 5000 people to pay $1/month. As Tari pointed out, most users are relatively lazy and cheap and feel (right or wrong) that for every good site that charges a subscription cost, there's an equally good one that won't. Well, Tari didn't quite put it into those words. ;)

Sadly, I think web sites are losing out on advertising revenue for exactly the same reasons that they are, in many ways, superior to television advertising. Basically, your advertisers have the ability to track who and how many people click on your advertising links, and they've discovered that not many people do. This has led them to believe (probably correctly) that web site advertising isn't worth what they were paying for it. What they don't seem to realize is that television advertising isn't worth anywhere near what they pay for it. Yet, they can't really track it the way they can with web sites. So the television networks continue to prosper based upon this fantasy while good web sites suffer.

Scott

[Tari Akpodiete]

moving from general to specific: sorry you're having problems, Jason, but i don't think it is wrong for them to charge website owners. of course, that makes some people unhappy, but as i said don't use the service if you don't like it, and that includes the free portion. basically, lots of people are saying that it is a great service until one has to pay to use it.

now, maybe they could have a different kind of fee structure (like less for indie sites like SAG does for indie productions). and maybe they could charge 25 cents per channel to the visitors, or do a revenue sharing thing with premium content channels like i think they are doing over at Mazingo.

website owners could always charge website visitors, but we all know what cheap whining bastards most of them are don't we when we ask them for a nominal fee to cover expenses (except when it comes to the ante up for porno content)?

and if anyone is offended at the above 'cheap whining bastard characterization' (because they think i mean them) they should ask themselves 1. "when is the last time i clicked on a PayPal button to give a site donation?" 2. what was my reaction when asked to help out?

[jrappold]

I've setup a number of custom AVantGo channels for public users and as part of our office intranet. Looks like I'll be ditching them, which is too bad, as we have tried to support both Palm and Pocket Pc users, and AvantGo has made this easy. I know Mazingo is working on a client to support Palm OS, and I hope it comes soon, because Mazingo is what we will be using

As far as lawsuits...Mobipocket has been syncing their news channels almost as long as AvantGo has and I don't think they are in any more danger than Mazingo would be. At one time Mobipocket promised to release an SDK so that webmasters could get their content into their format, but I don't think it has ever been released. All I know is that it uses XML to format sites into eBook format. I hope one day to utilize that service as well as Mazingo.

[Dave Conger]

Just got a little notice from Mazingo. Looks like they are definatly going to try and "capitalize" on the AvantGo service changes.


Have you gotten your notice about no more custom channels from Avantgo?

Want to publish for free? Migrate your community to Mazingo now. Unlimited subscribers - no limit on content downloads - ability to monetize YOUR content with Mazingo Premium.

Turn on your Mazingo Channel today and let your community know about us -

www.Mazingo.net

[frouaix]

A previous reader noted that if Mobile favorites worked better, we could use that feature to read the site offline.
What is it exactly that doesn't work in Mobile favorites ?
I thought the only circumstance when it behaves incorrectly is on pages that have heavy "no cache" headers (pragma no cache, content-cache, etc...).

[Daniel]

Just got a little notice from Mazingo. Looks like they are definatly going to try and "capitalize" on the AvantGo service changes.

Can't blame them for trying though!

Again, I just don't like the popup window factor. I know it's a lame reason not to use an otherwise good service, I just like things like that to be unobtrusive.

daniel

[Boxster S]

Mazingo just takes to friggen long to download. Avantgo takes 30 seconds for me to sync. I just installed this Mazingo crap and it is STILL loading stuff 5 mins later...ARGH!!! :evil:

[Jason Dunn]

Mazingo just takes to friggen long to download. Avantgo takes 30 seconds for me to sync. I just installed this Mazingo crap and it is STILL loading stuff 5 mins later...ARGH!!! :evil:


It's not surprising when you understand the reason why: AvantGo pushes the content down to you in a compressed format from their servers. Mazingo is fetching live data off live servers, all in real time. The speed is very dependant on how fast the web site your hitting can serve up the data. Something to keep in mind. :)

[Boxster S]

Mazingo just takes to friggen long to download. Avantgo takes 30 seconds for me to sync. I just installed this Mazingo crap and it is STILL loading stuff 5 mins later...ARGH!!! :evil:


It's not surprising when you understand the reason why: AvantGo pushes the content down to you in a compressed format from their servers. Mazingo is fetching live data off live servers, all in real time. The speed is very dependant on how fast the web site your hitting can serve up the data. Something to keep in mind. :)

I dunno know about you, but when I need to go somewhere, I like to be able to drop the Jornada in the cradle and be out the door in a minute or so.

I guess I'll just have to deal with it :(

[JohnnyFlash]

Mazingo just takes to friggen long to download. Avantgo takes 30 seconds for me to sync. I just installed this Mazingo crap and it is STILL loading stuff 5 mins later...ARGH!!! :evil:


if you would have broadband connection then you would not complain about speed of Mazingo: buy yourself DSL or cable modem ! I have broadband and mazingo synchronizes superfast!

[Dave Conger]

Can't blame them for trying though!


Actually I finally took the time to make a mobile channel of my site right before I got that email (my channel doesn't even compare to Jasons, but oh well). Though I have always used AvantGo, if they are going to be like this, then I want to put more support into Mazingo.

[jfrancis]

I've been doing a bit of research and come up with this program - Teleport Pro.

http://www.tenmax.com/teleport/pro/home.htm

It's a very sophisticated web spider that dumps all the files from a specified URL (and a user defined number of links) directly into a local filesystem folder. It'll fix up all the links for offline browsing, and has a scheduler built-in.

Sounds like it could be a useful replacement. It's a lot more friendly than SiteScooper ;-)

Works great with Pocket IE (and Starbuck, which'll read the zipped folder) on sites that are already PDA friendly, see www.plinkit.com et al.

Nearsite does something similar, but you have to export the files to use them.

http://www.nearsite.com/

John

[JohnnyFlash]

:wink: Well, the UK based web site TheRegister ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/24123.html ) clearly knows where to go for high quality information (last paragraph).

[spg]

:wink: Well, the UK based web site TheRegister ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/24123.html ) clearly knows where to go for high quality information (last paragraph).


Way to go register! 8)

[krusi]

Does anyone know of a RSS reader for Pocket PC, this would allow immediate access to content from thousands of sites.

[Jason Dunn]

:wink: Well, the UK based web site TheRegister ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/24123.html ) clearly knows where to go for high quality information (last paragraph).


&lt;blush> :oops: That's pretty fun to see this site mentioned on the Register. :-)

[CoffeeKid]

Avantgo says it decided not to sue abusers as it has "no intention of antagonising customers".

huh. Sue "abusers". "don't antagonise users".

Is this company REALLY that far out to lunch? To even think they could sue, much less label people who may set up a custom channel as "abusers"?

[Tari Akpodiete]

um, 'abusers' may be a bit of a heavy term, but you will note that many people circumvented the situation. in other words, knowing the rules, they found ways to get out of paying. and they got their visitors to help them do this. of course, Avantgo did leave a loophole. perhaps it was stupid of them to expect that once they asked people to pay, people who wanted the service but who didn't want to pay, would search for a way to get around it. now, apparently, the loophole is closed. let's say that Avantgo decided to charge the website visitors rather the website owners. how many would pay a dollar or even 25 cents? none, you can bet. and they'd whine about being asked to pay. just like they always do. like i said: everyone wants service, but no one wants to pay.

[Scott R]

One thing that wasn't made clear (AFAIK) on any of the sites reporting this news, is that the "outlandish" figures being bandied about are annual costs, not monthly. While this is still too expensive for a "hobbyist" site owner to justify paying, if you have that many readers, you also probably have advertising (i.e. - income). So, this kind of annual cost isn't completely out of line if you're getting value from the AvantGo service.

That said, sites like this one usually have the owner as the designer (or a small group of talented, young, cheaply paid - if paid at all - volunteers). These sorts of sites would obviously be better off spending the time creating a version of the site which is customized for PDAs. Plus, that way, they get it to look exactly right instead of hoping that AvantGo squeezes it nicely. The sites that are going to pay AvantGo are companies that are typically paying outside web designers $100+/hour and don't want to invest in the significant costs of paying these designers a large sum of money to create a specialized version of their site.

Scott

[JMountford]

I think it is all just ludicrous anyway. If you don't like it don't use it. It is not hard at all to make a PPC friendly site. I would say much easier than making a site for the PC.

[spg]

One thing that wasn't made clear (AFAIK) on any of the sites reporting this news, is that the "outlandish" figures being bandied about are annual costs, not monthly. While this is still too expensive for a "hobbyist" site owner to justify paying, if you have that many readers, you also probably have advertising (i.e. - income). So, this kind of annual cost isn't completely out of line if you're getting value from the AvantGo service.

That said, sites like this one usually have the owner as the designer (or a small group of talented, young, cheaply paid - if paid at all - volunteers). These sorts of sites would obviously be better off spending the time creating a version of the site which is customized for PDAs. Plus, that way, they get it to look exactly right instead of hoping that AvantGo squeezes it nicely. The sites that are going to pay AvantGo are companies that are typically paying outside web designers $100+/hour and don't want to invest in the significant costs of paying these designers a large sum of money to create a specialized version of their site.


Most sites develop a mobile optimized page no matter what service they use. Yahoo, MSN and others all have created mobile optimized sites. AvantGo is built to shrink the size of file(as in bytes), not shrink it to fit on a PDA screen! And if you create a mobile optimized site, you still have to have a service like AvantGo or Mazingo to deliver it to the PDA.

[jfrancis]

Can anybody with a PPC 2002 device confirm or deny that the PIE Mobile Channels offline sync problems have been fixed?

JF

[Pete Wilson]

Installed Mazingo and so far...

Slower sync than AvantGo.

Much slower display of Pocket PC Thoughts page - not responsive while generating display - takes over button presses too.

Pocket PC Thoughts page has horizontal scrollbar - due to banner on top - why? I thought this page was designed for Mazingo/AvantGo.

Doesn't work properly in landscape mode.

ActiveSync producing GP faults since I installed it - not sure if its related yet.

[Dave Conger]

Installed Mazingo and so far...


Yeah, I feel like I have noticed the little bugs in Mazingo, but Mazingo seems to still be kind of under development. I am sure now that they are going to get many of AvantGo's visitors they will want to make a more robust client. I feel good about my switch to Mazingo, and hope that they continue to refine themselves for us.

[mike6024]

Isn't the avantgo version of PocketPCThought's supposed to not be working? So why is mine still working?

[Pete Wilson]

ACTIVESYNC Provider.

I prefer the way Mazingo is now. You can have option to sync quickly (with out Mazingo running) or a full sync. The only thing I would love to see with Mazingo is the option to sync at a certain time (with out the PPC connected) and the to update the PPC when it connects. I could set my work machine to sync at 5am and then upload everything to the IPAQ when I get in.

Daniel


If you have a recent version of Mazingo you can setup a scheduled task to do this:
see http://www.mazingo.net/pc/user_guide.htm#scheduling

[st63z]

^ I never tried this, but does the autoload thingie require that you leave the PPC in the cradle overnight also? Or can Mazingo download the channel contents to your desktop PC first then copies it to the PPC later after you put it in the cradle (all without the use of a flash card reader)?

[gregh]

so can anyone confirm wether avantgo has stopped working? In between iPAQS at the moment (awaiting a 3870) so have a temp 3630 and not sure wether to bother setting up avantgo or not!

maybe they have just stopped new people being added but existing channels will work?

cheers,

greg

[Dave Conger]

so can anyone confirm wether avantgo has stopped working? In between iPAQS at the moment (awaiting a 3870) so have a temp 3630 and not sure wether to bother setting up avantgo or not!


I just synced my device (already had an AvantGo profile setup) and looked at the channels....mine all synced. This site shows up updated as well as my own site (which I know is a custom channel). That is just mine though, but I wouldn't think I am the only one still getting service... :wink:

[spg]

so can anyone confirm wether avantgo has stopped working? In between iPAQS at the moment (awaiting a 3870) so have a temp 3630 and not sure wether to bother setting up avantgo or not!


I just synced my device (already had an AvantGo profile setup) and looked at the channels....mine all synced. This site shows up updated as well as my own site (which I know is a custom channel). That is just mine though, but I wouldn't think I am the only one still getting service... :wink:


All my custom channels still appear to be working. I haven't noticed any cutting off.

[zucchini]

yah, me too! i can still read the latest news from Pocket PC thoughts! no problem so far!

what happen?

[Dave Conger]

yah, me too! i can still read the latest news from Pocket PC thoughts! no problem so far!

what happen?


Services don't always shutdown when they say they will. Sometimes it takes them a while to build a new version of their software that actually cuts them off. I think the best bet is to start using Mazingo as well so when it does get cutoff you won't have nothing, but will have Mazingo ready to go.

[spg]

yah, me too! i can still read the latest news from Pocket PC thoughts! no problem so far!

what happen?


Services don't always shutdown when they say they will. Sometimes it takes them a while to build a new version of their software that actually cuts them off. I think the best bet is to start using Mazingo as well so when it does get cutoff you won't have nothing, but will have Mazingo ready to go.


True but I am kinda suprised that it hasn't happened yet. After all the hubub about it you would think they would cut it off when they say they will. Maybe they decided it was a bad idea and are trying to decide if they should change it. :roll: Ok, so we can always dream :)!

[Dave Conger]

True but I am kinda suprised that it hasn't happened yet. After all the hubub about it you would think they would cut it off when they say they will. Maybe they decided it was a bad idea and are trying to decide if they should change it. :roll: Ok, so we can always dream :)!


They could be trying to find another marketing plan for it (though I fear there would still be money involved). I really am not to worried with AvantGo anymore. Though it is easy to use and integrates well with IE, Mazingo is working out for me right now so I am sticking with that I think.

[Pete Wilson]

^ I never tried this, but does the autoload thingie require that you leave the PPC in the cradle overnight also? Or can Mazingo download the channel contents to your desktop PC first then copies it to the PPC later after you put it in the cradle (all without the use of a flash card reader)?


It seems like it still downloaded some new pages, but it really was faster than when I didn't have autoload working.

That may be a coincidence, of course :-)

[damian]

Avantgo.com seem to treat you better over that side of the pond - here in the UK they won't even let you in the door without paying $5000!
I am glad I read this article because I will go back to avantgo and ask why we can't set things up and see if we get 5000 customers.
I'll tell you how I get on.

[Dave Conger]

Because of what kind of service AvantGo has, I do find this whole "charge the provider" thing a little odd. I would think AvantGo would be trying to charge the consumer since there are more consumers using the service then providers. Either way they loose customers or money, but customers that have grown attached will probably pay a small fee to keep it around where as if AvantGo causes content providers to no longer support their serivce, customers will have to switch to something like Mazingo to get what they want.

[spg]

Because of what kind of service AvantGo has, I do find this whole "charge the provider" thing a little odd. I would think AvantGo would be trying to charge the consumer since there are more consumers using the service then providers. Either way they loose customers or money, but customers that have grown attached will probably pay a small fee to keep it around where as if AvantGo causes content providers to no longer support their serivce, customers will have to switch to something like Mazingo to get what they want.


Very true. I do think that while this charge the provider deal has caused alot of upset, charging the consumer would get an even worse reception. If AvantGo had started charging consumers I seriously doubt that anyone would be using AvantGo today. They might have a few people willing to pay, but most consumers are used to that type of info being available for free.