Samsung DLP HDTV's - Thoughts?

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.samsungusa.com/pdf/DLP_Brochure.pdf' target='_blank'>http://www.samsungusa.com/pdf/DLP_Brochure.pdf</a><br /><br /></div>Five years ago, I purchased a 51" Hitachi TV (I love watching movies), and while it has served me very well, it's time for an upgrade. I've had my eye on wide-screen TVs for a couple of years, but I've been waiting for the right price/performance combination. I think I've found it in the <a href="http://www.samsung.ca/cgi-bin/nasecabc/en/b2c/product/product_subtype.jsp?LoginFlag=NO&prod_path=%2fConsumer+Products%2fTV,+Video+%26+Audio%2fTV%2fDLP+TV">Samsung DLP</a> line of TVs. The thing that has kept me from getting an HDTV so far is the issue of resolution and interpolation. Let me explain...<br /><br />I use LCD monitors on my desktop, and of course on my laptop. So I'm very familiar with issues of resolution, and more specifically what happens to the quality of the image when the monitors are not at their native resolution. Interpolation, when the monitor is displaying something other than it's native resolution, is something I avoid at all costs. When my computer couldn't comfortably keep up with games at the native 1280 x 1024 resolution of my Samsung 17" monitors, I upgraded the video card so it could. Native resolution is a must-have goal in my world.<br /><br />So when I spent an hour at a local electronics shop, I was a little dismayed at what I was seeing. All of the HDTVs have 1280 x 720 resolution. DVDs are 720 x 480 resolution. So guess what that means? You guessed it - interpolation of the signal, resulting in jagged edges and fuzziness. I left more than a little disappointed at what I saw.<!><br /><br />Fast forward about six months, and I decided to give the HDTVs another go. I went in with a more realistic mindset about how picky I was going to be, and a realization that I should be evaluating the display quality from the same distance as I'd be watching the TV (couch distance). Things were quite a bit better this time around, even though I still saw most of the same problems. I plan on having this TV for at least five years, if not longer, so when HD DVDs finally hit, I'll be ready for them. HD DVDs should be 1280 x 720 resolution, a natural match for HDTVs such as this one. Unless the DVD groups battling for format supremacy manager to screw that up too. :roll: <br /><br />The TV I've ordered is the <a href="http://www.samsung.ca/cgi-bin/nasecabc/en/b2c/product/product_detail.jsp?LoginFlag=NO&prod_id=HLN567WX%2fXAC&prod_path=%2fConsumer+Products%2fTV,+Video+%26+Audio%2fTV%2fDLP+TV">56" thin-bezel version.</a> I love the way the thin bezel looks: it makes the TV look even bigger than it is because the screen seems to "float". The anti-glare coating on the screen is nothing short of heart-stopping, and the picture is extremely bright and vibrant.<br /><br />Any Samsung DLP owners out there? Any words of advice or warning? Is this a good choice for an HDTV?<br /><br /><b>UPDATE:</b> I cancelled the order...read the thread to see why! (I'm waiting for the new versions to come out)

[Ed Hansberry]

DVDs are 720 x 480 resolution. So guess what that means? You guessed it - interpolation of the signal, resulting in jagged edges and fuzziness. I left more than a little disappointed at what I saw.

Fast forward about six months, and I decided to give the HDTVs another go. I went in with a more realistic mindset about how picky I was going to be, and a realization that I should be evaluating the display quality from the same distance as I'd be watching the TV (couch distance). Things were quite a bit better this time around, even though I still saw most of the same problems. I plan on having this TV for at least five years, if not longer, so when HD DVDs finally hit, I'll be ready for them. HD DVDs should be 1280 x 720 resolution, a natural match for HDTVs such as this one. Unless the DVD groups battling for format supremacy manager to screw that up too. :roll:
Absolutely no DVD jaggies on my 43" HLN4365 DLP. Not at 10 feet away anyway. No clue if there are any closer up - no reason to sit that close.

Using my MCE as a DVD player, or any progressive DVD player gives a stellar picture.

[James Fee]

The picture to me looked too bright, but my wife loved it. We ended up getting a Hitachi 65" Rear projection, but I know about 3 other people who think the DLP is the way to go.

We might have gotten the Samsung if they had a 65" model, but they didn't so we went Hitachi.

[James Fee]

So when I spent an hour at a local electronics shop, I was a little dismayed at what I was seeing. All of the HDTVs have 1280 x 720 resolution. DVDs are 720 x 480 resolution. So guess what that means? You guessed it - interpolation of the signal, resulting in jagged edges and fuzziness. I left more than a little disappointed at what I saw.
Most HDTV's can handle the DVD resolution now, but my parents didn't check and were very dissapointed when they got home. Lucky for them, Ultimate Electronics has a 30 day return, so they could take it back.

[Bob12]

I have a 65" Mitsubishi 16x9 HDTV and the DVDs are crystal clear on it from any distance I've ever noticed.

[foldedspace]

What's the native resolution on your Fujitsu P? I love to watch DVD's on mine, and it's wide-screen. I always force the movie to widescreen and it makes me want to disown my television.

[Jason Dunn]

Most HDTV's can handle the DVD resolution now, but my parents didn't check and were very dissapointed when they got home.

Hmm. I watched the same scenes from LOTR on over ten different TVs from Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Hitachi, and RCA. DLPs, plasmas, rear projection...everything I could find that was hooked up. I saw the same things on all the TVs, although some were more obvious about it than others.

So you're saying that HDTVs are capable of displaying 720 x 480 resolution without any upsampling? That doesn't jive with what I know - tell me more...I'd love to be wrong on this issue. 8O

[Jason Dunn]

I have a 65" Mitsubishi 16x9 HDTV and the DVDs are crystal clear on it from any distance I've ever noticed.

Hmm - I didn't have any Mitsubishi TVs to test, but unless they have some radically different technology, I'd assume they'd have the same problem.

[Bob12]

Well, let me hedge a little bit and say, I've never noticed any jagginess. However, the next time I've got a DVD playing, I'll make a point to check and report back.

[Jason Dunn]

What's the native resolution on your Fujitsu P? I love to watch DVD's on mine, and it's wide-screen. I always force the movie to widescreen and it makes me want to disown my television.

Good point! Native resolution on the P5010D is 1280 x 768. It has to up-sample the 720 x 480 to play back full screen at 1280 x 768. I'm watching a DVD on it right now and pausing every few seconds, and while I can see some very minor distortions, they're from the MPEG encoding. I don't see the same problems I saw on the TVs at the electronics store. I even changed the resolution to 800 x 600, and while it changed the aspect ratio, the actual video footage looked the same.

Ok, now I'm REALLY confused. :? I guess the real test will come when the TV arrives next Saturday and I see for myself in my own environment.

[Jason Dunn]

Well, let me hedge a little bit and say, I've never noticed any jagginess. However, the next time I've got a DVD playing, I'll make a point to check and report back.

Maybe you shouldn't - you might become as jaded as me. :lol:

[James Fee]

So you're saying that HDTVs are capable of displaying 720 x 480 resolution without any upsampling? That doesn't jive with what I know - tell me more...I'd love to be wrong on this issue. 8O
Remember that the DVD resolution is either 480p(720x480) or 480i(720x240). If your HDTV can view 480p you are fine. I can't remember seeing an HDTV that didn't support 480p.

Heck most HDTVs couldn't support 720p which is what ESPN HD and ABC HD use. Most if not all HDTVs now support that format now too (I believe I saw FOX will use 720p for their football next year). My neighbor had to buy a new TV since his older HDTV couldn't handle 720p and ESPN HD. It did upconvert the picture, but as you can imagine, it looked crappy.

[Jason Dunn]

Remember that the DVD resolution is either 480p(780x480) or 480i(780x240). If your HDTV can view 480p you are fine. I can't remember seeing an HDTV that didn't support 480p.

Remember it? Hell, I never KNEW it! :lol: Ok, so when the TV specs say "All format conversion to 720P", what does that mean exactly? That makes me think it would take the 480p and convert it to 720p. Yes? No?

I'm still not grasping this. You're saying 720 x 480 DVD video (I'm assuming the 780 x 480 you said above is a typo) is 480p...and that a TV with a resolution of 1280 x 720P can display 720 x 480 without any resampling?

I love learning new things - keep it coming!

[James Fee]

Remember it? Hell, I never KNEW it! :lol: Ok, so when the TV specs say "All format conversion to 720P", what does that mean exactly? That makes me think it would take the 480p and convert it to 720p. Yes? No?I'm not sure. It must upconvert to 720p. Unless the hardware is good, I doubt that would be a smart move. There is expensive stuff that will allow you to upconvert 480p to 1080i, but I can't imagine why (unless you had a HDTV that couldn't only handle 1080i).

I'm still not grasping this. You're saying 720 x 480 DVD video (I'm assuming the 780 x 480 you said above is a typo) is 480p...and that a TV with a resolution of 1280 x 720P can display 720 x 480 without any resampling?
Yes, as long as it can support 480p. Question though, what would your TV do with 1080i? Convert it to 720p?
I love learning new things - keep it coming!
LOL, I'm not an engineer so this is as far as I can take the conversation.

[James Fee]

Quickly, I'm not an engineer as I said above, so I'm not sure how this works, but when my TV switches from 720p to 1080i, its changing the resolution, not upsampling (or at least that is how I detect it). When I watch a DVD, the TV reports 480p, when I watch ESPN HD, the TV reports 720p and when I watch CBS, the TV reports 1080i. Maybe other TVs do it differently, but the Mistubishi and Hitachi sets that I know about both handle the feeds this way.

[Jason Dunn]

Quickly, I'm not an engineer as I said above, so I'm not sure how this works, but when my TV switches from 720p to 1080i, its changing the resolution, not upsampling (or at least that is how I detect it). When I watch a DVD, the TV reports 480p, when I watch ESPN HD, the TV reports 720p and when I watch CBS, the TV reports 1080i. Maybe other TVs do it differently, but the Mistubishi and Hitachi sets that I know about both handle the feeds this way.

Ok, so it sounds like they have multiple native resolutions. That's certainly possible, but I don't think the DLPs have that...I guess we'll see. ;-)

[James Fee]

Ok, so it sounds like they have multiple native resolutions. That's certainly possible, but I don't think the DLPs have that...I guess we'll see. ;-)
I don't believe they do (at least DLP Projectors don't). Must be the same with the TVs.

I think it would be very hard to buy a TV that couldn't support 480p or 1080i native. You give up native DVD support and most HD is in 1080i. MAYBE they have gotten better with upconverting and downconverting, but what my neighbor went through without 720p seems to indicate that it won't work as well as the salesmen or brochures say it will. :twisted:

I'm interested in hearing what happens.

[Ed Hansberry]

Remember that the DVD resolution is either 480p(720x480) or 480i(720x240). If your HDTV can view 480p you are fine. I can't remember seeing an HDTV that didn't support 480p.
Minor point. All DVDs (unless there are some rare HD-DVDs out) are simply 720X480. The player determines if it is 480i (interlaced) or 480p (progressive). You can stick a 5 year old DVD (before 480p really existed) in a progressive player and it looks great.

AFAIK, all PC based DVD players are progressive.

[Ed Hansberry]

DLP's upconvert. From that DLP overview link I gave you earlier (http://www.samsungusa.com/pdf/DLP_Brochure.pdf).

"Samsung’s Cinema Progressive Scan automatically up-converts all non-digital format signals to a smooth, clear 720 lines of progressive scan. 3:2 pull down is a must for any DVD movie enthusiast. It analyzes each frame of video, removing unclear frames that were added during the transfer from film to video. These added frames cause blurring, stuttering and other motion artifacts, especially during fast-action sequences. 3:2 pull down gives your DVDs a look and feel that’s much closer to film. Cinema Progressive Scan with 3:2 pull down is powered by Faroudja’s patented DCDi™ video processing."

I didn't realize that DVDs were up-framed from 24fps to 30fps and think it is wicked cool that the TV is intercepting those bad frames and removing them - at least according to their marketing materials. :wink:

[Doug Johnson]

LCD and DLP have to down/upsample to their native resolution or you would end up with black bars around the image, or only see part of it. The resulting quality you get is determined by how good the scaling algorithm the TV uses is.

I use a CRT for my everyday TV watching, which upconverts 480i signals to 480p, but everything else is displayed native. It looks beautiful.

But for movies I use a DLP projector. At first I was really disappointed because the image scaling algorithm in the projector is AWFUL! But then I purchased an external image processing device that does an excellent job of converting the image (anything from 480i up to 1080p) to the projector's native resolution or 1024x768. Now the image from the projector is gorgeous!

If you are unsatisfied with the results from the TV's built in scaling algorithm, you aren't stuck. There are several external devices out there that will do an excellent job of upconverting. The DVDO iScan products are very good and not too expensive:

http://www.dvdo.com/pro/pro_ishd.html

If you're not going to buy an external box, and plan on watching a lot of DVDs, make sure your DVD player has the Faroudja DCDi chip in it. No other progressive scan processor even comes close in image quality.

The one down side to all of this is that if you use DVI, you're generally stuck with whatever scaling the TV offers (The DVDO iScan HD will process unencrypted DVI, however). Due to the current copyright debates coming out of Hollywood, external boxes aren't allowed to decode encrypted digital signals to analog. Big-time bummer.

[James Fee]

But then I purchased an external image processing device that does an excellent job of converting the image (anything from 480i up to 1080p) to the projector's native resolution or 1024x768. Now the image from the projector is gorgeous!
That would go with what I've read over at AVSForums.

The one down side to all of this is that if you use DVI, you're generally stuck with whatever scaling the TV offers (The DVDO iScan HD will process unencrypted DVI, however). Due to the current copyright debates coming out of Hollywood, external boxes aren't allowed to decode encrypted digital signals to analog. Big-time bummer.
Firewire connections have the same problem if I'm not mistaken.

[Jason Dunn]

If you're not going to by an external box, and plan on watching a lot of DVDs, make sure your DVD player has the Faroudja DCDi chip in it. No other progressive scan processor even comes close in image quality.

The Samsung TV I bought has the Faroudja chip in it - that was one of the major selling points of this unit over the other Samsung DLPs. Their Tantus line includes the Faroudja chip, while their normal line does not.

The DVD player I purchased is the Samsung DVD-HD931 (http://www.samsung.ca/cgi-bin/nasecabc/en/b2c/product/product_detail.jsp?LoginFlag=NO&prod_id=DVD-HD931%2fXAC&prod_path=%2fConsumer+Products%2fTV,+Video+%26+Audio%2fDVD+Player%2fHD+DVD), and it also has the Faroudja chip in it.

The one down side to all of this is that if you use DVI, you're generally stuck with whatever scaling the TV offers (The DVDO iScan HD will process unencrypted DVI, however). Due to the current copyright debates coming out of Hollywood, external boxes aren't allowed to decode encrypted digital signals to analog. Big-time bummer.

Gah! 8O So you're saying that if I'm using DVI, I'll *never* be able to take advantage of the Faroudja chip on the DVD player? Since my TV has the same chip, do you think I'm losing out? ie: does double processing help matters, or is it mostly redundant?

Thanks for the info...

[Ed Hansberry]

The Samsung TV I bought has the Faroudja chip in it - that was one of the major selling points of this unit over the other Samsung DLPs. Their Tantus line includes the Faroudja chip, while their normal line does not.
Are you sure about that? The Samsung DLP info says all of their DLPs have the "Cinema Progressive Scan w/ 3:2 Pull Down" and that "Cinema Progressive Scan with 3:2 pull down is powered by
Faroudja’s patented DCDi™ video processing."

I think that means all 8-9 TVs in that DLP line have the Faroudja chip.

The only thing I could find that the Tantus line differed from the normal lines was something called "Discreet Codes" which I have no clue what that means, and based on the images, they seem to be almost bezelless, whereas mine has a 1 inch bezel around the screen.

[Jason Dunn]

Are you sure about that? The Samsung DLP info says all of their DLPs have the "Cinema Progressive Scan w/ 3:2 Pull Down" and that "Cinema Progressive Scan with 3:2 pull down is powered by Faroudja’s patented DCDi™ video processing."

Nope, not 100% sure - but on the Tantus TVs there's the Faroudja’s logo on the front, and on the regular DLPs there is no logo. The sales guy said that was one of the major differences between the two.

[Doug Johnson]

Gah! 8O So you're saying that if I'm using DVI, I'll *never* be able to take advantage of the Faroudja chip on the DVD player? Since my TV has the same chip, do you think I'm losing out? ie: does double processing help matters, or is it mostly redundant?

That depends on how the DVD player outputs the signal. If it outputs the DCDi processed image, then you're taking advantage of the chip. If the DVI signal is 480i, the chip isn't being used. My guess is that the DVI signal has probably been processed.

BUT, your DVD player is probably unaware of the native resolution of the TV, so you might be better off using the TV's image processor... possibly even passing it an interlaced signal. In genral I don't think processing it twice is a good idea. Let the DVD player, an external box, OR the TV do it, but I wouldn't let any more than one device process the image if you have the option. If the DVD player cannot output a native resolution image to your TV, it could possibly be better to go with the TV's scaler and turn off progressive scan on the DVD player altogether.

One thing I failed to mention in my earlier post. It seems that there are varying levels of quality among Faroudja's different chips, so you may need to play around with different combinations of settings to get the best picture. Some cheap DVD players may have a Faroudja chip in them, but it probably isn't the same chip in more expensive players. Both my $1000 player and my $150 changer have Faroudja chips in them, but the image from the $1000 player is far superior. The chip in your TV might be better than the one in the DVD player, or vice versa.

In my own situation, I use a DVD recorder with a very high quality DCDi chipset as my primary player, and it outputs 480p to a scaler which upsamples the image to the native resolution of my DLP projector. My DVD player is NOT able to output a 1024x768 native signal (obviously), but it does an excellent job of creating a 720x480 progressive image -- far better than my scaler does -- so I use both.

There are too many variables in the equation to come up with a "this is always best" recommendation. You've just got to play with a few things and see what works best with your combination of equipment.

[Doug Johnson]

Firewire connections have the same problem if I'm not mistaken.

Correct. The issue isn't DVI per se, but rather having an encrypted data stream. Only the actual display device is allowed to decrypt the signal.

[Doug Johnson]

The DVD player I purchased is the Samsung DVD-HD931 (http://www.samsung.ca/cgi-bin/nasecabc/en/b2c/product/product_detail.jsp?LoginFlag=NO&prod_id=DVD-HD931%2fXAC&prod_path=%2fConsumer+Products%2fTV,+Video+%26+Audio%2fDVD+Player%2fHD+DVD), and it also has the Faroudja chip in it.

Since this particular DVD player supports the native resolution of your TV and uses a Faroudja chip to scale, your best bet is probably going to be to use the DVD player to upsample to the highest resolution your TV supports. (720p?)

[Doug Johnson]

While we're talking about progressive scan and the like, does anyone here know off the top of their heads which TVs support the new 72Hz refresh rate? (For display 24 fps film sources correctly)

I remember reading it somewhere but can't remember where.

[Jason Dunn]

Since this particular DVD player supports the native resolution of your TV and uses a Faroudja chip to scale, your best bet is probably going to be to use the DVD player to upsample to the highest resolution your TV supports. (720p?)

You say that the DVD player supports the resolution of the TV, so I assume you mean 720p. I've got my head too much in the computer world, because when I think resolution I think the 1280 x 720 resolution of the TV set, not 480p and 720p. I have to get my head around this - when people talk about HDTV resolutions, they mean 480i, 480p, 720p, etc., right? So I should just forget about the 1280 x 720p resolution? Or, rather, forget about the 1280 and focus on the fact that it's 720p?

[Bob12]

OK Jason, here's what I observed. For background info, I do not have a progressive scan DVD player, it's a Pioneer DVL-909 Laser/DVD combo player. Its signal is fed through my home theater receiver (also Pioneer) and out to the Mitsubishi rear projection HDTV via s-video. On the narrow screen display the Paramount logo showed some jagginess from a distance of a couple of feet. Once I started the movie and switched to Expand mode, there was no noticeable jagginess on either normal motion or freeze frame at the same distance. The tw different modes (Narrow & Expand) are the only two I use. Narrow is a standard 16x12 TV ratio with bars at the sides of the screen. It shows a full standard TV screen with no distortion. The menu of the DVD I chose was in this ratio. The Expand mode is the full 16x9 screen, also with no distortion. The movie was a 2.35:1 widescreen so there were bars at the top and bottom of the picture but a full width image.

[James Fee]

Once I started the movie and switched to Expand mode, there was no noticeable jagginess on either normal motion or freeze frame at the same distance.
Sounds like your TV supports 480i or/and 480p and that is why its not an issue.

[Wojo]

You say that the DVD player supports the resolution of the TV, so I assume you mean 720p. I've got my head too much in the computer world, because when I think resolution I think the 1280 x 720 resolution of the TV set, not 480p and 720p. I have to get my head around this - when people talk about HDTV resolutions, they mean 480i, 480p, 720p, etc., right? So I should just forget about the 1280 x 720p resolution? Or, rather, forget about the 1280 and focus on the fact that it's 720p?

Yes forget the standard PC lingo when discussing DVD or standard video resolutions.

Yes your DVD player will upconvert your DVD to the 720p resolution. This is one of the benefits of using the Samsung DVD. One thing to check is your "Sharpness" setting on your TV. Test it with the sharpness off. Having the sharpness turned up tends to defeat what your DVD player is currently doing. I've found that having the sharpness on will make your video look pixelated.

FYI: Samsung will be releasing a 73" DLP soon and they are currently working on a 1080p unit.

Great choice in hardware Jason. This is what I'm recommending to clients at this time. Especially if you have your X-Box connected to it.

[Jason Patterson]

That depends on how the DVD player outputs the signal. If it outputs the DCDi processed image, then you're taking advantage of the chip. If the DVI signal is 480i, the chip isn't being used. My guess is that the DVI signal has probably been processed.

The HD-931 outputting through DVI will upconvert to 720p and the Faroudja chip will kick in to perform the deinterlacing and 3:2 pulldown.. I'm pretty sure that the chip also has some fancy upscaling hardware routines as well, which are optionally enabled with DCDi.

Jason - you're exactly right though, when using the HD-931 you will not be using the Faroudja chip in your TV -- barely any processing occurs to incoming DVI signals. For this reason, you can plug in an (old) DVD player w/ component 480i output, and the TV's chip will do all the magic, giving you a pretty good signal. It's been said over at AVSForum that comparing the output of an older 480i DVD player is even better than a newer 480p DVD player, as the Faroudja chip beats any other deinterlacing/pulldown chip out there (in most 480p players).

A larger issue with the HD-931 is it's color space miscalculations. It has something to do with using PC color space instead of video color space -- basically it clip any blacks below level 16, and any whites above level 235, then stretches that 16-235 range to a 0-255 DVI signal. The Bravo D1 DVI DVD player does not suffer from this problem (though it does suffer from any other problems). I don't have a HD-931, but have heard on 'dark' DVD's the output quality is degraded in dark scenes somewhat.

[Jason Patterson]

Another option to consider, if you're going to go the HTPC route, is to use a software-based DVD player to play on your HTPC through DVI output.. Since everything would be done in software, it's a matter of having a better algorithm running than the Faroudja chip.

[Jason Patterson]

Regarding the set itself, it's a great unit. Brightness is excellent, inputs are great, no burn-in is always a plus, and viewing via DVI is really, really great.

Problem: detail in dark scenes can be disappointing via S-Video and non-HD inputs (incl. 480p). Color banding is a more pressing problem - basically, say for a scene with a dark room with a lightbulb, you can see concentric circles of light around it; when faces are in dark scenes, you can sometimes see banding (this is call the "clay faces" problem on AVSForum).

I've had some issues with the TV not starting up properly, and displaying a series of "bar codes" on the screen -- though I did call and they offer to swap out the electronics board of the unit, I passed on it as I'm waiting for a fix to the second issue:

More pressing, is the issue of AV-sync -- apparantely the internals and Faroudja chip adds a significant delay to video processing, whereby any video signal can sometimes be delayed a good 100 msec to 1 second behind the audio. This is an issue Samsung is currently fixing, and they have a 'list' of people who have reported the problem (the current thinking is that the new DLP sets, the HLP series, will fix this). Here's the forum thread on it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=295677. It's VERY evident on the Antenna input, and can be replicated on other inputs as well, except DVI (since there's so little processing there).

Another minor issue is the lens assembly produces some "internal reflection" on the image. For example, in the Matrix, when Neo's waking up to the 'typed' messages on his screen (green text in the upper-left hand corner with all black everywhere else), you can also see a 180 degree reflection of it in the lower-right of the screen. This isn't a big deal most of the time, but can be distracting when moving (think scrolling credits, comedians onstage in a spotlight w/ blackness surrounding them, etc).

All in all, a great unit backed by great service (so far).

[Ed Hansberry]

Problem: detail in dark scenes can be disappointing via S-Video and non-HD inputs (incl. 480p). Color banding is a more pressing problem - basically, say for a scene with a dark room with a lightbulb, you can see concentric circles of light around it; when faces are in dark scenes, you can sometimes see banding (this is call the "clay faces" problem on AVSForum).
This was a horrible issue on mine when I had my old DVD player connected via SVideo, which is all it supported. Moving to DVI on a PC DVD player, the same DVDs looked stellar and you could only see banding if you really looked for it.

[Jason Dunn]

Thanks for all the input guys - based on these conversations, I'm going to cancel my order and wait for the HLP5674W:

http://www.tvauthority.com/samsung_hlp_5674W.asp

It's very close to coming out, and even if it will cost a bit more, it sounds like it will address many of the current issues with the TV I was looking at.

[James Fee]

That looks really sweet Jason. 8O

[dznylvr]

Here is a link that explains the various Samsung models a bit better.

http://www.digiupdate.com/P001_Samsung_HLN_DLP_2003.html#_Toc62901894

Hope this helps.

[Fitch]

Gah! 8O So you're saying that if I'm using DVI, I'll *never* be able to take advantage of the Faroudja chip on the DVD player? Since my TV has the same chip, do you think I'm losing out? ie: does double processing help matters, or is it mostly redundant?

Nononono! One thing that computer folks like us have to get their mind around is that movies are way different than GUIs that you're used to.

Think about all the grain and dynamic range all these pixels have when a movie/photo is displayed up on the screen. Scaling a pretty GUI screenshot with 'nearest neighbor' will grossly jaggify the image compared to a photo that's scaled the same way. That's why most DVD players, when scaling up for 720p, look PRETTY good, even if they're using very simple algorhithms.

That being said, there are also much better algorithms for scaling, like in the Frutiyojiuita :razzing: chip. This does a scaling, probably similar to the great scaling algorithms you get in Photoshop. Also, a PC DVD player program will also scale it that way, using DirectDraw/Direct3D and the like (that's why people like HTPCs for DVD playing)

Then, you've got this awesomely scaled 720p signal, which gets sent to your TV directly through DVI, pixel-by-pixel!
I'm by no means an authority, but this is what I've gathered reading the AVSforum all the time, so if I'm off, let me know, too.

[craigf]

208 comments and counting, and it gets updated almost every day.

http://www.gearbits.com/archives/000063.html

[Suhit Gupta]

Thanks for all the input guys - based on these conversations, I'm going to cancel my order and wait for the HLP5674W:

http://www.tvauthority.com/samsung_hlp_5674W.asp

It's very close to coming out, and even if it will cost a bit more, it sounds like it will address many of the current issues with the TV I was looking at.
Any idea on what the cost is going to be?

Suhit

[Jason Dunn]

Any idea on what the cost is going to be?

I've been told it will be about $1000 USD above the current model, but I'm finding that hard to believe from a marketing point of view - it's rare to release a new model that's more expensive than the previous one, even if there's better technology inside it. We'll see what it comes out at...

[Kati Compton]

I know that in Net Time this thread is "old", but I was reading it and wanted to comment on this:

I didn't realize that DVDs were up-framed from 24fps to 30fps and think it is wicked cool that the TV is intercepting those bad frames and removing them - at least according to their marketing materials. :wink:

Depends on the source material for the DVD. If the source material was video, there is no upsampling. It started at 30fps and ended at 30fps. If the source material was *film*, which is the 24fps, then it does in fact need to be converted to 30fps video for your TV (which displays at 60Hz). This is presuming that you are in an NTSC area. PAL is 25fps I believe, for the 50Hz refresh rate.

[Jason Dunn]

For those still following this thread, the new Samsung DLP I want isn't available in Canada until October! 8O So it's waiting time...

[James Fee]

Hmm, how about a road trip to the states?

[Jason Dunn]

Hmm, how about a road trip to the states?

Heh. That would be an expensive trip, nevermind the shipping/transportation issues. I'm ok with waiting actually - I'm working on my PVR scenarios now anyway... :-)

[Jason Patterson]

Jason,

It seems Samsung has stepped up to the plate and will be offering any HLN users with the AV Sync problem (the most irritating of all the issues with these sets) with the 'guts' of the new HLP series sets. See this thread for more details (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=295677&goto=newpost). Nobody has actually received these fixes just yet though.

Regarding PVR choices.. I'm definitely a TiVo fan, and will never use any 'generic' PVR's from cable/satellite co's.. Windows XP MCE doesn't do HD, and neither does any standalong TiVo currently (DirecTV has its own HD TiVo offering). For cable customers, I think everyone is waiting for an OpenCable box or something similiar -- it's a new mandate for the US to support third-party cable boxes via the OpenCable standard (buy your own digital cable / HD tuner box) or 1394 (any cable-provided HD box should have FireWire outputs). Late 2004 should bring some new things to market, I hope.

Edit: this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=172456) has some HD TiVo speculation and news.