Apple Makes iPhone a Reality - Finally

[Mike Temporale]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/live-from-macworld-2007-steve-jobs-keynote/' target='_blank'>http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/live-from-macworld-2007-steve-jobs-keynote/</a><br /><br /></div><img src="http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/images/Temporale-20070109-AppleIphone.jpg" alt="User submitted image" title="User submitted image"/> <br /><br />Apple has finally announced the iPhone. This is the device that people have been speculating about for years now. From what I can gather at this point, there is no stylus, no keypad or keyboard. Instead Apple has developed a new multi-touch screen that works with your finger and somehow prevents accidental pressing. I wonder how successful this could be with no 3G support? People have blasted some WinMo devices for not having 3G.<br /><br /><b>Update:</b> More specs can be found over <a href="http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/specs.html">here</a> on Apple's site.

[SteveHoward999]

Looks cool.

Finally a great screen resolution, instead of a giant keyboard.

Runs OSX???? WOW.

Pictures of Safari running make it look like the screen resolution is ... heeeuuuge.

[Rocco Augusto]

no stylus? i wonder how apple plans on tackling the world of greasy finger smudges and not to mention face oil (which really has nothing to do with the stylus but has annoyed me about ALL phones). this phone would drive me insane :evil:

[djdj]

Three initial thoughts...

1. In conventional Apple style the interface looks nice.

2. No keys = impossible to dial without looking at the screen... e.g. while driving. And typing on a keyboard where you can't feel the keys and no stylus is likely going to be an exercise in patience.

3. WAY too expensive for a phone ($499 for 4GB ver, $599 for 8GB). I think they'll have trouble reaching any sort of decent market penetration at this price.

[SteveHoward999]

I think they'll have trouble reaching any sort of decent market penetration at this price.

I'll take that bet.

There is a world out there full of people who will:-

- choose style over anything at any cost.
- simply buy Apple, no matter whether the product sucks or not.
- buy that phone because they love the iPod.
- buy the phone becuase it does not run anything with Windows in the name
- buy the phone **because** of the price tag
- think nothing of spending $500 on a phone because that's what they cost these days
- not pay that price anyway becuase Cingular will offer a $400 discount
- buy the phone on eBay


etc etc

[Rocco Augusto]

3. WAY too expensive for a phone ($499 for 4GB ver, $599 for 8GB). I think they'll have trouble reaching any sort of decent market penetration at this price.

well, im sure they will attract the mac lovers. i work in a design/marketing firm and everyone here is in love with everything mac and hates everything microsoft... a majority of time for no good reason other then following the herd. so far, everyone is going gaga over it and cant wait for it to come out.

in my honest opinion, not having actual buttons will hinder being able to use the phone... though you shouldnt be dialing and driving to begin with! also if there is one thing i learned from selling phones for almost a decade, nobody likes finger smudges. it is actually one of the top 10 reasons people will return a phone.

another thing i noticed is that apple claims this device runs OSX, which I doubt it does. i'm sure this device it utilizing the darwin kernel but to say it runs OSX fully might turn a lot of people off when they realize they cannot fully use all of their OSX applications on the phone. this is like microsoft telling everyone their handsets run Windows instead of Windows Mobile. I can only see high return rates in store for this device. i would have to see it in action and physically play with it before i believe it is running OSX and not a dumbed down version of the operating system based off the same kernel.

[Rocco Augusto]

- not pay that price anyway becuase Cingular will offer a $400 discount

That price you are seeing is with the discount on a new two year activation. without the discount of a new activation expect to pay anywhere from $200-$350USD more per handset, depending on the hardware. 8O

[Tim Williamson]

WOW, just checked the dimensions and it's only 5mm taller than the Dash and beats the dash in all other dimensions. Crazy! Definitely pocketable.

115 x 61 x 11.6 iPhone
111.5 x 62.5 x 12.8 T-Mobile Dash

The touchscreen is going to be the deciding factor here though, it all comes down to how well that interface works. Did Apple mention anything about voice dialing?

Also, I wish it would sync with Google Calendar or Outlook instead of iTunes.

[SteveHoward999]

That price you are seeing is with the discount on a new two year activation. without the discount of a new activation expect to pay anywhere from $200-$350USD more per handset, depending on the hardware. 8O

Yeah in Britain I've seen the $1000 HTC Universal given away free with a contract. I'm sure the numbers they quote for phone prices are just random numbers.

Well I'm sure we'll all see what the ultimate price turns out to be in June :-).

[Rocco Augusto]

Yeah in Britain I've seen the $1000 HTC Universal given away free with a contract. I'm sure the numbers they quote for phone prices are just random numbers.

Well I'm sure we'll all see what the ultimate price turns out to be in June :-).

this is why i have always wanted to live on the other side of the pond! i envy you guys! :)

cingular has never been that nice though. every once in a while you can get a sales rep to negotiate a price but it is never in the range of hundreds of dollars. granted if you have a foundation account number associated with your account, business care will give you a huge discount on your phone... but even that will still not bring the handset down to a reasonable price worth signing away another two years of my life.

i think its about time we all moved to the UK! :lol:

[djdj]

another thing i noticed is that apple claims this device runs OSX, which I doubt it does.
Certainly not the full OS. The description talks about "desktop class" applications, not desktop application compatibility. Plus there isn't any way they could store a full implementation of OS X. It has to be just the kernel, and some phone-specific libraries, though most of those are probably equivalent to the desktop versions. Very much like Windows CE/Windows Mobile has a lot of the same APIs as Windows itself.

I didn't get to watch the keynote itself, but the very thorough summary I did read had absolutely no mention of voice dialling. Doesn't mean it won't have it, but they didn't mention it.

The prices quoted are with a 2-year contract. When the Dash is currently $149 (just got two at that price), $499 and $599 sure seems like a lot of money. I know that wealthy Mac fanatics will buy it, but they won't attract the masses at that price. It should have been $299 at the most, and even that is high.

Personally I think the biggest obstacle it has is the lack of a keypad. Typing on a touchscreen without a stylus is difficult and very frustrating.

[Kris Kumar]

All I want to say at this time - how can they use the name iPhone? Doesn't Cisco/Linksys own that tradename?

[peterawest]

Doesn't Cisco/Linksys own that tradename?

On MSNBC they reported that Apple has been negotiating to purchase the name or the rights to the name and should have it all sewed up today.

[snap]

there is always the network-based voice dialing if the phone does not support it. Still need to press a couple of numbers or the "redial" soft key to access it.

http://www.cingular.com/cell-phone-service/services/serviceDetails.jsp?LOSGId=&amp;skuId=sku1040072&amp;catId=cat1360001

[jlp]

there is always the network-based voice dialing if the phone does not support it. Still need to press a couple of numbers or the "redial" soft key to access it.

http://www.cingular.com/cell-phone-service/services/serviceDetails.jsp?LOSGId=&amp;skuId=sku1040072&amp;catId=cat1360001

They might add a single shortcut key...

[alese]

It looks like typical Apple to me.
Nice design, beautifull and (I guess) functionall interface, everything nicely integrated (browser, iPod...) and also some nice HW specs (storage, touch screen...)
But it's also typically expensive and lacking in some at least for me important areas. It lacks 3G (UMTS) for one, and that is a really big omission for a device coming in Summer 2007. Couple that with no expansion slot, apparent lack of stylus (I like to jot stuff down) and Apple like "integration" with it's own multimedia formats and at least for me it's not as interesting as it looks at first look.

Don't get me wrong, I hope it will force M$ and HTC to innovate more, and I would love to have a proper Browser and an interface like this on my mobile device...

[vincenzosi]

another thing i noticed is that apple claims this device runs OSX, which I doubt it does. i'm sure this device it utilizing the darwin kernel but to say it runs OSX fully might turn a lot of people off when they realize they cannot fully use all of their OSX applications on the phone. this is like microsoft telling everyone their handsets run Windows instead of Windows Mobile. I can only see high return rates in store for this device. i would have to see it in action and physically play with it before i believe it is running OSX and not a dumbed down version of the operating system based off the same kernel.

It's actually nothing like that at all. Windows Mobile has absolutely zero commonality with Windows XP. Darwin IS OSX. All the other stuff (the GUI) is on top of it (think Linux; you can have Ubuntu running KDE or Gnome; it's simply a window manager).

I don't see them saying it runs OSX "fully" anyway. I see them saying it runs a full web browser (it does) and most of the apps people love on the Mac (again, it does). The iPhone does run OSX, it just doesn't run the same Window manager that the desktop version does. I think the average Mac user, at this point, understands that distinction and won't be trying to load their copy of __insert_Mac_app_here___ on their phone.

The biggest downsides are:

1. 2 year contract with Cingular to get a price that's already high.
2. Convincing people that an intuitive and innovative system for navigating a phone isn't just another "Palm Pilot."

[Rocco Augusto]

Darwin IS OSX.

No, Darwin is the kernel and OSX is the combination of all parts of the operating system, including Darwin. That would be like saying just because you are running OpenDarwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opendarwinl), you're using OSX, which would be a false statement. While I'm sure this phone will contain a lot of the functions of the OSX operating system, in reality, there would be no way to fully run it on this device. I think this will be the main downfall of this device, people are going to expect the full experience instead of a dimmed-down version of the operating system. In fact, several people in my office are already under the impression that they will be able to do everything they can from their macbooks with this new phone.

think Linux; you can have Ubuntu running KDE or Gnome; it's simply a window manager

eh. Ubuntu runs Gnome and Kubuntu runs KDE. The different window managers gives the OS different names to not confuse people even though we all know they are running virtually the same kernel. This is something that should have been done here to not cause confusion. I'm sure Apple is well aware of this but if they claim the device runs OSX, the "most advanced OS on the planet", the average Joe Schmo will buy into it and buy this device based off that statement alone.

Once they find out they can't do certain things with this phone that they can do with their OSX computer/laptop at home they will either be disappointed or return the device. This is one of those times when Apple's trickery with words will most likely come back to bite them on the rump.

Personally, I'm against misleading statements from any company. It doesn't matter if it is Microsoft, HTC, Samsung, Motorola or Apple. This is one of the reasons I felt the need to call out HTC when they printed their misleading ad for the MTeoR... besides the fact that it was downright wrong... or why I gripped several times when Cingular released the 2125 and claimed it had Microsoft Office when all it really had was ClearVue Suite for viewing Office documents. You should never have to lie or stretch the truth to sell a product, the moment you do you undermine the true value of the product you are trying to sell

The biggest downsides are:

1. 2 year contract with Cingular to get a price that's already high.
2. Convincing people that an intuitive and innovative system for navigating a phone isn't just another "Palm Pilot."

you're preaching to the choir! personally i think the price is WAY to high for this device, no matter how pretty it might be (and it is!). also i think they shoot themselves in the foot by comparing the devices to other PDA type of handsets.

Apple has always been in a league of its own and the moment they compared the iPhone to all of the other PDA devices out there they grouped themselves in with the PDA category. I personally feel this phone would have had a better chance not comparing itself to any phone on the market since its looks alone is enough to make it stand out from the crowd and be "different".

[SteveHoward999]

The prices quoted are with a 2-year contract. When the Dash is currently $149 (just got two at that price), $499 and $599 sure seems like a lot of money. I know that wealthy Mac fanatics will buy it, but they won't attract the masses at that price. It should have been $299 at the most, and even that is high.

Personally I think the biggest obstacle it has is the lack of a keypad. Typing on a touchscreen without a stylus is difficult and very frustrating.


Hands up all those who think there's no way there will be 'special' discounts to encourage early adopters, oh and then special 'web only' discounts on places like Amazon. Think marketing :-)

[vincenzosi]

eh. Ubuntu runs Gnome and Kubuntu runs KDE. The different window managers gives the OS different names to not confuse people even though we all know they are running virtually the same kernel.

With all due respect, you're wrong.

Kubuntu is pre-packaged Ubuntu with KDE. Ubuntu is pre-packaged with Gnome. That being said, you can easily run KDE as your window manager in Ubuntu (sudo apt get _insert_filename_here_) and never once touch Kubuntu. You still get all the functionality, and everything works as advertised, you just get the ability to install it yourself if you don't like Gnome (which I don't).

As for DJDJ: You cannot even come remotely close to comparing this phone to the Dash. The Dash is a nice device, but let's not kid ourselves... You'd have a much better comparison if you compared the iPhone to a PPC phone, and even then you'd be talking Apples and Oranges (no pun intended!)

[Pete Paxton]

So would you guys take the iphone or the 8525? The 8525 also has a 2mp cam, word, excel, touch screen with a pull out keyboard. I mean is the iphone really that innovative?

[Tim Williamson]

The 8525 looks big, the iPhone is only 5mm taller than the Dash, and is smaller in all other dimensions. Plus the iPhone looks cooler. 8)

[Kris Kumar]

I want the iPhone!

[Rocco Augusto]

I want the iPhone!

TRAITOR! :twisted:

if the iPhone was less expensive and actually had some buttons so i constantly would not be cleaning face/finger oil off of it, i might get it. i wish someone would just invent a see-through plastic that did not pick up smudges and body oil like a magnet. :(

then again, after having a 3G phone, i doubt i could go back to anything such as EDGE. hopefully they add HSDPA to the device before its release in June.

[Kirkaiya]

My thoughts after looking thru some news sites, and watching some brief video clips, reading the specs, etc:

1 - It's a beautiful phone/PDA (and therein lies the marketing problem), with an absolutely beautiful screen. Reminds me of when the Sony Cleos had that 320x480 screen, except I think this is even higher-res.

2 - While it's lacking 3G, it's also true that 3G networks have been slow to roll out. For all we know, it's possible Apple will add UMTS (or whichever 3G tech is supported by Cingular) by June or July, and dub it the "iPhone 3G" or something. But more than that - my current phone (the HTC StrTrk, in it's Dopod S300 version) is the best phone I've EVER owned, and it doesn't have 3G either. My StrTrk has EDGE, and to be honest, for what I do (sync'ing email, contacts &amp; calendar with Zimbra (pseudo-Exchange), doing occasional lookups on Google's mobile-friendly search engine, checking my Yahoo mail on Yahoo!'s mobile portal, and syncing Google Mail using their Google Mobile java applet... EDGE is actually fine.

So when 3G comes to the iPhone, it will be welcome, but for most people, lacking it won't be a deal-killer.

3 - I wrote a mini-review-post on here when I got my Dopod S300, and I remember writing that the form-factor is what seduced me. I think for a lot of people, the Apple's sleek design will do the same. People are going to buy this for the whole "experience", not a list of features (except for us, the tech geeks, of course!)

4 - No stylus does suck. The one thing I miss (though I do love my phone) is the ability to jot down quick notes. I'm quick with T9, and predictive-text and all that, but still... However, this is an Apple product, and there is a HUGE HUGE third-party ecosystem for all their products. Look at the iPod - dozens of companies thrive selling accessories for iPods. I have to believe that some company will sell an iPhone case with a stylus that works on the iPhone, and some sort of touch-screen keyboard software for it. I'm willing to bet within 6 months we'll see this.

My conclusions - very early to tell, but since this thing *is* an iPod, syncs with iTunes, and can (seeminly) play 16:9 format movies in a very-watchable resolution, then suddenly the $499 doesn't look so bad. People are paying $200 for a phone now, and then $250 for an iPod... and this is both. Will they sell 10 million of them in the first year? Yes - they absolutely will.

Will Apple dominate the mobile phone, or even the smartPhone markets? No. Microsoft has deep products, a lot of experience here, and very-well accepted devices (finally... WM 5.0 was the first really good mobile phone OS from MSFT imho). Plus HTC and some other markers are fast, nimble and smart.

Hopefully we'll see some of these "innovations" like the "multi-touch" screen, and dynamically-changing landscape/portrait layout, the hi-res screen with very little "side-trim" (the screen goes almost to the edge of the phone), etc.

All in all, I think it's a pretty impressive device, and will (i hope) move the whole industry forward.

[WyattEarp]

So would you guys take the iphone or the 8525? The 8525 also has a 2mp cam, word, excel, touch screen with a pull out keyboard. I mean is the iphone really that innovative?

I'd take the iPhone over the 8525 any day of the week. Give me any combination of High speed internet (3G or not for now at least) w/Quad band GSM/WiFi and BT 2.0, a fully functional web browser, a good display, lots of memory and the ability to take some quick pics to put in my address book (that's all these cameras are good for IMHO) and I'm all set. No phone so far "smart" or otherwise can replace the 4" display of my HP xh4700 with all my apps so I don't even try to look for that anymore. Converged devices are nice but not when you have to give up major features and functionality at the same time. The display of the 8525 is just to small for me and I'm use to a touch screen so a physical keyboard doesn't really matter to me, don't get me wrong it's nice to have for SMS which I do on occasion but for editing documents I prefer my 4700.

My Dash is pretty sweet for what it can do but it can never be my primary device as it lacks so much in power, functionality and built-in apps. The iPhone as it is presented has alot of the things people have asked for in one package which MS has yet to deliver. I see easy of use, a real intuitive UI, a very nice display, Quad-band GSM, Edge, Wi-Fi, BT 2.0, 4 or 8Gb of memory (pick your Kool-Aid) and it's coming to the US soon. As far as innovation, well I think that if a phone has proximity sensors on it so that when you bring it to your ear the display and touchscreen shuts off; that's innovative in my book since no other phone can do such a thing.

I see complaints already about what it can't do or does not have like a stylus for instance but it's a phone from Apple not MS but I guess some have forgotten that already. No real keys, so what, don't type and drive at the same time a real keyboard is really so unnecessary. No 3G, the US is so fragmented that it will probably never settle on one cellular standard so companies have to pick and choose who will carry their devices to bring them most customers. For that, blame the FCC for not settling on just one communciation standard like the rest of the world and the tel companies for not keeping up with the rest of the world. No memory expansion slot (SD, MiniSD, MicroSD, etc.) but it comes with 4 or 8GB of user available memory (MS doesn't even come close). These are just a few things to keep in mind. The iPhone is geared towards the consumer not the techies but there is a lot of great tech in that phone. It's not for everyone but no phone is. Just my $0.02.

[jlp]

...
4 - No stylus does suck. ... I have to believe that some company will sell an iPhone case with a stylus that works on the iPhone, and some sort of touch-screen keyboard software for it. I'm willing to bet within 6 months we'll see this.

You can bet that major hardware developers have engineering samples right now in their hand and we'll see dozens of accessories at the time of launch

Will Apple dominate the mobile phone, or even the smartPhone markets? No. Microsoft has deep products, a lot of experience here, and very-well accepted devices (finally... WM 5.0 was the first really good mobile phone OS from MSFT imho). Plus HTC and some other markers are fast, nimble and smart.

I bet they will faster than MS and hardware makers can react!!

Apple has filed 200 patents!!! for the development of the iPhone including its MultiTouch feature.

Just like nobody will ever make a device as easy and intuitive to navigate than on the iPod, competitors will be VERY hard pressed to do anything close to the iPhone in functionalities.

With such Apple will VERY QUICKLY leave everybody bitin' the dust behind Apple's blazing trail.

When the OQO was announced in 2002 I predicted it would be the end of PDAs -needless to add: as we knew them then; IrDA was the only popular and integrated wireless technology in use in PDAs then.

NO major PDA has been announced lately, just about all the development in the last 1-1.5 year has been geared towards phone (PPCPE) and smartphone devices.

This iPhone is another nail in the PDA coffin.

My take for the foreseeable future: an OQO Model 02 (http://www.oqo.com) and an iPhone.

[SteveHoward999]

NO major PDA has been announced lately, just about all the development in the last 1-1.5 year has been geared towards phone (PPCPE) and smartphone devices.


Frankly, I think you are way wrong here. As is everyone else who keeps telling us the PDA is dead.

The PDA is alive and well. It just happens to have grown a phone and a camera, regardless of whether we all want these additions.

[Kris Kumar]

The iPhone is geared towards the consumer not the techies but there is a lot of great tech in that phone.

Well put. 8)

[Kris Kumar]

With such Apple will VERY QUICKLY leave everybody bitin' the dust behind Apple's blazing trail.

As much I like iPhone and as much as I agree with the statement that Apple will lead and innovate in the phone sector, I find it hard to believe that Apple will lead in terms of market share.

Not at the iPhone price. It will have a niche market. Just like BMW or Mercedes.

Lot of people buying the iPods are breaking their banks to get one, I doubt if they will be able to open their wallets and empty out more dimes and penny to upgrade to iPhone.

iPhone will generate a lot of buzz, it will put the "smart phones" to shame, it will have a lot of sales but HTC/Microsoft and Symbian/Nokia will be the ones having the biggest market share.

[jlp]

NO major PDA has been announced lately, just about all the development in the last 1-1.5 year has been geared towards phone (PPCPE) and smartphone devices.


Frankly, I think you are way wrong here. As is everyone else who keeps telling us the PDA is dead.

The PDA is alive and well. It just happens to have grown a phone and a camera, regardless of whether we all want these additions.

Steve,

I was quite clear in my message saying "in 2002 I predicted it would be the end of PDAs -needless to add: as we knew them then" (emphasis added).

Todays PDAs are phones with PDA features: they're sold by phone providers, they have phone sized screens and bodies, etc. There hasn't been any 3.5" even more so 4" devices like the HP4700, Tochiba e8xx, etc. ever made since.

So if you tell me "I think you are way wrong here" just to add virtually exactly what I said a bit further in my post "all the development ... has been geared towards phone (PPCPE) and smartphone devices." I'm afraid we can say your post becomes both wrong and void.

[jlp]

With such Apple will VERY QUICKLY leave everybody bitin' the dust behind Apple's blazing trail.

....

Lot of people buying the iPods are breaking their banks to get one, I doubt if they will be able to open their wallets and empty out more dimes and penny to upgrade to iPhone.

...

Thank you ebay for existing 8)

The sheer number of iPod mini, nano and shuffles are proof enough that 4 or 8 GB is more than enough for the masses (of which we don't belong).

So most of these ipod owners DO own a phone as well and will be more than willing to resell their devices faster than you can blink and jump on an ultra cool, trendy, simple, capable and brand new, never seen before paradigm and functionality set:

Two in one (ipod and phone) internet capable, with yahoo mail, multiTouch capability, google, no tool/gimmick (no stylus), very intuitive, simple, powerful, attractive, trendy, cool, etc. etc. that EVERYBODY will be talking about...

My local newspaper NEVER talked about PPCs, smartphones, etc. but talked about the nano when it came out.

you can bet every single newspaper, magazine, tabloid, tv news, etc. will be talking about the iphone and I wouldn't be surprise if iphone becomes the #1 search word even before the first package hits the shelves...

[jlp]

Needless to say I can safely predict the iPhone will quickly become more trendy and much, MUCH cooler than all the RAZR, Chocolate, STR TRK, Blackberries AND the iPod and what not MULTIPLIED.

8)

Heck I've alway resisted to get an ipod myself: too little extra functions.

However I'm positive I'll get one of the first iPhones when they'll come here... without even using it (I'll probably read reviews before tho).

[djdj]

My local newspaper NEVER talked about PPCs, smartphones, etc. but talked about the nano when it came out.

you can bet every single newspaper, magazine, tabloid, tv news, etc. will be talking about the iphone and I wouldn't be surprise if iphone becomes the #1 search word even before the first package hits the shelves...
That is because the media is biased towards Apple. In their mind Apple can do no wrong, and Microsoft does nothing but. It isn't because Apple's devices are so much better than the competition.

[Jerry Raia]

Not interested in this thing one bit.

[djdj]

As for DJDJ: You cannot even come remotely close to comparing this phone to the Dash. The Dash is a nice device, but let's not kid ourselves... You'd have a much better comparison if you compared the iPhone to a PPC phone, and even then you'd be talking Apples and Oranges (no pun intended!)
The Pocket PC doesn't make a great phone. The Smartphones are better at being phones. The only reason you would compare against a PPC is the touchscreen, but I still don't buy that a touchscreen as the only interface on a phone is a great idea.

I certainly can compare it to my Dash. With fundamental functionality, name something the iPhone does that my Dash doesn't. There isn't anything. They may be implemented differently (touchscreen vs keyboard and d-pad), but my Dash does more than iPhone does, and most functions are more fully implemented in the Dash.

I'm not trying to say that the iPhone is going to be a bad device, in fact, I think it is really slick. But I question how many people will be willing to justify the HUGE premium in price to get an Apple-designed interface that hasn't yet been proven to be a good idea over other options that exist that provide the same functionality for a lot less.

iPod owners may want the phone, but will they want to spend the extra $300 to get phone capability? (comparing iPod nano vs equivalent iPhone) I know that some will, but is it enough for the device to really catch on?

I don't think you'll see much by the way of discounts on the iPhone either. How often does Apple allow its retailers to discount its products? Never. I don't think this will change with a phone.

[Pete Paxton]

Personally I think this thing is gonna sell like hotcakes. But not because it's that much better than the competition. I bought a 1 gig creative zen for less than half the price of a 1 gig nano and I'm not sorry a bit. I admit that the nano is slicker but in the end, my zen accomplishes the same overall result. People will buy for the cool slick effect. Look at the Razor. It sells like crazy but it doesn't do anything that most phones can't do. People want slick and multimedia and the iphone will do that but I currently watch great movies and listen to plenty of music on my Dash. Will the iphone let me do something I am not currently able to do on my Dash (besides looking slick)? I'm a simple cheapskate - but I like it that way :lol:

[Rocco Augusto]

iPod owners may want the phone, but will they want to spend the extra $300 to get phone capability? (comparing iPod nano vs equivalent iPhone) I know that some will, but is it enough for the device to really catch on?

exactly, while this device is nice the only real competitor that Apple will go up against is.... well, Apple. Smartphone do more then store your contacts and let you check free email based services and look at photos. sales are usually driven by businesses that need push email and over the air syncing of information. most businesses could care less if you can get yahoo mail on your phone, play music, watch videos or whether or not you have an innovated touch screen. they care about productivity.

the iPhone is geared more towards the average consumer, which in most cases will already own the iPod or iPod video. now are all of these features that this phone offers really worth paying the extra $300USD for this phone? as I see it, most users will still most likely grab the iPod and a free RAZR from cingular or just the RAZR V3i... which has iTunes built in. take it from someone that sold phones for almost a decade, most stores rarely push phones that cost more than $200. as popular as the RAZR was, there were times when selling the phone was like pulling teeth and it was only $149.99 with a $50 rebate! This phone is almost a months rent for most people!

i do believe Apple will have a nice market share, but just like their current hardware (laptops/desktops) that market share is going to be pretty small

EDIT: i forgot to mention, another HUGE factor that will go against this device is the fact that Cingular will not let you add insurance on any highend device, pda, pocket pc or smartphone. i am almost 100% positive they will not let consumers insure this device either, seeing as how it almost costs as much as a new laptop. right now, the iPhone is $600 with a two year contract which means you will not get another discount on a new handset for 21 months, when you would be eligible for a contract upgrade. if you break your iPhone before the 21 months are up and you want a new one, you have to purchase it at the retail price which is usally a great deal more... how many people do you know would really risk that much money for something that might be a little slick and can easily break, just like any other phone, if you drop it one to many times?

[bsoft]

eh. Ubuntu runs Gnome and Kubuntu runs KDE. The different window managers gives the OS different names to not confuse people even though we all know they are running virtually the same kernel.

With all due respect, you're wrong.

Kubuntu is pre-packaged Ubuntu with KDE. Ubuntu is pre-packaged with Gnome. That being said, you can easily run KDE as your window manager in Ubuntu (sudo apt get _insert_filename_here_) and never once touch Kubuntu. You still get all the functionality, and everything works as advertised, you just get the ability to install it yourself if you don't like Gnome (which I don't).

As for DJDJ: You cannot even come remotely close to comparing this phone to the Dash. The Dash is a nice device, but let's not kid ourselves... You'd have a much better comparison if you compared the iPhone to a PPC phone, and even then you'd be talking Apples and Oranges (no pun intended!)

With all due respect, you're wrong too! Neither KDE nor GNOME are window managers. They are desktop environments. Both happen to come with default window managers (KWin and Metacity, respectively), but you could, for example, use twm with GNOME. Not that you'd want to.

Also note that you use package names with apt-get, not filenames. Installing a package file (e.g. a .deb) is done with dpkg (or, sometimes, other tools), not apt-get.

FYI, the package name for the KDE desktop is "kubuntu-desktop". The Kubuntu project packages KDE for Ubuntu, so in a sense you are using Kubuntu whether or not you installed from Kubuntu media.

Also, "GNOME" is properly written using all uppercase, because it is an acronym.

If you're going to be pedantic, you need to get your terminology and facts straight!

[paulvallen]

There are a huge number of “phone inclusive” devices available nowadays; with various advantages over other devices. On one device, the advantage may be e-mail related; on another, a great camera (relatively speaking) and on another a nice music playing interface or simplicity of synchronising data.
Windows mobile based Smartphones and Pocket PC phones excel at doing several of the above, quite well. This is, with some exceptions, why we continue to buy Windows Mobile devices (I am on my second Smartphone and have had three Windows CE based PDAs). The iphone is yet another mix of capabilities: it is beautifully designed – both outwardly and from a user interface perspective, different enough from the 2-3 basic designs that our devices are based upon and – being Apple – well marketed (and, as usual, dangled in front of the public several months before release).

Of course, Steve Jobs is not aiming this at everybody; he stated that 1% of the market (10,000,000 units per year) would suffice (naturally, this is once Global sales are up and running). Although it is relatively expensive, I’m sure that 5% of the mobile phone buying population could afford this device (although it may be a case of the heart ruling the head). It would probably not find favour in a business environment, but that’s not where it’s being pitched. ipod users are a loyal bunch and, when that device was still new, it was as much about being seen with one as actually using it and I’m convinced that it will be the same for the iphone. Frankly, unless there is some *major* flaw identified with this product, it will easily beat Steve Jobs’ own expectations and will sell like hot cakes.

Pure conjecture, but in the UK, I expect there will be an agreement with a single carrier for at least a year, which will mean lower subsidies. I reckon the subsidised price, for an 18 month contract will be around £200 (US$390).

[onlydarksets]

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/

Now it looks like it's a closed system - no 3rd party apps except those endorsed by Apple. That's one of the things I like so much about the WM platform is that anybody can write a utility for it to fill a gap not anticipated by the big boys.

[Mike Temporale]

Apple has filed 200 patents!!! for the development of the iPhone including its MultiTouch feature.

:lol: Well, there are thousands of patents filed everyday. Just becuase they filed 200 on this device, doesn't mean that there is actually 200 cool new innovations. ;)

[Mike Temporale]

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/

Now it looks like it's a closed system - no 3rd party apps except those endorsed by Apple. That's one of the things I like so much about the WM platform is that anybody can write a utility for it to fill a gap not anticipated by the big boys.

8O Not good, not good at all.

[onlydarksets]

Apple has filed 200 patents!!! for the development of the iPhone including its MultiTouch feature.

:lol: Well, there are thousands of patents filed everyday. Just becuase they filed 200 on this device, doesn't mean that there is actually 200 cool new innovations. ;)

Not to mention it is unlikely that they will actually GET all 200 patents.

[Mike Temporale]

So, after reading and listening to everyone go on about this, I've got some thoughts on where this phone will end up.

As many have pointed out, the phone is very nice to look at - no question. But it won't kill Windows Mobile or RIM or Symbian. There are a lot of missing features on this phone. There's little chance of the enterprise going after this device. There's no always on email solution, no line of business solutions (and it looks like it won't be easy to add them).

What concerns me the most is that apple has yet to mention anything about the processor or RAM on the device. These are key things that can be used to gauge the power of the device. OSX on the desktop needs a very powerful CPU that would suck your phones battery dry in seconds. Most people are in aggreement that it's not running OSX as we know it. Instead it's running a scaled down version of OSX - kind of like Windows Mobile. :wink:

It's a great looking phone and the media is eating it up. Apple's always been good at that. That doesn't mean it's going to be a good device. Until more is known, I think it's safe to say - no thanks.

[BigCanoe]

How about an update to the ugly WM user interface? The interface on the iPhone makes my Q look like its running some old Visual Basic 3 application.

[Lurk]

My first and overall thoughts are that it really is a slick device. My second thoughts came to cost. You don't get all those extra little things for free.

Keyboard? I heard Steve complain about those inflexible plastic keyboards over and over. You can't add keys when you need them. I also noticed that you still get one of those inflexible plastic keyboards with the purchase of the Mac. Maybe they aren't all that bad for touch typing. Maybe if they made the screen raise in areas where the buttons should be. (Patent applied for. ;) )

Onscreen keyboard. Happend on the first Pocket PC phone. It had to.

Touch screen. Happened on the first Pocket PC phone (and before that). It had to. But the thing is you couldn't use your finger. Strike that. You could use your finger or the stylus. iPhone just takes the stylus option away. New feature, you don't get a stylus. Saves you the trouble of losing it.

Acts as a music player. Too late. We've already had a thread debating whether you really need to do that on a phone.

Multi-finger gestures. About time, but just an incremental step on touch. Not really a great leap, though no one else seems to have figured it out.

Larger and higher resolution screen. That war continues to be fought. We have some PPC phones that support VGA. The war isn't over.

Touch screen ignores touches. ?? Hopefully not when I don't want it to. But, maybe it is smarter than just dead space on the screen.

The scrolling is nice and visually stunning just like Apple generally does.

Icon based main screen. Didn't we have one of those add-ons for the Palm-Size PC from some little company in the UK? I bought a copy. But, Apple makes it look clean. Another of their strengths.

Selecting contacts instead of dialing. Seen it. Steve talks about all the phones that have only a few contacts and how the iP will have so many. However, on the iP, you have to scroll the list. On the SP, you get to do an incremental search. I like the way the incremental search works and narrows the list for me. iP doesn't narrow the list at all.

And the whole sync thing. I'm disturbed. Steve distinctly talks about iTunes for that. He doesn't talk about the desktop, he talks about an account with iTunes to manage it. No thanks.

Don't get me wrong. It is a beautiful machine and it pushes the envelope. But it does it a a price. It uses some things in a different way that is newer and probably a little better. But, the price hasn't kept the Apple fanatics away from the Mac in the past and it won't stop them now.

What will happen? Same that happened before to DOS PCs. The interface of the competitors will improve to match. Perhaps this is the revival of the PPC phone. It seems on the decline since the proliferation of the Smartphone. That would seem to be clue that keypads are desired over screen realestate.

Perhaps it will mean the merger of the Smartphone and the PPC phone. Maybe more screen realestate and slide out keyboards will catch on. Best of both worlds.

It's an exciting step and it only means that more exciting things are on the way!

[Kirkaiya]

I'm not trying to say that the iPhone is going to be a bad device, in fact, I think it is really slick. But I question how many people will be willing to justify the HUGE premium in price to get an Apple-designed interface that hasn't yet been proven to be a good idea over other options that exist that provide the same functionality for a lot less...

iPod owners may want the phone, but will they want to spend the extra $300 to get phone capability? (comparing iPod nano vs equivalent iPhone) ...


I think that this is partially correct, but that you're missing something - this (the iPhone) is not being sold at a huge premium to the video iPod. And not only that, in addition to getting the "Apple-designed interface", they're getting a larger, higher-resolution screen.

If anything, the iPhone reminds me a bit of an ultraslim Archos portable video-player. I might be completely wrong, but I think that it's no coincidence that Apple starting selling movies on it's iTunes store just months before selling a "phone" with a large, high-resolution display that you just know will have built-in ability to download movies and TV shows and play them (downloading over WiFi, obviously, not EDGE).

Finally - for people who already have video-iPods, you're right, they're not going to upgrade. But if you add the price of a video iPod (~ $300) and a decent smartphone (~ $200) then suddenly it seems like much less of a stretch.

Apple's products command a premium because they're easy to use, and they are perceived to be "cool".


the only real competitor that Apple will go up against is.... well, Apple. Smartphone do more then store your contacts and let you check free email based services and look at photos. sales are usually driven by businesses that need push email and over the air syncing of information. most businesses could care less if you can get yahoo mail on your phone, play music, watch videos or whether or not you have an innovated touch screen. they care about productivity.

While I also partly agree with this, there are some things you're leaving out:

1 - While their only real competitor right now might be themselves, the overall market for portable music and video devices is growing, and the market for smartphones is also growing - so if this gets them a larger piece of that pie, and in fact grows the pie (the market) by driving demand, then it's a winner.

2 - Not all sales of phones and other devices is driven by business needs. The Motorola Razr is a prime example of consumer demand driving sales. And I think quite a few PalmPilots (millions) and Blackberries originally snuck in the back-door of companies via executives who bought them, and then I.T. departments got tasked to support them, and those departments decided, ultimately, to standardize.

That's a steep hill for Apple to climb (getting their devices into the enterprise), but a lot of large companies already support Macs, and if this thing really is running the OSX kernal (e.g., Darwin), then that might bode well for it's being a supported device.

Then again - most senior executives I've worked with end up buying whatever device they want - and once they have one, lower managers have more leverage to get the same thing. Maybe I've just worked in companies with "rebel" executives, I don't know :lol:

Oh - and about the push email thing: if you read the news carefully, it says Yahoo! will be offering free push-email directly to the phone, as in, Blackberry-style (or DirectPush style maybe).

If Yahoo! can do that, I'm betting that somebody else will be offering business-class push-email service as well. And - I absolutely guarantee that some software house will be offering sync of email, contacts and calendar to Outlook 2003/2007. If nobody else offers this, I swear to God I will write it myself, and make a mint selling it. Literally (sadly, I bet somebody has already written a beta of this).

All that being said, I think Apple is probably being realistic in aiming for 1% market share (10 million units). If this thing comes out in June, then by June 2008, I bet they'll do it. And if it does everything well (including good push-email, sync'ing with Outlook, a good stylus/softkeyboard app), it might just be my next phone... I'll see what HTC comes up with by the end of this year :wink:

[onlydarksets]

But it's not a Video iPod - it can't hold your entire music collection. At best it's a Nano with Video (and, obviously, a better screen). That's $250 for the Nano, plus a premium for the video. It's still overpriced, but hopefully Amazon or someone will offer a discount. Not likely, though, since it's Apple.

[Kirkaiya]

At best it's a Nano with Video (and, obviously, a better screen). That's $250 for the Nano, plus a premium for the video.

Oh, come on now, even you can't honestly believe that the iPhone, which is a Phone, PDA, has WiFi, and EDGE data connection, push-email from Yahoo, a full-fledged browser, etc., is "at best... a Nano with Video". And my wife's Nano has only 2 GB, not 8 (as the one iPhone model has).

So I would counter by saying that, at the [i]least, it's an iPod Nano, with a better, larger, screen, PLUS a very attractive mobile phone, PLUS it's (potentially) a Blackberry (the iPhone comes with free push-email from Yahoo).

The storage (at 8 GB) is between the Nano and the harddrive versions of the iPod. So what's the price of an iPod Nano, plus a premium for 4x the storage, plus the premium for video, PLUS the cost of a smartphone that supports push email. For ten million people, I'm willing to bet that cost will be equal to the price of the iPhone.

[onlydarksets]

At best it's a Nano with Video (and, obviously, a better screen). That's $250 for the Nano, plus a premium for the video.

Oh, come on now, even you can't honestly believe that the iPhone, which is a Phone, PDA, has WiFi, and EDGE data connection, push-email from Yahoo, a full-fledged browser, etc., is "at best... a Nano with Video". And my wife's Nano has only 2 GB, not 8 (as the one iPhone model has).

So I would counter by saying that, at the [i]least, it's an iPod Nano, with a better, larger, screen, PLUS a very attractive mobile phone, PLUS it's (potentially) a Blackberry (the iPhone comes with free push-email from Yahoo).

The storage (at 8 GB) is between the Nano and the harddrive versions of the iPod. So what's the price of an iPod Nano, plus a premium for 4x the storage, plus the premium for video, PLUS the cost of a smartphone that supports push email. For ten million people, I'm willing to bet that cost will be equal to the price of the iPhone.

Huh? I never said that it was. You completely missed my point, so I'll try again.

First, you cannot argue that the iPhone is going to be the equivalent to a Video iPod + Smartphone. It will be, at best, comparable to a Nano + Smarphone. Most people who have the iPod Video have it because they want their entire music collection with them. That requires 30GB+, not 8GB.

Second, the Nano comes with 8GB for $249. Thus, the storage is EXACTLY the same as the biggest Nano.

So, what I said is correct - it is much more appropriate the music/video functionality of the iPhone to a Nano with video functionality. It will never be a replacement for the iPod Video because it doesn't have the storage space.

[SteveHoward999]

So if you tell me "I think you are way wrong here" just to add virtually exactly what I said a bit further in my post "all the development ... has been geared towards phone (PPCPE) and smartphone devices." I'm afraid we can say your post becomes both wrong and void.

You also said:-

This iPhone is another nail in the PDA coffin.

Which is a continuation of your argument that the PDA is dying. So make up your mind. Either it's dying or it isn't. It can't be both.

My point is that there are people who don't want to admit that PDAs that are phones too, or phones that are PDAs too are still PDAs. It's still not clear to me which camp you are trying to be in. Sounds like you want to keep a foot in each ...

[Macguy59]

I want the iPhone!

TRAITOR! :twisted:

if the iPhone was less expensive and actually had some buttons so i constantly would not be cleaning face/finger oil off of it, i might get it..

One of things mentioned in the long product development was trying several different types of glass/coating for the screen specifically mentioning that this was the best at handling finger prints/grease. FWIW

[Kirkaiya]

Huh? I never said that it was. You completely missed my point, so I'll try again.

First, you cannot argue that the iPhone is going to be the equivalent to a Video iPod + Smartphone. It will be, at best, comparable to a Nano + Smarphone. Most people who have the iPod Video have it because they want their entire music collection with them. That requires 30GB+, not 8GB.

Second, the Nano comes with 8GB for $249. Thus, the storage is EXACTLY the same as the biggest Nano.

So, what I said is correct - it is much more appropriate the music/video functionality of the iPhone to a Nano with video functionality. It will never be a replacement for the iPod Video because it doesn't have the storage space.

Well, given that I'm not normally considered to be a stupid or intellectually sub-par person, if I completely missed your point, I rather think it wasn't uber-clear the first time out.

I understand what your point is now - I just disagree with it. I think it's not really a fair comparison to simply say that the iPhone is merely the sum of an iPod Nano plus video plus a phone.

The whole, in this case, I believe is more than the sum of the parts. Yes, you an find an iPod Nano for $249 (I didn't know they had an 8GB model out already - just a year ago, the 2 GB model was "new"). You also keep saying that people who buy the video-ipod do so in order to keep their "entire music collections" with them. I only know two people personally with video iPods, and neither uses it for that (one is a 12 year old girl who watches some show called "Hannah Montana" on her iPod, and puts tons of music video clips on it, or something), and the other is a fellow consultant who freely admits he hasn't even put a full gigabyte of music on it.

Maybe they are the anomolies. But then again - people use phones differently than they use iPods. A lot of people with smartphones are used to "syncing" them and charging them nightly - I know I charge my phone every night. And if people are watching TV shows on their iPhone, they're not going to keep their entire library of shows on there - that would be on their PC, and they'd just sync up the latest few episodes to watch (of course, I'm guessing, I don't really know how people will use it).

Finally - it's entirely possible that by June, Apple will bump the internal storage to 12 or 16 GB, or do so later in the year - that definitely would allow *most* casual users to put their entire music collection onto the device (some people really do have 40 GB of music, but numerous surveys have shown consistently that most iPod users that have the 30 and 40-GB models use only a fraction of that storage.

We'll have to wait, I guess, to see if you're right, or if my take on things is right. But I still disagree with comparing it only to a Nano + smartphone... it seems to be almost a palm-top computer with built-in phone and push-email, plus a video-player that integrates with iTunes.

Again - I think the whole is greater than the sum of the seperate devices needed to equal it's functions, and for that, it doesn't strike me as overpriced. I just paid $450 for my first HTC StrTrk in July, which I then ruined by taking it sea-kayaking, and bought another identical one for $400 in October. That's $850 for mobile phones for me, and that didn't seem utterly outrageous to me. So $500 for a combo iPod / Phone / Video Player / PDA / Desktop Web-browser device that's slimmer than many smartphones? Easily worth $500 to me.

[onlydarksets]

I understand what your point is now - I just disagree with it. I think it's not really a fair comparison to simply say that the iPhone is merely the sum of an iPod Nano plus video plus a phone.

Finally - for people who already have video-iPods, you're right, they're not going to upgrade. But if you add the price of a video iPod (~ $300) and a decent smartphone (~ $200) then suddenly it seems like much less of a stretch.

My point is that this is more likely to replace a Nano than a Video iPod, due to the storage size. I agree that the average person doesn't have more than 8GB of music (I've seen the studies as well). However, you have to admit that the average person doesn't have $600 to drop on a new iPhone, either. I also agree that it's more than just an iPod replacement. However, in the context of which iPod it would replace, the size limitation makes it closer to the Nano than the iPod Video.

[Rocco Augusto]

One of things mentioned in the long product development was trying several different types of glass/coating for the screen specifically mentioning that this was the best at handling finger prints/grease. FWIW

being the best at handling grease and finger prints doesnt mean that there will not be any grease and finger prints. im sure all the grease and finger prints will still be there which would mean you would constantly be cleaning the device, even if you are not cleaning that much off ;)

[Macguy59]

One of things mentioned in the long product development was trying several different types of glass/coating for the screen specifically mentioning that this was the best at handling finger prints/grease. FWIW

being the best at handling grease and finger prints doesnt mean that there will not be any grease and finger prints. im sure all the grease and finger prints will still be there which would mean you would constantly be cleaning the device, even if you are not cleaning that much off ;)

True but it would be no different from having to do that now with Moto Q :wink:

[Rocco Augusto]

True but it would be no different from having to do that now with Moto Q :wink:

besides the fact that im not sliding my fingers all across a Motorola Q's screen to use it... :?

[Macguy59]

True but it would be no different from having to do that now with Moto Q :wink:

besides the fact that im not sliding my fingers all across a Motorola Q's screen to use it... :?

I guess if you want to complain about something . . .

Personally I'll wait until I've had the chance to play with one before I form my opinion.

[Rocco Augusto]

i dont have to play with it to know that touching the screen will leave smudges and fingerprints all over it. if it didnt then im sure steve jobs would have made a huge fuss about it while unveiling it. the truth is, if it has a screen and you have to touch it, it will constantly get mucked up, which as i stated before is one of the top ten reasons people return handsets and is one of my biggest annoyances with all phones. it isn't complaining if it is a valid concern

[Jerry Raia]

I'll just go on record as saying in the long run, this thing will fall flat. They will sell some, but not at those prices. Let's not forget it has to be a good phone along with everything else.

[onlydarksets]

it isn't complaining if it is a valid concern

Is that like, "It isn't paranoia if everyone really is out to get you"? ;)

[onlydarksets]

Now it could get interesting:
Cisco sues Apple for trademark infringement (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/10/cisco-sues-apple-for-trademark-infringement-ruh-roh/)

[Rocco Augusto]

it isn't complaining if it is a valid concern

Is that like, "It isn't paranoia if everyone really is out to get you"? ;)

it isnt! wait... what was that noise? they're coming i tell you!

[Tim Williamson]

Now it could get interesting:
Cisco sues Apple for trademark infringement (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/10/cisco-sues-apple-for-trademark-infringement-ruh-roh/)

LOL, I guess the negotiations didn't go as planned... :oops:

[jlp]

...
As many have pointed out, the phone is very nice to look at - no question. But it won't kill Windows Mobile or RIM or Symbian. There are a lot of missing features on this phone.

...

What concerns me the most is that apple has yet to mention anything about the processor or RAM on the device. These are key things that can be used to gauge the power of the device. ...

You guys talk about features and specs.

However this is NOT a specs phone, so to speak.

This is a WOWWWWW phone, period.

This thing has a much, MUCH higher wow-factor than any other device I've seen in my 28 years of computing*, and I've seen many. And that includes the OQO Model 01 when it was announced and even the Model 02 recently introduced (this one not by much tho).

The ipods are not "specs" mp3 players. And Apple understands it well. They're not pushing the GB capacity but rather the number of songs they can store. It's mentionned in the specs page, mainly for the tech savvy people.

XYZ GB says nothing to Joe Average, while 10,000 songs is meanigful to everybody.

Same here. It's the "wow, coooool, yeah and awesome" that will mostly sell this thing, a lot more than to most: cryptic acronyms like CPU, GB, MHz, etc.

Reminds me much of the Newton as I think of it. Not its look or functionalities, but the wow factor.

And since Jobs is behind the iPhone, it will not be "Steved" like the Newton was...


*=needless to say that includes phones, pdas, notebooks, etc. as they are all computers in its broader meaning.

[alese]

You guys talk about features and specs.

However this is NOT a specs phone, so to speak.

This is a WOWWWWW phone, period.

This thing has a much, MUCH higher wow-factor than any other device I've seen in my 28 years of computing*, and I've seen many. And that includes the OQO Model 01 when it was announced and even the Model 02 recently introduced (this one not by much tho).

The ipods are not "specs" mp3 players. And Apple understands it well. They're not pushing the GB capacity but rather the number of songs they can store. It's mentionned in the specs page, mainly for the tech savvy people.

XYZ GB says nothing to Joe Average, while 10,000 songs is meanigful to everybody.

Same here. It's the "wow, coooool, yeah and awesome" that will mostly sell this thing, a lot more than to most: cryptic acronyms like CPU, GB, MHz, etc.



Funny I was just thinking about some other company that wasn't into acronyms and tech speech when it came to their products.
They also talked about number of contacts and appointments you can save to the devices memory not about actual memory and they talked a lot about simplicity, UI and what users want (not multimedia and color)...
I'm not saying Apple is exactly like Palm, it's just that such talk is usually because they can't really brag with MHz and MB.

[paulvallen]

Specs alone don’t really tell this device’s story. Spec-wise, it’s not a leap forward, not even a toe forward, because everything that it will do can already be done on existing devices. Where it excels is ONLY in its looks and its user-interface. It is extremely good looking (I think most people agree on that), with a high-res display and a fairly innovative touch-screen (which should also make it easy to use). For those that can afford it, that’s enough.

We can debate all we want (and, let’s face it, debate is fun) but, to my mind, this is all it needs to succeed…

[Mike Temporale]

You guys talk about features and specs.

However this is NOT a specs phone, so to speak.

This is a WOWWWWW phone, period.

I never said it wasn't impressive. In fact, I've commented on the screen and overall looks many times.

However, specs is a big concern. How many of you have complaing about how slow your MPx220, SMT5600, SP5, or 2125 is? Looks and wow factor is one thing, but responsivness is another and IMHO it's far more important. A slow or power hungry processor could drian your battery faster than the Q. Who care's how good it looks if you can't get through a day of use?

Another good example is RAM. How many of you have had issues with low memory warnings? The amount of physical RAM on this device is a big issue. 4 GB storage is good, but if it has 8, 16, or 32MB of RAM, then I think you're going to be very dissappointed.

There are just too many unknown factors to make a call on this device at this time.

[louden]

Competition - Good for customers.

Let's now hope we can see smartphones/ppc phones with as sexy a screen.

With regards to input - I need to try it out. My gut says thumb typing on the screen will be way too difficult I've got some pretty wide thumbs. I'm afraid the iPhone would discriminate against me!

Lack of 3G, Exchange sync is a killer shortcoming. I'll predict that MS or partners can adopt a bigger screen and better browsing experience faster than Apple can build in real email sync.

MS needs to do this, or it may start to face erosion in the mail server market, as well as browser, os, ...

[thegasguru]

Not interested in this thing one bit.

Bwaaahahaha!!

Dude...you weren't interested in the Blackjack one bit either when it first came out! :D :D

[Jerry Raia]

Yeah this is different! Ask anyone how I feel about "music phones"! :wink:

[Dyvim]

Spec-wise, it’s not a leap forward, not even a toe forward, because everything that it will do can already be done on existing devices. Where it excels is ONLY in its looks and its user-interface.

Ah, but for most consumers (i.e. not geeks like us) user-interface is EVERYTHING. I assume you've used a smartphone or perhaps even a pocket pc phone to send e-mail or text messages or surf the web or listen to music before. The user experience stinks! It's way too complicated and frankly it's a pain in the butt. Don't get me wrong, I love Windows Mobile, but it's a pain to do almost anything on it. If this thing is really as easy and intuitive to use as it appeared in the demo, I think it represents a major step forward in consumer-friendly electronics. I don't think I'll buy one, but I can't wait to play around with one in an Apple store in June.

[Dyvim]

Another good example is RAM. How many of you have had issues with low memory warnings?

Probably most everyone with a Windows Mobile device has seen those warnings at some time or other. But that's exactly the point- that's Microsoft and Windows Mobile. I bet users won't ever see anything like that on an iPhone (they'll just get the frowny face icon when the thing dies). One major advantage of a closed or mostly closed system is not having to worry about a zillion 3rd party developers writing shoddy code that leaks memory and burns down your battery.

[Lurk]

The other major advantage is a dearth of applications and choices.

Any color you want, as long as it's Apple.

[Rocco Augusto]

im surprised at how much attention this device has received from the media and im even more surprised at how such enthusiasm for this device, around my office at least, has turned into a weird sort of disgust.

everyone in my office that was all "oh my god! this device is the best thing in the world" has recently turned into "there is no way im paying $600 dollar for a phone when i have an iPod and a Macbook". another thing that has surprised me was that even the most diehard Apple fans in my office were a bit disgusted with the way Steve Jobs presented the device as far as trashing the competitors and non competitors such as the Sony PSP. one person I was talking too pointed out that it seemed kind of cheap and very "poor sportsman's like" which is something that has always turned me off from Apple as a company and I'm just amazed to see my same reaction to any Steve Jobs keynote starting to rub off onto their most vigilant fans. :?

[subzerohf]

...another thing that has surprised me was that even the most diehard Apple fans in my office were a bit disgusted with the way Steve Jobs presented the device as far as trashing the competitors and non competitors such as the Sony PSP....

Sort of like "you are either with us or against us" ? :roll:

[Kris Kumar]

One major advantage of a closed or mostly closed system is not having to worry about a zillion 3rd party developers writing shoddy code that leaks memory and burns down your battery.

Good point.

[Kris Kumar]

While I feel that the Apple has a lot of offer. And that this iPhone will be a learning experience for the others in the industry.

Here is why I don't like the iPhone
- This thing doesn't have a removable battery. :?
- It is not enterprise friendly - I can play music watch video but no support (as of now) for direct Exchange email, contacts, calendar. No enterprise apps.
- iTunes is the conduit, which I hate
- No expansion slot
- Can I put this device in my pocket like the Q/BJ/Dash? I am guessing no.
- No extensibility, no third party software; GPS navigation? Reader? RSS Readers?
- All of the above + the $500/$600 price tag

[Jerry Raia]

I think this could be another Newton for Apple in a way.

[Kris Kumar]

I think this could be another Newton for Apple in a way.

I agree that the iPhone and Newton have the same genes when it comes to limitations. But Apple has come a long way since the iPod revolution.

If RAZR can sell millions, so can this iPhone based on its looks and cool interface. Not everyone is looking for a smart phone.

The iPhone is the BMW version of the (T-Mobile) Sidekick.

[alese]

...
If RAZR can sell millions, so can this iPhone based on its looks and cool interface. Not everyone is looking for a smart phone.
...

Well, the RAZR didn't cost $600 even when it was new and without contract, iPone costs $600 with 2 year contract, so it's "normal" price would have to be somewhere around $800...
Yes RAZR sold on good looks, but I'm pretty sure it helped that it was/is really cheap if you buy it with a contract.

[Rocco Augusto]

Well, the RAZR didn't cost $600 even when it was new and without contract, iPone costs $600 with 2 year contract, so it's "normal" price would have to be somewhere around $800...
Yes RAZR sold on good looks, but I'm pretty sure it helped that it was/is really cheap if you buy it with a contract.

Sadly the RAZR did cost a good $500-$600 when it first came out... except we couldn't sell one to save our life. We had one that sat in our inventory for almost 5 months until the first price cut came and the phone dropped down to $300. I'm sure Apple is planning on taking a page from the Motorola handbook by playing the same cards.

Here is how the whole iPhone story will go:

Make a phone that no one can afford, create contravery by stealing the name of another companys product (iPhone/Cisco.... a lawsuit gets you air time and therefore gets you in the heads of consumers), get/pay a bunch of news stations to highlight the story (not saying they did but companies have been known to do that in the past), get a few sitcoms to have their characters take it out and make a phone call (like Motorola did with both One Tree Hill and Bones) and then once the phone becomes a household name... drop the price and make billions. Its a plan that would make Dr. Evil proud.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8578/augusto20060728dreviloo1.jpg

[alese]

Sadly the RAZR did cost a good $500-$600 when it first came out... except we couldn't sell one to save our life. We had one that sat in our inventory for almost 5 months until the first price cut came and the phone dropped down to $300. I'm sure Apple is planning on taking a page from the Motorola handbook by playing the same cards.

Here is how the whole iPhone story will go:

Make a phone that no one can afford, create contravery by stealing the name of another companys product (iPhone/Cisco.... a lawsuit gets you air time and therefore gets you in the heads of consumers), get/pay a bunch of news stations to highlight the story (not saying they did but companies have been known to do that in the past), get a few sitcoms to have their characters take it out and make a phone call (like Motorola did with both One Tree Hill and Bones) and then once the phone becomes a household name... drop the price and make billions. Its a plan that would make Dr. Evil proud.


Nice plan, I just don't think Apple is prepared to drop the price before the launch in order to sell the device.
Yes I know everybody is saying it's going to sell like hotcakes even at that price, but I really doubt that. It's going to sell well (HTC Universal also sold well at almost $1000) but not in millions as people expect...
If and when the price drops to something like below $300 then it will sell well, but I don't think Apple will make much (if any) money of it.

[juni]

...and if you want to have the "look", you can always do this:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/anders.ruohio/iphonev2standard.png

(I made two versions of the homescreen, one for facade and fizztraveller and and another one which only uses free plugins - that is the one in the image). :)

You can get it from my site (http://www.juniskins.com) - got to MS Smartphone homescreens and select iPhoneV2 - both versions are in the zip file :).

[Kris Kumar]

...and if you want to have the "look", you can always do this:

juni, awesome work.

I didn't like Apple's clean look home screen, I prefer to see my calendar and email count.

Anyway, how did you tweak the icon bar (I think that is what it is called? the one with radio and battery strength) at the top to be like the iPhone's? I thought that the icon bar was fixed?

[juni]

Using smartmonitor :). You can always use the facade version:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/anders.ruohio/iphonev2facade.png

:)

[Kris Kumar]

Yes I know everybody is saying it's going to sell like hotcakes even at that price, but I really doubt that.

I agree. I also doubt the sales to be high. And Apple is realistic about it. They are aiming at only 1% of the market by 2008. Long time.

But the media is going to give them free publicity. HTC Universal never got the attention from anyone beyond the geeks. Apple has already (six months ahead) made the iPhone the talk of the town.

I agree with Rocco, the lawsuit is an intentional publicity stunt. They will change the name to Apple Phone or something.

[alese]

...
But the media is going to give them free publicity. HTC Universal never got the attention from anyone beyond the geeks. Apple has already (six months ahead) made the iPhone the talk of the town.

I agree with Rocco, the lawsuit is an intentional publicity stunt. They will change the name to Apple Phone or something.
...

No argument here. Apple allways excelled in marketing and this is no exception. I would even say that they are trying even more than usuall, since they are entering a very competitive and quite mature market.

[onlydarksets]

Yes I know everybody is saying it's going to sell like hotcakes even at that price, but I really doubt that.

I agree. I also doubt the sales to be high. And Apple is realistic about it. They are aiming at only 1% of the market by 2008. Long time.

Apple's math skills are laughable. Jobs uses the total worldwide number of phones to claim that a high total volume requires only a trivial percent. 1% is nothing, right?

The problem is that the iPhone is limited to Cingular, and Cingular only has 60 million customers. 10 million phones is, thus, 17% market share (in terms of customers). That's assuming that Cingular sells 60 million phones EVERY YEAR, which is doubtful.

So Apple says, "1% is all we're talking about", but the reality is that they would need to capture 10-20 times that percentage to meet their sales goals, unless they roll out to other networks. They may do that, but they'll probably up their estimates when they do.

[strangeseraph]

In terms of the general non-techie public I think Apple has got its fruit salad tossed and on the table ready to serve.

Take me for example. I just joined the forum this morning. Why? I read this thread and thought this forum might be about PDAs, palms and other phones like that, and might get some Apple iPhone talk. But it looks like this is a forum for Microsoft phones only? :/

Here's your chance to point me other non-iPhone type phones that might be better for me! I like music, email, chat, movies and internet, I have an old Nokia phone on a pay as you go Telus setup that could probably be left to die out, I have an iPod shuffle that is starting to die out, and I need to replace both. Much of my life is composed of the internet too, so that would be a plus!

I guess I really just like how Apple has gone into my brain and picked what I wanted and put it into a phone. Though we dont' have a Cingular store in Canada, so it would probably end up being with Rogers (which sucks!)

My only concern with this phone is that it probably won't be very good for people who are visually impaired and use sequences of button presses to navigate their phones more than the actual menus. But I think there are specially made phones for them anyway? I wonder if the iPhone has its disability software included...Or an attachment of some kind for a keyboard...

:roll:

[Rocco Augusto]

Using smartmonitor :). You can always use the facade version:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/anders.ruohio/iphonev2facade.png

:)

if there was a landscape version, i would be all over this homescreen ;)

[SteveHoward999]

But it looks like this is a forum for Microsoft phones only? :/

Yes, in this instance, Smart Phone means phones running Microsoft Windows Mobile.

I like music, email, chat, movies and internet, I have an old Nokia phone on a pay as you go Telus setup that could probably be left to die out, I have an iPod shuffle that is starting to die out, and I need to replace both. Much of my life is composed of the internet too, so that would be a plus!

Well, if you want to look at non MS alternatives, one to consider might be the Nokia E62 - or E61 if you have more cash and need Wi-Fi. If that's too much phone for you, there are loads of other 'smart' phones that can do pretty much anything any other PDA-type device can do. That includes movies, music, internet, chat, email, RSS feeds and a whole lot more. I've not seen a better mobile browser than the Nokia browser that comes with the E62!


I guess I really just like how Apple has gone into my brain and picked what I wanted and put it into a phone.

Don't be fooled into thinking that there is anything particularly original on the iPhone. Whilst it looks cool and ahs the Apple name, it's pffering no functionality that has not been available for years on other PDAs and phones.

I wonder if the iPhone has its disability software included...Or an attachment of some kind for a keyboard...

I'd be surprised if there is no support for an external keyboard, but with a completely flat screen and no buttons, the only standard disability options are likely to be text to speech and voice control - both already available on many (most?) other modern devices.

[jlp]

...

The problem is that the iPhone is limited to Cingular, and Cingular only has 60 million customers. 10 million phones is, thus, 17% market share (in terms of customers). That's assuming that Cingular sells 60 million phones EVERY YEAR, which is doubtful.

...

No the problem is you simply forgot that Apple says they will introduce the iPhone in Europe this fall...

[onlydarksets]

...

The problem is that the iPhone is limited to Cingular, and Cingular only has 60 million customers. 10 million phones is, thus, 17% market share (in terms of customers). That's assuming that Cingular sells 60 million phones EVERY YEAR, which is doubtful.

...

No the problem is you simply forgot that Apple says they will introduce the iPhone in Europe this fall...

Wow, that sounds really familiar. I wonder who else might have said that they were going to roll out to other networks? Oh, yeah, that was me! And I said it in the same post you quoted!

So Apple says, "1% is all we're talking about", but the reality is that they would need to capture 10-20 times that percentage to meet their sales goals, unless they roll out to other networks. They may do that, but they'll probably up their estimates when they do.

It doesn't change the fact that Jobs is using what appear to be total worldwide sales to convince people that 10 million units is "just 1%". Just watch - it ain't gonna happen.

[jlp]

While I feel that the Apple has a lot of offer. And that this iPhone will be a learning experience for the others in the industry.

Here is why I don't like the iPhone:

It amazes me how people dismiss the iPhone with hypothetical arguments while it's SIX MONTHS FROM RELEASE!!!


- This thing doesn't have a removable battery. :?

This argument is overrated.

I bought a 2nd battery for my Moto MPx-220 that I never used.

Most of the time I recharge my phone every night for 2 important reasons:
1) I don't want to get in the middle of an important conversation and get cut out because the battery I had used for a few days without recharging ran out of juice.
2) and more important: Battery manufacturers have always recommanded to top the charge of Li-Ion cells


- It is not enterprise friendly - I can play music watch video but no support (as of now) for direct Exchange email, contacts, calendar. No enterprise apps.
- iTunes is the conduit, which I hate

"as of now" is the key element in your message that makes those 2 points useless... for now :P.

- No expansion slot

That's a valid argument, just write Apple about it. AND while you're at it request a standard SD slot, NOT those crappy sub-standard ones like miniSD and microSD that have too many cons for virtually no pro!!!

- Can I put this device in my pocket like the Q/BJ/Dash? I am guessing no.

Why not?? To activate the device you have to pass your finger on the screen from top to bottom, something that can't be done in your pocket.

- No extensibility, no third party software; GPS navigation? Reader? RSS Readers?

Again the device is 6 months form release, this WILL change.

- All of the above + the $500/$600 price tag

Only one argument in your list is really valid, and if enough people request it it might change. As for the price: the reason was given in the Jobs' address: a smartphone plus an ipod cost as much while this device offers much more; the whole is greater than the sum as they are all on one device and offers so many innovations.

[onlydarksets]

While I feel that the Apple has a lot of offer. And that this iPhone will be a learning experience for the others in the industry.

Here is why I don't like the iPhone:

It amazes me how people dismiss the iPhone with hypothetical arguments while it's SIX MONTHS FROM RELEASE!!!
These aren't hypothetical arguments - they are just arguments you don't happen to agree with.


- This thing doesn't have a removable battery. :?

This argument is overrated.

I bought a 2nd battery for my Moto MPx-220 that I never used.

Most of the time I recharge my phone every night for 2 important reasons:
1) I don't want to get in the middle of an important conversation and get cut out because the battery I had used for a few days without recharging ran out of juice.
2) and more important: Battery manufacturers have always recommanded to top the charge of Li-Ion cells

I disagree - I want an extended battery, and that's not possible with this phone. Also, what about a long flight where you don't have access to a charger? Not being able to replace/swap the battery is a needless limitation. It's also not hypothetical ;)

- It is not enterprise friendly - I can play music watch video but no support (as of now) for direct Exchange email, contacts, calendar. No enterprise apps.
- iTunes is the conduit, which I hate

"as of now" is the key element in your message that makes those 2 points useless... for now :P.
But there has been no indication of support for Exchange from Apple, and no third party software. It's not a hypothetical.

- No expansion slot

That's a valid argument, just write Apple about it. AND while you're at it request a standard SD slot, NOT those crappy sub-standard ones like miniSD and microSD that have too many cons for virtually no pro!!!

I agree. However, I don't see Apple adding an expansion slot at this point, given that they are submitting it for FCC approval already. Once it goes to the FCC, that tends to be very close to the final hardware set. Perhaps in the iPhone 2G, but that's not what we're discussing here.

- Can I put this device in my pocket like the Q/BJ/Dash? I am guessing no.

Why not?? To activate the device you have to pass your finger on the screen from top to bottom, something that can't be done in your pocket.

Yeah, I'm not sure why this would be anymore of a concern than the Q/BJ/Dash, unless the "200+ patents" somehow prevent you from using a screen protector. If you can't put one on, then it would be an issue putting this in your pocket.

- No extensibility, no third party software; GPS navigation? Reader? RSS Readers?

Again the device is 6 months form release, this WILL change.
Do you have a link? Information suggests that Apple does not intend to allow 3rd party apps (http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/). That's not a hypothetical. It could change, as you point out, but, again, it's the current state of the iPhone and there is no reason to believe it is going to change.

- All of the above + the $500/$600 price tag

Only one argument in your list is really valid, and if enough people request it it might change. As for the price: the reason was given in the Jobs' address: a smartphone plus an ipod cost as much while this device offers much more; the whole is greater than the sum as they are all on one device and offers so many innovations.
Kris raised a number of valid concerns. Again, the issue for you is that you disagree, which is fine. But that doesn't make the concerns that many other people have hypothetical. ;)

[onlydarksets]

Stephen Colbert weighs in on the iPhone:
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/01/12/colbert-on-the-iphone/

[Mike Temporale]

- This thing doesn't have a removable battery. :?

This argument is overrated.

Ha! Sure, tell that to any Q user. :lol: Without using the actual iPhone, you have no idea how fast the battery will drain. Just because your ipod lasts a day, doesn't mean a phone will. They are very different.

[WyattEarp]

This is getting better and better. Most of you are challenging each other so much you are either over looking or choose to ignore the bigger picture solely because you don't like Apple software or what you think they stand for from the way some of the posts read. Which is rediculous because Microsoft is not much different.

The iPhone is a lesson in form and function that no WM device has yet to even come close to. You cannot dismiss the technology behind it, old and new all rolled into one device that will work as smoothly as that. Even at the current price you still could not find a device with that much functionality, potential for even more and with that amount of built-in memory for less. Look at the HP iPAQ rx5900 Travel Companion (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/215348-64929-215381-314903-f96-3263043.html) for example, 2GB FlashROM and a price tag of $599.99 unless you go on ebay, pricegrabber or some similar price comparison site. The iPhone 4GB is $499.99 and the 8GB is $599.99, so it's not totally outrageous.

And as for software, it will come just be patient, the first PPC and almost every new OS version was no different. Everyone complained about WM2003/SE software not working on WM5 so they wanted to either downgrade or go back to their older device until software was updated. Now look at what has happened, PPC software has caught up and there are no new PPCs only PPCPEs and SM and some of us are more upset now than before. Accessories, they will proliforate in a matter of time and if the iPhone has the same connector as the iPod there are already extend powerpacks and more available for it. Look at the iPhone for what it is, some great technology and hopefully a better future for all phones "smart" or otherwise. Apple knows what they are doing. It's the consumers who get confused by what they want and what they need. We'll be forced into one direction or another either by Microsoft, Apple or some other company in the end. End of rant.

[Lurk]

And as for software, it will come just be patient

That wasn't the issue. The issue was that it is defined as a closed system and third party apps weren't being allowed. So, if that is the truth, you can be patient until the cows com home and it won't make a difference.

And the terrible non-expandible platic keyboards... Apple ships them for the desktop system, they are built into the iPod. Don't tell me you thought that iPod control interface was expandable?

And a quick look around and you'll notice that since the first Pocket PC phone (without a hard keyboard) quickly evolved into the Smartphone. Look at the number of new devices coming out with keyboards vs those without. I think you'll find that this is an Apple Snow Jobs. People like the keyboard more than the onscreen keyboard.

No, I don't think the smartphone people would complaint about the addition of a touch screen interface, and thay may happen as a result. But the truth is that not very much is actually new and that means it is largely hype.

[jlp]

...
;)

I wanted to quote your message, however it would be much too long with all those embedded quotes.

You don't seem to understand that 6 months is a very long time in the computing field (such modern devices are computers with some specialized functions) and what is said now has 100x the time to change (let's make it 200x as 6 months is close to 200 days).

Some of the reasons for Jobs to announce it so soon are:
1) to get people to talk and build hype
2) to get media coverage
3) to get more press coverage over the Apple/Sisco brand fight (done on purpose; both have MUCH to gain from this)
4) to take advantage of the wide following of the Apple expo interest and coverage
5) to let partners work on addons (including I'm sure an extended battery that IS possible: piggyback; would be not much different from a thicker, long capacity one) and software (they might have to get Apple approval; even that might change, nothing is chiseled in granite)
6) to let phone providers outside the US work on adapting their network, like Cingular did
7) most important: to test people reactions to the device hype and sheer interest

This will build so much momentum, (heated) discussions and let them adjust their plans as needed.

You should know that what is true today has a good chance to be very different tomorrow, let alone in close to 200 tomorrows!!!!

So YES all/most your fears are HYPOTHETICAL for all these very reasons!!

[onlydarksets]

I want to make sure I understand your argument. You are saying that, because some people are concerned about the way things exist today, those concerns are hypothetical because the current state of the device could change? And that your argument that it might change is not hypothetical, even though there is no actual information suggesting it will change?

If you had any evidence that Apple was planning on adding an expansion slot, allowing the battery to be changed, or adding 3G support, then I would agree that it's premature to say something is a problem. However, there isn't any.

You don't seem to understand that 6 months is a very long time in the computing field (such modern devices are computers with some specialized functions) and what is said now has 100x the time to change.
I obviously understand this, and, as hopefully you are aware, this simply does not apply when it comes to the FCC. It's not a matter of technology advancing - it's a matter of governmental bureaucracy. Once it gets submitted for approval, you can't go around changing the hardware as you please. I have no doubts that Apple has the ability to add an expansion slot, etc. However, they have chosen not to, and, once they submit it to the FCC, their ability to make changes is pretty limited.

[onlydarksets]

All that said, I hope Apple makes these changes. I just don't see it as happening before it goes out to Cingular, given their rollout schedule. Still, if I switch back to Cingular, I would consider the phone.

[jlp]

You can read this interesting TIME Magazine article (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1575410,00.html) and watch this CBS News report. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=YgW7or1TuFk)

[jlp]

I want to make sure I understand your argument. You are saying that, because some people are concerned about the way things exist today, those concerns are hypothetical because the current state of the device could change? And that your argument that it might change is not hypothetical, even though there is no actual information suggesting it will change?

No my argument was clearly that because things are not written in stone chances exist that things might change, nothing more, nothing less.

If you had any evidence that Apple was planning on adding an expansion slot, allowing the battery to be changed, or adding 3G support, then I would agree that it's premature to say something is a problem. However, there isn't any.

Apparently you didn't read carefully my previous messages as I never said they were planning on adding and expansion slot, I talked about a possible piggyback extended battery and said nothing of 3G.

You don't seem to understand that 6 months is a very long time in the computing field (such modern devices are computers with some specialized functions) and what is said now has 100x the time to change.
I obviously understand this, and, as hopefully you are aware, this simply does not apply when it comes to the FCC. ....

Re-read my previous messages and you'll get it clear I said the lack of expansion slot was a correct argument. My take was on software and accessories like the possible piggyback battery, something that would not need FCC approval.

[onlydarksets]

You can read this interesting TIME Magazine article (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1575410,00.html) and watch this CBS News report. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=YgW7or1TuFk)

The video was interesting, although it makes me wonder if one-handed operation is practical on the iPhone. I guess it will depend on how wide it is and whether you can wrap your thumb around to the front.

This, by the way, is a hypothetical concern - the others were not. ;)

[Lurk]

No my argument was clearly that because things are not written in stone chances exist that things might change, nothing more, nothing less.

The specification of the hardware proposed to be released IS written in stone. In order to change the specification, the process starts over. Another delay.

[WyattEarp]

And as for software, it will come just be patient

That wasn't the issue. The issue was that it is defined as a closed system and third party apps weren't being allowed. So, if that is the truth, you can be patient until the cows com home and it won't make a difference.

It all depends on how you define third party. If mean that any joe blow comapny can write and app for you to purchase then that would mean no. But third part apps will be allowed just not the way everyone is use to. Apple can't didn't think up all this apps on the phone now as it is, so there are thrid parties involved. All apps would have to be done in collaboration with Apple which in some ways is better. But everything has it's pros and cons. WM thrid party apps always have bug in them the writer did not encounter or thought is was minor and relased it anyway and then end-user has to inform the them of the issue and hope for a solution. If a closed system can reduce that kind of situation then I'm all for it but no matter whether it's an open or closed system there will be something to complain about when a new app is added to it.

[Lurk]

Apparently, Apple doesn't release imperfect code. No bugs. That's a major surprise, since even NASA seems to have problems with that and they have the most rigorous system for testing for bugs.

And surprisingly enough, Apple used to give away the development system when they were introducing the Mac. The one with the non-extendible plastic keyboard. This was because they understood the need for applications to launch a new system. I guess that applications aren't necessary any more.

On the other hand, Microsoft used to charge for the Windows SDK. I go all the way back to version 1. It wasn't until Borland licensed the SDK and included it free with their compiler (Windows 3) that Microsoft changed their attitude. In fact, Microsoft learned that if they gave too much software of their own with the OS, the other vendors would refuse to compete and the OS would be a flop. Even selling a top notch application for their own OS makes competiton improbable. How man serious contenders are their for Office on the Windows platform?

So, if Apple decides that they want to limit access to the OS to themselves and their few closest friends, the people buying the system will find little extra incentive to own one.

But it isn't beyond Jobs to decide what the Apple customers need and deny them the ability to add anything else. Woz lost the battle to put a fan in the Apple II to Steve. Steve created a new screw head for the original Mac so you couldn open it and didn't include any expansion slots... and still refused to put a fan in the system.

Meanwhile, the world will learn from Apple as they always have and improve their systems to compete. And we'll still have many vendors creating many more apps for the Smartphone because it's open. Maybe Steve will buy a clue there... maybe it was misunderstood and the sytsem will be open for applications. Maybe.

[onlydarksets]

Engadget has a new article up asking if the iPhone will support DirectPush (http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/01/14/will-the-iphone-support-exchange-direct-push/). The article is horribly misleading (in that the iPhone doesn't "support" Exchange - Exchange supports IMAP/POP3, which the iPhone supports), but it does suggest that it isn't too technically difficult for Apple to do. However, this is strictly hypothetical.

[Mike Temporale]

Engadget has a new article up asking if the iPhone will support DirectPush (http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/01/14/will-the-iphone-support-exchange-direct-push/). The article is horribly misleading (in that the iPhone doesn't "support" Exchange - Exchange supports IMAP/POP3, which the iPhone supports), but it does suggest that it isn't too technically difficult for Apple to do. However, this is strictly hypothetical.

In order to support Direct Push Apple needs to license Direct Push and ActiveSync technology from Microsoft just like Nokia has done. There's been no announcement from Microsoft or Apple in this regard. It's possible, but unlikely at this time.

[onlydarksets]

According to the posting, Zimbra has done it without licensing.

[Mike Temporale]

According to the posting, Zimbra has done it without licensing.

I have my doubts that this is legal. Just because I can reverse engineer something, doesn't mean that there is no license fee involved for using that technology. DCMA took care of that loop hole.

I'm sure that MS is either in talks with Zimbra to license it or they are in talks with them about shutting it down. ;)

[bsoft]

According to the posting, Zimbra has done it without licensing.

I have my doubts that this is legal. Just because I can reverse engineer something, doesn't mean that there is no license fee involved for using that technology. DCMA took care of that loop hole.

I'm sure that MS is either in talks with Zimbra to license it or they are in talks with them about shutting it down. ;)

The DMCA has nothing to do with it. The DMCA's anti-circumvention provisions only apply to copyright enforcement measures (DRM), not to a protocol (e.g. Exchange / OWA / Direct Push).

The concern, if there is one, is about whether or not Microsoft has patents covering the design or implementation of Direct Push.

[onlydarksets]

How's this for sweetening the pot? If it's true, then there goes the "$599 is too much" argument.

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/01/25/atandt-to-give-away-1-5-years-of-service-to-iphone-buyers/

18 months x $40/month comes out to...$720? I'm sure they plan on jacking up the data fee, but still sounds like a decent deal if true.